The Extraordinary Springbok Coaching Career of Nick Mallett

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Nick Mallett is a legendary name in South African rugby. In 1997 Mallett took over a struggling Springbok team and immediately transformed them into an unbeatable machine that would go on and win 17 consecutive Test matches – a world record at the time. During that time Mallett’s Springboks thrilled crowds with their entertaining and attacking approach to the sport. Along the way there were thrilling wins against the Wallabies and All Blacks.

But in South African rugby controversy and drama is never far away. After the record run ended Nick suffered a few heavy defeats and the pressure was on. He dropped popular captain Gary Teichmann ahead of the Rugby World Cup but the Boks still managed to finish third at that tournament.
Less than a year later he was relieved of his Springbok coaching duties but there can be no doubt that Mallett’s time in charge of the Boks was a thrilling ride that has lived long in the memories of South African rugby fans privileged enough to have lived through that time.

Nick Mallett is perhaps the best Bok coach not to have won the Rugby World Cup and in this enthralling conversation he speaks openly and honestly about his achievements and mistakes. Buckle up for a rollercoaster episode of Front Row Rugby!

00:00 Introduction by Peter
00:52 Missing out on the Bok job
02:31 Becoming Springbok coach
04:46 Talking Key Boks out of quitting
09:19 First Test against Italy
11:28 Winning the French series
15:54 Beating Australia in Perth
19:05 Beating New Zealand in Wellington
24:11 Famous win over the All Blacks in Durban
28:15 Winning the Tri-Nations
30:06 1998 End of year tour
33:58 Missing the record
36:46 Coaching philosophy
40:14 Man management approach
45:45 Losing to Wales
45:52 Heavy defeat in Dunedin
49:33 Dropping Gary Teichmann
55:00 Jannie De Beer’s drop goals
1:01:00 Semi-final defeat to Australia
1:05:45 Bronze medal
1:08:54 How to beat the All Blacks
1:12:07 Final Test against Australia
1:19:54 Funny moment
1:24:14 Favourite current player
1:26:57 These days
1:30:40 Trivia Question

Peter says: I love the Springboks and rugby is one of my favourite sports. Although as a sports journalist I am supposed to remain neutral, I always like to point out that before I became a professional, I was just a big fan! I hold a Masters Degree in International Journalism so at least you know I should be able to ask a good question or two!

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►Business Enquiries: peter@frontrowrugby.co.za

today you are going to get a front row seat to the incredible springb coaching career of Nick Mallet Nick welcome to Front Row rugby CH thanks very much for having me it’s great to have you here now just before we begin our conversation let’s have a look at today’s trivia question who captained the springbox against Romania at the 1995 Rugby World Cup now if you know the answer to the question you can put it in the comments section down below and we’ll also find out if Nick knows the answer but we’ll do that at the end of our conversation Nick let’s start in 1997 at the start of the Year there was a changing of the god Carl dupy became the new springb coach my understanding is that you were actually in contention but the feeling among sa rugby was that perhaps you were a little bit too outspoken can you tell us just how close were you to actually getting the job at that stage well I wasn’t sure how close I was I was an assistant Andre marro and so with Carl and um we gone on that end of your tour in 96 which had been quite a successful tour to Argentina and to Wales and to France France first and then Wales and um you know I I thought I thought we’ both contributed nicely to it and then there was there wasn’t an interviewing process it was just a decision taken by um by the executive to to give it to Carl and and perhaps you know and perhaps they were right you know I am I am outspoken and uh and I and I do I you know I’m less easy to manage than than Carl was and I think at that time um the the the executive were in a they sort of felt that they were in charge which they are of South African rugby but also they like to have a an influence over the coach and over the team he selects and stuff like that and and um you know I I understood that um if you were going to take a job as big as the springb job uh you needed to do it on your own terms and so perhaps they you know they thought hang on a sec we’d give it to Carl first see how he goes if he goes well then you know that then alls good and if things didn’t go so well then there was an opportunity again later on in 97 and as we know it didn’t go well and so Carl was out after the TR Nations and they did bring you in can you explain to us what the process was actually like in terms of you being hired because let’s face it it’s not like you buy the Sunday August and then you flip a few pages and see the springb head being advertised there yeah no it’s it’s uh it is very much uh you you get asked to to be interviewed um I got a call from from the CEO Who funny enough at that time um was Rion obolo who’s come back into rugby and he’s now the CEO as well so uh it was it was back in 97 and and Lou late was the president at the time and um I I was I was called in for for an interview with the executive and um I learned pretty quickly that um you know I was the only one being interviewed so I got up to to to Johannesburg and and then it was it was simply a question of just making sure that um uh you know that I that I was able to get what I wanted which was I was able to select the team that I wanted the team that ran out obviously there was a there was a selection committee for for picking a squad but the team that actually started the game and the replacement bench would be my responsibility and also I didn’t want any interference from um from from the executive I said that you know that you run the business side and I’ll be running the rugby side and uh and and also I wanted to be able to appoint my own assistant coaches and my manager and so it wasn’t too demanding I mean nowadays it would be seem to be that’s completely logical I mean every single International coach is is allowed that um but at the time it was it was a little bit more um a little not arant but perhaps they thought you know being the coach is good enough and we’ll tell you who your assistant should be and we’ll give you some advice as to who should play as well and I didn’t want that so um I I I I was fortunate things hadn’t gone well for for Carl and uh except in the last game where they did very very well against Australia but um be that as it may I was given the opportunity and thankfully they agreed to to my conditions Nick I’ve had quite a few former spring box on the show many of them who played under you some of them senior players and they told me some of them anyway that before they went on that end of year tour some of them were actually planning on retiring and you actually held a series of meetings with these guys and talk them out of retiring talk them out of quitting what did you actually tell them I I’ve been coaching bullant against all these provincial sites for the previous two years and we’ got to sort of six or seven fth six sth we never made a Super Rugby position but we were pretty competitive against the Bulls and Province and the Sharks and uh and so I knew the players really well you know we’d analyzed them with the bullan team and I knew I knew I’d been on tour with him in the previous the in 96 so I understood how good they were and and I also had a very clear idea of what team I wanted to select so it was a lucky start I was able to go to the players who I knew would start Henry honeyball at fly off I didn’t want him to play center I didn’t think you know I knew he could play center but I wanted him at fly off I knew the opposition didn’t like playing against Henry honeyball at fly off so I wanted him at fly I wanted um you know dick m in at Center he was playing some very good rugby at that time um obviously the the the the pack um uh it selected itself it was really an outstanding group of players but I didn’t want them not to go on that end of year tour it had been a difficult year um you know they’d lost to the Lions very un fortunately and then they hadn’t had a good um uh a good rugby Championship so I thought perhaps some of them would say listen we’d like a break for a couple of months and then start again the following year so I did a tour around so I went to I went to blo fontain Petoria joerg and to obviously to Durban and and I spoke to the guys in Cape Town and I spoke probably to 21 22 players who would be definite starters and ones who’d be around on the bench but key players and only one actually said that uh you know he didn’t want to go on tour he really badly needed a break and that was jabber you know who was a absolutely marvelous fullback and I remember saying to him um Juba you must understand that I this is going to be a successful turn it was a funny thing when you’re young you have such such confidence and I just knew that this team was going to Jael well and I knew that we could go overseas and perform well and I said to him if the side does really well and the guy who plays fullback does really well it’s going to be harder for you uh to get your place back um obviously the the incumbent player has the advantage you know he’s uh and I remember him saying listen Nick I’m just trying to get over a few injuries and it’s been a long season and I really need a break and and he said I’ll back myself for the following year and of course you know Percy had a really good tour and uh and and I ended up never never picking jbo despite the fact that I you know I really thought he was the most magnificent fullback he was I think at the time about 30 2 33 and and and first he was 23 there was a 10year difference so so going towards the World Cup in in 9 when Percy was playing so well I I just decided to keep him and um and I would have loved to coach Duba I think he would have done a brilliant job for South Africa but um he was the only one who said now there were a couple others Ur rant I remember talking him out of retirement I remember chatting to um well Henry honeyball wasn’t he didn’t know whether he wanted to go and uh Gary you know Gary was very frustrated with the way that the team had been performing Gary tashman and I remember saying listen Gary just give it a give it one more go give it this tour I promised you it’s going to be different and and I’m sure we’re gonna you’re going to enjoy first of all you’re going to enjoy the tour and secondly we’re GNA win the games and and luckily that’s exactly what happened and it was it was just a tremendous T just a fantastic way to kick off um your springb tenure hey if you’re enjoying this video why not consider becoming a patron it’s my dream guys to do this fulltime and with a small Financial contribution you can help me realize that dream the link and the QR code is appearing on your screen right now and I’ll also put it down in the description area for you to go and click on at a later stage if you would like to do so and by becoming a patron I promise there will be great benefits for members now let’s get back to the interview I remember it very fondly nick uh that 1997 end of year to I was in what they used to call Standard six at the time not to make you feel old or anything but obviously very special memories um so your first test match as springb coach was against Italy in Bologna when I ask the players how they were feeling before their debuts generally the answer is they were nervous and they were excited sort of at the same time how were you feeling as the coach it was strange we had a really good 10 days in Johannesburg and uh and there was a good feeling in the group um that the team was very happy under Gary Tash when the side I selected I could see the players felt confident that each player was in his right position and that they were you know they were really ready for this tour and um it was a it’s a nice relaxed feeling and I thought we were going to go in I must admit I thought we’d be you know 20 points up at halim against sley and go on to win you know 60 yard points to 20 I got it right we did win by 61 points to 20 but we weren’t 20 20 points up at half time it was funny the team went out and there was almost a um they were a little bit tense and a little bit um uh you know overeager so a couple of things a couple of overthrows in the line out um you know a few drop passes when if one of them had stuck we’ have scored uh the Italians scored off one of those overthrows and uh suddenly it was something like 2321 or at halim and I remember going into half time and just saying guys just relax you know honestly there’s a bit of feeling a bit of nervousness AIT bit of panic I wasn’t you know I certainly didn’t later on in my career I used to you know get a bit set up if they didn’t perform well but I remember then just saying to them you know these guys they can’t live with us if we just hold on to the ball you know just hold on to it you know dick just call the moves in the backline fors give them front foot ball you know you when we get to within 10 15 meters we let score the driving balls don’t go for pul kick for the corner and we just uh we kicked in we scored straight after halftime scored again and and then we got to the 60 but uh it was um you know it was a really nice feeling afterwards but that first 40 minutes was definitely a little bit more stressful than I had expected I can imagine so after that win over the Italians we played a two test Series against France we won the first test match despite a fierce fight back from the French uh in the second half and then there was that magnificent win over them in Paris 5210 all sorts of records were broken on that occasion how satisfying was it to win that Series yeah exceptionally so I’d spent a long time I spent nine years playing playing in France and had come back to South Africa and um it was it was a uh you know it was not quite going home but it felt a little bit like my second home France so um our first game uh was we were well ahead we were leading I think 3615 or something like that and again this little bit of trepidation came into the team they tried to last 10 minutes we tried to protect our lead and started kicking but didn’t kick accurately and the one thing that France can do is they can Counterattack really well so um when when they counter attack they scored a couple of tries and suddenly we were hanging on I think it was 36 32 or something like that the score at the end and and the lesson we took out of that was you know that side the French side were on their way to get to get another 40 yard points if we carried on attacking them in instead instead at 30 things we couldn’t believe that we the team was doing the team on field couldn’t believe they were doing so well and I think they started thinking okay we’ll stick it out you know and we’ll we’ll sort of try and flow it down and let’s play some conservative rugby completely the wrong thing to do so the preparation for the second test in Paris I mean I knew the French couldn’t live with with our physicality and our and our and our skill we we just were scoring some fantastic tries and uh I said to the guys we must you know honestly back yourself you must play play what’s in front of you don’t just kick it have a have a have a good look if if if if there’s a overlap and we’re in our 22 I want you to have a go you know if the overlap closes if they manage to scramble and they’ve got a good defensive structure then we kick after that but but you know this team if we get if we get up against the French I know them very very well they’re going to lose heart and when they lose heart they stop tackling and when they stop tackling they’re going to concede a lot of points and oddly enough that was exactly what I got that one right you know we started the game we scored off in 90 seconds I think Andre fenter ran straight through their team they didn’t look at all keen on on on having on having a test match halftime we were up by 20 odd points 25 points I could see some of the French came off they were crying the crowd was booing them um and I got into the change room and I said to them guys you’re on the on the cusp of History here I mean no one is ever beaten France at home you know by over 50 points we’re already 25 26 points up just keep going you know we we must keep going keep being positive remember what happened last week when we went into our shell bit and and and they came back don’t allow that and the team was magnificent they just really I must admit you know the French had to be very poor but we were very good I mean petero that day four tries magnificent Counterattack the last try I think there were 17 or 18 passes and Henry honeyball ended up by scoring the try it was the most remarkable game in that we tried to run off the field I went down into the change room and the and the team hadn’t come they hadn’t arrived yet so I went out to see what was going on and they were doing a lap of honor and when they came into the Chaser room I said to Gary geez isn’t that a bit arrogant you know we we’re not playing at home and he said he said Nick I tried to come off and the French committee guys the the their their officials said this crowd admired so much the the way you’ve played today they want to congratulate you and so it was a South African side getting being applauded by a French crowd I mean it it just never happens you know and so that was uh it was I mean early on in my career that was one of the most memorable games of my tenure really special memories indeed followed of course by those wins over England and then that hammering of Scotland 6810 when James small became our springb record Tri scorer on that occasion and then into 1998 neck Home Series wins over over Ireland as well as Wales and England and then it was time for the TR Nations and let’s be honest for the first two years of the TR Nations the spring box hadn’t really been able to get it right we went away from home we beat Australia in Perth now the way that I remember it as a school boy watching was just we got a win over the Wes away from home but having watched that match again you know not that long ago I think that we were a little bit fortunate to get away with that one what are your thoughts what can you tell us you’re 100% correct again it’s a strange thing the psychological aspect of of of rugby it’s not necessarily just the physical preparation and uh and planning and and technical side of rugby the mental side of rugby is is probably equally if not more important because there were a number of players who’d never won overseas you know there were especially I mean the guys who played for the cheaters or the guys who played for the Lions or that combined team whatever they were called when they combined the two franchises um they’ never won I mean a guy like Andre fenter had played 17 times overseas and never won a game so it doesn’t matter that you’re going with a spring box you still think this is an insurmountable um you know obstacle to try and win a game despite the fact that we were on you know a good winning streak and there was tremendous confidence in the team they’re still that undercurrent of oh we’re playing against Australia in Australia they’ve got Greg they’ve got loam they’ve got you know a good pack finigan a good pack of fours they changed their coach to Rod McQueen who was very very good coach and um there was a little bit of uncertainty and of course I think we were very lucky in that game I remember your taking a quick tap penalty in scoring when you know nine out of 10 times You’ have taken the three points but he was just so fed up that nothing was happening and he was a skillful enough player us that he just just went you know and and had the ability to beat a couple of Australians on his own and score but there were there was again a bit of uh nervousness in the team you know when we were on attack we’d send two or three too many to a breakdown so we didn’t have enough on attack and and at the end of the game we were defending about 30 meters out and I I’d got the some of the bench on and I think it was Ole Laro you played their scrum off and rolled over a loose rck I mean it looked to me like a penalty to Australia I mean the whole of Australia thought it was a penalty and um and the referee just said play on you know he just said that he’d fallen over and said play on you know you get that luck when things are running for you uh we were leading by I think it was 1312 or something like that I mean a penalty there Burke would have kicked it over with his eyes closed so it was um it was it or Morlock whoever was their kicker but it was it was fortunate you know I was unfortunate with some decisions as a coach but that was a definitely a day when we were on the lucky side we played badly and won and I was able to say that to the team guys you must understand we were really poor today this was our probably our worst performance in 10 tests nine 10 tests and going against New Zealand I said if we perform like that against New Zealand you’re going to get 20 points they’re going to put 20 to 30 points and that’s going to be very humiliating for us because we’re a decent size so we got to shake ourselves out of this Lethy and nervousness that we’ve just got it you know just take them on and that’s exactly what happened the following week memorable win in Wellington 1333 again we were tackling a lot in that test match but then right near the end Peter so scho that memorable try I’ve been told that the move was actually Henry Honey’s idea what can you tell us Nick yeah absolutely we were on the plan going over and I remember saying he was the best defensive flyer of the world’s ever seen and I still believe he remains so there’s no other flyer who defense like he does Johnny Wilkinson was great and and there other players around who do tackle a 10 but but he was devastating Henry and I knew that if I said to him can you think up an attacking move where you would would struggle to defend you know you wouldn’t know who’d be getting the ball because the key to that isn’t just running at the player one-on-one everyone’s going to tackle you you’ve got to put a bit of dark into that guy’s mind he’s got to think which of these two players is getting the ball and if he takes the wrong decision you know then the Gap is there for you and he said okay and we’d played Australia and there’d be nothing and it was about on the Wednesday I think before the New Zealand game in the coach he came to the front of the coach he said coach I’ve I’ve got one and I’d forgot night asked him you know it was such a long time ago I said you’ve got what have you got he said I’ve got a move I’ve just thought I’ve thought up a move that I was struggled to defend against I said just tell me on the back of an envelope it was a left hand scrum I put in um you know we us you know plays me short I go up there Blindside flank at kronfeld and I dummy to you because he’s he’s a dangerous player and they’re going to have merens at 10 merens is going to chase chase you because you know because he’s and then out of that blind spot we’re going to bring in the Blindside wing petero and I thought cheapers that that sounds good so at the practice I didn’t tell the Reserve side at all I said you’ve got to defend this move we had a little chat about it and the players themselves um they didn’t even walk it through they just said okay let’s do it and they were all such good rugby players that the timing that Henry honey Ball’s timing to stop The Blindside flanker your timing on the Run round pulled Franco Smith funny he was the reserve F he pulled Franco Smith and Henry just played ped into the Gap and he went and scored under the poles without a against our Reserve Team without having a hand touched on him we did it once at practice only once and I said guys we’re going to keep that until we get a left hand scrum in their 22 are put in when we in that situation we do it and we got a score and blow me down you know that was a wonderful wonderful execution exactly the same thing happened and it it it depends on a fly off taking it really into the do of of of The Blindside flanker because you’ve got to create you’ve got to create the hole between the blind the the open sorry the open side flanker and opposition number 10 as soon as they separate Peter Peter so had the Gap to go through it was the most wonderful feeling seeing that I can tell you we were in those days you didn’t sit up in a in a box we were just in amongst the crowd and when petero scored there was dead silence on the it you could hear a pin drop and I just heard from the New Zealand group off the left a guy just saying oh you know he realized that that we’ broken their line and I think we were up then I I can’t remember was it 133 or something like that they I think we won 13 six in the end but um you know luckily they started with a poor kicker and um they had Mertens they bought on in the second half a bit late but they had the um I’ve lost his name now but um he was he was the the guy who had all the skills and and thrills uh and uh and and was was about a 60 70% kicker but that day he missed a couple of kicks but we finished really well I mean that day I mean when I bought when the bench came on and Ole Ru who’ almost given us a a a heart attack in the game I remember he must have had seven ball carries in 10 minutes and uh and and I remember one run of his was about 20 meters you know bumping new zealanders off and we finished stronger than they did so even though they they held on to the ball more than we did during that day I just knew they were not going to score I mean if you if you’re playing up against a backline of of us one of the best defenses scum off and at that time best attacking and defensive com in the world Henry hymore by far the best defensive you had Peter Müller tackles anything that moves and you have Andre snan who tackles everything I mean they bought they tried to do all there and they had Christian Kullen Jonah lomu they had the whole lot they their best team that team that that played us the year before Po and um they just they couldn’t get through us they just could not get through us our defense was absolutely brilliant and it was one of that was one of probably the most memorable game that I’ve that I had with the spring bols that win and I can tell you that at half post four in the morning when you’re waking up as a school boy it’s wonderful to watch and experience something like that as well so Nick you say that that was the most memorable one but you know what something else that was very memorable we’re 235 down with about 15 minutes to go in Durban against the All Blacks as well as it turns out and we just complete one of the greatest comebacks in all of rugby history I think what is going through your mind when we’re that far behind with just a few minutes left on the clock yeah there was a lot of frustration because I I predicted to the players that this was going to happen and the reason why was we’d won two games away from home and um and this was our third game against Australia and uh and and Australia won I think one or yeah they had won one game against New Zealand and lost To Us by one point if they had beaten us uh sorry if they won or lost against us we were still going to have to play them in the final in the last game and that would decide the result so the players in their own minds thought this isn’t really that important I don’t want to injure myself in this game I want to play in the in the final game against Australia because that’s to win the championship and there was a little bit of just a relaxed atmosphere going into that um into that into that game and uh you know when you play the All Blacks who are under pressure they’ve lost to South Africa they’ve lost to Australia they’re coming overseas there was a huge amount of pressure on their coach uh John HT um you know they you never take it easy against against the All Blacks you’ve got to be up for them and if you’re not up physically for them then you’re get to struggle and they played really well in that first half we were poor we were dreadfully poor and it’s the first time I really got got stuck into that team at halim um you know I just said to them guys you carry on playing like that they guys on the bench I’ll start the next Saturday and I’m gonna you know you you are letting yourselves down so badly here you’re letting the South African public down so badly and there will be repercussions you carry on playing like this you know I’ll put eight I’ll make eight changes because I I I I have full confidence in the guys on the bench that they were they were outstanding players coming off the bench and uh and and I think that that worked them up a little bit because um we could we I think we were down 243 at one point 233 I think it was or five I can’t remember but we ended up by with 15 minutes to go I or 12 minutes to go I think uh years from the back of a line out scored a wonderful dummy didn’t break the score this and the team ran back I mean almost it was almost the kicker you know ran through the ball to kick it and the team ran back and I remember getting a message on um in the last 10 minutes and I said they are protecting their lead so they’re kicking the ball to us we must kick nothing to them we no kicks we’re going to hold on to the ball whatever five yards from our line I don’t care we hold we get a penalty we kick for touch we win the lineup we hold on to the ball and the last 10 minutes we had all the possession every time they got the ball if it was a turnover a knock on they got the ball they just kicked it back to so they were doing what we had done in that test match against against France when we were leading we thought we could just play about time and at International Rugby you can’t do that you know we then suddenly Bob skinat scored a try and then at the end of the game we get a driving ball and we get over the line and and and Dalton clams a try I think he scored it I hope he scored it but it was anyway it’s in the record books and and we and we won the game but it was uh it was more frustration funny enough because I knew we were much better than that you know I knew we we should never have been 20235 down at home against the All Blacks it’s an attitude thing and the moment they changed their attitude the team was good enough to score those three points and there’s that momentum I’m talking about the psychological momentum of the All Blacks desperate for a win and trying to protect a lead wow you just can’t do it you know and so you know moving on to that final we went in with the right mindset there you know we can’t protect anything we’ve just got to go and beat these guys score more points and keep scoring more points if we can and they were a really good team I mean the year later they won the World Cup indeed they did let’s talk about that match against the Wes at Ellis Park it was a much better performance as well from the spring box memorable win as well you remember the Bobby skinstad try uh with the dummy pass and all that what did it actually feel like when the referee blew the final whistle and we had won the trations for the first time uh just relief you know absolute relief it’s not it’s a strange thing you you you’re you’re so stressed as a coach you know how much it means to the South African public you’re desperate not to let them down and you know the fact that we hadn’t won a a um a rugby Championship yet was you know was weighing heavily and the fact that we we’ won three um we were playing Australia who was could still win three if if we you know we had to beat them we had to make sure that we got four out of four and uh you know it was uh the team played really well I mean that that is a good that was a really good Australian side I mean it was the one team that we we did we did battle with they were a team that had very very intelligent rugby players as I said they won the World Cup in 99 with that that nasty drop goal which I’m sure we’re going to talk about but I mean that John eels was a brilliant Captain they had a good tight five who managed to hold up against us gregan and lool were were as competitive as us and and and Henry so it was like a two heavyweight boxes fighting but we we got on the right side of it that day we played very well and as I said just great um that we that we managed to to win that Championship we don’t have to talk about that 99 semi-final I’d rather not quite frankly it was on my birthday it was the worst birthday present I’ve ever had in my life how awful nick uh end of year tour 1998 um we were still winning but maybe the performances were not as clinical I remember the late try against Wales and maybe a little bit of a stuttering uh effort against Scotland and maybe the Ireland win was a little bit better um but with the performances not being as good what would you put that down to so it was my I’ll take complete blame for that it was I think as a coach and I was quite young and it was the first time I was first time I 42 years old I think 41 42 and and I hadn’t I wasn’t experienced enough to realize that you’ve got to reset goals all the time you know you can’t you can’t say we’ve gone 18 17 win winning games and and we’re going to carry on for another 17 with the same team at the same it doesn’t happen like that the team itself um you know gets not overconfident but they get pretty much they’re pretty sure of themselves and so little things change you know well first of all what I should have done is prior to that tour I should have sat down with a players the senior players of which there were six leaders I could have taken and said to them guys let’s plan this properly I think it’s the end of a long year a really long year and I think what’s going to be helpful for this team is for us to mix and match in the games we play and um and in in those games perhaps we could in having one springb team that goes out every single Saturday the same and a B team that’s playing all these midweek teams what if we mix and match and that we could have maybe um you know sort of 50 % of the starters and 50% of the reserves the younger guys then we mix and match the other and and let’s try and get to this tour as a fresh group all competing for places and um and what’s your thoughts thoughts on this and you know they would have said no they would have said no because at that time you it wasn’t this whole thing about rotation had never come have never they didn’t even enjoy guys coming off the bench and playing they would get frustrated that they were being subtit Ed that you know back home it was almost as though they weren’t playing well and that’s why they were it wasn’t anything to do with that it was all about the number of tackles you can make in the first 30 minutes 50 minutes compared to a guy coming off the bench you know that guy will make um you know he’ll make five or six or seven in 20 minutes whereas you’ll only make two in 20 minutes so it’s about the team rather than the individual but that we hadn’t reached that stage of maturity yet and I hadn’t either because I should have had that discussion and I didn’t and I went with what the team wanted which was keep the team together and there was a bit of threat you know there was a threat because guys like Bob skinat was coming on doing really well and the team itself was saying well if Bob’s gonna come on Whose plac is is he gonna take Andre P’s Place Ry thought he was going to take his place um Gary obviously playing number eight and he he thought well here’s a young upstart you know now I’m under pressure and everyone loved Gary and they wanted him to stay so you know they were they didn’t really want Bob to come in into this whole mix and so it was really it wasn’t the right way I didn’t handle it well and I and I take and I take full Bland for that I should have I should have tried to explain to them that this end of year tour we we had to have a different focus a different goal to expand the number of players who could play International Rugby see how they did and then you know that was the end of 98 we had the whole of 99 to prepare for for the 99 World Cup but but I didn’t do that so I take I take that responsibility and and the team wasn’t as happy as we were in 97 under threat each player wasn’t quite as comfortable in his position there was uh un know practices the beat The the Reserve team was playing well the test team was getting angry with them it just wasn’t as happy a tour so but as I said it’s my job that was my job and I didn’t get it right even so we did win 17 test matches in a row so how disappointing was it to go down to England and miss out on the overall record yeah that was very it was very very disappointing I I I believe that um you know that we were good enough to beat them if we just played uh you know if we played up to our usual standards but um but we didn’t we didn’t play well that day and a couple of players went on the field they were carrying injuries uh they probably should have declared that they weren’t able to play 100% um and and unfortunately they didn’t perform had to come on off early so we had a bit of you know chop and changing uh which which disrupted things so so it was it was uh it was really disappointing and and you know the try they scored was an Up and Under between and I remember Percy and and and um Stefan to blanch I think getting confused underneath it and dropping the ball and and uh I can’t one of their players dived on it in the in goal area so it wasn’t as though they created a tremendous amount it was just we weren’t as sharp as we should have been and uh and despite that I remember you know we took a quick TW tap penalty in the very last move of the game virtually in our 22 in fact Rusty took it they started running and and I remember I think it was um ston broke the line and passed to yeah he’ got through and he had a pass outside him to Stefon to Blan and their their Winger he drew the fullback but their Winger Austin Healey I think it was was running back and he was very clever he actually ran between the two but but in the direction of his own TR line and when Andre Simon made the pass to Stefan he knocked it back towards his own try line and then fell on it and they managed to scramble it and finish up by not conceding a try but but had had that pass gone to hand to St you know he would have gone or Peter one of those two but I think he would have gone all the way and scored and we might have pulled that out of the fire because it was 137 I think so we could have you know we could have scored and converted but but the team it we weren’t in a good space at that time and and as I said I take the blame for that if I if we’ freshened that team up if I got them to agree to a rotation policy that wouldn’t affect the World Cup selection the following year that it was good for them because they could then freshen up they the the two tests that every one of them would be played they would give 100% and the other two tests they could relax and maybe take an easy week you know there was so much positive that could have come out of it if I’d got it right but I didn’t I didn’t speak the players didn’t speak to the leaders and didn’t get get the Buy in and what I did was I followed what I knew they wanted which which I don’t think was the right thing for the team Nick as an observer I would say that you played entertaining and attacking rugby how would you describe your rugby coaching philosophy very much very much that way I in defenses defense coaches were you know they weren’t specialists in those days you’d have a you’d have a forward coach and a backline coach and maybe a skills coach maybe a kicking coach but the defense coach guy who came in to just work on on defensive systems and structures happened after after my my time as a springb coach we moved from amateur rugby into professional rugby and every single year people were getting better at analyzing opposition and working out how they they were playing and and again that was something that I was probably not as good at as as other coaches and and certainly someone like Rusty for example was already doing analysis of the opponents while I was coaching so and would come to me with a couple of things I mean I’ve got two great stories about him and and both worked you know both both things he said would happen did happen and both of the of the one was an attacking play we had which we scored off and the other one was a defensive play which we did which which we scored off as well so it was um you know teams were were already doing that to us and I I obviously had to get better at that and I did when I went to stud France there and to Italy but um but at that time um I thought that we had really good backline players and I thought we had a great pack of fours and I thought we had really good skillful ball handlers amongst the fours and in order to play a a sort of complete Game 15-man rugby you can’t just have good backs and forwards who just like you know diesel tracks you know you’ve got to have guys there with good hands guys who can fit in I mean aarant could could run in like a backline player um James Dalton was like a loose forward Adrien Garvey played number eight before he went to tight head prop Mark Andrews played number eight in the 95 World Cup he was a lock crano OT had great hands Gary tyman fent Rusty Routh they all of them could play touch rugby against the backline and and do really well and then you had be who was big and strong so they had the physicality if we needed to be direct but they also had good passing skills as well with a great back three who could Counterattack score tries so it would have been you know it I thought it would have been a um it would to the detriment of the team to try and say we’re going to play a conservative game and kick the ball all the time and depend on on on defense we were good enough to score tries against anyone and we did um it was just as I said the mental preparation and perhaps some selections that I got wrong but the but the way we played rugby I was very proud of we scored in the last game we played against the All Blacks we won 4640 we scored six tries I don’t think anyone has ever scored six tries against New Zealand up well they never had it at that moment so I’m not sure anyone has since but uh it was a really really outstanding performance attacking performance they scored four but it was like a a sort of super rugby game on steroids you know it was a great game of rugby it certainly was and we’ll talk a little bit about that later on Nick in terms of your approach to man management a lot of the afrian spring box that I’ve had on the show have told me that they really appreciated your honesty and your openness something that they didn’t necessarily get from arrian’s coaches at the time how would you describe your approach to man management yeah you know probably a bit heavy-handed sometimes you know so probably maybe sometimes too direct uh there’s one thing I wish I’d done which which I which I know for a fact works and that’s learn the language of the of the player you speaking too so I could speak French and so when I coached in France D France I could say exactly what I wanted to in their language which makes them trust you far more easily than if you’re speaking in a different language and I wish I could speak better Africans that would be one of my just one of the things I I would do differently I would have gone on a six-month course and I would have tried to spend some time in P or something like that where there were only afas around so that I’d be able to speak to people like Andre fenta and urant and to um you know y f i mean they were they that was their language and if you want to try and win someone over you’ve got to talk to them in their language so um it it happened in Italy when I was coaching in Italy it took me two years to speak Italian well enough so that I could talk to the guy about his family about his kids about what he was worried about and then he could understand that I cared about him as an individual and that’s what I would have liked to have done better with this with the springbox i I think the I think the honesty I’ve always kept being direct and honest I I’ll will equally tell someone how well he’s played and I’ll give him a the demonstration of of what he’s done well um but that same player a week later if he’s given three penalties away and and stupid penalties that have affected the team trade out I’ll pick them up and I’ll say I’ve got no idea what you thought you were doing here you know this is just incredibly selfish and if you carry on doing that I can’t pick you because I can’t have a player who concedes three penalties and C you know three points and and and 50 m every time you know you do something that that you that you know breaks breaks the law so it’s that sort of directness and and honesty I think they appreciate but as I said there’s a soft side that that perhaps I should have got right so into 1999 I know that there were a lot of injuries like for example cor ker had to come in and Captain the spring box on his debut against Italy other players as well that found themselves in the treatment room and then we played that I suppose was quite strange at the time playing Wales away from home during our season I’ve been told by some of the players that before that match Rion obala held a meeting with the players and he said a couple of things that they weren’t happy about and you know they felt that maybe he didn’t handle it very well how do you remember that it was a it was a tulous week it was uh it was difficult we were it was a game that we’ added to our schedule um because I think they were paying us in pounds so the South African Rugby Union was making a profit out of it it didn’t really fit into our preparation we you know we had two home games then it was supposed to go into the rugby championship and um but anyway you know we you know we we took the game and um and then you know there was there was this there was the incident where where um the CEO came over and put across a um you know message to the players and to the coaches about a principle that the South African Rugby Union had taken and the play The Players you know it did shake them up you know it really did shake them up it was a it could have been handled better by both um the saru I mean it’s the sort of thing one would would expect that message should be put across perhaps right at the beginning of the Season before we even start Super Rugby so that you know so that all the players are aware of it while they’re going through the Super Rugby so when it gets to uh the international series it’s not a big surprise when selections are made um so to to bang it to them just before a test match um you know was wasn’t wasn’t a good idea and uh and you know I wouldn’t like to look upon that as an excuse but that was the the the least well-prepared mentally team that I’ve coached they they were they were thinking of other things all the way up to that Saturday and then of course um you know we we must we must remember that Wales um to uh who was the coach he came from New Zealand um and won the World Cup in 2011 Graham Henry Graham Henry had taken the Welsh job having been head coach of uh of ockland and and ockland blues had been won had won all the six Nation Nations games and he’d had a year with them and so we’d already had that tough game the year before few with you mentioned we didn’t perform particularly well against Wales in our first G that was at a neutral venue as well um it was in London and uh playing at you know playing Wales at at the um at the wals stadium was um you know with a team that wasn’t mentally focused on the game you know it just wasn’t a good idea and and and we and we were deservedly beat we honestly that was you know that was just a poor performance and then we were beaten quite badly overseas in the tri Nations as well first against Australia and then in done Eden 28 nil sorry I think it was actually the other way around New Zealand was first and then the Australia match um just I want to focus a little bit on that 28 nil in dun Eden when you look back I I’ve been told that you guys were preparing for a wet weather match and then you woke up on the Saturday morning and it was like the sunniest Winters day in the history of Oto um when you think of things like that and then obviously we know about the way that you publicly admonished David Von hestler and kfy DET toy postmatch when you look back do you is that a match that you wish just never actually happened funny enough you know it was a strange game we we had a TI just allowed the be scored you know there was nothing wrong with it and it was just before halftime I think we were seven 70 down um and and would have got us back into the game NAD R I think was was went through and they they said he knocked it on but it had come off his knee and um you know to get back in the game you’re playing away against New Zealand with two two young halfbacks is a very very tough thing and the interesting thing was I didn’t admonished them I didn’t the the Press um made a hell of a thing out of it because that’s what the Press do what I was asked asked a question what do you think the difference was between the two teams and I remember saying well Marshall and Mertens have had 80 caps each they’re very very experienced and played really well today David vanen and KY DET toy have had zero caps first cap and KY I think is his second or third cap and so experience is a big thing you know and they’ll learn from this but there was a big difference in and I’m 100% honest I mean that’s not I wasn’t I wasn’t um you know trying to take I’ve selected them so I it wasn’t as though I was saying you know it’s got nothing to do with me it’s all the players fault it was just I was just making a fact about halfbacks and experience you have to have experience halfbacks to win big games but I was you know I didn’t have H I didn’t have Henry and I thought I was going to take both to the World Cup so I had to find out who were my second best and I had Smiley swool and I think BR and stron had played the other were playing the other game and and so I was giving two a chance and and I thought it was logical and made sense and I thought after the game what I said was logical and made sense but of course you know the the Press like a scapegoat and the coach is a scapegoat so the moment I said anything about any player they said I was trying to pass the blame of of me onto a player it was you I was learning lessons all the time about about what to say and what not to say to the media because the you know when you’ve gone 17 wins in a row you know you didn’t really have to explain much did you you know and then suddenly suddenly you’re on a you know you’ve had a couple of losses and each time you try to be honest about them and what went wrong and and you get sometimes reported in a different way or they take a different fla to what you say and that that that is that’s a learning curve for for for a coach as well for me as well so it wasn’t I mean listen it no one liked to lose no one likes to lose by 28 points to nil um we didn’t we beat we got beaten by Australia similarly 32 points to I can’t remember 10 or 11 or 12 and it was dis that was World Cup yet but I knew that wasn’t the team that was going to go and play in the World Cup I knew that we had the potential to get through and um the real disappointing thing was that that tour put me under a lot of pressure as a coach and um and it would have been nice to have had a mentor to could phone me up and say listen Nick I’ve been through the same thing um you know you got to stick to your guns this is you know what you were doing in 9 798 was exactly the correct thing stick with it you know you’re going to the World Cup in 99 this is just you know speed bump um you know stick with it instead you start thinking gee I’m start making changes I’ve got to I’m the coach I’ve got to make decisions and uh and that was the Gary tashman thing which was which I acknowledge as my biggest mistake we’re going to talk about that in a second Nick but I just wanted to say thank you for clarifying the Press situation there and I think you know that I’m going to ask you another question about press conferences a little bit later but let’s talk about Gary you’ve brought it up that was going to be my next question how did you come to the decision to drop him you know it was a it was a you know I’ve said a poor decision but at the time um you know he’ been he was carrying a few injuries and playing on and playing on because that’s the sort of type of person he is he didn’t want to let the team down he wanted to still lead it and um but he had lower back issues he had a neck injury he had a he had a sciatic nerve or some problem with his knee and so practicing was difficult Monday Tuesday Wednesday and and I I wanted I very badly wanted him to take time off so um I did phone um Ian McIntosh and I said to him listen Mac um you know we we we need to give this guy a break he’s got to have six weeks off go to maius or something and then get six weeks really proper training to be ready for a World Cup because if he carries on playing Curry cup now he’s not going to be fit enough to play in the World Cup and he’s not going to be able to hold on to his play um and ma said listen I coach I coach Nel whatever they the Sharks he’s my captain and he’s gonna play so I didn’t get much help from Old Mac you know bless him he’s a wonderful wonderful guy and when I’m talking about a mentor you know maybe he would have been a good guy for me but um uh you know in my mind I said if you have to pick a World Cup team playing in a World Cup final tomorrow would you go with um uh with sort of Gary carrying an injury or would you go with um Bob skinstad who’s coming back from an injury but I’d had to doctors who told me that he was going to be fine you know he was going to be back to his best so um again you know you’re under pressure and you decide okay well I’m probably I’ll go in with a you you know someone who’s going to have the possibility of breaking a game apart and um and it was such a poor decision you know it was such a poor decision because I completely underestimate the leadership issue you know I I thought that Russy would take the captaincy I offered the the captaincy to to Russy who I had a good relationship with and I thought he was a very bright guy and I thought he could carry the team with him and he’ have very similar type of um uniting attributes that Gary did and um and he he he didn’t want the captaincy he said I’m 24 too young to his credit he said you know I don’t think you should be dropping Gary you should still be in the team and um and and then I I offered it to Y because he was Captain of of the bulls and uh and very experienced and he he said well you know if Gary’s he also back Gary but he said if Gary’s not going then then you know I will be captive so so um the leadership aspect is really important because Gary made everyone else 10% better the fact that he was in the room he could speak to you know Mark Andrew speak to Henry honey ball he could have a little chat to Adrian Garvey but at the same time he could go to Austin he could go to the afans guys and the way that Gary played which would be first out of the trenches you know if Gary said you’re going to you know I want you guys to tackle or let’s make sure we good under the high ball you could be absolutely certain the first tackle would be Gary that he would make and the first guy under the high ball he was the and then of course the Africans guys respect that they don’t they respect guys who put their bodies on the line like they do so you know that leadership thing was massive um and it was a sort of breakdown I you know I don’t want to make excuses it was completely incorrect that student but I must admit that having played the whole Curry cup you know Gary was you know he was he was sore he really sore and going in you know you only have a two weeks to prepare for a World Cup it would have been really difficult so um I would have had to rest him at the World Cup basically for the first three games and then get him going in the quarterfinal semi-final but they’re not excuses they’re just these are the things you have to deal with as a coach and and in retrospect you see where you get it wrong and I mean I’ve spoken to him enough about it and I’ve spoken to the enough about it you know it’s something I wish I could have back you know I wish I could have have had that decision back um because we got to that semifinal we got to a situation where we were we drawn the game and um we were tied we went into extra time and more than anything else you need a good leader in that period you know you need someone to say okay guys you know now now you know from this kickoff you know we’re going to tighten it up we’re going to do a driving moreall we hope we get a penalty for collapse more if we don’t get a penalty y I want you to attack The Blind Side because you know we can then set up the forwards again then I want a long kick down field you know don’t panic and uh and you know that we needed that we needed that and um Gary gave that to the team so so as I said you know that was I I strongly believe that we would have won that World Cup if ID had him as as captain of the side we got ourselves into that situation with a with a leader who the who the team respected but didn’t have the leadership qualities that that Gary had so when you’re in the semi-final or going through into a final um that little extra from from from a great leader uh would have I think would have carried us through let’s talk about that 1999 Rugby World Cup Henry honeyball is another player who missed out on the majority of the action Yanni deir was the man who came in for him we beat Scotland in the opening game and then we had those two sort of laborious wins over Uruguay and Spain and then into the quarterfinal and Yanni slotted five drop goals all of them in the second half who came up with that plan so we were playing golf actually in the week before the England game we had a day off I think it was on the Tuesday or the Wednesday our day off and I was playing in a four ball with Brendan fenta myself and uh I think it was Y and bronan stron and I was on a cart with um with Brendan fent I you know I think I remember it going something like so Brenan was on that cart with me and he’d been red C started because he he’ stamped on a player on the ground but he still stayed on because he was a you know he was a good leadership leadership guy in the group and um and I remember saying to him you know gez you know I’m concerned about this England game our back Line’s not attacking the ball nice and flat Henry’s injured and and and Jenny takes the ball quite deep he takes it a bit deeper behind the advantage line so we can’t get off our backline into an attacking shape on the advantage line and across the advantage line which makes it more difficult for our fors to get into the game to wreck aggressively and um and so and I said you know they don’t give a lot of penalties away so they’ve got a good pack of forwards and I’m trying to and I was trying to work out what’s the best way to play this game I said and he said well you’ve been asking you’ve been asking Yanni to play like Henry honeyball and he hasn’t been doing very well why don’t you ask him just to play like yany de so I said what do you mean by that and he said no well Yan’s a kicking fly off and we’re in a quarterfinal and um he loves goal kicking I come from the free state and he’s he from the Free State you know he’s a great goal kicker so so I immediately went to to Yanni who was on Yanni was he was in the four bow but he was with BR and I went to Yan and I said yany what um I be you know do you you kick goal drop goals he said yeah yeah love kicking go so I remember say to but you haven’t kicked any in the World Cup yet why why haven’t he said because you’ve been asking me to play flat you know so I said to him okay well I promise you don’t don’t have to do that anymore um I want you to you know this is going to be a really tight game and they going to be opportunities and if you think you’ve got a chance you know kick it over and then he said okay well he likes to set up the situation so I said where do you like to kick it from so he said I like I like to kick it from in front of the poles which seems to be fairly logical but um funny enough I know that n v have liked it from from lineups because he could get a long pass from Tommy dupy and you take it and turn the you know that angle he saw the he saw the the the poles really clearly and and he could kick left or right foot he could kick it over anyway Yanni said just bring the ball into the middle of the field and pass back straight back and I’ll kick it over and he was so confident I thought cheaper let’s try that practice so we went to rather like the Henry honey ball practice move went to the practice and I told the the reserves listen put pressure on him and we started on the 22 um and we had a you know we had players taking it up not NE a long way down the field but just taking it up away from a left hand scrum or a right hand scrum or a line out take it into sort of halfway into the middle of the field and then another loose forward from there so it’ll be Peter Müller taking it up and then Andre fenter taking it around the corner or a r taking it around the corner with cleaners and then a pass straight back to Yanni and from the 22 banged it over and then we did it you know from the other side of the field banged it over from the 20 and we did it 10 times he didn’t miss the didn’t miss a drop at practice not one and and the opposition would were getting off the line to put pressure but he got himself your y path was so accurate and quick and his hands were so good he just turned onto his right foot and kicked him over and I said to him well listen guys we get ourselves into the situation in their half it’s easier kicking a drop goal with Yanni than it is to score a try I can assure you of that and of course the first half we never got out of our half of that game you know they they we were the referee was being particularly difficult his I remember his name was and um and we were getting penalized and England were in our half and and we were battling you scored a great try up against the touchline and we went into half timee pretty much Even Stevens it was about 2321 or something like that and then in the second half we had the opportunity first opportunity and I think it was in 17 minutes or something like that 12 to 17 can’t remember exactly the number of minutes but we kicked five he kicked five drop goals in that period of time I mean my I remember just my my memory of that is seeing Martin Johnson their Captain you know literally at every rck he was looking then he’d look up and he’d be looking over his shoulder as the ball went through the poles you know and of course Yanni Yanni’s skill won us that game you know obviously being told about his drop goal ability you know working out a way to get the ball into an area where he was comfortable how he could kick it and they just you know the England side was so worried about goal kicking ability they didn’t want to give a penalty away so they were actually a meter behind the last man’s feet so they were so deep they they backed their defense in case we tried to attack but that but that doesn’t help if you’re getting a guy kicking a drop goal you know they never got anywhere near him you know so that was a very very uh you know satisfactory win it really was and what was good about it was it it came from the group it wasn’t just you know top down it was in discussions it was you know getting the opinion of a Player working it through with the with the guy who was going to execute the plan and getting the forwards in on it and it was great you know it worked here it really was great okay Nick I think you’ve elaborated a bit on that semifinal throughout this discussion let’s just focus on it for one or two questions perhaps ironic then that that Steven lham would kick the drop goal that uh I mean that wasn’t the one that knocked us out of the World Cup I know there was a penalty from Matt Burke later on but how much of a sucker punch was it to lose to the wallabies in extra time that way oh it was it was really it was very very painful because that was the final you know you have to understand that France had done the most remarkable job on on New Zealand you know with the second half half to play that they’re capable of doing but they can’t repeat you know they not they weren’t a side that could repeat that performance the following weekend and so I knew that if we’d won our semifinal and and and and France won against New Zealand I knew that we’d won the final we’d win the final France because I know French well I’ve been there for nine years they just they just can’t maintain that that concentration for that length of time they got better at it but still at that time I mean I know for a fact because I know the French players and I spoke to them I mean they got pissed for the for for three days I mean that Sunday night Monday night Tuesday I think their first practice was about Wednesday you know because they they had outdone themselves to beat New Zealand I mean they never thought they were going to do that so the the World Cup final was actually South Africa against Australia that that was those were the two strongest teams in the world at that at that time and if we if we managed to pull through and getting you know Yan deo’s penalty at the end of the game Still Remains one of the most unbelievable Feats of goal kicking that I’ve that I’ve ever seen I know n b is now standing goal kicker and I mean he’s that he you know he’s kicked over some kicks that are just absolutely you know you just wouldn’t bet on them at all but this one that the I think it was the North Stand of penham was open they were doing building repairs and there was a North Westerly wind blowing so it was coming from the right angle coming and hard coming in through that Gap and we got a penalty about 40 m out on just inside the 15 I think it about 15 M on the right hand side so he’s kicking from the wrong side for a right foot kicker and he’s kicking with a wind coming in into him off the right to poles that are to the left of him and I remember saying you know I mean this is a one in 25 chance you know for him to kick this over it’ be an extraordinary feat and he kicked it right through the middle of the P it wouldn’t it didn’t de it was as though that Bo he was destined to kick that over and you know when you when you get out of the fire like that you know and you’re back in the change room you really believe that maybe Fate has given you that chance so that you can win the game and we did get ahead I mean we got ahead we were 3-0 up in that um and and then we unfortunately met that kickoff and they got back to three all then it was nip and Tuck nip and Tuck and we were fighting and fighting it was whoever played in the opposition half and I know I’ve spoken to lock subsequent to this and and he was kicking that to kick a dead you in those well still now you can’t kick the ball over the in the in the in goal area kick it dead it’s a scrum back but if you kick a drop and it goes over it’s a 22 Dropout so they they were trying to kick a drop goal dead so that we would have a 22 Dropout and they would be able to have the ball in our half and then play and hopefully get a get a penalty so that that Ki that drop kick was on the run you know he what didn’t steady himself he was running and try to kick it just as hard as he possibly could and and he hit a huge hook you know it starts 10 meters outside the right hand pole and then goes through the middle just one of those things in life you know and then of course they did get a penalty but we never would have played played in our half like we did in those last five minutes because we were trying to obviously get back and we and we had not play ball in hand rugby to try and get back there and we made a mistake held it on the ground or whatever it was and they got but that last three points is irrelevant because I know that if we’d been leading we’d have played it very differently you know and uh and we had the ability to because um you we had a good goal kicker well a good kicker in Yanni and uh and it was just one of those you know what can you do in life as I said you know o Laro rolls over and there’s a there’s a game in Australia and the ref doesn’t give the penalty and we win it and we have this long streak that the streak should have ended right there and then but then I would have I would have you know I wish he’ penalized me then and then I and lo had missed the drop goal you know it just things just to if you if you like things to work out perfectly obviously a World Cup win is is much more important and speaking of which we played the in the third place playoff after that incredible win by the French over them in the in the semi-final I got to ask you Nick a lot of people say that it’s a match that they don’t really want to have to play in but having won it you’ve got the bronze medal are you happy in that moment or are you thinking damn it we should have been playing in that final in a few days time instead yeah you know we we played our our semi-final on the Saturday so I we were all so disappointed you go to the World Cup to win it you don’t go to come plays come second or third or fourth you go to win the World Cup so when you lose it you don’t want to play that third and fourth place you just don’t so I actually said to the players I want you to go go somewhere go wherever you want go with your mate go for three nights Saturday night Sunday night Monday night Tuesday night I want you back uh on sorry sorry you can go Sunday night Monday night Tuesday night Wednesday I want you there Wednesday evening we’ll have a practice on Thursday we’ve trained enough we know what we’re going to do th because I thought we were going to play against France I didn’t think France were ever going to beat New Zealand and then of course I’m lying on a couch and watching the game and and I see that New Zealand are getting smashed in the second half and now I say we playing New Zealand again in the L and that was you know that was horrible because because I really knew that France if they’ won or lost the semi-final we could beat easily but New Zealand was that you have to you know front up again and then there was a lot of thinking you know I thought how how am I going to get our guy to be uh you know to get right for this game and and I was very lucky that there was just the easiest thing was to say to them this is Henry honey Ball’s last game as a springb he hasn’t had an opportunity to play in this world cup because of a hamstring injury I’d like you to play for him today you know don’t worry about the third fourth place that doesn’t matter as much as I me obviously we want to win but what I really want you to do is don’t let don’t let Henry down today and it was the right thing to do because he was so respected by his teammates that we played really well I mean Breon pora scored the most miraculous try that day you know showed what he was capable of doing in the future chipped and footballed it around and beat Christian K to the put down I mean it was great and the end of the game we could have actually I think we won 2415 or something like that 247 quite close but but the end of the game I mean we could have scored another try us went down The Blind Side and he had 10 met to go and had step to blanch free on his right hand side he just had to pass the ball and step and with have scored but I think he wanted it now that he wanted to score try himself gave a dummy and was tackled and but but we’d won the game we’d won the game anyway so it’s bittersweet you know you don’t really you don’t really care but I was really happy for Henry honeyball that his only World Cup game was uh was a win and uh and the players played their hearts out for him so that was that we got that right least and a win over the All Blacks no less Nick speaking of the All Blacks you had a great record against New Zealand as it turns out after that 2,000 win at Ellis Park that incredible match that you spoke of earlier the 4640 that meant that you played the All Blacks seven times and you beat them four four out of seven the only springb coach since uh we returned from isolation that can boast that kind of record is Ja narber so I’ve got to ask you what is the secret to beating the kiwis you know I don’t think there’s any real secret um they are our biggest challenge there’s no question about it that South Africans look at New Zealand as our toughest game whether you know whether at one moment it’s England who’s the best team in the world the next moment it’s Ireland um maybe France can do a you know a job on you at at some point but but through longevity and through history and tradition New Zealand are are are the team that South Africans want to play against and we we want to beat and they’ve been the team that has comfortably beaten us for for especially since we got back after you know you know into into from from isolation and we started into the new Democratic South Africa and we were able to to play New Zealand you know they had a long period of dominating us we we we struggled we struggled we beat them in the World Cup Final in 95 but I mean you know you think of the number of times they had beaten us and beaten us very comfortably so so you have to be up for it physically you know they are a team they respect us physically and they can match us physically when they get it right I think we are more physical but they they are a team that can really get up for it they’re very skillful you know outstandingly skillful backline players play a beautiful brand of ragby but um but sou Africa has the ability and the players um to do it if we get the coaching right if we get the selection right um if we get the captaincy and the leadership right in the team uh we can beat anyone in the world and we’ve proven that with with with the last two World Cups under Russy arasmus and beating the British Lions so at the time I was doing it it was um you know it wasn’t habitual that we beat New Zealand if you go back before I mean we we hadn’t beaten beaten them in New Zealand I think since uh since uh since that tour in 1981 I think that was the last time for 17 years that a springbox side hadn’t beaten New Zealand in New Zealand and um and you know it’s one of the things that that group of players can be very proud of is our our record against against in fact I think we’ve had a we had a winning record against everyone except for Australia Australia I think we we we played them eight times and I think they beat us five out of out of eight and and I give them credit they were they were a very very tough team to beat I mean we the they got Rod McQueen as coach um and they had a really good group of players I mean there’s no question as soon as new if Australia have a top front five you know then they’ve got the backline and the loose Trio to match anyone in the world and at that time they had a very good and a leader who was a lock forward so I found Australia harder to beat we found Australia harder to beat at that time than New Zealand and speaking of Australia after that 4640 win against the old black CIS Park we played Australia uh in Durban and Nick you made a few comments in the press conference you mentioned the press a little bit earlier uh about match ticket prices can you remind our viewers what exactly it was that you actually said no it was actually before the game it was uh on the Friday um I was I was I was moving out of the team room and there was there were two ladies outside and I said guys this is private this is the team room and they said oh sorry we you know we were just trying to you know and they were carrying pen and paper and I thought they wanted the players autograph so I said to them there’s a there’s a photo opportunity at 10:00 and uh you can get their autographs there and one of them said to me Nick we’ve been trying to get tickets we can’t get tickets for the game and I said no no it’s it’s really difficult I mean they are tickets but they’re very expensive and so and without introducing herself or saying that I’m you know that I’m a journalist and can I quote you uh you know she took down a lot of the stuff that I said about you know that is expensive and that it’s a Pity that that that um you know the South African Rugby Union was charging uh was charging the Sharks you know what they were charging for the game in fact I see now that the provinces are still complaining about the amount they have to pay sorry so it’s a you know it’s it hasn’t gone away and and at the time the ticket prices I think were 220 Rand a ticket um and and you know the average the average monthly salary back in in 200 and and was 2000 was between 3,000 and 5,000 Rand so if you took a family of four that was a, Rand you you you know was gone out of your budget so they were very very expensive for you know lower income and middle inome people it was the test matches were really only for companies who could afford to go and guys who were very wealthy and um so I don’t you know I don’t back off from what I said and I really do believe that their ways and means of earning money uh through you know through sponsorship and through television rights and stuff that you don’t have to Ping the the guys who go to the game but it was It was obviously an opportunity for the South African Rugby Union to to say listen you’ve stepped over the Mark here you criticized South African rugby it’s got It’s been public um and uh and so you know there was a disciplinary hearing but fortunately you know they came and and and um at the disciplin hearing they said you know listen we we’d like to settle you know if you and and they settled so you know I was quite happy to fight it because I knew that uh that I would never have said those things if I had known that I was going to be quoted in the newspaper and I wouldn’t have said it at a press conference it was uh I just wasn’t aware that that person was was going to quote me on it so listen the relationship had broken down that I think we got to be used you know we’ve got to understand that as well um they wanted a different coach I’d been there for uh three years and um I’d gone through a World Cup cycle my first year into the second second cycle uh I would have had to stay for six years and maybe they they just thought no this what you know we don’t want this guy around for that length of time and and um you know it was a sad way to finish but but um you know it was it was through an agreement there was no found guilty or anything like that and um and you know I was able to go and coach in France coach St France and we won two French championships in the two years I coached them there so I got my confidence back I knew that I was a decent coach by by the fact that that having left the spring box I was able to go and do a similar job with another good team professional team overseas and that was what was important I mean you’ve got young children they’re going through school um you 43 44 years old it’s a long time you’ve still got ahead of you in terms of earning money so um you know the financial side is important but it was it was the right time to leave Sor both from my side and from their side given what you’ve just said I have to ask you Nick do you think that if we had beaten Australia in that TR Nations game in Durban that that might have been something that would have seen you continue a little bit longer in the job no no I don’t I think that the decision had already been taken by the executive um that um that it was necessary to have a change of coach you know I I I’m absolutely honest with you I work quite well downwards so I work well with my assistant coaches I work quite well with my players um and I’m re and I’m pretty um open as as we’ve said in a couple of the moves that we have I’m open to discussions I love the players coming to me with ideas I love the coaches coming to me with ideas I’m not dictatorial in that sense but I don’t like working upwards I don’t like working with people telling me what to do I’m not good at that so I think in this day and age or that day and age you had to be good at working upwards as well as downwards you know you had to be had to be able to manage expectations from your um from from your executive and uh you know I I just I just wanted them to concentrate on the financial aspect of rugby and the business side of it and leave me to do and I’ll do two years if if you don’t think I’m good enough after two years then get someone else that’s fine you know but halfway through a contract if you given and agreed to a contract you know then then don’t interfere you know that’s that was my view of it and you know right or wrong doesn’t it doesn’t matter you know it’s a it’s was two differing opinions but you will find now that that every coach has what I wanted russio Routh runs the team he runs all the rugby side in fact he has far more control over things than I ever did I mean he he would have been able to say s kist you’re going to step out of Storm’s rugby for three months because we want to make sure that going to be fit for a World Cup he’s he that’s within it wasn’t within my my authority to do that but now as a director of rugby and head head coach of the spring box he’s able to control and that’s 100% correct it’s exactly the same with Alex Ferguson or with Aon Wenger with plop you know the top soccer size the the manager the guy who coaches the head guy controls the sport he controls the r the the the the playing aspect and the selection aspect and his coaches everything around that so he works downwards and then the business side is an owner or or or you know in oure in South Africa it was an executive and um and and they leave you nowadays they leave the coach to get on with it and they say listen we’re not happy with you we’ll pay you out they’ve got the right to do that at any time at any time they as they you know did with me I mean they could have said to me Nick we’re going to pay you out your contract we just don’t feel you’re the right person to do the job they didn’t have to find a ticket prices thing to try and fire me without uh you know without having to pay me out that’s what I was a bit upset about you know that it was it was clear that that that clear in my mind anyway that um that the ticket price issue was being used as a way as a means to get me get rid of me without having to pay off my contract and um and obviously as a 44 year old with kids at school that that didn’t work for me so I’m I’m just glad that you know it’s a long time ago and uh and things we work through all those things I mean I made the mistake with with Gary tman I think that the South African Rugby Union didn’t handle that situation with me very well either Nick I’ve had dick mure on the show before uh he told me a hilarious story about how the players gave you sleeping tablets on an end of your tour in 1996 when you were the assistant coach quite a funny moment I wonder is there a particularly funny moment that you can share with us from your time as the head coach of the spring box ah I I would have I would have used that one I would because it’s the sort of thing that I think is fantastic and that and that is the gives you an example of how you bridge the amateur to the professional game we were in that era where the amateur guys you could still play tricks you know you could still go out and have a few beers you know it was you had to win as a professional rugby player but guys weren’t doing you know uh studying the opposition for two hours a day going to gym for two hours a day then having a defense session for an hour and then having a you know cool down in ice bath you know that wasn’t happening in our day so we were still practicing you know once maybe twice a day but uh it was just a more relaxed atmosphere I think from The Amity area we hadn’t completely gone across to being fully professional yet although the Europeans would say that the southern hemisphere we we got there quicker than they did and and I think from a physical point of view we did we had big strong powerful guys but uh you know what they did was I thought you know in retrospect very amusing and and and and well done to them it’s the sort of thing I would have probably done as a as a player myself but uh you know funny they they’re often hidden from you you know the the funny issues are between the players and other players and catching guys out and all that but there was a there was an incident when I was coaching The Barbarians which I could tell you about and uh and uh in The Barbarians team there was always one guy who’s not an international and I was I was coaching and I said listen if I coach we’re playing against a very strong side we’re playing against New Zealand at the end of their tour so I said I’d like a combination of Australian and South African player to on which I will select and then I’ll select a guy who’s not an international and I selected viell who’s played all those caps that all Capal Scotland but it was right back when he was about 24 as a tight head prop I said i’ you know I’ve seen him play and he played for Northern free state and then went to Free State and I think he’s he’s got the ability to play had never been to blooman really prior to he was born and grew up in velcom so to go overseas to London was a massive thing for him and the team that I selected had in it some very some naughty guy I mean Victor matfield is and and and um jacqu f in particular the center was they very naughty guys so you know Vel was you know now he was a one of the boys and he was walking around and in that barbarians week you have a hell of a party it’s really only on Thursday night that you concentrate on the game on Saturday but Monday Tuesday Wednesday are basically bonding getting to know the other guys and having fun and at one of these dinners um you know he was a red wine drinker so what they what they decided to do was get every guy in the team to go up and have a toast to him with a red wine drink and say just well done congratulations on getting he has a glass of red wine so you drank between 12 and 15 20 I’m not sure how many glasses the red one but he really had a badir so he went to bed and then what they did was they they he fell asleep in a pair of red scans you know that very tight red skin I mean probably tighter than F DEC skans you know and he was lying on top of his bed Not underneath it you know and he was sharing with ja F so so he’d gone to sleep and it was only sleep for half an hour and it was half by 3 in the morning or something and they switched the light on and they had someone filming him and Ja F stuck him in the bed and said come on we late for the bus we late for the you’ve got to get this and he jumped out of bed and they fil they filming him jumping out of bed and he can’t he staggers off and then he just he just fell forward into the cupo and then he pushes himself onto his feet and he said I mean it’s half an hour after he’s just put his head and they’ve got it on film I mean I just thought it was hysterical that we got that and that was a Fant we play we were the second barbarians team ever to beat the all black so you know that’s s the works but those sort of naughty things that the that the players do it’s not so much the coach you can’t really get involved in that type of stuff but it was uh it was I’m sure that happens on every tour of those sort of naughty aspects sides of things that’s a wonderful story uh Nick is there a player who is currently on the field that you admire um oh GE was now in the professional era I admire them all you know it’s the most if you think now if you think that where does the season start and end you know it just doesn’t it doesn’t start or end if you’re a South African playing in South Africa and you’re a springb you play the URC the moment you finish the URC final or the invested Cup Final you go straight into preparations for the June July tour which is which is you know we’re playing against um Ireland is going to be this year the best team in in in in the northern hemisphere definitely and the team we struggled to beat the most so that’s hugely intense you then go into the rugby Championship you finish the rugby championship and you’ve got URC and then you go on a November tour and then you enter the rugby Championship again I mean where do you ever stop so you know I think that the global season is something we’ve got to get um and that’s something that needs to be worked out nine maximum 10 months in a year but there’s got to be two years off I mean logically you would like to take off you know December January you know something like that but it’s a question of the northern hemisphere fitting into the Southern Hemisphere or vice versa um as to the players that as I said I admire them all at the time they used to be a time when a Dan Carter would just stick out you know or Johnny Wilkinson would stick out or a nce berter generally fly offs because they’d be kicking goals and winning World Cups what I loved about the South African World Cup win was the unity of that group it wasn’t 15 it was 23 it wasn’t 23 it was 30 you know because the guys who weren’t in this in the team were practicing as the opposition no no I’ve just got so much respect for professional rugby rugby players everywhere and even though Ireland um you know perhaps got they got knocked out in the quarterfinal the way they play the continuity and the way they play is just incredible you know that the team is better than the individuals in it and in our South Africa our team is better than each individual in it um I think dupong if you had to put me on on the spot who would you say two players that I I think ieth the just a colossal an absolutely brilliant Springbok rugby player um possibly won that game against uh against France on his own with that pulling back the pass and then dupon you know dupon is without him France are half a team with him they can be the best team in the world so those two guys if you had to push me but I respect for every single professional R we play at the moment Nick we’ve seen you on Super Sport quite a lot what else are you after these days uh well at the moment I’m visiting my grandchildren I’m reaching that age I’ve got I’ve got um I’ve been fortunate I’ve worked a lot in Europe so um uh you know I know France well I know Italy well my son’s in in in in England um my daughter’s in Amsterdam our grandkids are over Side Travel usually travel quite a bit I play golf quite a bit I work with super sport when I can do talks when I can um when asked to do talks uh um and and yeah you know I probably probably had the the best life possible I mean how many people in the world can play the game they love can be a player coach of the game they love can be a coach of the game they love and talk about the game that they love and I’ve been able to do all of those and I’m you know this is my coming up to the 68th birthday so you know I’ve been you know truly truly blessed and uh ragby is as given me that opportunity it’s it’s just been the most marvelous sport to be a part of and and I’ve loved every single moment so I’ll still be involved in rugby I’ll still when I say involved even in a voluntary capacity as I get older just as a consultant or a mentor you know that’s that hopefully you know people can you know bounce ideas off me and and and tap into the experience that I’ve made I always think you learn the most from your mistakes so to be able to advise other people not to make the same mistakes that I did I think that would be fantastic Nick you’ve actually just uh reminded me while you mentioned you know the incredible life that you’ve had a few years ago well I say a few years ago it’s probably 25 years ago now there was a book that came out it was a biography uh I think John Dobson was actually the writer the current stormers coach’s father uh Nick Mallet The Story So Far don’t you think it’s time for an updated autobiography no no I think I think you know I’ve got a wife who enjoys privacy and uh and there there’s no question that if I wrote If I wrote about what happened from The Story So Far onwards I mean there are so many incidents and issues that I would you know dig up and raise and that it would be a you know it would be all in the papers again it would all be a you know and I don’t think it’s worthwhile doing that I don’t certainly not for her and and not for me either you know it’s part and parcel of life and uh it’s your ability to get over I mean I I took a knock with that with a springb um you know with a springb situation um but I managed to get back on my feet with that with coaching at stud France coaching in France being able to win a big Championship twice with them the second year was really difficult it was 2003 2004 and it was World Cup year and it’s always difficult getting your players back after after Rugby World Cup you know they that’s the big thing they don’t want to play you know for their Club after rugby World Cup it’s sort of like difficult for them to motivate themselves um we just have to look at the Sharks this year with their springb cohorts and how difficult it’s been for them to get them going and that that’s what so but we managed to get soon we won the championship again and then coaching in Italy you know that was a real challenge coaching a team that is burgeoning new rugby um nation and you know how they’ve kicked on how they’ve got into the rugby um into the Six Nations they’ve reduced the number of of of points that they have when they do lose and they you know they did really well one two and Drew one this year fantastic so yeah it’s been uh yeah it’s it’s it’s it’s been a good life it certainly has let’s finish off by looking at that trivia question again who captained the springbox against Romania at the 1995 Rugby World Cup do you know the answer Nick I do Adrian r that is exactly right audri R I actually had him as a guest on the show as well one of the early episodes of front row rugby that is the correct answer audrian R we won that match as well he scored two tries and then he scored another two tries in the test after that against Canada and so him and Chester Williams were actually our two top try scorers uh in 1995 with four each Nick let me say it was wonderful having you on front row rugby today an absolute pleasure I think that this is actually the longest interview that we’ve ever done on front R rugby thank you so much for your time it’s a real pleasure you can cut out as much as you like please pleasure chatting to you thanks a lot last time on front row rugby V mayor was my guest you can go and watch that video it’s appearing on your screen right now next time Chris Bost will be here