In the past three decades the high profile golf coach has become a thing.
What was once a behind the scenes job, now often comes with a dash of celebrity and the names of those who work with the game’s best are easily recognisable. But not Denis McDade.
McDade is the very definition of humble, quietly guiding the games of some of Australia’s best players of the past 20 years – including Marc Leishman, Todd Sinnott, Marcus Fraser and Matt Griffin to name a few – while simultaneously helping those who struggle to break 90.
He’s also part owner of Yarra Bend golf course in Melbourne and a passionate advocate for junior golf as we find out in this broad ranging discussion with the Thing About Golf podcast host, Rod Morri.
[Music] hello and welcome to episode 68 of the thing about golf golf Australia Magazine’s Eternal search to uncover the multitude of reasons that people get hooked by and on this crazy game my name’s Rod Murray and I’m pleased you’ve been able to join for this particular episode which will give us a peak into the world of working with worldclass professionals as a coach but perhaps even more importantly it will also give us all a lesson in humility Dennis MCD is one of Australia’s top golf coaches and he’s worked with some of our very best Professionals for the past 20 years but you’d never know what to talk to him because Dennis is the very definition of humble for McDade the appeal is not about the high-profile names or their achievements though he does of course enjoy and rejoice in those but for him it’s about helping people be their best while at the same time doing something worthwhile for the game whether he’s working with Mark lechman ahead of one of the game’s Majors or an anonymous double-digit handicap player on the range at yarab bend the commitment effort and interest is the same he’s been a tireless worker in the area of Junior development and aside from all that he’s one of the game’s nicest people which is of course one prerequisite to being on this show without further Ado let’s hear from Dennis McDade so Dennis MCD the first thing I normally do is thank people for taking the time I’m going to thank you for the treats on the table I should have started interviewing you years ago there’s biscuits there’s cakes there’s all sorts of stuff so thank you for that and thank you for taking the time it is a commitment the thing about golf no problem at all and of course that’s my lovely wife Glenda who’s done that I wouldn’t have thought of that in a million years as a matter of fact I had the I had the nest cafe coffee and the uh and boil the Billy that was about so I’m pretty sure Glenda might have made you a sandwich to take with you my my goodness me well this is fair Fairly sort of special treatment let’s make our jumping off point where it normally is it’s the the clues in the title for the podcast the thing about golf what’s the thing about golf for Dennis McDade well I the thing about golf for me is I would go back to when I first started playing so before I played golf I was a swimmer a competitive swimmer at s Park in in boxill and here that’s here in Melbourne in Melbourne yep and we had an outdoor pool so the start of the season and the end of the season it was freezing so we didn’t um we didn’t we didn’t swim in Winter because there was an outdoor pool and I’d be about 11: we started playing started playing golf and sort of we started at w Park and uh public course like probably a lot of golfers and then dad said we started getting pretty keen on it Dad took it up at the same time he was born in Glasgow but never played golf so just a back up so you had to do something in Wind mhm how did you pick golf if nobody played golf already why did how did the golf do you remember the reason I ask is I feel this is important the origin stories of people and the pathways into the game we’ll talk you do a lot of Junior stuff and we’ll talk about how people it’s pretty important for the game’s health and Futures not to sort of uncover the ways people get into the game and find what ways work so out of The Ether somebody said let’s try golf or it was pretty much like that yeah so I I played dad as I said dad was from Glasgow so he really wasn’t into AFL or rugby he was a he was a soccer man he actually played soccer even when he came to first came to Australia so I played a bit of soccer at school a bit of footy that sort of thing but Dad was really looking for a pastime on the weekend and anything dad did I just did so we started off down at w Park and and we both really seemed to like it I I sort of even though I was hopeless you know I really enjoyed the chall were you of straight away straight away I’ve just gone Yep this is me and maybe in the back of my head I was going if I get good enough at this I have to get in that Bloody swimming pool you know which was pretty to be honest it was a pretty lonely place to be going up and down a down a swimming pool you know when you’re at that age so anyhow we we progressed and we joined wary golf club which is uh which is actually no longer no longer there um and the guy I think he was a farmer um Abbott farmer Abbott he basically decided he wanted his land back and he closed the gate onm so Dad and I joined boxill golf club which was just a couple of kilometers from where we lived and the thing about golf for me was on school holidays I got data dropped me off dad was a construction Foreman data dropped me off there at like 6:30 in the morning or 7:00 in the morning said I’ll pick you up on the way home and I’d be there all day with other Juniors just go around just go round and around playing golf having fun and the thing about boxill golf club and a lot of golf clubs in the area and I think this is why in Australia I think that’s why Australia has punched above its weight so much was as a you know 13-year-old Junior I had full playing rights I for all intents and purposes I was a full member I was allowed to play in competitions or get a handicap playing competitions I could win the Club Championship if I was good enough for example but the main thing was for me I’d gone from swimming up and down a pool by myself to playing golf with all the other Juniors there and laughing and and not having an adult standing over me you and one of the things one of the great things that Dad did was he got me to the stage where I could play unsupervised and to be honest we probably had moments where we got a bit out of control and maybe you know raised an eyebrow too but there was always someone who just pull you aside and just have a chat and just go hey if you sort of want to be in this environment there you know you’re expected some rules and regulations rules and regulations and and I think that’s a great thing about about golf clubs it doesn’t matter whether it’s you know Box Hill or or anywhere else there’s just so many great mentors there and and through the years I’ve been unbelievably fortunate with the people that I’ve come across in golf but that was the thing about golf for me it was just this freedom and and the whole social aspect to it and I started to get better and I enjoyed it and got frustrated like everyone else but but that was it just had an environment where it was just I couldn’t believe that they would allow us to do what they allowed us to do which was great I reckon most golfers would recognize all the ingredients that you’ve mentioned there so the first thing I’m going to ask is you’ve been a lifetime Eng golf for you now since then do we still do that do we still see that are there still School holiday days where certain number of kids get dropped off at 8 and picked up at 5 I think I can only talk about my own experience and and my own experience is that golf clubs are still very open and inclusive I think from a financial point of view I think they’re probably more cognizant of the fact that they need the next generation of of golfers coming through but from from my point of view you know the obviously I’m involved out at yab band and we do everything we can to to to make it you know um you know open and available to Golfers of all levels of ability but I do see it at the private clubs as well so just talking through my own experience at at public facilities and at private facilities I don’t think we have an issue with numbers coming through the gate we have a retention problem and if you want to start breaking down retention you can start talking about what you spoke about more with is this welcoming enough are we catering to these people who don’t have the skills the highly developed skills that gov have played the game for 10 20 30 years or longer and and one of one of the things I’ve spoken to you know at yaban we have a number of coaches we have what we call the gateway to the golf course program and when we sat down and revised it and said okay cast your mind back when you first went to when you first thought about playing golf what image did you have in your head of what you’d be doing and I’d guarantee it would be you’d have some sort of image of yourself walking down the Fairway with your friends playing golf to some standard and then sitting around at the end of the day and and deconstructing around or talking about your husbands or your wives or the football there’s that whole social interaction so everyone who who samples the game if you like will have a different Vision in their in their head of where they want to get to and and as a golf community community of coaches and and clubs and and Facilities I think we need to be aware of all the different people that will walk through your gate and be ready for them pre pandemic we saw we certainly saw Sandy Jamerson will tell you public golf numbers going down the pandemic sort of boosted that but the things you’re talking about are the things we need to grab on to to make sure that lasts because as we start to come out of the pandemic the danger is golf goes back to where it was pre pandemic yarab band is a public cause were you seeing that so at yarab band I think you’ve you’ve been to yab band so when we were there’s a group of 11 unit holders you know Mom and Dad investors and and coaches and and and a couple of touring pros and that sort of thing so when we took it over it was just an 18 hole golf course um that needed some sort of restoration which we’ve kind of done over the last decade but we built a driving range which we’ve had to extend twice already um and we built 36 holes of mini golf so the idea was that from a from the point of view of being able to um the community being able to access golf you know grandparents could take their grandkids to the mini golf um you know if you wanted to just practice your game the rign was there if you wanted to play the course the course was there and and we’ve spent you know a lot of money there over the years and then things like out mini golf we made sure that nine holes of it were wheelchair getting to your question we prior to theic we had double digit growth year year on year and it was almost like the more we upgraded our facility the more we improved it the busier it got and probably through word of mouth so we weren’t having we weren’t experiencing ourselves the downt Turning we actually had some growth as we improved our facilities but I can assure you that that postco it’s it’s gone nuts and and then that brings us back to the whole thing of okay well we’ve got people sampling the game so there’s it’s it’s not like growing the game we’ve got them now how do we retain it’s retention that I think we need to look at what about expanding Beyond just golf as an activity particularly for public golf courses Den is the easiest and the laziest criticism to make of golf and we hear this from those who are anti- golf there are people who are just anti-g golf and the notion of it you it’s a large amount of land reserved for the benefit of the few how do we help to change that perception what can golf do to be better at sharing that public space and this is something that’s in your interest I imagine being part owner of aolf facility it it is interesting out at yarab band as you know we’re in the middle of a national park and there are bike tracks and ovals and netball courts and football ovals but having having said that it’s with all the spare land that is around us at yarab Bend people want to jog through the golf course and it’s kind of like and they get annoyed if a ball goes near them and that’s sort of things so I I think to some extent I call them the Troublesome 3% like if you survey someone there’ always be someone who’s got a cont view right and I don’t think it would matter what you tried to do to convince those people they just wouldn’t have a bar of it but I do look at some of the places where um where that let’s say green space is being contested and there’s not enough Green Space around it it’s like things have been shut down and closed down and redeveloped to the the point where it’s almost the only piece of green space that’s left I I really haven’t got a solution to that problem do you see public golf I’ve always felt public golf is the most important way into golf for most people it was your path into the game do you agree with that is the is the very game itself dependent on a healthy public Golf Complex for one of a better term well there’s no doubt so if I look at the go who came through the V program when when I was involved with it the golfers that came through either started their golf at a public golf course or at a private course that had open doors where you could come and semi for play semi-private boxall would be an example I think Robert alen was at box was yeah Robert alen I think Stuart applebe went there and they both went to Y but they I forged the path there I went from boxill to they’ve done all in their careers but let’s not forget where it all started um so it’s just yeah that I think getting back to what I said before one of one of the reasons golf Australian golf is always punched above its weight is because of accessibility it’s always been possible for juniors and and and teens and adults to access golf if they want to and bringing it back to you know what we spoke about before with you know shared access and and that sort of things it from our point of view at at yarab band like say closing the course on a Sunday to let people walk their dogs through it and that sort of thing makes it really tough for us as a business you know we do 50% of our business pretty much on Saturday Sunday so that’s a tough gig for us maybe some of the um Council owned courses if they’re still running it they might sort of take that hit and and open it up but um but I I haven’t got the answer for that you know for the people that are demanding you know access to these these courses like even like we got my Labrador lying here like I’d love to go for nine holes and have him on the lead cuz I know he’d love to walk around a golf course and have a Sniff and that sort of thing don’t have more of that in Australia is it really is yeah cans work especially like we’re we’re a nation that pick up after our dogs and for the most part absolutely yeah look generally speaking the dog park is the prime example is it the problem is never the dogs it’s the people the problem with the dog no lucky you’re you stay like there he’s a beautiful magnificent specimen that you’ve got as well let’s move away with that of course one of the reasons we’re talking to you Dennis is that your own profile is not particular you’re very well known within golf but not so much outside and yet you’ve had an influence on some of Australian golf’s most impressive careers Mark Lehman is a student of yours run me through some of the other people you worked with and still work with over time and I know that you’re not super comfortable with the notion of blowing your own trumpet but it’s undeniable is it not that you have worked with some of our most successful players over time I’ve been one Australian coach who’s worked with some successful players um so you you mentioned Mark lean before who I still work with we’ve had a relationship for over 20 years I can say very sincerely that he is the same guy that I met all those years ago like all his success um everything he’s achieved in the world of golf hasn’t changed him one iot and you know it has to be said that you know he’s very much a product of his mother and father you know Paul and are just magnificent people yeah so so Mark Marcus Fraser I worked with for a long time another similar sort of personality to lean I would suggest yep terrific fell great player um underrated player so many ones I think played Europe for 16 years yeah um led the Olympics after the first round there was a dam good chance of making having a medal there Y and still a hell of a player um Paul Shen coached Paul through his successful Japanese tour career Japan Open winner yeah you know um which for those who might have that would be one of the most brutally difficult test of golf the Japan open generally in over par makes the US Open of the 80s look like a stroll in the park quite often I have to say Paul got me over to a to a Japan open one year I think more about I’m not quite sure that I believed the setup he was talking about then you see it and I went there and um there were these ladies with rakes on the left hand side of the first I said g what are these ladies doing he says oh they’re just raking the rough so that it grows in such a way that your ball goes to the bottom he just like okay I’m getting an idea of this and I I after three holes I was laughing goes what are you laughing at I say I can’t believe the setup there was a par five that was just like a funnel it kept getting narrow and narrow and narrow just to the point where I think it was about at sort of layup distance was about 12 yard wide and I just going D you want to have your straight shoes on this like but but he was a he was a he was a a really really underrated player we have had quite a few go to we had Brendan Jones on the show just a couple of weeks ago 15 time winner in Japan extra could walk around most golf courses in Australia people wouldn’t know who he was which he very happy about that by the way that’s what a fer brand yeah um so Matt Griffin you still working with Matt playing up in Japan you know very different type of player like their golf DNA these guys are all completely different you know and I coach each one of them each one of them quite differently and then um who else have I coach Brien mcferson who coached Brien through you know the early and mid stages of of his career of course one that the British Amer as a as an am an mind we’ve have him on the podcast here too but that’s maybe an overactive minded someone’s highly highly intelligent fell extraordinarily intelligent um no off switch thinker yeah I’ve had some conversations with him I’ve just gone I’m clearly and I think his dad might have been there once I’m just going I’m the least intelligent guy in this room right now let me tell you so but lovely fell um you got your notebook come through the I’ve got my notebook because I’ve I’ve um and then a couple of the guy you know I’m I’m working at the moment with Todd cinate who’s sort of coming back from coming back from from injury you know extraordinary physical ability Todd Cent Just staggering golf to watch to listen to the sound of that contact is amazing and with the you know with with Todd is he’s a hell of a golfer loves the game like just obsessed with the game like you know like we all are um but with the injury that he had prior sort of coming along one of the things we’ve had to do with him is is totally change the way what practice means to him you know just from a pure volume can’t hit a th000 balls a day Todd you need to well it’s just managing just managing that um and then some other players I’ve worked with um Gareth Patterson from New Zealand uhhuh left-hander left-hander lovely guy Gareth um always just one of Nature’s gentlemen Gareth like even got a bad bone in his body and then um Ash Hall I coached you know pretty much through through his through his career um lost a playoff just a couple of years ago with Jordan Smith and Cameron Smith if I’m not mistaken at the Australian Open was in that threeway Play Lost is a strong way to put that in the playoff that was won by I think spe did he not hold across the the grand Sydney yeah it it is interesting like I I look at you know you look at plays that have made made it that you know plays that you’ve you’ve you know done your best to help them get as good as they can and you got the players that have made it and and the ones that map perhaps didn’t quite get there and and you look at you always reflect on that a coach you have to you know this part of the process of getting better hard to find a better player than Ash Hall if you went out and watched him play golf fig well of course he’s going to be playing on the PGA 2 he’s as good as golf can be played and that’s true what Mark lean has said of Ash that when they played pennet that the only guy he was ever really concerned learned playing against in match play was Ash Ash and I actually said that to Ash and Ash was a bit surprised by that and I said well might be a bit better than you think you are but what’s your theory what’s your theory about that why does Mark Lehman make it an ashall not that ashall hasn’t made it that would be a harsh assessment it’s not easy to get a start on the world’s tours there’s a lot of guys who if they could get a start could make a career but getting a start is extremely difficult one of the things I’ve always said is is I think to win a golf tournament or to get your break you need a little bit of luck as well you can have skill you can have a great team around you and that sort of thing and and I can’t of look at Ash and you just go was there a sliding doors moment and there was when he was playing the web.com or he used to call it the wet.com by as some you’d go there on Monday and Tuesday and just g j a course Super’s done a great job getting this ready you could see the way the course super wanted the course to play and then by the time Thursday morning came it was like d boards again like jez we had six c r but anyway um but he lost two playoffs um pretty much backto back um I can’t remember the year off the top of my head and it was kind of like if he and he finished eventually finished 27th on the 25 and it was like if he wins one of those playoffs secures his PJ tour card maybe we’re having a similar conversation about Ash to what we we we have about Mark you know that there’s definitely those you know seizing seizing your moment and or or having that you know something go your way and just go oh we know in golf tournament you can play your best golf and not win somebody plays better that c Percy wants to play after a all in one Jonathan B what do you do about that in the dark they didn’t even know it had gone in I don’t think until somebody at the Gren said it’s in so so it it it can be something as simple as that sliding doors moment but but the other thing with with say I look at someone like Mark or someone like Marcus Fraser you know when they were getting close to turning pro we had you know we sat down we said right here’s our plan a now if plan a doesn’t work out here’s our plan B if plan C doesn’t work out we got plan it Plan D and hopefully we don’t get to plan e and felici if I talk about him for a moment you know the plan a was because he was coming off a very strong amate career and was clearly ready and clearly competitive you I always say the best way to be to get yourself on tour is to have your game pretty much a tour standard when you go through Q school so he was clearly at that level and went over to the the US and just didn’t play as well as he could so he didn’t get through there came back to Australia got his Aussie card um missed his Asian card um played a couple of events some of the I’m pretty sure they were Von nider tour events back then and won a couple of those and just shot some unbelievable scores you know some very low 60s as a matter of fact I think he might have shot 60 atware Ware he want at woare I remember that and it was extraordinary golf yeah and then he went to and then he up to Korea got his Korean tour card and he had a third in that he did not know that he played the Korean tour yep so he got his card he finished third and the first event and there’s a story that goes with that and and I’ll leave that for Mark to tell you one day he’ll be happy to tell you the story around what happened to his ball on a particular hole when he was um a chance to win the tournament and very much as leash does he said right I’ll show you guys he went out one the next week and then went to the US and started Monday qualifying for the Nationwide so he Nationwide T he had a very strong um awareness of where he wanted to play how he was going to get there and he started Monday qualifying and um you know he got into some events and you know at that stage we had the the the couple of Nationwide events in Australia so he sort of had that little bit of status and then cut a long story short he won the Midlands Tournament um in his second year over there on PGA Tour and really hasn’t looked back so if I look at someone like like Mark he had a very strong purpose to where he wanted to get to and why he wanted to be there and and I think that makes a difference as well in a game that is so where confidence is so important that road that you’ve just outlined for Mark can eat away at confidence and Destroy players and it has done to some very good players is there something about the personality that you’re born with that makes you not impervious but able to better handle it we’ve already spoken about what a l that character leash is how important is that and how much of that can you build in so around let’s call it a set of mental and I don’t know human SLP personal skills that you need to be successful at the highest level I think there are certain number of those that are innate and then there are some that are acquired so I think one of one of Mark’s greatest strengths and it’s something that’s been in common with a lot of the players that I that I’ve coached is they learned to play golf by playing golf mhm you know they interesting they learned to play golf by playing golf and then you know any work that I do so so Mark for example is very much what I’d call a visual external player so he’ll see the shot and the image of that almost creates the swing the setup and the swing and everything else he does so my job to some extent was to to over a period of time give him a better set of mechanics so he could be in that mode and just hit good shots more often and the bad shots not be quite as bad yeah so but he’s one of Mark’s greatest greatest strengths or or i’ call the character traits probably is he lives to compete at the highest level and beat the best plays he can play against you know at the highest level possible so if you put him you know coming down the stretch and he’s in a major against you know the best players in the world that’s where he wants to be he sh and that’s not all players want to do that he’s a big moment player isn’t he cam Smith is very much the same they live for that and you know I consider myself to be you know reasonably competitive but that sort of thing there I’m not 100% sure how i’ be that situation I I never had the opportunity but I I do know I used to in the in the limited playing I did I used to I used to shake when I was holding a Putter and it meant something so but but those guys live for that so I think you know looking at at Mark for example he he had you know a lot of the the traits and a lot of the qualities that you needed he had and then um he got on PJ tour in 2009 and and the start of like end of 2011 still hadn’t won which which I was kind of looking at going yeah we just haven’t quite kept moving forward forward and and he basically got to the stage where it was like yeah I know I’m pretty strong in this area but but I think they might be something missing so he started working with Neil Smith and then early the next year he he won for the first time at The Travelers 61 I think in the last round sat around fors2 around for 3 hours waited for for Charlie Hoffman to finish him he came from a long way back and and could Marcus Fraser win the same weekend in Europe maybe so Marcus Fraser lost in a playoff to Danny Willet in Germany I’m going to say so that was almost the the weekend of my life sleep that weekend vir it all obviously a bit of a mess bit of a mess middle of Monday morning but but that was yeah so so I think you know around the equipment you need you know obviously we can talk golf clubs and clothing and Footwear and ball and that sort of they given aren’t they you can dial those in you can go to a good club fitter and he can build you a set of clubs that you don’t need to change and it’ll produce what you want the things that aren’t programmable in that way are what happens upstairs AR they said he’s thinking what am I doing wrong I’m not winning the truth is like Majors there’s a lot more good players than there are tournaments so it doesn’t matter who’s not winning each week if you’re on the PGA tour in fact if you’re on the web.com tour that or the corn fairy tour that secondary tour Ash Hall is a hell of a player that’s a hell of an achievement you’re in the top couple hundred players on the planet absolutely and yet we view it as not getting the job done oh he hadn’t won been 3 years he hasn’t won yet it’s it’s quite extraordinary isn’t it that and and you know the the the PS will start questioning well how good is he and and um we missed that part on he’s been unsuccessful because he hasn’t you know won on this tour or that tour yet and it’s like wow you you need to get out and watch some golf and just see just how good these guys are and how difficult it is you know you you literally need the planets to align for you yeah and that little bit of luck as you say I suppose we judge don’t we by by the extraordinary Tiger Woods I would consider extraordinary Rory maoy is extraordinary Jordan SP is extraordinary Justin Thomas is extraordinary but they kind of set the Benchmark don’t they there’s there’s a level of golf which I think will cam Smith is in there and I think Mark lean drifts in and out of that that tier of go he’s not always up in that rarified air but he can hold his own there when he gets there there’s something very special about them isn’t there I wonder whether we underplay that the Dustin Johnson’s and the Brooks kkas and what they do is almost Unthinkable for normal humans isn’t it yeah I I I I think so if you look at um you know at the moment there’s you know a lot of pters talking about Rory and and you know their measur terrible a wedge Dennis didn’t you know that shocking wedge so you know I’m I’m not going to sort of you know pass a comment on on you know the way he’s what what he wedge games like at the moment but you know when you you start reeling off the names that you’ve you’ve reeled off there like trying to get on top like trying to get into contention and and um you know deal with any lopsidedness in the drawer and get yourself in there with a Chance on the back n on a Sunday three and a half days leading up to the to the point yeah yeah and it’s you look at the Players Championship this year and and it’s not often that you get a side of the drawer that’s that’s that’s that lopsided um and of course you know they’ll you know the the The Telecast will say well here are significant players that have missed the cut and it’s kind of like notables notables sorry there’s the word notables notables that that have missed the cut but but it is um it is extraordinarily difficult to come out on top in in any one of those works you just need so many things to go to go right and you can do everything to the best of your ability and someone plays better than you but I it is interesting just how often in a MJ you look at a you look at a scoreboard after two rounds or three rounds and you just go yep some major I don’t think this been controversial I always feel like a major is is perhaps given what we just spoke about is perhaps an easier event to win than a regular Tour event say so yeah because if you look at it if you look at a major you know let’s say The Field’s 156 156 how many guys out of that 156 really think they can take on the course and beat those guys coming down the stretch Bob Rotella says 10 yeah he told me once 10 maybe 15 yeah you throw out the other 140 there’s 10 to 15 who genuinely think and can back it up there may be the odd one who thinks they can win who shouldn’t be thinking that but there’s 10 or 15 in reality who can if you’re one of them that puts you in pretty rarified company doesn’t it and then you will get the extraordinary the extraordinary new Talent come through and the planet’s align and they seize their moment and the way they go and now part of the discussion of those 10 to 15 players right that’s Jordan Speed he he was that player I think of this s the most recent generation of just he was clearly a special talent yeah but exactly he holds a bunker shot which he’s done 100 times in his life but he holds a bunker shot that you’re not going to tr you’re not going to hold it in t wins a tournament and the way he goes and and of course I think it’s it’s difficult for for us as as people who haven’t done it like to have you know a wedge or an N or an 8on into the last hole and all you’ve got to do is hit the green and two part you win the tournament it’s just like how hard could it be how hard can it be that’s right Tom Watson had a N9 and the last green at turnbury mhm I was there that Year Matt Goen play with had Matt tell the story a couple of times and he said as soon as Watson h he said that’s too good yeah sound that’s too good that’s a yeah and just that what are you talking 34 ft if it stops rolling 3T earlier it doesn’t get over the who knows what can happen you talk about sliding moment it’s and talk about you know judge of Judge of talent um I was over there that year and uh and Tim wood had a practice round with Tom Watson and um that’s extraordinary isn’t it Tim wood gets to have a practice round with Tom Watson what a game we it was amazing so it was interesting and and I I’ll try to get this story as close as I can and and Tim would be able to correct me again if I get it wrong but basically Tim said hey there’s a um there’s a time slot with with Norman and Watson should I put name down I’ve just gone yes a rical question I think I think more for me I wanted to ask a few questions you know um so anyhow so Tim went and introduced himself to to Tom and then I somewhere along the line we got word that Norman had been delayed somewhere he was coming in by a helicopter or something you know at some stage so that delayed the two time So eventually um and I’m I’m just trying to think of who we played with the Daniel G Daniel actually Daniel GA put his came down as well I’m sure it was Daniel gun so we were standing on the teeth thinking well you know it’s not going to happen and um and Watson walks out and he’s with three other players and I cannot for the life of me remember the three other players so he’d obviously teed up another game Thinking Tim Tim hit off and he looked at Tim and he turned around to the guys and he said sorry I’ve already got a game organized he walked onto the tea and played played 18 holes with with Tim and and Daniel and and I think we’re walking down the second and he said to Tim he said oh where’s the wind coming from this week and seems kind of going I haven’t looked he said you’re playing a British Open you might want to check there was something like that but the thing that really stood out so the reason I bring this story up was I was watching Watson and he’d had the the hip replacement surgery and he looked like he was moving really well but with the putter in his hand I was looking at his putting strike going because I remember him you know in his Youth Of course having been someone who watched so much golf on TV and I’m kind of thinking jeez that putting strike looks a bit shaky and of course he puted the spots of so so I was I was really hoping he was going to win that week but I remember thinking yeah you’re not as clever as you think you are he just he was just holding it from from all postcodes that week so but what a what a player what a week let’s talk about coaching with so how did how did that come to you because for a lot of people like most people you wanted to be a player then the realization that perhaps you’re not going to be a player that’s an extraordinarily Hard Road to even if you’re extraordinarily good your options are to leave the game or to go into coaching some would never consider coaching they would rather out their own teeth without anesthetic then consider coaching people why coaching for you what was the appeal there so for me by the time I started my trainee ship although I told Mom and Dad it was well this is you know me backing up if I don’t make it as a player I was I was I just wanted to be involved in golf that that at some way shape or form I wanted to be involved in golf so that’s true passion isn’t it in tennis I can’t be a player I’ll be a coach I can’t be a coach I’ll you end up like me I’ll write about the game and for me I was I was extremely fortunate so you know Bruce green coached me from oh I’m going to say from about 15 years of age through kind of 1920 and someone who just loved coaching like although he sort of ran raw Melbourne he clearly raw by the way Bruce green a legendary figure in Australian golf Bruce green so I basically said to Bruce I want to turn pro and and he I think at that stage I’d finished I’d finished year 12 I went went to UNI for a year and and like a lot of things in life I suppose I went to UNI and I figured out what I didn’t want to do it helped me figure out what I didn’t want to do and that was you know just as important I did Electronics a course called Electronics computer science because this is how how how long ago this is you had to be able to program computers but the the electronic side of the the course was about repairing computers because you didn’t throw stuff career dentist there’s nothing in about it’s a fact a fact so I did that for have just gone there’s no chance I’m doing this so anyhow um Bruce said mhm he said there might be a position for you here and the first thing he did was he teed up a job for me at Dunlop Slinger and um in in South Melvin um and basically I’m pretty sure from for a boy from boxill that was knock knocking off the rough edges like we might just get you a little bit schooled in in in you know sales service and and and what have you so which which I’m etly grateful for because it was was a great sort of 12 months or so of of my life you know working there and I still working my game and when I from the moment I started my trainee ship with Bruce um we still had there were still caddies at Raw Melbourne then I think they still are but there were a lot of young caddies and Marcus Johnson and I terrific fellow Marcus too um he said well you guys should be um coaching the caddies I was just gone oh can we do that he said yeah you should do that and he said and you should charge them I was going really he said yep so we used to Marcus and I we charged the Cates $2 each a month I think and then we’d get them together and basically try to coach them with no skills but I found um I found at that period of time that I actually quite enjoyed it I quite enjoyed being out I certainly enjoyed the challenge of it I certainly recognized I had no skill it’s just all Bluff what I’d learned from Bruce which is typically what you do and then when I went to keber golf club Bob Spencer was very much the same Bob Bob was I’d have I’d sort of built a relationship with you know with the members and some of them say how do you give lessons and that sort of thing I said to Bob hey do I give lessons he said yes you give lessons you know and he said here’s what you charge and blah blah blah and and that my early experiences of coaching were coming from Bas of absolutely no idea what I was doing but dealing with the members of the club that I got on well with and enjoying that experience and and they kind of knew that was no good but I think they enjoyed that oneon-one time as well and it’s something that’s I’ve always enjoyed with coaching is that that interpersonal relationship it’s different with with every player and it’s interesting you know when you called me up and and um and wanted to get together I I wrote down a list of like the players that I’ve coached over time and I looked at them just gone yep I enjoyed coaching every one of them and there are players over time who I have had the opportunity to coach that I’ve said no to because I kind of know them it’s just like it’s not going to work personality just it’s just not going to work a cadd and a player have to get on a coach and a player I assume have to get on Yeah so basically I I had enjoyed doing that and then one of the other things a bit like that uni story figuring out what I don’t like I’d figured out that I wasn’t a sales I I struggled with the whole irate customer sort of thing and and you know to some extent I think there’s a difference between servicing a membership and being subservient yes and I think sometimes the members kind of got a little bit lost with that and being the son of a short-tempered glaswegian I’ve kind of gone you know what I’ll one day might not be now but I’m going to tell someone what I really think of them and that’s just not it’s going to hurt either my employer or it’s going to hurt me directly so so I kind of figured out that I so that sounds a bit dramatic but I kind of figured out I didn’t want to be in a pro shop like in in like doing all of that stuff yeah there’s ways to coach to sell clubs isn’t there that’s one that’s one sort of way of teaching golf isn’t it that I wouldn’t have seen you as that you would coach to make players better I would think for them to enjoy their Golf and sometimes equipment is part of that that deal you know you get someone sort of Bowl up with a set of golf clubs that’s that’s wrong for them wrong for them that’s that can impede but um so really that that was my experience before I went out and played was that yeah I could see myself doing some coaching I actually quite enjoy it and then when I um when my playing career was if you call it a career was was done it was just like okay I’m actually going to be a coach this is what this is what I want to do and to some extent I again mentors you know once I finished um and and to give Bob Spencer his Jew at Keb Golf Club when I finished my time I’d really struggled with my playing early in the trainee ship and Bob Spencer spent a lot of time with me during the traine ship to the point where I’ve just gone I’ve got to crack at this so you know we talk about coaches who have high high profile and coaches who don’t like Bob gave me some you know along with Bruce gave me some really good instruction and then at the end of my trainee ship Bob Bob said hey what are you going to do he said because I’d like you to be my partner which was an extraordinary um offer and and gesture and one that I was very tempted to take at the time and I said look I’ve got to know I said for me to um for me to have the sort of um drive and and willingness to do whatever do on my life I’ve got to find out whether I’m good enough or not because I I I don’t want to be in my mid-30s or mid-40s is going I should have had a crack so I said to him it’s unbelievable off ofet I’m going to say no and at that time he said you know what he said if that’s where you’re headed he said you probably need someone who’s a little more skilled than me so I went along to Dale Lynch so you know through the years that I was playing you know Dale Lynch was coaching me and somebody that flies under the radar extraordinary we’ll get him one day don’t wor about that yes please yeah and it was an extraordinary coach and again another very strong influence on my coaching career it was just like hey he’s a guy who really seems to enjoy what he’s doing he’s very knowledgeable I get better I feel good after I’ve spent time with him and and my golf games better um so when I when I finished to some extent finished playing I said to D I want to go down the coaching path um and the first my first job you’ll laugh at this my first job was teaching into a net at a pitch and Putt course um with shaan Lynch sha Lynch who ran Australian pitch and Putt so there were two sites there was one in wavely and there was one in Dany Nong I don’t think the Dany Nong one’s there and and sha was very generous and and paid me a small retainer each week and I sort of ran clinics and what have you but with the talk about you know where technology is now I had I had a a camera that took a full size VHS with it you with a TV and I drew lines and and all it all it did when I looked it on video and slowed it I just sort of just highlighted the point that I didn’t know what I was looking at this is interesting but that was sort of like the and but even then even even though I was sort of just starting out was just like right I’m I’m I’m off and running even though you in some ways Dennis you were we talk about a golden year of professional tournament golf in Australia that was a real golden year in the beginning a pioneering moment for coaching was it not the 1980s the ’90s and the the sudden marrying of technology to to we’ve seen it come full circle we’ve had a generation of players with beautiful looking golf swings that cameras can help to produce we’ve come to a trackman era where we’re starting to see again more players with somewhat unorthodox swings but the numbers work you’ve been there from the beginning of that that’s been often think about the CH when we talk technology and golf we always think about golf clubs and golf blls and that’s true that’s a part of it but the coaching technology is off the chart is it not what we’ve learned about everything from the characteristics of the balls and the clubs and how they interact with each other to the human body and how it works how to build a human body the best way to swing a golf club the most efficient way and get the most out of it you’ve been part of something quite remarkable have you not yeah so yeah it’s it’s it’s been an extraordinary time to be a coach and you know as coaches we’re always you know we’re always at least trying to get better and step back from what we’re doing and and what have you but we’ve gone from an era where you know very few coaches had you know a video camera and could really explain what was going on even when they did have one and I’d stick my hand up and say when I first had one that was me you know coming off a base of very little you know coaching ability but it’s been it’s so we talk about that there’s a balance between the art of playing the game and the science of getting better if you like and I think um you know there’s there’s so many Technologies around now that and I’ve probably been probably got caught up in it not caught up in it but but challenged by it is there’s so many different pieces of Technology you know you’ve got Doppler radar like you know trackman and okay well you’ve got all of these all of these different numbers if you like well what are those numbers you know what’s the proper definition of those how do they interact with each other and what are you going to do about about it and then you’ve got things like um you know there’s biomechanical testing equip CEST you’ve got pressure plates and it’s like it’s very it’s been a challenging time to be a coach because you need to be across this consumers demand don’t they denn well they do there’s an expectation yeah there’s an markers coming and say well put me on the track man yeah so and it’s interesting because they see what’s going on so just because you’ve got information that’s not necessarily knowledge right so but it’s it’s a challenging time and I suppose at one stage I bought my own 3D testing equipment was very expensive wow yes and then and then I figured out that you know what it’s probably better to get a biomechanist who’s an expert in analyzing the interaction between all the different body parts and being able to have have a conversation with them because they do it all the time so for example any of that testing equipment if you going to compare one set of data points with another it’s got to be calibrated the same way all of those those um sensors need to be positioned on the body exactly the same way but then like if you look at something like force plates so if we look at Force plates as opposed to pressure plates Force plates will give pressure and they’ll give twist they’ll give torque it’s like then you got to figure out okay which of those data points are important and relative to what we’re doing right now and that’s not easy when you get 20 or 30 data Point spat spat attitud so that’s where I think it goes back to when I was V when I got the job as V assistant coach I sat down with Frank Pike and he said Dennis he said there’s only two things you got to do he said when you get up in the morning think about what you’re going to try to achieve with your athletes that day and he said surround yourself with people who are smarter than you like and and I wasn’t sure whether he was having a crack at me or not whether he thought he got the right man but but that I still reflect back on that so I look at any of the players that I’ve coached who have got better I can’t claim credit for what they’ve done to some extent because they bring a certain amount of of talent to the table in the first place you know and there will people who will argue with that well they would have found their way there anyway and you could go well they might have but it would have taken a hell of a lot bloody longer you know and then every one of those players has had other people who have had an influence on their development be it a b mechanist be it a physical preparation person be it a doctor be it you know a mentor be it a sports py they’ve all had you know it’s it’s very much a a patchwork quilt of of people who have assisted along assisted them along their Journey so it’s I’ve probably got to the stage where I’ve gone right I don’t need to be an expert in analyzing biomechanical data but I’ve got to be able to read it and have a conversation with a biomechanist to some extent on their terms and them them on my go lingo terms and you just have these discussions with with different people cross pollination where you’ve got physical trainers now working with golf when you first started there would have been none of there was a golf pro golf pro taught you how to play golf yeah that’s what they did and now there’s all these other particularly if you’re going to be an elite player there’s a whole bunch of other people require we joke about the modern touring Pro traveling with a team of nutritionists and all of those people have a role to play in the success of that play don’t they yeah and look from a coaching point of view on a coaching development point of view I don’t want this is going to sound ter I’ve got to be careful the way I phrase this I have people that I deal with and they’re not yes men or yes women they’ll just go they’ll challenge what I’m thinking or they’ll challenge why I’m thinking if heading down a certain path and sometimes they right sometimes they going yeah but you you’re missing this this is actually significant how does that fit into where you want to head to so that’s been one of the good things to this day to this day is is as reasonably well developed as what I feel like my coaching skills are I’m still challenged by the people that I that I work with which is which is a terrific thing because that eventually ends up being providing a better result for the players that you’re working with go to The Other Extreme dentist and there are still those who will tell you it’s all nonsense you just got to look at the ball MH what’s the ball doing is that still legitimate where does that fit in so I I can tell you one of the things that that I I think you know the ball is just it’s a it just reacts to how it’s being struck right it is the truth the ball flight is the ultimate truth is so I do I do spend I do spend a lot of time watching my players play watching their flight getting them to hit different shots off different lies you know one of one of the things about about golf is if we look at how I learned to play different shots you know back at Box Hill I had a bag of practice balls um and it took a long time to get a a bag that had you know balls worth hitting and and you’d hit them down and then you’d put the bag down chip to it that sort of thing and um you know depending on the season there were different lies and different grasses to hit off and and that sort of thing as as it was like out in the golf course you know nowadays you know just about everyone practices at a driving range they don’t have to go and pick their balls up they’re hitting you know range balls you know what have you so off a mat off a mat so flat yeah that’s flat so it’s it’s I was talking to one of my um developing Juniors one of the young Juniors I’m developing on the weekend and and we were talking about how to sort of practice bull shaping and I said well you can do your Basics here you know you’ve got the option of hitting off a mat or you’re very fortunate you can go and hit off a grass too and I said so you can start to introduce some of that I said there needs to be an aperture through which you’re hitting the ball and you know eventually we need some depth control as well I said but I can guarantee you here’s what’s going to happen one day you’re going to be coming down the stretch in a tournament you’re going to have to birdy the last to you know make a cut or get through Q school or win a tournament and the ball’s going to be above your feet in the first cut a rough the flags are going to be cut hard right in behind a front trap and you’re going to have to hit a high fade off a lie that make where the ball wants to go left I said let’s make sure that a moment when that moment arrives you’re ready for it or at least as best prepared as you can do it’s not completely forant yeah and we’re probably getting a little bit away from from from technology and talking a little bit more about the art But ultimately you know we use all of that technology to create let’s call it a great Baseline of of mechanics that you can then go and expand upon or adjust a little bit to hit all the different all the different shots it’s the beauty of the game isn’t it Dennis that there are in fact no two shots the same even if you hit a ball drop another ball right your feet and hit that those two shots can never be cu the conditions are never quite exactly the same the LIE is everything is always slightly different in off it’s it’s a constant change isn’t it and so you can’t science it out of existence can you there’s quite a few sort of systems and thought processes about how to break the game down it’s that money ball idea from baseball and we can bring that to golf and there’s no doubt they’ve got Merit what do they miss if anything see I think there’s if just talking techn ology for a moment you can you can definitely see you know using using technology you can see the way different players hit different shots you know so one of the things that I’m pretty big on you know around if you want to call it collecting data or analyzing data is when a player is moving well so be that that I think they’re moving well or or whoever’s working with me thinks that yeah this is really good let’s grab that data because that becomes I suppose to some extent the new Benchmark it’s not so much working towards a set of numbers it’s more that’s the movement that’s giving that suits this players physiology um best it’s giving them best control over their their their flight so you know that they’re hitting more good shots with more control and the quality of their bad shot is improved okay what are those numbers for that player because that’s what we want you know how are they moving how are they interacting with a force play you’re using some of that because that that’s what in my mind becomes really important and then you know can they hit the variations that that they want to that they want to hit and then if you start delving into you know some of the the Moneyball type stuff you were thinking um you know for you know Mark Lehman is very much a visual external player but he has statistics on every part of his game with um with someone going right here’s where you’re at right now relative to the field here’s what’s improved this year here’s where here’s an area for consideration you know over the last couple of events this has dropped off we need to pay some attention here so so different players deal with that information in different way but ultimately with all of that data let’s call it it can be as complex as you like it can be as simple as it likes as you like but you need to package that up in such a way that you first of all gain the attention of the player and then you’ve got a plan of attack of how to move forward with it so I I always one of the things we did if I go back to V days and I know GF Australia do a little bit of it now still to this day is one of the strengths of the program is we were able to send our players overseas to compete and to some extent that was you know there was there was and we sent them over before people thought they were ready compete at that level but some of it you know some of it was about okay well we’ll give you a budget you book your own aairs you enter for the tournaments you figure out where you’re going to stay blah blah like you want to be a tour player here’s an opportunity to do with golf you better be good at this here’s your first opportunity to start figuring that out for yourselves it was very much there’s your budget you come to us with what you’re going to do and and and move forward there so there’s that sort of thing but the other reason we did it is we wanted them to be exposed to International level and to some extent come back and and go you know what we played at kousi in this wind and the guys I was playing at with the locals that were doing this and and I didn’t have that shot how do they do that and I always think from a from a coaching point of view if you get a player come along to you saying I have a weakness help me with it that’s a very different coaching environment to me going you the problem we need to it’s totally different and it’s engagement isn’t it that’s a different yeah and tying it back in with that data thing again you know often we can go oh well here’s what we need to modify in order for you to be able to play that shot more consistently or the way you need to do it so although although there’s so much information or data that’s available to players in this day and age you still have to just go right here’s the way I’m going to present this to rod in such a way that he’s it’s going to gain his attention and that again is very different with with different players yeah you could make the case really that the information is for the coach to filter and then pass on can you not it’s not always a great thing for the player to know those things is it yeah that’s right so so coaches and support staff it’s deciphering that information to go right here’s what’s really important out of this and here’s the way we’re going to yeah approach this player and of course that whole intangible element of coaching which is to tell each player in the way that makes sense to them and the way you explain that to Mark lman might be different to the way you explained it to Mt Griffin might be different to the way you explained it to Bri mcferson it’s interesting I I always I always feel like not always I always I’ve had several times through my coaching career where a player has gone I figured this out and it’s just gone I figured out of ABC D happens and it’s kind of like I’ve been telling you that for two years right and I just go that’s that’s wonderful that’s amazing it’s like that’s what we’ve been working on but now but now you you’ve spat it back to me in a different way and it’s kind of like I go well there’s a learning opportunity for me maybe I should have expressed that way but but you know when a player goes out and and they do something that costs them and they’re able to step back and make a correction themselves I think um I I think that’s a great thing for a play you know around self-confidence and self-reliance so so for argument’s sake you know if you can create a situation well one of the things I say after tour of supp plays is okay let’s do a quick analysis what did you do well what did you not do so well what did you learn and what are you going to do about it so kind of walking through that process of okay where where are you at at the moment as as as a as a swinger of the golf club and as a player and what do you need to improve it’s like trying to get them to walk them through that process of coming up with the solution themselves because I’d much rather a player take a player through that process than me hopping on a plane going over than just going right this is what was wrong I I think it’s just better for a player to go even if you are sort of feeding the information walking them down that path for them to walk away going yeah I actually nutted this out and figured it out and I’m back on the March again I think that’s great for a player isn’t that the difference between knowing the times tables wrote and understanding how multiplication works you come to the same place but just learning that 2+ 2 equal 4 and having no idea why 2 plus 2 equals 4 is not as valuable as that moment you oh that’s why 2 plus 2al 4 it’s a much more powerful yeah it arms you much better for everything else that comes along with that doesn’t it yeah exactly right and and it’s interesting you know looking at plays you and I could be 150 yards from the range and look down the line and just go right well that’s Ernie El’s that’s Tiger Woods you know that’s Jordan spe like they they have their own patn of they’re fingerprints aren’t they they’re fingerprints and they get to a certain stage where where um you know as a coach you’re always trying to balance can I get them to improve their weaknesses without them losing their strengths that’s that’s pretty basic right that’s coaching 101 but it’s fair pressure though it is a fair pressure some the careers you’re talking about you know you’re dealing with people’s livelihoods very much yeah so that’s why yeah we talk if we go back to that data stuff for a moment what it does is it provides information for you to make a better coaching decision because at the end of the day we normally you’re making a highly educ ated guess of where you need to go if you like off the back of the um information you have and the experience you have you know the trial and error experience you have but sort of bringing it back to you know that that conversation um you know the patterns of movement so if I use Mark as an example if his striking starts to go off it’s normally one of two or three things so it’s several times s we have been able to just have a conversation around that or do a face-to-face conversation around that and and get back on track it doesn’t mean you’re not trying to move them forward it’s just like there’s your starting point let’s reestablish that base right what do we need to do do now and the only time it was interesting the only time that really didn’t work was when Co hit so you know the start of 2019 you know Mark one Tory you know lost CH hat and by shot at um at B kill and then shot 500 in the first round at the Players around a golf course it’s probably not his favorite it was on wasn’t it and I’m just say right this is this is the year you know he was just moving so well and then Co hit and he came out the other side of that not so good and then um you know to the point later that year in in October I met him at the Zozo where he was for Mark he he was in crisis um but then again it was just like hey who who’s that guy out there that’s not the way Mark lman plays golf nor is it the way way he practices and and and sort of from there was able to set that right pretty quickly and and you know talking about equipment you know he’s got a great guy in the bag mattye Kelly and that conversation was mat mattye was part of that conversation and um you know certainly part of Mark success can be contributed to the guy he’s got on his bag and the care that Matt has for how he plays and does he I think he’s ever had another care not that I know I can only remember him started out he had um a lovely guy by the name of Dale Eden on the bag um and then ended up with Maddie who is known from warnable days and they’re they’re a great team those two and and it’s often very telling about a player the caddy player relationship and the you can read things into that sometimes I think about the and the way they treat each other you know it says says a lot but um you know it’s it’s really it’s it’s always interesting to look at the results of players getting what the player’s perspective on it is and what the Caddy’s perspective on it on it is find that I find that fascinating and it’s more data or information to to sift through if you like outside viewers on it’s interesting and talking about stats it’s really interesting often um I’ll look at Mark’s stats and I’ll just go hey how’s this part of the game and he just goes oh it’s actually really good just around this Hol I was trying to do this this and this that’s why it looks like that so it’s an extraordinary game where and I think Bobby Jones talked about this that golf is a lifetime of relearning lessons you you’ve already learned that a player like Mark lechman can come back to two or three same things that he’s probably been doing since he was 13 14 15 all these years later they come back to haunt you and that the player themselves can’t always necessarily pick that yeah that it’s that one of those three things it’s extraordinary game isn’t it that you can get that far and yeah I have to say he’s been he’s he’s pretty good Mark he doesn’t Tinker too much I’ll certainly like I always say my oh one of the things I I I say is that my job is to expose players to a number of different ways of doing something to help them figure out what works best for them so it’s not often that Mark Tink is he’ll normally call me up or you know we might be fac a face you might be saying oh what do you think of this and I’ll just go yeah that either yep that fits in you can you can look at it from that point of view or you know I don’t know whether I like that because of this is what you’ve always done um but yeah he he’ll just um yeah we just get back to those things that have that have worked for him and and basically with Mark because you know he’s if you look at if you look at you know we’re talking a lot about Mark but if you look at where he was brought up and his DNA of of the way he developed so Warner Ball Golf Club Great Golf course I mean great Golf Course like so many different shots required it’s windy it can rain it can be hot cold but the golf course itself there’s so many different different elevation changes and so many different demands on your shot making ability but from a practice facility point of view like the putting green next to the Pro Shop’s pretty flat really nice little short game green like nice bunker and what have you but essentially as far as a range goes you’re hitting balls into a paddock there’s no real no real Target and that sort of thing so I look at the way Mark learned to play and it was very much well I’ll I’ll hit some balls and and work on what I need to do and he had some great tuition from Craig Bonnie down there you know um early in his career but it wasn’t par a particularly inspiring practice facility and that’s that’s not me being critical place it’s just statement of fact so he’d much prefer to go and play so the way he’d always improved was was by playing golf on the cause so to this day you know when we work on mechanics we’ll do it typically away from a golf tournament not during a tournament week so if Mark thinks about his golf swing when he’s playing he plays horrible yeah so he’s got to be in that that reactive mode like he’s a player right so we’ll work away from a golf tournament um we’ll work on one simple thing so I work on quite as said you know we gather all that information I just go right here’s what we need to do with setup here’s what we need to do with your downswing for example um or you move it through the ball for that matter and he’ll hit some shots you’ll just go yep I’ve got that I can feel that um I can practice the that he’ll just go right now I’m just going to hit some shots and he’ll stand there and he’ll start recal celebrating if you like all of the different shots he plays he goes yeah right let’s go and try it on the golf course and he’ll go out in the golf course and play holes and he’ll just go through through that sort of process where he puts it all all back together and he’s and he’s very much a player who’ll just go right I’ve got that I’m not going to try to fix it today I’ll just keep chipping away that you know over the next few weeks or whatever it is and just gradually get things get things back on track and of course because he spent of if we talk about bandwidth of of movement because he spent you know the greater part of his career within a certain bandwidth he can sense it when he’s starting to fall outside of it but can also sense it when it starts coming back in too much yeah so it’s it’s interesting with him even if he hits a bad shot when he’s when he’s been working on something he’ll go yep that’s the way that should have come out I can feel the way I delivered the club there that’s exactly where that should have gone which to him is as much being back on track as going y that came out there because it should have come out there so it’s interesting you know working with these players like sometimes it’s like bloody who who’s touching who you probably which is part of the fun of probably a two-way thing happening there in all honesty because what you are and this is my next and probably my final question because I’ve just seen how long I’ve taken for you and I could talk to you all day but anyway uh so you work with Mark lechman that’s at one end of the scale there’s the other end of the sky isn’t there what are the similarities and differences between those two things so working with recreational golfers recreational golfers double digit players who and I imagine you would see a lot of people who have come to the game perhaps a bit later in life become completely obsessed with it first thing they said is I wish I’d taken this up years ago and when you spoke to them years ago and said they should try no it’s an old man’s game mhm well hate to say I told you so but we told you so what’s the difference working with those people compared to Mark apart from the sometimes obvious physical physical differences in ability it’s interesting I I’d almost put my Recreation golf was into two buckets there are ones that come along and they go I don’t really care that much about lowering my handicap or what I score I just want to hit a few more shots out of the middle and show my mates who are slinging off me that I can actually I can actually hit a golf ball I just want them once to go wow that was actually a really good shot you know so there’s there’s those sorts of people and then you get ones come along going played the game for so long my handicap’s either stagnant or going out can you please assess my game and and and put me on some sort of program that gets my handicap coming back the other way so from the point of view so that that would be like the two different buckets that I would put them into at this stage and then from there the process isn’t that different so you know you’ll watch them play golf I think if if you can watch them play some holes because that’s always eye opening um it’s interesting you should say that I’ll get you get you to expand on that afterwards but yeah and then um you’re going through a similar process as a coach you’re just going right you’re looking at the ball flight that’s their bad shot they’ve spoken to me about and normally they’ve got two right they’ll they’ll hit a you know you know a slice and a pull you know for example and um and you go through the process of going right well first of all from a concept or cognitive point of view they need to understand what causes their bad shot and it’s surprising how often they don’t understand what actually causes you re surprising Dennis I reckon 90% of people who play the game have no concept and I put myself in this no concept of what it is the contact between the the the game is a constant surprise Everything feels the same one’s a hook and one’s a slice I just don’t understand it not often you get a hook and a slice and the but yeah I suppose yet for from a cognitive point of view help them understand why their Ball’s doing what it’s doing and then set about changing the motor program so anytime you know obviously you know the you know your cognitive abilities and and your motor skill they’re stored motor skills are stored in separate parts of the brain so it’s helping them understand you’re actually retraining brain wouldn’t have known that Dennis that’s speaks directly to what I was saying about that part coach in the 70s would not have known that the motor skills are stored in a separate part of the brain so and then to some extent around expectation it’s it’s like helping them manage their expectation like my expectation you know at the end of a lesson is to understand what causes their bad shot we’ve worked on some sort of you know exercise movement or drill if you like people call them drills that create the purpose of a drill is to create a model off which to work yeah so they can kind of go right yeah I can feel when I do that I’m doing that and ideally they get to the stage where they go oh I can sense that’s different and then importantly by the end of the lesson they need to ideally they’re able to say right they’ve done you know they’ve worked whatever exercise it is enough to go oh I felt myself do it that time and I could see the ball come off that way I should have done this shouldn’t I and when you get to that stage in a lesson if you can I know they’re going to come back better because they kind of they get it you’ve given them an exercise that’s helping them move the right way and they can actually self assess they they’ve got they’re comparing themselves they’re part of it yeah they’re part of that as do we think sometimes of golf coaches like doctors I’m sick I go to the doctor the fixes me and that’s our transaction my my golf swings off I go to the golf coach he fixes it and that’s that it can’t be that way can it the player has to have an active part in the process like there’s all these you know there’s so much on the on the internet nowadays but I don’t if we so here’s part of part of getting becoming a better player that that that needs to be communicated over time you know is you need to have your student working on the one thing as a coach that you decide side you need to do because a good golf coach is working several steps ahead of where they are right they’re going right I’ll put this into place we’ll step back on it see what changes because often you get reactive changes then I think I’m going to have to do this this and this and then we’ll be you know we’ll be where we need need to be um but one of the things I think is really important is to help govers understand what they don’t need to work on because they’ve been on internet for years and going well you know I need to do this this and this it’s kind of like well that’s irrelevant to you your physiology your equipment and the way you move like work on that you’re actually it’s not going to do anything here’s what you need to do and that’s like when you go to the doctor like if you go to the doctor and you’re sick you know unhealthy the doctor says Hey listen Dennis just lay off this and do this let’s wine more apples and you might yeah you might you might and not side it right and you might you might get you might start feeling better so I think that that whole thing of of knowing what you need to do don’t worry about all this if I haven’t spoken about it don’t work on it but and then the another part of that is is around expectation is like how long it takes to become a really good golfer and that and I’m talking about you know the The Swinging acquiring all the different skills that you actually need to get better takes time like motor programs motor skills are very enduring you know you have a nerve a neural pathway with milein build around it there’s already a super highway there for your go swing it’s not a one lesson thing or a 60-minute lesson thing you can change concept and perhaps change some movement but really owning that takes a bit longer and most golf coaches will know when they look at a player that well you you’re going to have to be you know a number of different things that that we improve over time and then you know that process if you like um if can I talk about Juniors for a moment course absolutely so so just to finish off on that it’s not it’s not that I don’t find it that different working with a recreational or or Club golfer to a tour pro it it is different because it’s not their livelihood but the way I go about helping them get better is not that different I’m I’m not the Quick Fix guy like I I had an example I was at MGA many years ago and and I had a guy show up with a bucket of balls in his driver and he said I’ve got a corporate dat Mar can he help me and I kind of looked at him I said I said well I’m on a hiding to nothing here I’m either going to be you know the to the toast of the town I’m just going to be this guy that that that you know ruined my day so I said to him we sort of got it few minutes in I said here’s what I want you to do I said you got two options you can go and get a refund but what I’d really like you to do is just go and have a practice now because you haven’t played for 3 months just get a bit of exercise go and have your day tomorrow and come back and see me next week and let’s do this the right way which he did do so you know there’s there’s all of these different you know theories around it but at the end of the day I sort of treat them like effectively what you’re doing you’re trying to assess a human being you’ve got seeing in front of you you know how they learn learn what their goals are and you just go down the path and trying to help them get better and and from that point of view it’s not that different to to touring to to touring Pros it’s a relationship isn’t it dentist it’s a people business it is yeah and that’s and that’s why um like I spend a lot of my time teaching Club golfers and juniors and I do that because I genuinely enjoy it you know it’s it’s it’s very different like there’s still pressure on you like when someone’s paying you for an hour of your time they expect a result at the end of it right so so it’s different to it’s it’s different to you know standing there watching a player come down the stretch in a tournament and you know hoping that everything you’ve said helps them to sort of get over the finish line but there’s still that that pressure and that you’re dealing with in the expectation of of the client which is different for all of them and then when it comes to Juniors um I think I’ve spent the last I don’t know at least 15 years um working on trying to provide a better quality of program for juniors you know and probably through through my own fromone two kids when they you know when they first started what do you mean by that a better quality of program what what was the problem with the quality of program before what are you trying to improve on what are the mistakes we used to make with [Music] Junior so when I look at like what is a junior golfer like what is a junior golfer well if I put a photo of of a group of 5-year-old Juniors which is very much a demographic nowadays say 10-year-old Juniors and 16-year- old Juniors the average pundit would look at them and just go well they’re all Junior golfers and then the question becomes well would you treat them all the same and or treat them differently because clearly they have different athletic development and golf skill development requirements like they they’re just totally different emotional development too absolutely so I think when I talk about providing a better Junior program I think for a long time and and things are changing certainly changing but when when I first started going down this path years ago like a five or sixy old Junior would be coached in a very similar way to a 16 or 17y old Junior and and I can assure you that that is not optimal of course it’s not it’s not optimal like if you together a program a program that’s not age appropriate yeah like it’s built for 16 or 17y old cord that is a great recipe to drive a five or six-year-old Junior who’s sampling the game out of the game you know it comes back to that retention again so the programs you know through titler performance Institute and you know the people ought to deal with here in Australia we we just took a different look at it and just said okay well what what do these kids kids need so we basically created a program that’s that’s um takes a very significant know pays a very significant nod to long-term athlete development so ltad is a term that’s been around you know for for for a long time right and to some extent it’s a retrospective study of how elite players became Elite you know what did they do um and from that there were there were you know the the the big draw car or the the big takeaways from that was they lived a multisport culture and they didn’t in late specialization Sports they didn’t specialize until they were until late yeah and I think not only at the time when I started developing my own Junior programs not only were the programs not age appropriate but they’re almost early specialization programs um which is great if you’re a female gymnast not so great if you’re a golfer who wants to be at the peak of their powers between the age of 25 and 35 so so the program that we rolled out with with with TPI was to some extent the first practical actually I shouldn’t say that because there are countries around the world that would argue it but but we basically took looked at ltad and said right what’s age appropriate and we went from there so tell people what sorts of things it’s quite surprising that things that you do with young kids as part of a golf program I was quite staggered the first time you told me about it it does make sense Yeah so basically if you look at um so kids are more sedentary nowadays than what they were when when I was young like and there’s so many factors that come into that there’s there’s you know parents wanting to sort of you know keep an ey kids make sure they don’t hurt themselves or you know there’s all sorts of we’re always worried about you know the the people around that want to do harm kids and that sort of thing they’re pulling playgrounds out of schools because they’re worried about litigation that sort of thing so I could talk about why for that is for for ours but but our kids are more sedent so they come down so they’re sampling the game at a younger age and they five six this is the and they’re making decisions around whether they want to stay in the game at a younger age as well so what we doing out in in our programs is is we’ve actually surveyed our kids it’s pretty funny when you survey a kid right so we just go what are your favorite after school activities and why and number one it’s fun it’s so much fun to do this number two is like I get to do it with my friends or I make new friends doing this number three this is really important for for for golf I feel welcome I feel like this is this is a welcoming environment um four is it feels good to do so imagine you know a 5-year-old Junior being given a driver and 100 Balls and say hit that for the next hour yeah I know you got to grip it like this I know your stance isn’t quite and then and then you got to be good at it you got to get you got to enjoy doing it right you got to get good at it and when you look at it look at the reasons we play golf with different people or play golf it’s it’s pretty much for that so we’ve taken ltad and and basically what we do is um we have taken it upon ourselves to go right if kids are sitting on their bums more someone needs to take responsibility for helping them become athletes because often we we get like three categories of Juniors who come along to our programs that’s like a the parents of Golf Nut or the grandparents of Golf Nut B the kids a Golf Nut or or C golf’s The Last Resort oh he’s not good at football he’s and’s could now you and I just know reement so our Junior program uh the ones that we run we have an a like a childhood athletic development trainer who’s on site and what they do is they take so if if we had an hour for example with with a group of fundamental phase Juniors which is like one of the early developmental phases the window o there’s a window of opportunity there to neurologically wire speed so you’ll see like our kids trying to kick throw punch whatever athletic development exercise you’re doing there’s a there’s a do this as fast as you can as far as hitting a golf ball hit it as far as you can hit it I don’t care where it goes let’s just take that opportunity to develop speed because if you miss it if you miss that window you’ve missed it okay that can that can be a affect how far you can how fast you can move as an adult for example so that’s extra develop what I call fundamental movement skills which are just the easy way to describe it is they’re the building blocks of athleticism you know there’s the um Locomotion skills hop skip run you know um the ABCs agility balance coordination speed um object control kicking throwing punching striking that sort of thing and then kinesthetic and and spatial awareness if you like and they’re the sorts of things that if we look back on probably you and I what we did as kids I don’t know about you I got home from primary school I unlocked the front door I threw the school bag in the front door and I was gone till dark I was a bike rider I just rode a bike constantly so what we’re trying to do is is replace some of the athletic development that’s not being done by parents or even to some extent schools this day because golf requires athleticism and you know the thing is if we develop or assist to develop athleticism you can actually teach them to become better golfers there were golf one of the questions I ask when I’m doing seminars on this because I I I lecture on junior golf at TPI around the world is I said have you ever had that kid that boy or girl show up at seven or eight years of age they’ve never played golf and you say hey hold the club like this and do this and they do it straight away and all of a sudden you’ve got visions of Tiger Wood have you ever thought about what that is well that’s the the expression of the athletic development that they’ve had I can guarantee they’ve either got sporty parents or they’ve had had three or four or five different sporting activities that they Cricket basketball football doesn’t matter what it is and typically typically the sports that relate to actually striking something like for example or throwing something I think you know one of the great things parents can do for their for their little kids is little aths because you’ve got sprinting in there like sprinting is like taking advantage that speed window and then the field sports like discus um Javelin you know Hammer you know all of those shot putut all of those they’re just brilliant for golf there’s a great crossover and and and then the other end of the scale you get that kid come along who’s seven or 8 years of age and they’re the and I don’t say this from a drog Tre point of view they’re like the Australian chess champion and you just go well that they’re lacking athletic development and that just from a coaching point of view I know which one I’d rather coach and I know which one I think Will has more chance of making it you know at at the high levels in the game so you know the the the the little athlete that’s there you just go right parents you’ve done a brilliant job keep living that multisport culture we’re going to be doing stuff in the program that will challenge even where their athletic level of ability is right now and then with the the other Junior who hasn’t done anything it’s just like I always service in coaching development is sequential you can’t start studying Calculus if you haven’t got the basics of mathematics so we assess them and just go right here’s where we start so those let’s say they’re the same age group those kids they can train together but they’ll be doing totally different so the athletic kid will have a golf club in his hand to be playing golf shots and the other kid might be doing some assaults and so things unrelated to golf so there’s the athletic development component to the program then there’s the golf skill development component of the program it’s a golf program right so we’re doing be the end result so it’ll be when they’re doing their athlet athletic development there’ll be a different Focus there’ll be a different they might be using different equipment and you know the trainer can take them through that and then from a golf development point of view um you sort of you you’re working them through a curriculum so we have 13year curriculum that we work through it’s like being at school shop at school on day one here’s what you’re starting today you know what’s the feedback din so are there kids who’ve been through all 13 Years yet we got some coming just coming like in the sort of I’ll call it mid High School area what’s been the feedback and what sort of things have you learned about because of course not everybody needs or wants to go on to some sort of higher level I mean if the if the chess kid ends up just becoming a 15 marker for the rest of his life and loves the game and travels world and is’s passionate about it it’s equally as impressive we don’t want to get too taken away with just the elit so we’re going to be talking about this chess kid so if the chess kid and I’ll be pushing up daisies long before he gets to this stage but if the chess kid is still has played golf his whole life and he’s in his mid-50s and he plays every weekend he’s playing on 15 I consider the junior program that he came through to be a great success it’s a huge success because it gets back to retention and as I said the Jun the Junior programs around the world it’s interesting what parents we haven’t even started on parents we haven’t got time but the expectation like like the I won’t even open that can worms but but the um the programs need to be like if we had a world-class Talent come through the program needs to be versatile enough to cater to that I I kind of consider the Junior programs that we run you know one of our jobs is if we look at the elite end of town is to feed elite players into the pathway because you’re only going to turn out at the upper end of the pyramid um sorry that relies on certain volume of players coming through right so I think the Junior programs need to be sophisticated enough to be able to to to to do that but just as importantly or probably even more importantly is how many kids can we actually inspire through you know our own passion for the game and and programs that are age appropriate to stain the game long enough to go I’m pretty freaking good at this I actually really enjoy it I’ve made a bunch of new friends and this is actually what I want to do with my time outside of work and you know and you know perhaps meet someone and introduce them to the game and then have kids that they introduce to the game like that’s the the retention that that we wanted and you know you I’m I can see like one of the things that I’m I’m really big on with with Junior Golf is I’m actively involved in the junior program at Peninsula Kingswood for example and the reason I’m involved in that is I think our Juniors deserve the best we can possibly give them so you know I I’m involved in that program because I think they deserve it I’m not sort of trying to pump myself up but if I can like a little bit of my passion for golf can wash off onto them and and they enjoy themselves and they go I want to keep doing this even if some of them you know do decide that they become footballers or or basketballers or whatever um well I feel like I’m I’m sort of doing doing my job and I think in the past if we go back to Junior programs a lot of the time it was like an afterthought it’s just like yeah we better run a junior program and and Bob you’re not doing anything so you can run the program whereas I just go no no no no no no I sort of understand the pathway and and my job’s to sort of be involved and and lead from the front and um educate coaches who are working with me and and make sure they’re doing a good job as well because our Juniors deserve it and it’s all about retention you’ve been a lifelong golfer Dennis you’re helping to create lifelong golfers your passions to create lifelong golfers you’ve done some amazing stuff in the game I just looked at the time it’s been absolutely fabulous to it’s not the last conversation we’ll have but for the moment we’ll let the listeners go really appreciate you taking the time it’s been fantastic thank you very much Absolut pleasure rod and and it’s it’s time for a um it’s time for one of those biscuits now that you’re delightful wi for us earlier thanks very I don’t know about you but I found that a very refreshing interview given what’s been going on at the top levels of the game in recent weeks and months now for those wondering the biscuits and cakes mentioned at the start were indeed dealt with appropriately and Dennis’s delightful wife Glenda did in fact make me a sandwich and some treats for my journey back to the airport for which I am eternally grateful if you’re listen listen in glender you’ve set the bar high for my next interviewee that’s all for episode 68 but I don’t have a snippet of our next just yet because John hugin will be doing that interview at the upcoming US Open now I won’t reveal the name of the guest but suffice to say you don’t want to miss it next time on the thing about golf [Music]
