NZ’s top sports agent, Simon Porter: How do we fix our issues with rugby and cricket?
Simon is the CEO Halo Sport – our biggest sporting agency, and his insights into sport in NZ and sponsorship contracts is unrivalled.
In this episode we go behind the scenes of NZ sport like never before.
We discuss the reality of being a top sporting agent, representing both Razor and Ian Foster during the All Blacks coaching saga, his role in connecting NZ Rugby with Japan, and much, much more.
#nzsport #nzpodcast #nzrugby #nzcricket
0:00 Simon Porter: a career in the shadows
2:33 Introducing Halo Sport
8:11 Razor, Fozzie, and the All Blacks
10:32 The beginning of the path to being a sports agent
14:47 Warren Alcock: Yoda
20:28 A Steven Adams interlude
23:25 Does a playing background help as an agent?
27:30 The importance of golf to the art of the deal
32:50 Back to the Hawkes Bay
37:21 Dentsu and the importance of Japan
41:05 Transitioning athletes out of sport
51:28 Managing the dreams of young athletes
54:08 Watching the 2019 RWC Final with Richie McCaw and Dan Carter
55:42 How do coaches differ from athletes?
59:00 Simon Porter on the current state of rugby
1:09:53 Representation in rugby league and cricket
1:17:03 Crossing over into sporting organisations
1:21:04 Hannah and Simon: a sporting power couple
1:24:24 Simon on women’s sport
1:31:53 An agent’s relationship with the media
1:34:07 The difference between an athlete agent and an athlete manager
1:36:31 Beyond contracts: movies, ad campaigns, and books
1:39:54 Advice for aspiring agents
1:45:03 Last words from Steve, Seamus, and Simon
Simon Porter welcome to between two beers fellas how you doing good thank you um I feel like your circle of friends and contacts have been waiting for an opportunity to talk to some podcast host about you we’ve got some pretty good stuff how are you feeling about today uh reasonably anxious I think it’ be fair to say didn’t have a 21st so maybe it’s payback from from that yeah no 21st issues between den and npia working in Wellington and rugby commitments and stuff like that so didn’t happen didn’t happen all right in the first email you sent me after we asked you to come on you said you’d spent your life and career in the shadows which is where you think an agent should be but you’ve agreed to step out of the Shadows today I wanted to start with asking why um uh genuinely I think that um when you get offered an opportunity to do something that might put you out of your comfort zone um or that other people may not get the opportunity to do uh you should do it right like you’ve got to be uncomfortable sometimes and um you know it’s not many people get the privilege of doing this as as a couple of my mates have reminded me as I’ve maybe had some bu regret um so yeah like why not I suppose yeah it’s quite a unique space this you come in and we’re going to unpack your your life in some of the best and most interesting Parts but has it made you reflect coming in like have have you been thinking about what we might ask um I have been trying to remember certain things that might come up but no honestly I haven’t tried too hard you know we’ll just have a yarn and we’ll see where it goes and we’ll React to what gets thrown at me I suppose I think full disclosure I need to get this out early I was an aspiring agent at one point in my life if we shut the door on that have we well I don’t know I don’t know we’ll see how after this after this check how this check goes but like this is a like I’m so interested in your world and the world of the Shadows that you say that you operate in I think it’s going to be a real fascinating um I w’t say expose because I’m sure there’s stuff you can’t talk about but an interesting look into what you do and how you do it and why you do it as well I didn’t ignore an email from you asking for a job or no no no no no that was that was K now he was very good he was very generous with his time as well I just realized I don’t think I’m I’m cut out and the hard negotiation side of it we might see by the end of this okay so we’re keen to start with an overview so you’re the boss of Halo Sport and along with Warren Alcock lead the best and biggest sports agency and management team in New Zealand on your books uh and these are just a few of them Steven Adams Razer Richie mcco Dan Carter Sophie Pesco Ian Foster Bowden Barrett Val Adams Jimmy mcco Willie apata you’ve got everyone and that’s like I say that’s a shortened list um and we’ve got a lot of questions we figure we’re just going to Rifle through them so okay first one is Razer is negotiating his contract as the new All Blacks coach what is your role well me specifically probably not a heck of a lot other than talking to Warren Alcock so we have a team um philosophy at at Halo I suppose and we have kind of different people do different things so kind of get your specialisms or or whatever so um Warren Warren’s role really is to neg neate or if if I was doing I did Leo McDonald’s say assistant coach contract you are literally just negotiating the negotiating with the New Zealand Rugby Union around um the terms and conditions of the contract um you’re also dealing with your client around do you want to do this you know what are some of the things that you know you’d want to see or you know what are the important things to you and and you really just have to take them on a journey you know in terms of making sure that they’re really committed to the job and I guess that’s probably leaping into how you do it with anyone but it’s you know you are trying to find information um first and foremost and really testing them and their decision- making and then you know that you’re negotiating as hard as you can to get the best deal that you can in that situation and and that’s not always money you know like often it’s the you know the terms and conditions it’s it’s um you know all the extras that come with it it might be sabatical it might be time off it might be you know support in one area of your life that you think might be affected if you take this job or something like that so there’s just a whole range of different things that you have to go through and and so it’s kind of like a team effort right so Warren does the contract and you’re more in the sort of international space as soon as they’re looking at something overseas yeah so we we we have um we’ve kind of always sort of set it up that way so you’ll have your domestic clients so I’ve always had a raft of domestic clients as well and then you know Warren and Henry and Kent and Joe and Dale Etc will have their um you know their domestic clients and then because overseas is a little bit more specialist and I think probably because Warren didn’t like working around the clock in time zones all around the world we kind of did it so that if somebody wanted to go overseas there was one person because you can’t talk to every Rugby Club in the world it’s just not conceivable so what you really need to do is have Partnerships or you know um officers around the world working in their markets who are talking to those people so you you’re kind of like the sand you know the middle of The Hourglass you know the information’s coming in and then you’re processing the information and and giving it out so um you know so that was sort of my speciality I suppose was doing the overseas deal so talking to the guys in France talking to the guys in UK talking to the guys in Japan you know Warren would be negotiating New Zealand deal if it was someone who’s got um you know who’s looking at potentially staying but maybe going you know and then Warren and I are just working together trading notes working out how to play it sometimes um and then you know the sitting down with the player and just and and their family or the support network or whoever it is and helping them make the best decision because it is complicated going overseas you got tax you got um you know just living arrangements you’ve got like the contracts never really line up up because we play in different windows from hemispheres and you know are you going to be able to stay and play for the MTI All Blacks or are you going to have to try to get out early and you know there’s just all those sort of little specialities overseas player rules like how many restrictions there are on how many overseas players can be in each team and all that sort of stuff so it is really quite specialist so we’ve always kind of tried to divide the labor up that way um I’ve just spent a little bit of time in New calonia and Tahiti and I this is completely off topic but come on man tell us about your holiday no when you’re when you’re negotiating with a French Club for example do you speak French no yeah so do you ever find yourself in a trap of speaking English in a French accent to try and get your point across uh have you have you slipped into that yeah look you do sometimes just just just to make them understand just yeah and and I like my mother taught frch at school and they made me do Japanese and I gave up Japanese as quick as I could and I never bothered to learn French cuz I was like why on Earth would I need French or Japanese and now I run a business that work in Fr in Japan so that’s that’s that’s one thing I’ve often reflected on uh in the past is like gosh if I’d uh only um been more of a linguist and and actually taking advantage of those opportunities yeah I reckon I’d be a desert yeah if you want the player you need to we need to meet the ter it plays yeah I reckon I reckon a l um the thing there’s a lot that caught my eye when we started researching you but one of them was that you represent fuzzy and Razer yep so when the all black coaching stuff was going on you know everything you guys know everything like you you’ve got all the information is there any is there ever are you ever put in a compromised position where you kind of need to be serving your client but you know what’s happening on the other side and that can work its way into your thinking yeah like there’s you I think the reality is New Zealand’s a small place um the industry is tiny tiny tiny so um you do have instances where you have conflicts of interest um and you know that’s probably a pretty good example of one um you know but conflicts of interest you know you declare them you you be open and if people are okay with it then you know you just have to be really careful with what you share and and how often you share it um well with with just basically what you share and as long as everyone’s aware of it it’s it’s okay but I think the like particularly with New Zealand Rugby and I guess it’s anywhere we’re not the decision maker right like we are not petitioning Mark Robinson around who should be the all black coach or we’re not petitioning people who should be the coach of the hurricanes or the blues or whatever you know you they are running their process and in New Zealand those processes are pretty you know fullon you know you’ve got to do presentations and interviews and there’s lots of people involved and all that sort of stuff so you know when when you are really just negotiating a contract um you know I think those those conflicts are are pretty manageable um and as long as you declare them and you and you work with them it doesn’t mean that you don’t feel a little bit uncomfortable sometimes CU you you’d be lying if you said you didn’t um but you just have to work through it and be as honest and transparent as you can be and none of that’s new you know like we’ve been doing this for a long time and you know I think the proof in the pudding a little bit with that like if we hadn’t have managed those conflicts the way we had we wouldn’t still be doing what we’re doing so I think we’ve you know found a way to to navigate our way through those sort of choppy oceans I suppose you you say you’ve been doing this a long time and you have where did it all begin how did it all start ah um I’m a hawks Bay boy bleed black and white um grew up in went neor boy high school and kind of always wanted to be a lawyer like that was just I just remember wanting to be a lawyer um don’t really like my my vision of a lawyer back there was kind of a cross between LA law and sitting in a room probably a little bit like this and little old ladies coming with a problem and you helping them like generally I just thought lawyers helped people solve problems that sort of stuff and um so that was always attractive to me so I I bailed off followed the well Tron path down to denan um to go to the university of Vago and that was in ’96 which is the year rugby went professional the Warriors had started in 95 I think um so any thought of being an agent or anything like that like there was just none of that you know I just wanted to be a lawyer so I set off I did law school um and then um I summer clocked at bgy in Wellington and then I was just at the Rugby Club one day I was playing Prem Premier rugby for the den sharks down there and Warren elcock just hit me up um just at the bar just and his story might be different but he T me on the Sher basically said what are you doing next to year can I buy you beer and you know we had a few beers and at the club and I agreed to go in and meet him in the law firm um and he sort of just kind of explained what he did so this is in 99 so you know 96 9798 four years into it and um you know offered me a job sort of first first law job out of school was working with him so it was more doing sort of sports law um and so I’d draft contracts to Tar a rugby union or I’d kind of you know help Warren with whatever was going on but it was kind of because when rugby went professional in 96 there was kind of like a massive Lolly scramble and everyone tried to grab hold of their players so probably wasn’t until that sort of you know 98 99 2000 that everyone had sort of got their ducks in a row and and the the dust had settled you know there was a competition in England there was a competition in France there was a competition in Japan and and then it sort of started opening up a little bit and the whole foreign Player thing came into it and well let’s get foreign players to come and play for us because now we can pay people to come and pay for uh play for us um on a much grander scale that was happening the whole time right brown paper bags and all that sort of stuff so and that’s kind of when all that sort of started so I was just working for a warrant I was doing lots of other law as well um and then and my Rugby was starting to go well okay for me back then playing a bit of I sort of came out of the age groups with a taro and played a bit for North Taro um and then went up to counties and went overseas and played lower league uh Union over in England and um I was kind of deciding what to do I had an offer to play rugby for exitor who would second div back then my wife who was black Fern um wanted to come home at some point because she was trying to ramp up for a World Cup and uh I applied for a job with um a competitor actually and I I got back to home or or the office in in England and I had this message during Warren elop urgently and I’m like God someone’s died or you know something so or or have I [ __ ] something up from a case ages ago that so what’s going wrong and he just what are you doing I’m like what do you mean he goes why have you applied for them um you know there’s a job in London go meet B Campbell um you there’s a job for the there if you want it so went up to London and they offered me a job to be a full-time agent in England and I ran around having absolutely no idea what I was doing and here I am 20 years later still doing the same thing so as part of this reflection for those that don’t know Warren is the goat right he yod he is Yoda so that chance meeting where you have eight pints in the pub and he sort of takes you under his wing like that is that the reason that you are where you are today because you linked up with the great man absolutely it had never even sort of crossed my mind back in like it just wasn’t a thing it wasn’t an industry it wasn’t anything and um yeah that moment those eight Spates at the denan Sharks Club rooms sort of set me off on a path and you know he offered me less than half the pay I was getting in Wellington and and all that but it just was something that you know you’re like wow I I love sport like I’ve Sports just you know I grew up playing anything I could watching devouring anything I could um and I loved you know law I loved studying law I you know still think of myself as a lawyer um so um you know the opportunity to combine those was just you know too good opportunity to refuse really we’re going to talk about you soon but can we just talk about Warren for for a minute um tell us about the scope of what he’s done over the 30 years and all the the contracts he’s written and yeah tell us about Warren um so when rugby went uh professional you know the the rugby Wars and the Murdoch and all that sort of stuff he again he was just a bit Johnny on the spot I suppose and that he was a partner of a law fir I think who’s partner down there and he was mates with the Jamie Joseph’s and the Josh corals and the Adam penes and and all those kind of guys and you know Warren is um he’s Yoda like I mean that just explains him pretty well he’s a wise he’s always been old to me you know he’s still not that old now but when I was young you know that that Wise Old codu that just um doesn’t say a lot but is really meaningful and you know really loyal and trusting and and it’s just you know he was the right person at the right time um to sort of help you know navigate Waters of where rugby could have gone had it gone professional New Zealand Rugby so he he started along with David Jones and David hman who kind of were the you know they the Mount Rushmore of the industry I suppose in New Zealand Rugby because they were the ones that sort of um you know cornered the market and and helped everyone make those decisions early on and from there Warren just you know David and and Dodge have gone on and done other things um and and Warren just stayed in the industry I mean it’s just he’s done it all other than probably jump on a conference call at 11:00 with a French Club CU he didn’t want to do that so he got some other Muppet to do it for him but he’s you know all black coaches all black players I mean he’ll have a Telly somewhere he’ll never tell you but he’ll have a tell you of the number of All Blacks he’s represented um all black coaches um very humble but I know it means a lot to him you know like and and he’s um he’s just the goat you know like it’s literally hard to he’s just done it all how old were you when when when he SED up next to you in denen sharks 40 club uh I was over the age of consent but uh that’s what you’re 21 I think 20 20 21 so early 20s is a pretty impressionable time are there any lessons in those very formative years that have stuck with you all the way till now is there any knowledge that he imparted on you yep um and can you share that with yeah yeah no no Absol and it actually was more um uh I was doing a criminal case I think a player probably gotten some what he had actually now I remember had got into some trouble driving issues and you know dealing with the police and this and he he was just like mate you never want to deal in favors in this game never get yourself caught where you where you’re dealing in favors because if you do a favor for someone then someone’s going to want a favor back and you know when you’re in the service industry and you’re representing players and and rugby is you know it is a volume game because it’s not not soccer where you get mbappe or you get LeBron and and and um basketball and you know you need a lot of clients to to make a business out of it but you can’t trade a favor for one player or one client for a favor for another like you just you just can’t and you know I know that that probably drives people crazy who we have to negotiate with and all that sort of stuff but you can’t you can’t choose your battles when you’re representing someone and I think you know particularly as a lawyer um you know that’s our training and and you are very much their spokesperson their voice you’re taking instructions from them on what they want you don’t you don’t get to choose you know like if if they want to push harder you don’t get to say oh well M they actually paid that guy a little bit more last time so just take a back seat you can’t you you are Full Throttle every single negotiation because that’s what your client absolutely deserves so soon as you get into favors same with the media you know can we chat off the Record even no like it’s it’s confidential it’s not my information to give you I you know but so that is probably the biggest one that I just that runs courses through me all the time you know you can’t just can’t trade in favors and another big one from very early on was Warren Gatlin actually um Tomy you only have one reputation in this game once it’s gone it’s it’s gone so you know be careful with your reputation that’s good advice that that comes back quite a lot as well um so as Warren so I saw the Steven Adam on the website right that’s $50 million deals is that Warren no unfortunately not no uh so that’s uh well it is Warren in that um Warren has the relationship with Steven um but what we do with Steven is commercial stuff so any of his commercial rights down in New Zealand um and a lot through his basketball camps that that he that he does so a lot with the metesh yeah they I think they’re a sponsor yep the foundation and and the people that run that that Steve’s obviously part of so that’s kind of how we you know work in with Sten yeah so Stephen Adams wants to come on between two B podcast to do some stuff with us absolutely call Warren every day for the next year see if you can get a one so presumably then Stephen Adams would have his own Jerry Maguire kind of a situation in the USA yeah he he’s probably more an Entourage I think actually he has his agent um who does his basketball deals but then he has a business manager that sort of pulls everything together I mean those I mean those Sports are just out the gate right like the you know I mean I often tell you know rugby players you know you got to think about this like you’re a CEO of a company you know like you’ve you know you got to have your accounting in order you got to have your finances in order you got to have all that sort of stuff you know you’re your own business you’ve got to run it you know you take that to the next level with the amount of money that those guys are earning over there and you think about the tax structuring just you know where you’re going to be resident and with all the different state laws in in America and all that sort of stuff it’s big business and then throw in the endorsements and all that juggle it’s just a completely different ball so what you’re you’re telling me as Ballers the show with Dwayne Johnson is very different to your day-to-day cuz this is an impact on my potential decision to get as an agent or I genely think that um like even Jerry Maguire like the only thing that’s relevant is probably the credits at the end when you’re just reading a whole lot of small print that’s probably the only relevant thing and that in that uh yeah our job is a lot less interesting than a lot of people actually how common is that sort of a really Comm but you know you’re just looking at it from the outside and that’s that’s fine and and all jobs like that there’s plenty of jobs that you know you probably sit there and go well that would be awesome but you know I think most careers are a bit like that aren’t they there’s you know you all you’re really trying to do is um enjoy as much of it as you can like you know workers inconvenient that’s why you get paid to do it like that’s that’s just it’s part and parcel of it so um yeah look there’s plenty of good bits there’s plenty of perks but um it’s not Jerry Maguire it’s not ball it’s not not for us anyway do you watch that stuff though maybe I’ll just go and try that yeah oh maybe probably not quite my style I don’t think but oh maybe maybe 15 years ago possibly um I spent 30 minutes on the phone with Lauren yesterday and it was a great chat but it sort of started off you know quite serious and by the end of it he was throwing a bit of shade and he um he kind of he talked about the competitive like element of the business and the friendship and the BS going around he reluctantly told me that um you held the north otago goal kicking record which was recently beaten is this oh look I held a few records okay uh no yes the um all I could do was goal kick right that it’s all I could do on the Rugby field and I actually got to witness at a reunion a guy breaking my record for the most points in a match um for North ataro which was great to be there and right and and watch Benny uh McCarthy beat it yeah yeah were were you knocking around when Eddie hicki was playing yeah holy [ __ ] yeah down yeah and then um sorry n you guys want he was a zingy boy and then um we played New Zealand divisional 15 yeah well he played I sat on the bench and then um he settled in Hawk’s Bay so seen haven’t seen him for a while but yeah no I know really well yeah um did he wear gloves while he played I knew I was waiting for the gloves probably everyone of do about that Warren tell you about the gloves tell the well he was a shareholder in Shock Top and I was working for him and they made the gloves so he can beat it were you one of the pioneers of of the glove game look I was not a Pioneer in anything I did on Rugby the guys that I idolized that were playing for Taro at the time War them so I followed and War them just like you know any 21y old batler does right like they sit the trend and we do it that’s that’s how it works is that why you followed Andrew Mertens and his tackling style according to Mel Robinson I actually think I was worse than them too yeah that was Mel’s come in um and she’s giv us a few bits and pieces but one of them was yeah ask about your tackling technique I don’t have a technique cuz you know I I actually was very adapt in getting into a position where you didn’t have to tackle I think that was that was the art back then was just just getting out of position so you couldn’t quite make the tackle you know just pushing a little bit too far and making sure you had a very good seven that would clean it up or you know just not quite getting there that’s look that’s I’m there’s a reason I’m an agent and not um not playing the game but but I do Wonder are you a unicorn in that regard and that you have the crossover from having played into to the agency or or is that PA of because is there any like 12 13 accredited in New Zealand yeah there’s not many um oh I hardly played let’s be honest it was it was I feel you’re doing yourself a disservice yeah but I mean Craig inis uh you know he’s he’s um he’s probably the one and then Joe Wheeler who works for us who who played um I mean everyone else I think most most other people would have at least played Premier rugby oh kle Manu uh um play professionally uh he’s an agent and everyone else would have at least played Premier rugby I think um yeah I mean everyone’s clearly got a massive interest in it it’s not you don’t need to be a rugby player to do this it’s just but does that knowing some of the I guess it’s probably more when you’re having conversations with younger players having had skin in the playing side of the game does that help guide some of those conversations oh I think so like a guy like Joey wheeler who’s not so long out of the environment absolutely go like me they wouldn’t have any idea you know and it’s completely irrelevant really to them but you know you’ve you know you you understand their training demands you understand what they’re going through um but you can learn that just from conversations with agents like I don’t think it’s a um it’s certainly not a prerequisite it probably helps um there’s lots of other things that I think make a better agent than having been out in the middle like a good golf swing great gol swing is as is very crial so I spoke to Warren and I was asking about you know like are the deals done in the pub is it kind of like you know is that where the networking St he’s like no it’s on the golf course he’s and Warren said he’s quite new to the game and it got him quite frustrated that you would always have these meetings on on the golf course um but I did want to talk about that part of the job because um it can be sold as work you know you are developing relationships with with Ang that my friend on the right years on the course but genuinely how important has golf been to establishing relationships with your clients well the main one is what it’s really helped is keeping my relationship with my wife after children so that I can play my golf during the week and not on the week that’s that’s the main one no no look it’s um everyone’s busy right like um and and everyone is busy all the time with your rugby player and I think that’s you know a lot of people look at rugby players and and say oh they’ve got an easy life whatever they’re busy you know like and they’re tired and they’re you know they they need to chill on the couch or sleep extra or get massages or whatever and so and we’re no different you know we’re really busy and you know the opportunity to go out in a beautiful setting have some banter hit a ball um maybe have a brew afterwards you know that’s I mean whether it’s your mates or whether it’s with work or whatever um you know there’s just that that bonding and that relationship that you can you can build with people it’s just a really you know it’s it’s a nice little time you don’t have any distractions you’re not picking up the or you shouldn’t be picking up the phone you shouldn’t be doing emails you shouldn’t do whatever you can you can cover a lot of ground and and talk about things so um yeah I’m probably pretty you could go on a bike ride with them I suppose but most guys want to play B of golf I guess you’re so uh immune or normalized to celebrity that playing 18 with Dan Carter or Bowden or Damen McKenzie that’s just playing 18 right y it is yeah which probably yep I agree you are immune to it yeah but yeah we you know that’s you know you’re that’s part of person the job and and you know if that’s where they want to catch up and that’s what they going to do then you know who am I to say know who’s the best rugby player/ golfer that you have played with oh yeah you got the what the Barrett brother Brothers Dan Carter Izzy dag Damen McKenzie Smith Jordy is exceptional is he yeah big long levers yeah he’s scratched Tom McCartney was very good the blues prop uh prop and hooker um the best go uh best sporting golfer I’ve played with is Mitchell Santa hands down but that guy is a freak play you know play a few Cricket Players Association golf days or whatever and he is hands down the best golfer probably golfer I’ve seen is it well outside of the pr that you play with proam and stuff do you get involved in the proam situation as well you ever won a green jacket or anything like that in a PWC Green Jacket two in a row oh backto back defending University rabby Club uh Hamilton W University rby Club Green Jacket W on a boat race actually yeah I play a couple of PR but know not not not too much of it um when I spoke to some of your sort of child friends that they mentioned this golf trip you go on every year and there’s 16 mates and it’s a I love this stuff like we’ve got a really good friend group and the importance of like having something to look forward to but also getting around your mates yep I wondered with that what it’s like for you because you’re obviously the guy that knows everything and I’m assuming there are a lot of sporty guys are they all trying to get at you about sort of what’s going on and what’s the Gos in in the rugby land um no not not really I think you know with with that crew and and with my good mates um sometimes you know they they might but I think you know everyone kind of knows that there’s not a lot of Point asking me because I’m not going to talk about it and you know and and this is probably like the worst bit of the job I suppose is rugby is everywhere in this country right like it’s just every everyone’s got an opinion on it whether they like it or they don’t that’s an opinion in itself but it’s just so sort of everywhere that it’s really hard to get away from you know and so that’s something I’ve always kind of wrestled with that when you’re at the pub and you make just want to talk about rugby and I’m like this is just work you know or you know like you’re at home and you flick on and it’s first 15 rugby on TV and you’re like oh this just work you know like I don’t actually want you know like you find it hard to sort of relax so so the guys don’t no they they leave me alone only I mean the the ones they really like when people get in trouble right like they don’t really care about anything else they might ask about selections or whatever but most of the you know my good mates will you know they they sort of know how to ask around it or they probably recognize cues in me when I don’t want to discuss something or something like that and look when we’re playing golf on those golf tours we’ve got plenty of other stuff to discuss anyway so it’s okay yeah um I want to take you back to sort of foundational years um whenever we get someone who’s kind of risen to the top of their field I love understanding where it came from and after speaking to a bunch like this family is incredible your mother was a teacher your father was a road engineer your older sister was head girl at Napier now a doctor you were head boy at Napier became a lawyer your younger bro was Deputy head boy now a road engineer so the question at that is is there a secret sort is there anything you look back on growing up as this is the reason that we’ve all turned out so well um my brother or k if I don’t point out he’s a fire engineer but that’s okay that’s all right um oh look we you you don’t realize it at the time right you don’t realize when you’re growing up just how sort of lucky we were um just you’re supposed to get emotional but we had a you see lots of people that have families that break up or whatever that have two parents around I always had two incredibly loving parents who would do anything for us and the family and probably not until you work and you see how hard it is is to give up your time to take your rugby team or take your cricket team or go away on the weekend or what would you just took for granted when you’re a kid um and so they were always there you know for for all of us to do anything we want you know like living in napia it’s not Oakland you know it’s pretty small you know we spent a lot of time in the bike getting around but they were always there to pick you up and carry on but I sort of anticipated this question a little bit and I think like I just remember a lot of questions when I was young um not really being told what to do you know just asked if that was the right thing to do or have you thought about this or should you do it this way or should you do it that way like we we just got asked a lot of questions and I just don’t remember being told so in in some ways they were just making you learn think through your decisions think through what you’re doing could you done it different way and all that sort of stuff so that’s what I really remember and I think you know like my siblings we are completely different people you know like each of them like my sister’s a pediatrician down in in crushes you know she’s the one that does God’s work you know like saving kids lives and that sort of stuff like that’s phenomenal and then my brother is a um fire engineer that does like was for Home Solutions which they sort of make really cool stuff for test stuff and you know he runs a team and he’s he’s done really well but we are way way way different from each other which um you know is probably just you know a product of how Mom and Dad raised us to be different to think for ourselves to make our own decisions and maybe not follow a path just because you know the only thing I remember my dad telling me to I’m sure he told me lots of stuff but you know the one that stands out is I wanted to go to Victoria uh law school and uh cricket was my thing at school when I I sort of wanted to come back and play cricket in Hawks Bay so you know couldn’t go to Messi because they didn’t have a law school was close as one and my sister was a year ahead of me at school and she’d gone down to um denan to do Premed and they went down and visited her and my remember my dad came back oh you know so what do you think about vity I said oh you know still think Victorian he just goes I think you might want to think about denan son and he goes oh it’s pretty fun down there I was like all right okay so all right I’ll think about it D because I actually remember at the time going man he’s never told me anything okay all right well that subtle yeah Ming just real subtle messaging okay yep so off I went you know well I think it’s it’s Testament to the the values that they instilled in you that to a person everybody that we spoke to speaks about your moral compass and your genuine concern for people regardless of whether they’re clients or friends or people that you come across I I think they did a wonderful wonderful job with you yeah I often think honestly when I’m in situations or whatever I think what would Mom say you know what would my mom do so yeah the side of the job that people don’t I mean people don’t really know anything about your job right there’s probably a dozen agents in New Zealand less than that fulltime um so this is kind of might be People’s First insight into what it’s really like but I was hoping you could tell us about the Japan connection to your job and denzo and how big that uh that is and how much of your time is actually spent over there yep uh so we were bought out um we were owned by an English company um CSM up until about 2018 I think it was in DSU which is a massive publicly listed Japanese company like I don’t know what it is 4 billion market cap or something like that you’ve got it there have you I see I’m not sure of this the stat is right but I read that in 2022 they reported net revenue of $8.4 billion yeah that sounds probably is that kiwi uh that was blood question that’ll be kiwi cuz I have four in my head us yeah that’s probably that’s probably bang on right so hug they’re huge and they’re they’re just ginormous around the world and and all that sort of stuff so um the reason for them buying us was that it was just before the r World Cup was in Japan and they wanted you know Legacy I suppose Around the World Cup and what are we doing and you know their Ambitions around changing the competition and all that sort of stuff so they bought us because Japan is kind of always been our engine I suppose um we’ve been putting players up there since about 2002 I think and so um you know our we’ve got eight staff up there it’s big business for us up there so it was kind of natural that a Japanese company would want us given our our um you know how much much business we did in Japan so you know we have eight staff and we’ve got you know lots of players up there that and we broke a deals for South African um players and Australian players and UK players and that it’s not just the kiwis that because we have those relationships I was talking about um with with um other officers around the world so um I I’ve I mean I’m I’m going there on Sunday this that’ll be my fifth trip this year but that’s probably a little bit um that’s not particularly normal normally it’ be three or four trips a year to go up and see head office but then also see the clubs and see some of the clients and and just check on the staff and all that sort of stuff but it’s it’s it’s big business for USU huge business and and a Hu and you’re kind of that link man between yeah New Zealand Rugby the All Blacks and and that Japanese League that Stu is kind of runs and is it an exaggeration that you could pick up the phone and talk to literally anybody in the Rugby World uh from the chairman of world rugby right through to a club admin uh there’ be relationships with every organization that you I mean I can’t speak Japanese I can’t speak FR but you know like yeah we we’re connected you know and if it’s again it’s a team thing right like so if it’s not you know if it’s not me and and one important person you missed out was Hannah hickling who runs the the brand side of our business you know it one of Dean Warren Hannah me or someone in the OR organization will will have a have a contact somewhere yeah mainly clubs not so much unions unions kind of run their own sort of races um world rugby are kind of a we we actually have no standing with World rugby if a player had an issue uh with World rugby we can’t go if we emailed World rugby they’d come back to us and say sorry you have no standing we can’t deal with you you have to go through the union who would then have like Union so New Zealand or if it’s Japan Japan and they would then have to go to world rugby the um skatan nature of this interview means I’m just going to be throwing up random stuff because there’s there’s so many little different bits and pieces I’m really interested in so the next place I’m going to go is managing the athletes and sort of transitioning like legendary all blacks out of sport and into the next stage of their life yep like what does that look like when Richie mcco is is hanging up the boot and thinking about what to do next like what’s what what’s your plan there when does that conversation even start yeah well um every relationship is different right to your point about when does it start um I mean all rugby players and this is a public service announcement if they haven’t figured it out yet they are going to be redundant at some point the their job is going to be made redundant or they’re you know because it’s just a finite career so generally you know when they’re young bulletproof you know they’re into it and they’ve got years ahead of them in the game and stuff so it’s when they get a bit older um getting more towards the end of the career they’ll start saying oh look I’ve think I’ve only got two or three years left or two or three contracts left in me or whatever and this is my plan and this is what I want to do we were with the Players Association which is Rob nickel and his team of um people that work with him um professional development managers and then they have a person who sold rollers to deal with the people overseas as well to sort of help them transition so we sort of work in with them um guys like Richie and and Dan who um like like beaver and Izzy and those sort of guys that have got a profile um you know a lot of what their safety net will be trying to continue a lot of the commercial relationships they have or broadcasting or whatever um whereas some people you know might want to go into the police or um you know they want to buy business or you know they’ve they just want to be at home with their kids for a couple years while their wife goes out to work or whatever everyone’s completely different but you know and that’s that is the hard bit because you know some careers end abruptly um through injury or just because you know they a club’s decided to go in a different path you know they want youth or or whatever um so you just you just have to have those questions as and when and then react to the circumstances like you know in some ways guys like Richie and Dan you know their ability to work off the pitch and just you know be themselves effectively and do the commercial stuff is enhanced when they leave the jersey and rugby behind because all of a sudden they’ve got 40 hours to kill a week There’s No competing sponsorship issues you know they have sort of cut blanch to kind of do more um if if they want to do it you know so it’s just it’s just different for everyone it’s kind of not and that’s that’s the reality of this business is that every relationship’s different there’s no textbook there’s no like I’ve done what I’ve done and I think you know I wouldn’t have lasted in this game if it didn’t resonate with certain people but my way is not the only way and I’m not Warren Warren does it his way and then Kent does it his way and you know like post and and dunk and other people from other um organizations will do it their way and they’ve been successful so there’s just no textbook you know you just kind of you know I guess you go back to that value set and you know moral compass and you know you just have to you just got to do what you think’s right in the in the moment I think you know I little catch cry it’s not what you do it’s how you do it you know like I think that’s important cuz you have a lot of really difficult conversations in this um in this job um and like even like if if the if the play’s lucky enough and it’s not always but often you know you’ve you ride the highve doing a deal closing a deal they’re super excited there’s still a really shitty phone call to make to tell somebody that who has worked their butt off and put a whole lot of effort into getting money and presenting to the player or whatever that sorry he’s not signing with you you know like so this game you know like you it’s it’s often hard to really celebrate because you know in in it’s a it’s a small world we negotiate with the same people you know sustainable business practices I suppose and that’s why you got it’s not what you do it’s how you do it you know you’ve you know you got to be respectful and transparent and you know you often like the person that you’re dealing with and throwing them up and tell them um is not particularly nice or telling a player that they they don’t there’s no future here for you they’ve decided to go in a different direction or whatever and you know that’s where it gets tricky overseas as well because there’s so many different nuances that just make it you could be the best player on the team but if a new coach comes in and decides that he wants to play the game in a or she wants to play the game in a particular different way that means that the profile of the team changes it might mean they don’t need a foreign hooker they actually want a foreign Center so sorry you’re Superfluous or we’ll pay you but we’re not going to pay you as much because we’re not going to play you you know like there’s all those sort of little bits that come into it that you just learn through experience and you know they’re T like those they’re the worst conversations but you know we you you’re not only here to tell them the good stuff right like you’ve actually and in some ways your job is to think worst case right like and when you get in real trouble is when it actually gets the worst worst worst case and you’re like what are we going to do now um do do you have a formula for those tough conversations is it just get straight to the point like you know do you do small talk and then get to the point do you um some conversations are fairly short um it’s a no yeah yeah oh you don’t um no there’s no formula because again every conversation’s different right it’s a live thing and that’s that’s the cool thing about the job I suppose is that it is so relationship based and it is talking to people who you know generally you could be fighting but you can talk about what happened on Saturday or what’s going to happen on Saturday or whatever there’s that real sort of commonality that gives you something to talk about even in the awkward moments so you might talk about that and then go well way you don’t have to go into any specifics but have you had cases of players coming to your post career with a great idea and you’ve just looked at and gone what are you who’s been in your ear about this this is the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen in my life uh no is that not your Ro is that not your role no no I no I mean that not stupid I mean I mean like I think in this is you know to potential employers out there for these guys they they professional rby players have got you know they’ve been through a lot right they’ve seen a lot of people you know you think about teams now it’s not just a couple of coaches and a manager you know there’s physios doctors you’re going to have contact with all the marketing people you know match day all that sort of stuff and they’re massively high performance you know like imagine walking into work every Monday and you get reamed for how you’ve performed or your best mate gets reamed for how they’ve performed and they get dropped every week no no we don’t want you to work this week you were you were [ __ ] on one day of last week you prepared am bit your [ __ ] just don’t do anything for us this week like that’s a weird sort of place to be in so they learn a lot right they’re all quite savy and they’ve got good influences around them and stuff so I think you know they’ve got good [ __ ] meters you know I really do think most of them do so you know often we’ll get something thrown at us and saying oh hey can you just cast your eyes over this or you know it might be franchise agreement or what do you think about this and you know like none of I’ve never read like some you go oh you might just want to be a little bit careful about this but I don’t think it’s either way you’re like oh you’re an absolute idiot or anything like that there are plenty of people have lost some money I’m sure but um no I think you know I don’t think rugby players get enough credit for just how sevy and how um sort of relevant what they’ve been through is in the business and and employment world is it hard post career for a lot of rugby players yeah like you there is just so much to it right like you think about a rugby team you’ve got all your mates well not all your mates but you’ve got a whole lot of group of people around you support network you’re going for coffees you’re doing whatever um you live in a really structured environment um day off a week you know finished at 3: whatever so then if you go to a job which is 9 to5 or whatever and you’ll be earning significantly less than what you were just having to deal with the pressure of that like you know you used to always pick the kids up from school now you don’t you know you you leave to work when it’s dark you get home when it’s dark how are you going to fit in your training cuz you want to you know you you’ve you’ve been used to being looking a particular way and probably taking a lot of self-confidence from how you look or how much you can lift or anything like that and so then you just throw these it’s not just you’re not getting the outlet of playing rugby you just think about the life changes and the family unit changes in everything thing that you have to explain or well you maybe explain to your kids or everything you have to deal with it’s a it’s a um you I just don’t think there’s many situations like that that you can really relate to in just the normal world it is really unique you know so that’s why the Players Association people put a whole lot of effort into trying to prepare people but you know you can what is it you you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink and at the other end of the spectrum you’re also dealing with the dreams and aspirations of of young athletes right is man do you have to do a lot of work in managing I guess for some people family and and the family’s expectation that their uh kid will be providing for them in the long term but that may not be a reality yeah yeah I I think there’s a bit of that but again I think you know most families are pretty good you know and and and a and this is a Hot Topic but um one of the I guess unended consequences of sort of rugby players sort of all good ones ending up at similar schools and stuff is that you know parent groups of those kids they travel they watch whatever and you know the the chatter happens amongst the parents and this is what you need to look out for and you know he’s pretty good have you spoken to an agent yet or oh I saw you talking to that guy in the tracksuit from whichever Union it is you know you might you know just be a bit careful or whatever so I think there’s a lot before it even gets to us I think there’s again it’s New Zealand right it’s tiny everybody knows somebody so there’s a whole lot of Education I think it’s got better and better as it’s kind of as the the the market has matured and you know we’ve and the unions have matured and and everything’s matured so um I think the expectations are okay but you do you do spend a lot of time with family as well cuz I think you know our approach anyway is that you know we are only a part of their support network or the advisor Network you know like they might have a first 15 coach that they’re really tight with or you know Mom Dad uncle brother doesn’t really matter we are part of that you know you don’t want to you know it’s not like the movies where the agent comes in and divorces the them away from their from their family um you know like we you are just part of it so absolutely you know and often cuz you know we’re we’re recruiting um uh rugby players in their last year of school so they’re still at home you know a lot of them are still at home or with caregivers or you know hosts or whatever so when you’re pitching them and you’re trying to get them on board you are doing it you know you’re pitching the family often um you know moms and dads have got good [ __ ] meters as well so you know that’s that is absolutely 100% what you do I can already tell you’re not the kind of guy who’s going to want to um big note or name drop but I’m going to go fishing for a story which involves two of the biggest names oh no 2019 Rugby World Cup final uh and you sandwiched them between Richie MC and Dan Carter is that a moment where you’re kind of like look at where I am look at who I’m with do you remember this it was fed To Us by one of your sources said they’re watching the final and they were sort of the game and could see what was going to happen yeah that was pretty cool so it was we watched it in the um MasterCard box um with Richie Dan and actually Jay Ryan was there who you know the fors coach and yeah that was pretty cool cuz it was South Africa or England I think no one really cared about the result so you could watch it with sort of you know curiosity and you know Dan sitting there going I’ll watch this if they sit out like that they’re going to go this way or Dan yelling at Richie going o skip what are we doing here if they got a penalty are we points or we whatever yeah like that was I’d probably had too much to tr to sit there and go did I reflect on and go this is pinch yourself moment but you know when you look back at the photos and and Jason I’ve actually talked about it a couple of times you know he went from watching the final to being in the final you know on the sidelines just around a couple years later like yeah they the moments you actually have to and and the come up when you’re scrolling through your photo roll or you’ll get a memory from a day or something like that but yeah that’s that’s pretty that’s pretty unique situation that you have to you do have to pinch yourself a little bit and go well that’s pretty cool I’m pretty fortunate there you’ve dropped the name there oh you’ve got a no you’ve dropped a name there Jay Ryan which is an interesting one like his from Club footy all the way now to the All Blacks is incredible but how do coaches because you represent cultures as well how do they differ from play players and athletes um they’re older aside from the obvious but are like are there are there like contracts and Fish Hooks and and things their requirements very very different to players um yeah it’s they are different I’m just trying to sort of put it in words because you live and die by your results as well right well that’s probably more like the the reality is with coaching is there are way more coaches and there are opportunities for coaches right like it’s just you know just is it is to get to the top of the coaching pile or even to get to Super Rugby is hard like you have had to earn your stripes you’ve had to prove yourself over and over and over and in some way to to get there you know players are sort of increasingly because I go back to that point that you know the their experience in the environment um does lend itself to coaching and a lot of those guys probably have put the head down and thought well I want to be a coach and they’ll be having the chats with the head coaches and the other coaches and trying to learn and understand while they’re still in the environment and they might be given a little bit of responsibility here or there when they injured they’ll go in the box or or whatever but it is it is really hard to get there so um and I think coaches are really really conscious of that the good ones you know how how hard it is so um you know they they they want to be protected when they get their opportunity they’ve also got to be a little bit careful around the opportunity they take you know like they don’t want to pin their stripes to a head coach if they think that head coach isn’t necessarily performing very well or they don’t think they’re going to advance their career um you know it’s just yeah they’re just different I suppose but is that the way they have to operate now as a as a pack and as a group is that coaches no not necessarily but you do see it happen right like I’ll often ask coaches um you know like a one of the hard ones I think is if a head coach gets appointed and it’s kind of like arranged marriage right like we’ve already got this assistant coach or these are all the assistant coaches and you know you might go yep that’s cool I can I can we get on really well and we’ve had a few meetings and it’s fine but if you’re 0 and three for the season and you are in the trenches and you are fighting is that relationship going to stand the test of time and I think that’s why you sort of do see coaches kind of cruising packs a little bit because they just trust each other you know and you know Rugby World they talk a lot about cesion now which is you know players you know have played with each other a lot the more cohesive the team the better it is and and all that sort of stuff and coaches are probably no different you know if there’s certain areas that you know are important and you’ve got 100% trust in that person is going to cover them off because they’ve done it for you before and we’ve been through this and we’ve been through that then that’s going to be advantageous and you know that’s going to work better I suppose when I spoke to a few friends of mine that know you they said one of your so your Genius Zone has being able to take like a ton of information and really sort of cleanly articulate it and explain it so I’m going to put it to I proved it wrong last hour so bear in mind I we’re just going to spend a bit of time on this cuz I want to I want to move to other sports but I actually want to start with rugby and and zooming right out 2024 H how was the professional game how how was the the land the worldwide landscape yeah uh I think like the thing I keep reminding myself is that there’s a whole lot of smart people that have taken big bets on Rugby you know whether it’s whether you like or don’t like Silver Lake CVC which is the other big private Equity party that that’s pumped a whole lot of Mone money into other parts of the world um there are a whole lot of people that are biding on Rugby right and they don’t come into these things to lose money right so I think that overarching view is that right well there is something here and again it’s more just trying to work out the right way for it to grow and again I think what’s happened is it with this private Equity money coming in with Co which again has challenged all these relationships and the normal ways of doing things and and has caused some shuffles you know USC with South Africans going up to um up north to play and um Argentina hegar’s leaving Super Rugby and and kind of all those sort of things is that we’re in a space where a whole lot of questions are being asked because people are coming in and demanding those questions are being asked and um like Rugby’s not in the healthiest spot it’s been right like there’s no point hiding away from that and um and I just think like they they’re talking a lot more about the rules of the game how are we marketing it is it you we’ve seen teams fall over which has just never happened before but teams well it has happened but not to this sort of level so you can’t sit there and say that there’s that everything’s right with the game but I kind of feel like we’re just in the situation where the private Equity money’s come in people are sort of shoulders out a little bit jostling for position but we are going to come out the other side into a better spot once it kind of all settles down a little bit and I think what we’re seeing more and more in the I think if I just look at New Zealand is that all the like people are people know stuff’s wrong right and they are asking themselves the questions now whereas I think for a long time people didn’t want to face it you oh no we don’t have a problem with this or we don’t have a problem with that and they just wanted to sweep stuff under the carpet where now those issues are being talked about like we don’t the solutions yet or we might but no one’s agreed on what the solution is yet um but you know it’s just in a it’s in a precarious little spot around what is the world order going to be what is it going to look like and I think that um like if you look at French rugby that’s on a high like that is absolutely flying the World Cup last year top 14 um you know Japan rugby that that Japan rugby league one they have some natural advantages in the the size of the Cannons of the people that fund the game um but they’re actually going really well and you know Irish Rugby I bet you they saying they’re loving it you know it’s just down in New Zealand we just cannot seem to get ourselves out of the swamp really we just you know and it’s tiring it’s boring like if boring if if there was one thing you could magically wave a brush out and fix is there something that jumps out like game day experience or the rules or the Super Rugby structure is there anything during the day yeah see even the fact that you can rattle or like that straight away um uh all of them but um I do think Match Day experience is is a massive one and and it kind of feeds a little bit into the rules and all that sort of stuff like I think we keep telling people that Rugby’s broken because we keep talking about the rules I actually think and I guess I’m probably not the best person to judge this but I actually think Rugby’s pretty easy to watch and I riff kids rugby and you know riffing the breakdown and that s of stuff I actually think they’ve cleaned it up massively but we keep telling people it’s wrong we keep telling people it’s dirty because we keep want to sending more people off we keep wanting to talk about hias we which are incredibly important don’t get me wrong like hiia I think is really important but the disciplinary stuff what we keep telling people is wrong when the match day experience is what people come back for like if I go and watch a game in France and I’m incredibly lucky to get to travel around the world and and watch if I go to game in France the feeling I get sitting down in po at their stadium is the feeling I get when I’m at Northshore rugby watching Northshore play East Coast Bays or teauna like and there’s 14,000 people in France and there’s probably and North Shore is a well supported Club we’ probably got 1,500 but that’s the feel you get you get that feel that the people are down here cuz it’s their community and there’s kids everywhere and they leave people in the ground there’s bands afterwards there’s stuff to do beforehand the players are mingling it’s got that real Community feel we’re over here we we just don’t do that right like shuffled out by Red Badge security 10 minutes after the game and the venues are a large issue you know I really do think they are um but they’re also a necessary part because New Zealand’s such a small a small place that it’s not really feasible for people to own their own stadium and not have complete control over the match day experience but we’ve got to do something about that whole experience around getting the kids back playing in the day is you know like I think the hurricanes have chosen to play at 435 which is a that’s a big step I think and and it’ be really interesting to be fly in the wall and see what sky think about that because 730 rates a hell of a lot better than 430 for them but was 20,000 pre-sale yeah but the fans want it right but but that’s also there’s a disconnect there between what sky want and what the Super Rugby teams want because the Super Rugby teams the way they make money is by getting people through the gates they still get part of they still get funded through the broadcast but that’s through an intermediary in nzr who sort of pushed the money onto them so they don’t I don’t think they feel that direct relationship so that that’s a huge one but I think and then so because we’re small and you and the venues are owned by the city or whatever I also think if you compare it to sports overseas if I think about NBA we don’t have those symbiotic relationships between the city councils and security and police and all that sort of stuff and the teams that they do like NBA look at like the experience their experience is you leave your house right that’s what they’re tracking they they want to see driveway to driveway right yeah driveway to driveway how long does it take to get in how long does it take you to get into the ground how long does it take you to get a hot dog in your hand or a beer or whatever and get home we are so compartmentalized right like we cannot work together like it you know sometimes when you go to Eden Park um and this is probably the same stadium I’m just picking on Eden Park because I live in Oakland you kind of don’t feel very welcome right like you feel like you are an annoyance to them and and they’re trying hard you know I know they’re trying hard but there’s not a lot the blues are just a tenant there like there’s not a lot what they can do and you know the security people you know they want to be there at 10:00 you know their job finishes at 10 they don’t want you there after 10 or whatever they just like get home like I don’t like ring I don’t I don’t want we uh World Cup final uh 2020 the woman’s one uh whatever it was 22 was it uh so we watched it up in a box um and it was our box and um the kids wanted to go down onto the field you know and and hang with the players and all that sort of stuff and through you know my wife who was black and works new rugby you know they know a lot of the players and stuff so it was awesome for them we got kicked out of the box and I’m like but this is where the kids need to come back to and they’re like well has she got a phone you know I think my daughter’s nine at the time and I’m like well yeah she does but what if she didn’t you know like and they’re like and we won’t drink like if it’s a license thing that’s fine take all the booze we got no but I can’t leave my kids but it’s just like beat it you know and you’re just sitting there going this is a group of people that are sitting in a box celebrating you know an amazing occasion amazing game and we’re just getting shooted out of a venue whereas you go to Mont pelier or wherever else and you are there 5 hours after the game and there’s still barbecues going and there’s bands going and there’s kids doing whatever like I just don’t I don’t get it you know and TR traffic’s such a problem why don’t you keep people in the venue for a bit longer and sort of bleed the traffic out like let’s let’s just think differently and I think that’s the that’s one of the like everyone’s looking for problems sorry everyone’s talking about problems but in terms of the solutions nobody’s really prepared to do anything particularly different or radical and I don’t know if that’s because the structures or whatever just don’t let us but you know we need to do things differently if we’re going to change life if you keep doing the same things you don’t change so so there was no coherency of a lot of good points there’s some there’s some good points for Auckland FC the new football team coming in to try and change that match day experience as well right yeah but like I’m not a you know I I don’t get out to the Warriors very often but you know they seem to crack the code right like people want to go you know people want to be there it’s got that tribalism it’s it’s got that sort of fabric and I think AFC will have a big opportunity there because there’ll be a lot of curious people it’s just then converting the Curious into die hard right and that’s where the Phoenix have probably lost it a little bit they had a really good following and I’m getting into football which I don’t know anything about um but you still time for Halo to open that footb they Football division they haven’t they haven’t cracked it right well they they had it and then they’ve lost it a little bit you know so I think AFC have got a big opportunity there to to really try to grasp a a foothold in here no no interest in League just while you’ve spoken about the Warriors from from a representation point of view y we’ve got a a guy that’s accredited with rugby league but I think to have rugby league properly you have to have an Australian offering every year on the strategy document rugby Le’s got a question mark next to it you know when are we going to do it how are we going to do it but I think you sort of you you need you need a you need a whole lot of knowledge which you probably have to buy acquisition and um it’s got to be Australian sort of based because that’s where the clubs are really right is rugby and uh League done Cricket yep so I’d heard that you know despite all your sort of your breadth of knowledge and rugby it’s actually kind of your third sport it’s like Golf and cricket and one of those two is is your what you know the best or what you love the most um I’m really interested in sort of IPL space in cricket because I only found out during the week through research that that’s on track to be as the second biggest league in the world by 2030 yeah I think that’s when you value the uh the value of the franchises right like so I think one sold the other I don’t have the numbers but one sold the other day for like a new franchise of 800 million or something like or might have been a billion I can’t remember but and then if you value them all and you add them all up like that’s where that valuation comes from is this the value of the franchises yeah like they are it’s huge right like IPL is just going to continue to grow and grow and whether that grow and grow in terms of the competition getting longer or it’s going to grow in terms of its influence around the world you know like you had the sunrises Eastern Cape or something like that in South Africa and whether those franchises because if they valued that much they’ve got a lot of money to S Equity to sit around and play with so they are investing in teams around the world so you know they are just bit like City football group and those sort of groups you’re going to you know that’s where it’s heading so there’s this huge pot of money and opportunity and then with we’ve got the sort of the the test Summers and there’s you know low crowds and things what what’s your vision what what do you think New Zealand Cricket needs to do to do we need to go towards the IPL is that well New Zealand Cricket does pretty much and that um if you’re a New Zealand cricketer New Zealand uh cricket contracted cricketer I think there’s 20 contracts you have to be available for New Zealand other than during the IPL like they they they specifically carve it out because the Wards on offer they just can’t match and that’s why kind of like you know like rugby has its northern hemisphere release periods where you have to let people go and play international you have the international windows and soccer Cricket has the IPL window that people go and play and most sort of um cricket boards around the world carve out that that period to let them go and do that because New Zealand needs it right like if you know they can’t if C Williams is getting a million dollars C William is getting a million dollars us to play you know for two months yeah verus what he’s getting here which he still gets paid very well here but you can’t deny people when I’m an athlete sort of I got my athlete hat on I suppose you can’t deny people that opportunity and because if you did they’ probably say well thanks or at some point they would you know like the people want to I mean I think most kids grow up wanting to represent their country doesn’t matter what sport they play in the thought of pulling on the fern or whatever will have an influence on what they do so you’re always going to keep people for a certain point but then at some point if the rewards are greater you’re just gonna go well I’m just gonna go and do that do you do everything with Kane Williamson no no we’ve done some commercial work with Kane oh commercial yeah where do cricket players fit in in terms of representation yeah interesting so a lot of them have agents now overseas but so in New Zealand the way the Contracting system works is you have um you got six major associations and then you have your New Zealand contracted list so New Zealand will allocate 20 contracts and they’re ranked 1 to 20 and number one’s worth X and number two is worth Y and and on and on and on and so there’s a kind of like a process and formula that sort of works out try to make it objective as possible which works out where you are and then the exact same thing happens down at Major Association level so there’s no negotiation like if somebody wants to change uh major associations the only thing you can really horse trade with is a a ranking I if you’re ranked 10 at ockland we’ll rank you three at canbury or or whatever so there’s no real negotiation so um you know the you know there just there isn’t a market I suppose you know agents have job when there’s a market and there’s no real Market there is a bit of a market in overseas and particularly with the sort of you know all the new leagues popping up but a lot of them are done by um uh auction so some guys will go well if it’s an auction you’re not really negotiating I’m just going to get what people say so yeah it’s not Cricut agency is not something we’ we used to do it back in the early early days of IPL um but then it’s kind of something we haven’t really focused on because it’s just you know there’s no real need for it down here overall though Cricket in a in a good space well uh globally I think yes you know like but most of that’s just fueled off the back of India the the big the big issue Cricket’s got is that it’s just the the power you know like is in India England and Australia the big three that’s that’s where the majority of the money is made they’re the ones that have the most money um and you know that’s so they’re in India and the subcontinent they’re driving huge amounts of Revenue the hard thing is for the new zealands the West Indies South africas everyone’s sort of keeping up you know and if if if you use a rugby anal analogy I kind of think we’re like Scotland when it comes to Cricket you know if you think rugby if you think we’re Scotland is in the pecking order of world rugby we’re kind of Scotland when it comes to Cricket yeah um so you know and I know um Scott weet Co and um and the and Diana at um the chair of new Ze cricket and you know they work tirelessly to make sure that New Zealand has an outsized influence on the on the global game because they have to they’ve got to stay relevant you know and that’s that’s what they I know that that’s what they’re constantly thinking about so you’ve got a wealth of sporting IP in your head yep have you ever thought about crossing over to an NSO or a sporting organization and and shifting into that space um not right now oh yeah I I look I mean I think you sit there and like everyone does you know what are you going to do next or whatever and I think there’s certainly an element of me that sits here and goes whether they’ve asked for it or not I’ve probably told a whole lot of people what they should be doing and stuff and there’s a little bit of bit of me that sometimes says oh well if you think you can do it can’t prove it um but yeah not not on the immediate Horizon and then if if New Zealand Cricket is Scotland in rugby terms what is New Zealand football in rugby terms I’m not a football expert okay where are we ranked oh the hundreds yeah 100 100 and something but like I look at someone like Chris Wood do we as kiwi sports fans really appreciate what he is doing in the world of football in the Premier League I think the people that care about football do you know I think like if I know who Chris Wood is and I know he’s just had a record-breaking season I think he’s got a lot of goals and if I know that who I’m a casual football Observer I follow the sports news then the people that really want to know that will know that intimately I think I think football’s a funny one right like it’s just a it’s a funny sport in New Zealand in that we’ve got New Zealand football we’ve got massive participation at the youth and then we just seem to die a ditch after that we I know that there are some pockets of strong clubs but we’ve never really managed to get the the the parochialism of the NPC and rugby like I used to go watch City Rovers grown up like I great memories of Park Island and I couldn’t name a player or whatever but I knew that there were 5 10,000 people there and it was a great day out um but I just don’t think it’s ever sort of really grabbed that and I think a lot of that is around the fact that it’s just so focused around Premier League the Liga like there’s so much other football that it’s just so much no disrespect to the people that are giving their guts here but it’s just so much better than than what we can put on offer here you’re right it’s like you look at these other sports and you’re watching Super Rugby you’re watching the best players in the world you’re watching The Warriors you’re watching in outs the best in the world cricket is the best in the world you’re watching professional football here it’s what like the 12th level of football compared to what you see on TV champions league and English Premier League and La Liga like it’s so far removed from what you know as the premium product that unless it’s a really captivating Match Day experience then you know are you going to go yeah but see I think basketball U you know like I think basketball are doing a really good job in that space and sort of creating competition and creating enough interest and stuff to really sort of carve out a niche following in New Zealand even though the got the NBA and we’ve got the breakers I think they’re really smart around when they play it they flood TV with it it seems quite exciting you know Sky have obviously got some interests in the competition so they they want to pump it but I kind of feel like basketball’s sort of doing that a bit yeah it’s good taking a little bit of that space yeah I clocked a a game on Sunday afternoon yeah and I was it was like nor sure event and it was it was rammed and I thought [ __ ] that’s a real subculture of people that are dialed into this and it’s live on free to Air Sky open or whatever it is on a Sunday afternoon perfect time for you can turn on sky and not have a basketball game somewhere on the still old school I used a remote um I’m not a streamer yet for that um and yeah there’s somewhere you’ll find basketball they’re done a good job K to move from sport to uh your wife world champion married into a she’s the impressive one she’s the impressive one yeah i’ heard that from a few people she was better at rugby than you are significantly yeah can you tell us when you first met Hannah and and how that got to the ground uh typical um probably denan relationship met her at the pub one night um and like literally you know met her at the PB went on a few dates and then you know we were I was just leaving I was working for Warren at the time and we were leaving I was leaving denen uh cuz I was going up to work and while for a bit at bgy and Hannah was um moving back to ockland and we kind of first few years we were together we she was chasing her dream with rugby I went overseas and played a bit and we lived apart but we um you know we head it off straight away it’s just your typical story and you know we got two beautiful children now you know she’s high performance manager for the woman so she sits at top the sevens and the 15s the black f um sevens and 15s um you know five World Cups I think she’s won either as a player or a manager or a campaign manager or whatever so you know she is the impressive one and she manages because I’m pretty useless and she keeps everything ticken over it at home yeah do you do you compete like do you pass notes to one another about your respective industries of how you could improve and where you could be where you could be better um cuz you’re like a real power couple right like genuinely in terms of in terms of a rugby situation you’re pretty high powerered Y we we try to keep it pretty separate like genuinely Rugby’s her life Rugby’s my life but like what I said before it’s not like we sit around the dinner table talking rugby a heck of a lot like we kind of avoid but yep we have some pretty interesting discussions and have different viewpoints around what’s going on so yeah we’ll tease some stuff out um but we got to be a bit careful right like I’ve got to make sure I walk to the other end of the house sometimes if I hear who she’s on the phone with I’m like I just don’t want to be part of it right I don’t you there just some things you just rather not know so I’ll get out and I think she’s pretty much the same as well so so we went to uh Mel Robinson um in the leadup to this one and she I’ll be honest with you she came in hot just for context she mced your wedding right yeah she so so she’s a friend of the both of you for a long time so it’s a familiar is relationship most of the time she’s a friend to me she’s a friend to Hannah all the time so so Mel came in hot with her voice notes uh one of them we not one of them we’re not going to read but she did say your party trick was a red line uh from what is a red line Red Line sty like a classic bottle so it’s the same as a black line with a hinin yeah so you’re just trying to finish the first go finish it in the Red Line yeah I think she must have thought we would be drinking dur this one stuff she said about the huge penis um one of the other things just while we’re still on your the relationship with Hannah is that you were an early champion of women’s sport before it became a thing now yep like where are we at now compared to where we were obviously things are a lot closer but I read a great piece of yours about investment parity rather than pay par can you expand on that idea yeah I think um like with Han and growing up and and Hannah and all the other Trail players Anna Richards and Melody Robinson and I forget too many sorry ladies um but you and when you’re living with them and you’re breathing them and you’re seeing them you know professionalism we just go straight to dollars right but you can be professional without getting paid right like what those girls had to do and the sacrifices they had to make and how hard they trained and they weren’t doing anything less than anyone but they weren’t getting the eyeballs they weren’t getting the coverage they weren’t getting the Kudos did they care probably a little bit but it didn’t matter you know they still did it they strapped on the fern they went out and they won World Cups to their country so seeing where it’s kind of got to Now is awesome right like it’s it’s I think people are starting to take it seriously it’s in the Consciousness that’s in the news um but we’re still way behind in terms of the investment and there’s still people out there you know the Nay says you see anything on social media that comments oh but do they pay for themselves do they do whatever no they don’t of course they don’t but sevens is never paid for itself but New Zealand R has been more than happy to pour millions of dollars into a Sev program because it would grow the game globally so with women’s sport if you don’t fertilize something you don’t give it care and attention it’s never going to grow so you just have to invest in it and it is a a time lag and if and time lag I mean like you can’t just go oh have tried for two years and that’s it it’s over you’ve actually got to give it time to grow give it time like we talked about AFC give it time to grab that attention and that Consciousness and and work hard to bring big events to New Zealand you can’t be what you can’t see like put it in prime time you know nobody will turn up and watch the Test match well if you keep putting it at 2:30 on a Wednesday afternoon nobody will come why don’t you play all black tests then oh no one will come or why would you play a black fence test it’s just those kind of little things that I think you just you just have to keep fighting on and I think you know if you one of the things I do talk to my wife a lot about is this you know they’re still in the fight there’s still so much further for them you know for for women’s sport and for us all to get there and I just think it’s I got a daughter 12 she dreams of being a professional sports person um why would you want your daughter to have any different opportunity unities than your son like I just if anybody can answer that and say you know well they shouldn’t because they were born you know without a dangly bit it’s just like well that’s just ridiculous why wouldn’t we want to fight for it and we go back to All the Troubles that Rugby’s had and Sport Etc it’s a growth area why wouldn’t you want to go out and try to get 50% of the population interested in it to to make up for the just changes in demographic or or different Alternatives or whatever you just why why wouldn’t you you know like it’s it’s not all altruistic like I just genely think there’s a commercial opportunity at some point that’s going to crack and it’s going to land and you have to do it you have to chase them yeah what did you see commercially after the ferns won the World Cup in 2022 it seemed like there was a huge boost in interest and a lot of those sort of headline players has that maintain um no I I I I don’t think it has I I don’t think we did enough to jump off the back of that you know like opy um which was a great idea and great concept but who championed it did the Super Rugby teams Champion it they might say they did but did they really did Sky Champion it like what was the launch like what was you know when was it played where was it played I just don’t think they jumped on that enough and then the the other really hard thing and we’re just talking really specifically about rugby here is that rugby can’t exist in a vacuum right like it’s it’s tiny globally against sport so you are so codependent on what’s happening in other parts of the world so like Canada are really good you know they beat us for the first time the other day that wasn’t an enjoyable watching experience when you’re with your wife when that happens I can assure you of that but um no match day experience would have have made that any any good but the Canadian Rugby Union is you know they they’re getting by on the smell of an oily rag you know we need to play more tests against them well how who’s paying for it how do you do it and you know does New Zealand and England and and those sort of unions that probably have the ability to invest more do they have to do it for everyone you know or is that should it come from World rugby or whatever it just gets really complicated but it can’t just be seen in isolation down here or like with opy well the Australian team should be in it right like it would be great if it if they could from a a fan point of view but just think about the costs involved in that and the costs for the girls cuz not all the girls are contracted they get contracted for a small window if you extended that out by 10 weeks could they still hold down their teaching job could they you know could they do the university could they do whatever or how are we going to recompense them for that like there’s just so many things that flow when you actually get into the bricks and motar of professional sport or building competition or running a sport that it’s just it’s just not simple but money funds ambition right you can’t do anything without money in this world so they just the more money that comes in the more problems you can solve it’s as simple as that did New Zealand Rugby have you got a good line of communication with them like do they ask you for for what you think on on these issues and topics um yep sometimes I’ve been to a few symposiums where they’ll call different people in from different areas and yeah you got such a strong voice because you’re so connected to the play yeah I I think um yeah in in certain areas they’ll ask around what’s happening around the world or they’ll ask my view about certain things but yep yeah yes I think I think the answer to that is a simple yes they would if they thought I could add value and I’d be happy to right because you know I think it’s never well sometimes it’s us them in terms of a very specific negotiation but you know we’ve got a part to play and rugby and making sure that um it stays relevant and making sure that it grows and all that sort of stuff like you know I remind the team of that all the time you know like if we just let rugby die in a Vine we’re out of jobs right so we actually you know the old hate the saying but you’re part of the problem or you part of the solution type thing you know so you know we we we need to do our bit and so you know always happy to offer an opinion or whatever on it if it’s required and you know and that’s across the team like we have so many touch points with Super Rugby teams or New Zealand rugby or whatever you know our whole team will be you know imparting their views on this whenever they get the opportunity just before Shay wraps us up what’s the relationship like with with media from your end like when you’re in these tents contract negotiations and there’s like a leak or something are you trying to figure out where it’s coming from does that bother you used to you know it it it it did really used to bother me or and some times it gets in the way of the negotiation right so that you can be annoyed but I guess I’ve for a couple of reasons one they’re just doing their job you know at the end of the day it’s their job to find stuff out and report it if it’s they think it’s in the public interest so it’s never personal or anything like that they it’s a job and if they do their job well and they get the the the information then well good on them I suppose so I don’t worry too much but then you know going back to that point we just talked about um rugby needs more chatter right rugby needs more talking points other than just what’s happening on the game it needs more noise it needs more energy it needs sort of I call it the ched outside the game and so you got to take the good with the bad in that like you can’t have everything Rosy or you can’t have everything you can’t control the narrative all the time what you’re actually doing is trying to create a product that creates multiple narratives that you want the media invested in to try to find and talk about which think gives the people in the pubs to talk about things like if you look at League game of League happens there’s seven or eight narratives because there’s so much media and they’re looking about it and you know you can scroll through the papers and read all sorts of different stories we just don’t have that in New Zealand sport at the moment I think that’s one of the big issues around the about rugby and and everything is that the New Zealand Sports media is really being um challenged I suppose you guys will know more about this but it’s being really challenged and that’s not producing the same number of Coles and words and and all that sort of stuff so you know if a story breaks I actually you know there’s part of me that goes yeah cool it’s going to give people something to talk about and it’s not just the game it’s something different and we need to encourage more of that somehow I don’t again I don’t know the answers but I I don’t think that you can begrudge it yeah um I’m back on my CV building yeah hunt here there is a difference between an agent and a manager right a player agent and a player manager yeah i’ I’d say so like so Dean hean who we’ve talked about a couple times he’s probably more a manager right and and we’ve got Greg Dar and Nicole Antonelli in the team who I would put in that space so they kind of manage athletes so an agent we do the deals you know like do the rugby deals help them with their rugby career Etc the managers are kind of running their calendars making sure they’re turning up you know doing the sponsor endorsements you know checking the copy on the photos or making sure they’re giving them ideas around how to do a social piece or or whatever so they’re probably taking more of a manager role around them um and whereas you know the rugby agents are just kind of doing the rugby deal I mean the terms are pretty interchangeable really but if I had to that’s how i’ distinguish between them so then who makes the decision to put Steven Donald on the master singer he did and who didn’t advise him not to do that I may have suggested that I wasn’t sure whether he would actually want to do that or not um yeah that was a beauty wasn’t it actually I tried to what I did try to do is get the mower I was like as part of it you need to no they wouldn’t give it they wouldn’t do you have that do you have that influence in terms of the negotiation of the deal I I tried and they just wouldn’t give it to us I’m like well can we at least so that we could just troll them every time we possibly could and pull it out for those who didn’t watch the masang it was it a was it not a great experience never it was fine it was fine it’s just if Steven dropped that Steven had some bu’s regret I think on doing that before he did it I think afterwards he didn’t care right it’s one of those things that’s kind of I agree to do it yep sweet well they’re going to pay me that sounds all right how hard can it be and then I think it was like oh Cy actually a hell of a lot harder than I thought well we’ve spoken to some other people that were on that show that were like it was really intense in terms of like smuggle you into the studio it exactly yeah well we had a few meetings in it I think was it Warner Brothers that did it and stuff and he had to park in the downstairs put his hoodie on glasses like you couldn’t even show the people in Warner Brothers yeah who you were yeah like it was yeah I forgot that was a beauty that’s a hell of that’s a hell of an NDA um just on contract negotiations for small screen as well good authority that you had a very Hands-On approach to how you were represented in the kick is that is that true absolutely not had the actor had to have the perfect golf swing to mimic your real life no I did suggest that there should be some golf involved but I last script I got and I got prom with Philip Smith about this the last script I saw the scene where I was introduced I was on the barbecue kids around me hectic Sunday morning you know whatever the reality was I was in on a white leather couch and a deep V Christ Redeemer t-shirt watching the Test match by myself Buffalo Stella ATA and that was the bit that got me I I was in raratonga when it came out I’m like I’m just turning off my phone turned off my phone woke up and it just went bang and all it was was nice Lether couch Buffalo you know yada yada yada yada yada so no that was so again to fill the back story yeah the story I had heard is that you were adamant that the actor representing you in the movie had to have a good golf swing and you offered to pay to get a stunt double of because it was of that much importance I I am sure I probably did comment that they had to have a reasonably good golf swing I wouldn’t have I wouldn’t have offered to pay to do it but is that something sorry does that something that come come across your disc as well as as as a representatives of Steven Donald yep wow y we we did um you know I mean they do it without them right like but Phil Smith’s great great guy and he came and said you know we’ve got this concept and um you know it would be way better if Steven can be part of it and so yeah we’ve done a few sort of movies or whatever and you they’re pretty unique different sort of scenarios to go through the whole funding mechanisms and what you’re actually looking at and looking at Scripts still a lot of reading books to screen them to make sure that there’s nothing in there that of course that shouldn’t be there or you know or that they might want to think about um but yeah that was that was that was that was the first one we did and we learned a bit Richie mccor Beats by Dre did that go that come through you guys that was Dino yep yep Dean hegan did that that was cool you know like that was I didn’t wasn’t down at the shoot um Dean always takes those sort of lovely trips he amazing how many trips he gets to go away to these amazing places and stuff but it was pretty they had two helicopters like full production and the the the output of that was pretty awesome so it I mean it’s far more than just contracts and eyes and tees isn’t it like even just in that three minute exchange every day must be so different well they are yeah y there’s a degree of same same but everything is different you know like the the the product of the discussion or the negotiation is often the same and that it’s a sign contract and somebody’s agreed to play rugby for somewh but the journey and how you get there is just so different like and I you know every day I sort of think oh well I’ve seen it all you know done this 20 years or whatever I’ve seen it all you’re always surprised you know sometimes it’s good surprise sometimes it’s not such a good surprise but everything is different but that’s humans are different right and everyone’s just a bit different SS it’s such a unique uh job you’ve got like how many would how many professional agents would they be in New Zealand uh well in the rugby space I think there are 12 accredited agents and I would say just over half of them a full time right so you probably get this a lot but do you get people saying I want to do what you do and and you say well okay chances are you’re not going to be able to do what I do um don’t I don’t try to crush dreams like very careful with you very no no you yeah you do um you know and I really respect someone that’s got um the courage to reach out and ask for a coffee or a zoom or or whatever it tends to be sort of young people that are heading off to University you know who might be friends of you know Sons or Daughters of friends or whatever who you know trying to figure out what to take and I really want to get in the sports industry so should I do a law degree or should I do Finance or marketing or whatever and then you’ll get the people at the other end who you know might be three or four years into a career and just want to sort of change and have an interest in sport or whatever and um we’re always pretty when I say we I mean the team are always pretty good at um at you know somebody sees an email through we’ll always reply um if we can make time we’ll sit down and and have a y with them and um like this is and and I mean that’s kind of cuts both ways a little bit because like if we need a new person I’m not putting it it in the paper you know like because you know you sift through the applications and all that sort of stuff so there’s always a reason to go and sit down with people who are interested and see where they’re at and you there is a list of people that are kept there that you know one day if we needed something in particular you know you might go knock on the door and you know there’d be a few doors you knock on to hey let’s pick up that conversation and see where you’re at one of those youngsters can slip under your wing the same way you did underwar open your door for someone and it’s probably the frustrating one of the most frustrating things um is we get a lot of applications for interns and all that sort of stuff but it’s just a really hard industry to be able to give a a worthwhile experience too because of the the confidential and sensitive n you know like if you’re sitting there talking about a contract oh here’s work experience guy you know like it’s not going to work you know and that I I particularly cuz lore is the complete opposite right like you have to do your clerkship you know you you sort of have to really work your way up and all that sort of stuff so um I wish we could do more of that stuff um but we just can’t really so if you were a 42y old looking to be taken under the wing of New Zealand’s one of New Zealand’s top podcast guy now top agents and you had a podcast business on the side what’s of attributes would you need to be successful in your business um I generally think the biggest one’s empathy like you need empathy in this because you need to relate to people right you need to understand what you’re going through or and even that’s a negotiation I think you need to you know you need to know people you need to know their cues you need to be able to walk on people’s shoes you really need to think objectively because if you like in your negotiation if you come in from one side and you haven’t thought about some of the arguments are going to come against you or the way they’re going to see it or whatever um you know you’re going to really struggle you got to have thick skin you know like a lot of the people that come and ask how to be an agent it’s like go and get some scars I don’t care what you do just go and get beaten up get some black eyes get some blood noses out in the The Real World um get some life experience because how do you expect to to people to trust you and how do you expect to be able to give advice if you haven’t actually lived and been through some stuff yourself I don’t really know what it is um and you know you got to have the courage of your convictions and I guess that’s a little bit of thick skin like I said before you can’t you can’t choose your battles in this like you you have to stand up every time right and you got to have awkward conversations and you know you just got to have that view that what I’m arguing was right you know and even if you don’t believe it’s right sometimes you have to argue it because that’s your job so you know you’ve got to really be quite strong and strong willed and um you know have that desire to fight when when it when you need to I suppose we’ve got a mate Sean goldsbury who said in any negotiation you never put the first number down does that Reign true we hate putting a number down first but now I’ve just given that away oh [ __ ] yeah is in trouble no it’s good it’s good no well you do right like that’s the hardest thing closing a deal is just anxious cuz have you left money on the table and particularly it’s not like I’m terrible negotiated for myself but when it’s somebody else you know like I care like right you don’t want to leave anything on the table so that’s why you never want to go first yeah good good tips um that’s been epic man I’ve just been transf like there there I know we’ve covered a lot of ground but some really good stuff um I will just say before we do wrap up now that we’ve had you on you’re kind of the gateway to your book so we’re coming we’re coming after everyone on there Will up good luck again Co Warren every day for the next 365 days that’s the plan hey thank you so much for coming in and sharing your time and sharing so much of you I think it’s been a really cool and interesting chat yeah yeah Fanboy like it’s been fascinating just to understand the mechanics and I think all of the parts that you don’t see as a as a punter as a fan around the headlines of they’ve renegotiated they’re going to leave the country to realize that there’s someone advocating for them on their behalf but has also got a 360 view of of all of the um of all the parties in the equation I think it’s also I’ll give you a bouquet here as well like when we did look for research Avenues you gave us the full Gambit of talk to these people cuz I work for them talk to these people CU I work with them um and talk to these people cuz they’re in my corner as well so it was yeah it’s it’s it’s awesome and it’s exactly what you spoke about about being really considered about everything involved in the deal no worries it was much more enjoyable than I thought it was going to be here we go good last week no thanks thanks fellas I really appreciate it thank you de
7 Comments
1st
Always great conversations with amazing people…thanks again!
Great post. Bart Campbell is an amazing guy too.
You two needed ask some proper question instead of these bullshit ones …simon is always going to give corporate answers
Between 2 waters
I loved this conversation. I always wondered how this all worked and interesting to see how players are supported as they exit rugby/sport. Simon is a good dude, I ran into him a few times at an old gym on the North Shore we all trained at many years ago and he was always really friendly, no wonder he’s a top agent
Shoutout to North Shore Rugby!
Come down for a great atmosphere & a full club rooms