What we learned from Ireland’s defeat to South Africa | RTÉ Rugby podcast

Neil Treacy is joined by Bernard Jackman on this week’s RTÉ Rugby podcast to recap Saturday’s first Test defeat against South Africa, and look ahead at this weekend’s final game of the season in Durban.

Jackman gives his thoughts on the devastating injury blow to hooker Dan Sheehan, and how the Irish scrum and lineout will be affected by his absence.

We also examine how South Africa’s attack in the first half caused real problems for Ireland, and discuss how the Springboks could become a dominant force with their new attacking strategy.

And the podcast also discusses why Ireland need to work on their communication skills when dealing with referees, with Caelan Doris struggling to get on the right side of Luke Pearce last week.

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hello and welcome along to another RTE rugby podcast with me Neil Tracy and joined by Berard Jackman it is test week two of Ireland’s tour of South Africa I moved on from Johannesburg down to the the beautiful town of umanga just north of Durban which is the base for both Ireland and the spring box this week not much more than a 5minute drive between the the two teams Hotel so I wonder will they’ll be crossing paths uh as the week goes on as we speak it is Tuesday evening recording here just gone 6 o’ local time in South Africa the skies are dark behind me this afternoon I was down at the the springb team hotel we were listening to Razzi arasmus and bngi and Bambi as they did last week A Tuesday team announcement for the box and Razzy has run it back again this week same starting 15 same bench the most experienced spring box starting team ever at 990 caps so bur no fear of them putting the feet up this weekend take no absolutely and I think they were frustrated I think both it’s it’s bizarre but both both teams probably finished both coaches were frustrated with last weekend’s game even though obviously the Box got a win I think they felt it was unnecessarily nervy for them um at the end and are kind of working out trying to work out how they didn’t um put Ireland away in a more convincing fashion given the dominance they had in terms of possession and territory um and opportunities really in that first half that they that they didn’t turn into the points they wanted obviously po missed missed um some kicks which very unusual but the fact they’ve gone so strong again um is a real statement isn’t it and uh yeah it’s going to be interesting I I thought Ireland my good feeling post Saturday in Petoria was irand actually have a chance to win next week in Durban um but then obviously the injury um the injury worries are are very significant and it’s just another game and they just look like they’re they’re gearing up and they want to give the Durban crowd similar type of um opportunity and occasion that that the uh the more Africans fans had in uh in Petoria yeah it sort of felt like a kind of a as you said noi team were on top form it was like a a seven or seven and a half out of 10 springb performance against like a six and a half out of 10 or or maybe seven Irish performance where there was a lot of room for for both to improve on like as you mentioned the LOF is there I I just have to say like being there at the weekend was something else like my first time there um such a a fascinating place and an incredible stadium and atmosphere and you know seeing it from the outside but all the the red bricks what what I love about it loved about it was like there was no frills to the place whatsoever and you know know someone who maybe doesn’t like rugby could look at that stadium and say well it’s a bit oldfashioned and it’s you know it’s a bit run down in areas and it’s it’s not the most modern place in the world but it almost has that like I’d say it had like that Fenway Park kind of a feel to it where yeah it it felt like a great rugby Arena just being there and uh one thing that was a little unfortunate that the Press Box where we were sitting was behind glass so you didn’t get to fully get that atmosphere we did walk out kind of fit 10 15 minutes before the match kind of walked out into the stand just to stand there for a couple of minutes and and soak it all in and and that was fantastic but we uh myself and all the other journalists we got down there nice and early for about like half 11 12:00 in the day and just kind of mosied our way around the ground for a couple of hours because we did want to we did want to soak it in um do the media do the media guess um a BRI as well in The Press Room or how did they how did they feed you there there there was food there I’ll tell you actually before the game um what was great a few of us were walking around and I was with uh muray kinsa and we walked down down the road he might have told the story on his own podcast a couple of days ago as well with you but we walked down to um afy which is one of the the school across the road where or Sim used to go and that’s where they had I suppose like the tailgating for want of a better word where the okay the pitch was just the the rugby pitch was just converted into a car park all the all the lads in from the Farms with the the big pickup trucks park there and everyone In fairness was so friendly around the place there was actually like a great Vibe there’s people bring and barbecuing all over the place we we walked in there and within two seconds someone actually stopped us and asked just a family would we take a take a photo for them so after we obliged they started talking to us and and this Man In fairness within within 20 seconds of meeting us he was sending one of his kids away to to try get us a drink and we were trying to explain to him no you know we’re working than but no thanks and we we politely declined and and you know what I’m glad we declined because what he was offering us he was telling us there was this drink called a spring Bucky which neither me nor Murray knew what it was um after Googling it a little bit later on in the evening we discovered it was a some sort of a cocktail containing ver MTH and um and something else on top of it as well which which wouldn’t have been conducive to writing a match report so could have been some of your best work meil could it could have been who knows we might try it some but no just something like it was a great atmosphere and In fairness the springb fans there were were really nice and seeing the the team come in it was incredible like seen growing grown men and women just screaming Razzy erasmus’s name as he walked past it was like one of the Beatles had walked into the room so I would say it to anyone put it on your bucket list a spring box game at lus is is up there now I’m sure this weekend is going to be brilliant as well here in Durban we’ll move on to the the news of the week then which as we said was um the big news from an Irish point of view obviously Dan shean and Craig Casey out Dave heern and Nathan do into the squad there are potentially other injuries being monitored Robbie Henshaw We Believe departed with hiia on Saturday also some knocks to James low Baki Jamie Osborne and Andrew Porter as well H who got that nasty cut on his hand but we think that one should be fine there’s no official update on those players arand will be doing media tomorrow so hopefully we’ll get an update on that before we go in I suppose brch to the ramifications of how Ireland are going to line out this weekend and things like that it looks like Dan Sheen’s injury is is going to be a serious one it’s not confirmed yet but it’s a suspected H ACL injury We Believe which realistically you’re you’re you’re potentially seeing him missing the whole way through next year’s Six Nations um regardless of what happens this weekend like it’s just a that’s a crap low for for a player who was for the last couple of years as good as anyone in his position in the world yeah look he’s he’s a certain he was certainty to be on the lines tour I think um and probably starter I mean um he really could play for any team in the world I think um and it’s been quite robust uh and it’s a big blow to him yeah like nine months usually um so he could obious get back for for the tail end of next season with ler and maybe force his way onto a line to or um but yeah it is it is a big blow and it’s a huge blow for this weekend I mean it’s a great opportunity for R kellerer who you know two or three years ago we were we were saying you know he can be the AR hooker for the next eight nine 10 years that’s how good he is um and he’s had to bite his lip a little bit and and you know played an impact role off the bench at Province and for Ireland so it is a great opportunity for him and um it’d be interesting to see how he develops and obviously hering will go on the bench and then Dave heon’s been called out as well so um but from an Irish point of view in terms of an x- Factor player and to be honest Dan Sheen’s profile in terms of how his his skill set his attributes is probably more suited to Ireland or more important for Ireland than other teams because of how farell wants to play and it wasn’t evident at the weekend whatever but um you know dynamic quick skillful well showed actually sorry the little pass for the uh tunaki which led to the Osborne TR you know not many hookers have that in their in their locker and um so he is a it is a big blow and his energy as well and his his his guts and his his like his work great off the ball um he’s become a a keykey player for Ireland and uh yeah it was very unfortunate and he tried to stay on obviously but um yeah the Robbie hencha one like was that from the was that concussion or that ha from the kesi one obviously he didn’t go off for ha the time but um remember kesi had a strong carry in in Midfield um it’s a lot of injuries and then Porter Porter’s cut I’ve seen a photograph it is that from a boot or was it was it just a tear with his finger going back like out of kind of range yeah I’m not I that’s one I I don’t even know what happened there I was trying to look back at it on on Sunday when I was watching the match back and I couldn’t really out I couldn’t pick out anything in particular that actually that actually happened there feels like it was kind of like in the the web of the finger almost yeah it’s unusual you don’t see many Cuts like that you know um in games it’s usually for contact cut you know on a on a a Sharp heart to the body and elbow or whatever but yeah it’s uh it’s quite a high attrition rate and and it kind of it worries you a little bit about this week doesn’t it it worries me anyway yeah and I suppose we’re really not going to have a clue until we we name the team the um even though I say we’ll be getting an update tomorrow those updates tend to be fairly vague and uh don’t really give away a huge amount unless as you say it’s it’s like a Dan and or Craig Casey situation where it’s it’s a fairly open and shut case on it on on Ronan kellerer you kind of hinted that there you would you be fairly set on on kellerer to start or would you be tempted to throw and Rob Herring I say it because I say it because looking at the at the line out I know you’ve spoken before about how much you like Rob Herring as a as a line out forer um like looking back on Saturday and the World Cup game in in September where kellerer started and obviously in that first half we know the Irish line out struggled as well then like he came on he came on at halftime on on Saturday and looking at the the tracking of the line outs when when Sheen was on Arland were four out of five Keller her in the second half three out of six was like yeah I suppose obviously at that stage the the bomb squad are on and South Africa load of changes would would you still have faith in Ron and Keller around the around the lineups well yeah I would but I’d have more fate in hering um just from a pure trowing point of view I think he’s he’s top class in area i’ be really interesting if you know I’d love to be in flying of wall and this coach discussion Paul and and Simon everyone everyone discussing the VY obviously you know uh hering’s a very good scrum um scrum operator as well he might be as big as as kellerer but um I I know he’s a very smart technician um very very smart Mar so I think you know John foger he was doing some scrum consultency for oldster there when Richie Murphy came in just to tight him over and um I I believe that you know Rob Rob stepped up as well so it was kind of they kind of shared a little bit um because obviously John was trying to double job and he wasn’t there as much as a normal full-time scrum coach could be so um that may be an issue and obviously I know he was um I know sorry I know the scrome at the end um for for the P TR was was pretty horrific but in general we actually scrummage quite well yeah um yeah for the with with our first choice um front rows and I thought Porter was outstanding against mat herba in particular but that’s you can’t help but fear for that area of the game as well you know um uh this improving and like if we if if that if they get any bit of a senseny that they got late in the game um cuz they got the penalty before that from scrum as well which led to James low trying to keep the ball in touch um and uh and that try as well so that’s that’s worry for us um particularly Porter’s out I think I think we could be under big pressure there but yeah I don’t I don’t see Keller as being an impact player really I I think he’s um and probably not hering either to be fair like they’re both they’re both fellas I would say start whereas you could you could say with Dan you know last take him on bring him on after 50 minutes and he will run run right the other two are are more starters in my opinion so uh um I’ve got no strong preference I think probably logically Keller starts because he was ahead of Herring and um I do think that was the lineer start I think it’s more an issue around it’s not so much of throwing um we have the box have shown us um have shown an ability to shut us down pretty well and I was a bit disappointed with our with our ability to have a really solid plan and get quality ball um in that area uh so I’m sure it’s been a tough week for Paul and and he’s trying to design a a menu this week that gets us quality ball yeah and like on the line out as well Razzy Rasmus was actually quite good on it he was much um much more much more business than than usual Rasmus today he he wasn’t his usual kind of like joking self up to Mischief like he was last week this was a much more straight lace version of him and he did speak quite well around the around the line outs I’m just trying to dig up the quote here particularly around like South Africa’s good record against arand yeah in those last couple of games there and he did kind of say like it’s been a combination of a lot of homework a lot a lot a lot of homework and yeah trying to to go back on what he knows from Paul o Connell from when they would have overlapped when Paul was kind of starting his coaching career at monster before Razzy left and but he also says I do think this team being the spring box is becoming a bit more mature players are taking more responsibility like the Irish players that I experienced when I was there there’s a cultural difference when players come in learn profile study opposition and it took us time to get H to get this in the squad we started in 2018 and here we are six years later and we’ slowly brought that culture culture of ownership of those things so he’s kind of saying like the the players he has at his disposal you’re Peter steps Ean etth Franco Master it hasn’t always been there with them but they they’re learning how to I suppose pick up on things in the moment and that’s probably that’s probably something like what a peder manah has had down the years on defensive lineups yeah know 100% and look at if you look at the Box defensive lineups um they don’t try and reinvent a wheel every week they’ve got their own core fundamentals um mainly around where where they want to give you the ball you know what I mean so we we saw you know you see a lot of teams trying to hurt him down the front um because B normally bongi bongi tries to play two roll so he’ll he’ll leave the front line out like as the ball’s been thrown in sometimes to be a tail Gunner and um uh Wales tried to exploit that with a a kind of a little front peel but again the scramble like everybody seem you’re so aware um there that’s the thing about the box is that they can set up differently than other teams but people’s awareness and their ability to live off scraps or or make um make 60 or 403s 40 60s their own um or even dominant for them is is incredible and uh that’s that’s and then obviously teams are thrown over the back a few times as well which again can guarantee a ball but it’s what you do with it you know what I mean so I think that’s the thing about them is they’ve been so consistent in how they defend um they just everyone understands it perfectly and it puts the opposition on the back front because they’re then trying to win ball in areas that they’re not used to and then I think for for Ireland um you know razi saying he he kind of had an insight into Paul uh certainly RG and and John Klein in particular um would have had a a fair idea of the philosophy and I’m not saying that that it’s not fluid but um but even like Pete and Ty burn coming back from Ireland you know to moner it happens all the time the players come back from International level to their Province and they share you know ideas philosophies calling systems to try and if to make their own team better and and again you know there’s no doubt that at a at a lineup defensive meeting you know RG would have been piping in with little um little tidbits of information he has you know so it’s uh um yeah it’s probably the worst possible opposition AR could have uh in that area for lots of different reasons in all parts of the pitch but particularly defensive line outs they’re um they’re pretty hard to work out let’s beat they’re not hard to work out they’re hard to beat yeah yeah let’s move away from the tide five stuff cuz I think we could probably get get lost in that for a while exactly yeah um Craig Casey obviously is the other blow um it’s not necessarily like you know I don’t a bit of any fear of Conor Murray coming in no you know there’s no worries there but probably worth mentioning him considering it was the biggest start he’s had for AR the biggest game he’s got to play for aren across these 15 caps and while he was on the pitch in those 63 minutes there was a lot of pressure on him and he was dealing with it pretty well he was having a good a good hour before before he ended up getting that bad concussion I think it was probably as good a performance he’s had this year and that’s not saying he’s been in bad form but it was a real stand out for him when the opportunity was presented to him um he took it and it was a really difficult game for a nine because the breakdown was an absolute mess we weren’t really getting front football um and was bodies in the way Etc and I just thought his passing was was really Snappy but also his um his defense but probably the one that stands out most is his kicking game under pressure um was excellent so he kicked in he kicked quickly and accurately and um got us some territory when we really needed it so I think it was a massive step forward for for him and obviously he won’t get to play this weekend but um you know you go into November and if there was something wrong with Gibson Park you’d have no fear about about Casey now which is exactly what he would have wanted to get out is certainly on the on the incident itself what were your thoughts on that cuz obviously it just ended up being a scrum it was Orie snyman reaches out slaps the ball out of his hand and or you know grab grabs the arm sorry I should say in case he knocks it on and then there’s the follow through which is I believe that’s what the Irish management aren’t particularly pleased about um obviously it wasn’t head contact it was Casey hitting his head off afterwards what are your your thoughts on it um I think it’s very marginal I think you could I I think if it’s a penalty given against lineman there um I don’t think there any anyone really going to be outraged I I think a yellow card would have been you could see what yellow card given if the TMO really got stuck into it but um I think he knows what he’s doing um Simon does but I don’t think it’s horrific or I think like um just that little clip of what was happening in around that like just showed how chaotic the game was you know um so it was very unfortunate injury there’s there’s a there’s something on social media there that the the GPS or sorry not the the information from his Mard um in terms of the the impact of the GeForce was it’s the biggest impact recorded ever um in since they’ started using that technology so look at and that’s that’s just unfortunately very fortunate to way his head kind of sna back um and I don’t think AR Ste would have intended that at all um and he he’s just trying to come on and give give impact and be an enforcer uh so yeah penalty for me I wouldn’t have had any issue with I don’t think it was much more than that I did see it I did see it suggested um the lack of reaction from any of the Irish players to that if you were if you were out there on that pitch and you know arguably the biggest man in the pitch takes out your takes out your scrum half dud would you have expected couple of Irish players to to just be having words I’m not talking about diving in yeah I think 99 job like from the old days yeah I don’t think I don’t think I don’t think yeah I I don’t think there should have been a fight about it right I think the players themselves like I think kind of a lot of them were uncited by it you know it was kind of it happened play the ball went to the right and and he kind of followed through um yeah it was I think irand were um it was just such a messy game it was just you know what I mean like there was so much happening I think I think I think the the Irish players were maybe wondering why it wasn’t um was it was there the penalty at the breakdown Etc ETA so yeah I don’t know um I’d say my good feeling is is that the players probably postmatch realize was worse than it looked probably to them at the time you you know what I mean yeah so um yeah like it it did probably happen behind the backs of some of the players follow through um let’s go to the start of the match then um when it it was a strange one where all week you know the Irish players and management had been asked about what have you been seen from from South Africa under Tony Brown now in that first game against against uh against Wales you know your experience of playing against his style of attack in the World Cup when he was when he was with Japan the we it was like we we knew what was coming we knew what to expect but there was such a it felt like there was a lack of energy in that that Irish defense in the opening opening 20 minutes in particular and when you look at the try that was scored after three minutes just how slow that that middle section of Defenders were to to get up and pressure off the off the line it was it was strange to see such such low energy from Ireland in those first few minutes yeah but and at first that’s what I feared going into this game was because that was kind of how the lster team looked against the Bulls you know um months or less so but it wasn’t the same energy in the months performance against lasgo as as we would have seen a little bit earlier on the season so I I feel and I think it’s a massive Testament Ireland’s doggedness and resilience and bravery that we recovered from that and actually made it a proper test because the first 15 20 minutes you’re thinking you know what with what South Africa were doing plus the bench they had this is going to be a 25 Point defeat I felt and um in first of far Ireland haven’t ever got in the last couple years got tonked you know what I mean like England was close uh New Zealand was close that was still you know the game was there and going into the final five minutes there so they they have this ability to stay stay intact and not lose lose the head um but I think look at I I actually think irand were surprised by the revolution in sou afric’s attack I know that they would have known Tony Brown was there but there was a stat I saw so in the World Cup passes per match you know uh 82 67 84 against Wales 119 but against irand 175 like this was the game that they just they just implemented the Tony Brown system perfectly now you could argue that they weren’t allowed to do it by Wales too you know what I mean that so they might have wanted to do that against Wales but Wales is line speed um and energy and work race were Superior and Ireland kind of let them play the way they wanted to play and I definitely think Easter be will will be focusing on that but um like that game is the game where you go Tony Browns had an effect um whereas Wales was harder to see it and uh um and I don’t know why we were so slow to to react like in some way my initial reaction was is there is there confusion over how we’re defending are we trying to defend like Ireland or like lster you know what I mean like because um there was no massive intent or or wit on the defense to be able to go and shut it down um but then that Rec recovered a bit but also we wasn’t just line speed and WID we started to go after them at the breakdowns of the wide channels and they started to lose a little a couple of balls there and then they be they became quite loose as well like they were offloading um you know under pressure and putting players in a worse position um given them possession Ireland were after them so I I’m not sure Ireland found a total solution to it I think maybe South Africa would feel that they wasted opportunities as well um Gary ringrose did make a big a big impact though yeah in that regard in the second half didn’t he 100% and that’s exactly what we needed from him and look he is a defensive leader he is a leader um and he’s like he’s he’s the only real 13 like Robbie does a good job with 13 but Gary is the 13 and he’s he’s used to defending um very close to the edge there and he communicates incredibly well and gets people set up inside outside him so yeah he has a he has he’s a big role to play this weekend I think um it does make you as you were kind of talking about like how how well South Africa were looking in attacking in those early stages it does give you a little bit of a shiver if you think like geez if they if they actually perfect this this side of the game God knows what it’s going to be like in four years time because when you were seeing CIA kesi and Peter St out on the tram tracks getting the ball isolated with with space to roam in front of them and the space that Peter step got out out the rice nearly put K chz and Colby in for a try and it was only a great tackle from Jack Crowley that held him up that stopped him then you saw C kisi out in the other out the other side of the pitch just bouncing Robbie heno off him if they can start getting those things together and really nailing that down over the next couple of years just with the foundation they have of their pack bloody hell 2027 could be a could be a tough World Cup for everyone yeah 100% because they have they have the setpiece both attack and defense they have the kicking game they have the defense um they have the power they have the muscle they have the depth this was the only team they were really missing um and it hasn’t stopped them win the line series and two World Cup so yeah you’re you’re being very uh I mean very critical to say they missing it but um it gives them another layer and and maybe you can do things easier you know what I mean like I think I think Ireland you know if if if they play the power game the one out game which you tried lots of times as well um you know AR can get nice and narrow there and you’re you know you’re get double shots on and you’re not going to dominate them but you’re going to survive um and we did survive uh but they then that ability to to get to it with good shape get the right people you know on the ball getting those connections and and getting them comfortable attacking with each other in the edge is um the athleticism they have you know whether it’s even quag quag obviously um we didn’t see him as much on the edge but he would be ridiculously good out there um it’s a fear it’s a it’s a it’s a fearsome thought really of how could they could be um they could be the complete team you know like they could be like the All Blacks the great All Blacks teams never were never strong I don’t believe at the up front you know they were they were all very good footballers very skillful very fit mentally tough Etc um and an amazing side sides but this South African team it’s the added other layer could be the complete team absolutely I said that the age profile like we’re talking we’re kicking forward to Australia now you know that’s um this is the most experienced sou African team ever so how many of them are going to be in the same condition in in three years time is another question but um yeah you you’d certainly be very comfortable if you’re a spring boxer you’re going to have some good years ahead certainly um what else will we talk about here we’ve got a few things to to go through one of the was St we stay honest was a things for Ireland to be working on and it’s something you touched on earlier on when you were talking about the fact that Ireland’s scrum for the first hour or so was actually pretty good and bang yambi was doing media today he was talking about it as well and he was saying that like South Africa were quite frustrated that that the starting South Africa pack ended up being quite frustrated and they’ve had a few long conversations in the last few days now he did throw in as well the fact that Arland like to to play a few tricks at the scrum and uh you know the the Box just want a good honest contest so he was just dropping that one out for Carl Dixon to to tune into this week but but in general the it was fairly even for the first hour in the scrum and you might say Ireland just about edged it but yeah but once the two once the two repl basement front rows came on unfortunately there was no contest for Ireland and that’s where the that’s where the worry probably is would you a couple of questions on it first of all would you would you been incl to give olager a run this week just to just to see how he do just to see how he gets on yeah and also then um like it’s nothing nothing against ke and Healey but it just highlighted the fact that how we we need to be developing more loose head props and people need we need to be seeing how people are getting on in these in these test matches and it’s not good for Ireland that we’re no so reliant on Andrew Porter and also then when he’s not there to be so reliant on Kean Healey yeah 100% I look at it’s nothing against Kean as you say but I think if you’re the if you’re the the PE the third and four Choice loose heads you know um you’d have to be saying when am I going to get a a shot even if it’s Off the Bench um and this is probably the game that that farl can kind of forward like I’m not saying he’s not targeting a win or anything that but um it’s it’s it is an opportunity to to have a look at somebody against you know what’s probably one the greatest tests now um like even the Georgians aren’t scrummaging as well as they used to this is this is the litmus test for for front rows so can interrupt you there actually as well actually and just on the on the loose head side of things um how much how much of this is the irfu need to be getting smart Mar at developing their loose heads or concentrating on it and how much is it that the loose heads out there around the provinces how does someone need to start banging on Andy farl’s door and start getting really really bullish about the way they’re playing because Ireland do have a lot of there are a lot of options there in that yeah middle middle 20s age bracket that in theory should be should be primed for for banging down Andy far’s door and you know putting in performances but the problem is that there aren’t many of them actually doing it yeah they’re all Irish qualified bar they kof has gone um and yeah and I don’t think far has missed the like I’m not I wouldn’t criticize him I don’t think he’s like most of fans would say oh Jeremy lockman’s had a great year you know and I don’t disagree with that but do I like do I think Jeremy lman would go in and would come off the bench and replace Andre Porter and give the same level as p as as Vincent Co the other side but just or M marks like that’s the thing like there sometimes their bench is better than their starting team um and I and I don’t I I think I I’m not really sure that the the middle the middle group that the the guys who are um holding holding down starting positions in the provinces the other provinces barer um I’m not sure we’ve missed the trick with any of those really um you know that uh it’s probably something younger than that or hopefully a couple of options younger than that that we’re going to have to Hope come true quickly um to be like proper test like tier one nation test uh props um either starting or Off the Bench um and I think that’s like it’s it’s Keen has done a phenomenal job of staying healthy and and staying fit but nothing has come to really pressure him in a in a in a significant way um and as I said I don’t blame far for that but uh that’s it’s an area now it’s becoming critically dangerous for arand I think um and we won’t be winning World Cups or can take winning Six Nations for granted unless we we we solve that you know um and and you know someone could say oh it’s cyclical but it’s just too long cycle you know it’s too long a cycle not to get worried about it and uh uh I’m really interested to see like is is is there is there plan um to try and find a couple more because you have to find a couple couple and and what can we do to develop them um to to make sure that there are viable options for for for Ireland in the next 18 24 months one more one more work on we’ll talk about before we we’ll finish up on a positive note and I’ve decided now as well we’re not going to we’re not going to talk TMO and Ronin Keller okay dragged back foot because it’s been three three days and I think people have had enough of it now at this stage we we we all know what the opinions are out there we’ll talk about the rugby specifically um so Peter omahan as Captain um and we can I think we’re starting to see why Andy Farrell has been so Keen to keep him in as C because Kay and darus has been filling in in the last couple of months James Ryan as we saw has gotten the wrong side of referees this season as well while playing for lster and darus In fairness he he spoke to us after the game and he was he was actually quite honest about how he’s he’s still getting to grips with how he’s dealing with referees and when to when to push and when to pull and when to when to ask questions and when to maybe just nod and smile and I don’t know it’s all coming together that there is a little bit of a vacuum of of don’t want to say vacuum of leadership a vacuum of of communicators with officials yeah that we’re gonna have to try get to the bottom of Before Peter Mani retires yeah and and probably it’s something we haven’t had a very successful succession plan in like and and also like kayen Doris is a world class player but he hasn’t had that track and he was and he was Ireland’s best player on Saturday no so like there exactly and then referees would know he’s a war class player but they’re not used to dealing with him um they haven’t built up that relation Rel ship that you build up over time with referees that Johnny and Peter and Brian had before him and Paul had H so that’s a challenge and even with C CIA you know like I remember um I remember Dwayne used to do be M Dwayne veran used to be a a massive kind of help to him it was like a co- captain at times and H helped him build his relation and then C has become an icon you know what I mean so when an icon of the game and the way you see it if you listen to ref Mike like he’s very polite he’s very he has an ability to make his point in a in a very non-aggressive or winging way um and the Rapport seems to be different than than kin’s getting at the moment or James Ryan etc etc um and that’s that’s that’s and it’s also and it’s also but it’s also different to the report that um Peter Oman is getting because he seems to be getting along fine with officials no absolutely I know 100% but I’m saying sorry uh Pete has built up Pete has has built up um enough of of a of a reputation or a relationship as a captain that he can do that but I changed the change of Jersey there like when Pete’s not Captain for monster and you’re listening to a ref mic they’re telling him to go away yeah yeah you know mean he’s an absolute Nightmare and actual fact I would say uh but so like he’s he’s not perfect either or as any of none of us are but um it it’s just that’s the challenge for kayin Is is that like like if if Andy if Andy feels kayin is going to be the captain of Ireland the next World Cup at least or longer probably if it’s successful he just needs to double down now and actually let him get that um those hours um uh with those referees and for referees to know that this isn’t a short-term Gap uh he’s not the guy filling in for the last 20 minutes because Pete’s gone off you know what I mean and that uh so it’s I don’t blame kayin at kin on this at all it’s just the transition that we’re going through um and unfortunately I will also say to be honest um I think kayin suffered a little bit because I think we we there’s a lot of voices in the Irish team there’s a lot of complaining and questioning and um second guessing throughout the matches uh and not just not not just not just for Ireland a provincial level at the moment as well um and they all talk and they all they all referee Irish teams in the Champions champions cup as well so you can build up a um a level of intolerance as well and G actually going oh I’m sick of refereeing these fellas and I’m not saying we’re at that level yet but um I certainly don’t think we’re whiter than white and particularly late in the game when referees are getting flustered and I would say I’d say the match referee was flustered because of those of the of how hard it was to referee that match like it was insane like I don’t I I don’t want to talk about a team old decision but it’s just a rook I think anyone who watched the match would have seen three or four times because the TMO looked at it it’s the the ker kick back but like you watched that in slow motion and back three or four times you can see four or five different penalties you know what I mean whereas yeah and and ref has to do $40 a game or0 those a game and try and get get like get him right so like it’s incredibly difficult plus the referee’s had altitude as well he’s he’s sucking diesel um it’s a incredibly loud intense um atmosphere like yeah I I I think referees and I’ve said this before is that’s one of it’s one of the the thing we don’t think about when we’re talking about quickening the game up and more ball and play time minutes well it’s getting they have to be able to referee with that fatigue as well you know what I mean and H and I’m sure that like and um I think we have to be conscious of that and sometimes less is more towards the end of the game in terms of asking for clarification and um and that relationship yeah and it’s funny sorah you just mentioned the the just allowed try as well because it it it did remind me it was funny on the day as I as I mentioned previously we’re behind the behind the glass and we didn’t have we’d won TV in the media room and we didn’t have sound on it so we we couldn’t hear obviously the interactions between the um between Luke Pearson and Ben White House same as the the people sitting in the crowd so I’m pretty sure there were there were almost three or four different opinions out there of of what he’s actually looking at someone was saying he’s looking at the neck roll yeah exactly someone else is saying he’s looking at the the foot hooking it back someone else is saying well was there a crck roll on Bundy and then someone else is asking was there a knock on from an Irish player so yeah he k k Keller could have easily come into side as well you could take that you know it was like fairness like every Rook is an absolute mess like it’s crazy um and they’re letting so much go because they have to because they want to get Bor play time and they want they want flow but like I I I can’t see how they would be in a in a frazzled mental state as well because it’s so intense and uh yeah and and obviously then if you have players that have a you know a very strong relationship with them or or as I said the iconic status which CA has and some of the other box at the moment um we don’t have that like Ty Furlong is not that iconic player at the moment that he was you know what I mean like uh he’s not at Peak of his form it’s not bad Porter is um Dan is but he was gone off like you know Johnny’s gone Gib Park didn’t play Gary wasn’t was on the was on the bench you know we don’t have um Hugo wasn’t there and he you know he’s he’s someone who referees would have a huge amount of of respect for yeah it’s it’s just a little bit we’re kind of in a little bit of transition Joe mccard is a young lock you know Ty B has it but he he wasn’t the captain um so it’s just it’s just we’re in a transitional period there and um it’s going to be massively over next year I think with far away um it’s one of the big challenges for the next coach um with far obviously having a big influence in it but how we develop that leadership group yeah growing pains I think is probably the best way of describing it we’ll see how it goes before we finish up I I let’s do one positive one final positive note because someone we’ve I don’t we’ve barely mentioned him aside from the fact that he has a he’s carrying a little groin injury and I think mus would like to see him play this weekend and he was the big story of last week and probably the reason he hasn’t been mentioned so far is because there were so many storylines since but Jamie Osborne we all had questions over how that was going to go last week and it wasn’t a 10 out of 10 performance but he he did absolutely fine and scored a scored a nice try yeah no really really positive debut for him like big ass out of position and actually prob probably the game didn’t unfold the way farl probably thought it would unfold and probably the reason they picked Jamie over Jimmy O’Brien um wasn’t as relevant because it wasn’t a a feature kick tennis didn’t really feature and being able to out kick them or at least match them kicking wise in terms of Lent didn’t happen so but he did the other stuff well and didn’t look frazzled didn’t look like he was scared by the occasion um and a read positive so that 100% that’s a big positive for Ireland and I think it would be great for him to be able to get more minutes this week and maybe if even if that was on the bench and coming on Center or whatever but yeah obviously there a de around his injury but no he can he can be very happy with his test debut yeah no you we we were we did get to speak to him after the game and according to him anyway he didn’t think the growing injury was going to be enough to to stop him this week but obviously you never know how how those things are going to go but um like he did have to deal with a couple of couple of high balls early in the game dealt with them absolutely fine he was definitely frustrated with the the kick down the touch line from Colby that he heend end up getting a hand on before it went out of play but in terms of the nuts and bolts of the performance um it was it it was all done without fuss I suppose is probably the best way of describing it which is which is what you want for a 2 or what a 22y old player making his debut at lus versfeld against the world champions yeah absolutely and like he’s not um he’s never going to be willly Theo like like he’s not a real second playmaker yeah um he’s not a um you know he never going to run back and beat six or seven people with footwork you know he’s a very physical player um and as I said the game didn’t really unfold to suit his skill set from a kicking point of view but everything else he did was was very tidy and and uh and done without any fuss and um it’s a good starting point for sure right we’ll leave it there final final call obviously it’s going to be hard without knowing what the team is going to be on Thursday rough prediction I thought I thought after the game game that we would we would be had a better chance of winning in Durban than we had in Petoria because I think we didn’t play like we we didn’t our attack was very slow to get going it did it a bit at the end and we started to find some holes but I can’t help fear that we’re going to get destroyed at scrum um from and in the first half this this this week um and uh that that’s the yeah I think this game this this is the biggest chest for farl to keep that record of of staying in games you know I mean this this this this could be this could be very this could be nasty enough right that’s that’s that’s that was a nasty enough that was a nasty enough way to in the podast no sorry yeah we have to go back to something positive um but that’s that’s based on the fact that I’m worried about our our injury profile and yeah um if Porter was out um I’d be very very worried yeah I suppose it really just does depend on what sort of a team can can be named on THS so put a pin in it until then live commentary of the second test South Africa and Ireland live on RT radio 1 this Saturday afternoon on Saturday Sport 4 pm kickoff Irish Time 5 o’clock local time in Durban Burch thanks a million thanks man’ and for the second last podcast of the of the Season we’ll speak to you again soon thanks