How to Improve Goal Scoring with Steve Sullivan | Glass and Out Podcast

In episode 263 of the Glass and Out Podcast, Phoenix Jr. Coyotes 18U AAA Head Coach Steve Sullivan Dan Watson shares how to improve a player’s goal scoring ability, why stubbornness played a key role in his hockey journey, and why team success is about being predictable within but unpredictable to your opponent.

TIMESTAMPS:
0:00 Coyotes situation in Phoenix
4:40 Growing up in Timmins
9:45 How youth hockey is changed
14:05 Playing junior in the Soo
20:00 Playing for Ted Nolan
25:05 Acclimating to the AHL in New York
30:35 Being stubborn leading to success
32:35 Playing in New Jersey/Jacques Lemaire
38:40 Adapting as an undersized player
42:00 Details that he stresses with his team
47:40 Finding time for reps
53:55 Influence from time as skills coach
1:00:00 Improving goal scoring
1:07:00 Puck over glass incident
1:11:05 Ingredients to be a good PKer
1:15:15 Next chapter of career
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[Music] what what’s the vibe around there with the coyotes is it um like are people really sad was it expected is it was it like you know just nice to have closure what’s no um it’s sad it’s a it’s a it’s a it’s a sad time and um and a lot of unknowns right now obviously um you know you you have an NHL team here for you know since you know 98 or wherever they came here and um you’re able to grow the game um and and use the coyotes as a um you know you know a source in regards to you know what you’re trying to accomplish as a hockey player you get to look up to the NHL stars and people that you can look up to and and try to emulate and and um you know like the awesome Matthew is of the world and so you have those things that you’re trying to to to get done and now that it’s not here um you know what’s you know how does that affect it so um I I you know the way that was going it wasn’t going to be sustainable either um to be honest with you um I thought the move to to Tempe was not a bad one in regards to if that’s where you were going to build your rink you were already showing your fan base exactly you know what it was going to look like so you’re kind of preparing them for that that makes a lot of sense but um the accessibility to tickets were was impossible um and yeah well just because um it’s smaller venue they they’re trying to um extrapolate as much as they could for for Revenue which is you know what you’re trying to accomplish if you’re an owner and but uh the accessibility to to young kids um when you have a 177,000 seat Arena uh you have an upper bow that’s you know 15 20 $25 tickets um you can bring two young kids and and have them fall in love we we all know that as much as the game has gotten a lot better with HD and watching it on TV there’s nothing better than hockey watched live so having them kind of go and watch live is where you really fall in love with the game and um even at the Tempe for another two three four maybe even five years um wasn’t sustainable and I don’t think it would have helped um the area with growth of hockey anyway so um leaving is is hurts but I I I hope it comes back here uh very soon it’s it’s interesting man we did a study a bunch of years ago and it was on um like international hockey and you know some countries that you know how they’ve had to build up their system so we looked at uh you know ltia Switzerland and we kind of compared their rankings in from 94 to the Olympics in 2014 in SOI and it’s like it takes 20 years to sort of build a pipeline and that’s pretty much almost dead on with what happened here and it’s it sucks because it just seems like right now it’s not just good it’s great from a talent development standpoint but it takes like even like Nashville hasn’t Nashville seems like it’s just from a Grassroots level getting there you’re not wrong and I and to be honest with you um Nashville’s starting to pick up and I think it’s truly with this new ownership group and uh what those this group has done in the last you know 10 12 15 years um of building more ranks you need accessibility to the you know for people to play like we’re capped out here we don’t have enough sheets of ice um for growth we’re we’re we’re we’re capped out and to be honest with you I just don’t think there’s enough people that um would want to invest in regards to how expensive it is to build especially you know with inflation right now trying to build a hockey rink would be um you know incredibly expensive and I just don’t think and and the only people that should be building it would probably be the owner of the NHL team because he has an in you know he’s invested in the growth of that he’s going to be able to reap the benefits of that going further and it’s generational he probably has kids or he’s going to sell the he’s going to sell it all when he get when he’s done so he’s got reasons to build but um we we we we were done like we need more ice here for Phoenix to grow anymore I think we’re capped out in regards to to growth High School hockey’s grown so much too and um you know people that are playing High School hockey it’s amazing but um you know they’re they’re they’re practicing at 5 six o’clock in the morning or at you know 10 o’clock at night uh and that’s fighting against men’s league um who’s trying to get those times so the game is we don’t have enough ice here anymore so um if and when it comes back um I I hope um ownership group um you know decides that you know that’s going to be an important thing is um the growth is going to have to come you know with more sheets of ice not just the NHL sheet talk to me about growing up in timit oh uh great great town to grow up in um you know I just uh you know small small town um just lot a lot of winner um so if you know if if you got you got a lot of winner it goes a long time so um you know I mean like we got you know you have your you know you have your snowsuit on before Halloween um so it’s uh you know you’re you’re you’re on the pond you’re on the you’re on the road playing street hockey with some snow on it very very early uh lot there was a ton of outdoor ranks when I was growing up the city probably put up you know eight nine 10 outdoor ranks I think every every school so many schools elementary schools put up rinks in their in their on their property um so like I went to when I was going to school I brought you brought my you brought your stick like I’d stick handle to school in the morning I probably had about a you know 10 12 minute walk I’d stick handle to school you get there um you know there was no Nets but um you know you’d have snowbanks as Nets we had a we did have a rink in the um in the back of the school but you know obviously the older kids got access to that so you know I when I was in grade three four and five uh maybe grade five I got to play with the older ones but grade three and four you just played beside it bunch of boys and like when the when the when the bell went we all just walked towards W the school and there was a you know a couple garbage cans you just threw your stick out and it just stayed there you took your boots off you went in recess you know you get 15 minute recess twice a day you go out grab your stick you go play hockey it was you know after school you go home pretend you did your homework tell your parents you did your homework but I you know I’d have my skates on I had an older brother who obviously um you know was passionate about the game and and I was able to you know leech off of him a little bit so we we put our skates on and go to the outdoor rank soon as soon as school was over you know the roads were frozen right so as long as you stayed where the sand or the salt wasn’t you could just skate to the rank on the side of the road jump on the jump on the outdoor rink and play and then come home and um you know we lived in a little duplex and I wouldn’t even take my skates off you know you put your skate guards on you’d walk up to the stairs sit at the sit at the table eat dinner and then my brother and I we go right back out till um you know till 8 9:00 whatever time the you know bedtime was and come back home so I was access to ice access to you know to to free time like that was U was huge for me I I um so I you know growing up there it was amazing and like I said it was long so those you you you played right into February March um you know I think that you know we didn’t start golfing until probably long weekend of May is when the snow probably left end of May beginning of June so I mean besides that there was you played a ton of hockey so like you talk about reps I just I got a ton of free reps that had nothing to do with with a coach with me right it was just me and figuring it out on my own so as much as we tell the kids today go into the garage and go shoot or go in the backyard and shoot and you’re just shooting into nothing I was actually felt like it was you were learning something without having to learn it wasn’t felt like it was forced you’re going out with all your buddies everybody played everybody played hockey so we were always together so you didn’t realize that the work you were putting in and the Reps you were getting um you know because of it was fun it wasn’t just the go do this Dad saying shoot more pox like you’re just doing it because you loved it and everybody else did it so um blessed that I was able to to grow up there so you know I think a lot of people would look back on your career and say that um you were a really skilled player but I think in particular people would say that you were a very competitive player when you talk about being in an environment where you know you’re probably that kid in grade one that wants to go and play with the grade three and four it’s like I is that maybe where those seats get planted is just trying to get your elbows up and get in the game uh yeah we thought it out and to be honest with you like um like I said I had an older brother I was the benefit of that he was you know he’s a I’m a 74 he’s a 70 so he’s we’re three and a half years apart almost four years probably four school grades apart I followed him I went I mean when he he went and played with his buddies I would follow and they be he’d be like sit in the snow bank and wait for your turn and you’d wait and then you’d get out there and get when you got a chance You’ jump on the ice and go play and then I was you know um my dad um coached him um you know probably you know peewees and bantams and guess what I went to almost every practice with them just because I was you know I you know luckily I could skate so I wasn’t like you know falling down I I could keep up with most of the drills but I benefited from playing with older kids that um that push me and I didn’t want to embarrass my dad or my brother and so I it forced me to make sure that um I was given it everything I had but I benefited from from skating with older kids and getting pushed at early age and so that yeah I every time you get you get an inch you want a foot so of course every time you you want to continue to have that opportunity so yeah I I I definitely um had that Competitive Edge from an early age do do you think like we’re looking back on it now and I mean I mean kids today get on the ice probably as much as you did there’s just a price tag um associated with with every time that they do and there’s you it’s it’s it’s probably very structured there’s coaches um around you know if you grew up in timens today do you think that environment still provides you the opportunity to to reach the level that you did um or do you think that we’re maybe sort of caught in this area where there may have been a lot of pressure for you to go to you know the privatized campsies Etc yeah I I think I think you’re we’re caught in that area yeah um like you said I I I I you you’re right the every kid is on the I we’re on the ice you know probably five times a week if we don’t travel during the week and um but there’s always a coach there’s always a coach there’s always a practice plan and listen I think there’s some huge benefits to that but I think that I benefited a lot from unstructured not having somebody in my ear like I mean like and I don’t know how it is across the rest of the country but ice here isn’t cheap we’re looking at the $4500 $4 or $500 an hour so if we’re going on the ice we want to make sure we accomplish as much as we can so that you know the kids are are benefiting from from the price tag so we’re not we’re not trying to you know allow a lot of free time uh and a lot of the Reps that we’re asking the kids is like let’s go so you’re you’re not allowing that freedom in regards to like hey it’s okay to make mistakes or you I mean drills that you’re just going to allow to failure um you’re trying to accomplish something so I do think that there’s a little bit of a price tag that that we’re paying in regards to um you know not having that unstructured hockey you’re right I just I just feel like now that the world is so much smaller with all the coaching that we’re getting and which is amazing um but I feel like everyone’s chasing right everyone’s chasing the next Camp everybody’s chasing the next uh the next fad regards to how are you teaching it and I’m gonna go I’m gonna go do a weak Camp because I’m gonna get better at stick handling if you truly don’t believe if you truly believe that then you know you’re going to have an issue with me because I feel like your coach was with you for seven months like I’m pretty pretty sure he’s taught you way more in seven months that you’re going to get in that week with him now will you learn a tidbit will you get you know you know a little bit of a skill set but at the end of the day like let’s not think that you’re just going to get that during that one week um you know you have to get curious you have to be able to kind of try to figure it out on your own and and you have to obsess about it so um that you’re you’re you are on your own figuring it out that’s what I love about is can can these kids I you know we just picked our team for next year now they have all summer that I’m not really going to be with them I’m you know so I ended up implementing a couple of mandatory testing days just to see you know where they’re at so now they know that there’s a date coming that they’re going to have to be in shape and that they’re G just not not because um I think that’s super super important I just don’t want you to be behind when we start in August because the train starts moving and if you’re not in shape well that’s not it’s not my job as a coach is to get you in shape my job is to try to teach you to get to the next level so if you’re not taking care of yourself so you implement a couple of these workout things but I hope and I tell them what’s your what’s your home what’s your home routine what’s your daily routine at home how many parks are you shooting how how often are you playing with a golf ball and a stick in the garage are you taking 15 minutes a day I’m not asking you to to spend the whole day doing it but I mean yeah we all you play video games in between video games in between loading up just grab your stick and stick handle look at the screen or when you you know you’re playing Call of Duty and you die grab your stick and like do so like just keep talking to your buddies on your headphones but are you are you obsessed enough to be able to want to do that so I think that that’s where we’re kind of getting lost in the specialization um of the sport um I just don’t think it’s as homegrown as it as it as it could be yeah and I I totally agree with you I think at the end of the day like you know that’s sort of the the litness test is just our kids and you can’t teach that you can’t buy it but you know our kids going to be motivated just to solve that Rubik’s Cube figure it out and um you know kind of make that thing come to life you know that they might be envisioning in their head and you know I bring up the Timmons thing because it’s you know I knew that Timmons was in Northern Ontario and so of course you go on you know Google Maps and you see it and it’s there and you see the little line of town and you zoom out and there’s nothing else around it and you zoom out again and there’s nothing and again there’s nothing nothing nothing until finally you see like Sous St Marie and beyond that Thunder Bay I’m like man like there’s nothing around that but you know I remember coaching Junior Hockey and you know you’d go on these scouting trips to the Prairies and you you know as you drive into every little town you see the sign that says home of know NHL player and I and I I’m thinking man like just from the I guess the heritage of our game like I hope we never lose that our kids you know never grow up in these small towns or maybe they don’t have access to everything and feel like gosh because I don’t live in Saskatoon or Phoenix or Vancouver you know maybe I’m not going to be able even despite putting the work in I still might not be able to realize you know the goal that I have but I also understand that’s a it’s probably a bigger uh problem than than we’re capable of of solving today um but I I did read so mean you grow up in timid um the Sous St Mary or the Sous St Mary Greyhounds um you know effectively are a dynasty and they’re still one of the you know um you know have such a rich tradition um my understanding is you get invited when you’re 16 years old to go to camp at that time there was the 48 hour rule meaning that if if you wanted to keep your NCAA eligibility um you had 48 hours to be in Camp and you had to make a decision whether you’re going to sign or move on I read that Sher basson who is you know a legend in junior hockey circles I mean he put the yie otter together um when Conor McDavid was there um he was the GM of s St Marie at the time my understanding is you go up there for Camp tear it up he calls you your mom and your dad into his office sits you down on the couch and the first words out of his mouth are what are you doing here we don’t need a jockey is that accurate yeah it is it is uh yeah the first my yeah it’s hilarious that was my first year and he’s just kind of like so you know what you know yeah exactly so 48 hours there was we had two ice sessions a day four games um and you know I you know I thought I did really really well and when he called me in and brought my parents in and um the first time for the first year he wanted me to play exhibition games um and I just uh you know my dad was there and he’s like I we can’t do it we just can’t we can’t do exhibition games you know we’re just starting to get some some traction with some NCAA schools um you know so I I just we can’t lose that eligibility we can’t lose that that path so he can’t play and sher’s like well I I really think that you know if you play there’s a there’s a good chance but you know we’ve got a couple first round picks and so uh we need you we need we just need to see it play against other kids and other other teams and we didn’t do it we wed we went home went back and then um and then the as the story continues it was the next year when I came back he invited me again so I wasn’t drafted I was even even no I wasn’t I was invited and then even went back and I put up I went back and played um tier 2 Junior in Timmons so my dad my dad started up the Tim’s Golden Bears oh I didn’t realize he started that no clue yeah so my dad started it because my brother had left you know three years before that when my brother was 17 he left and tried to go and try to do the Junior B route went and played for the for the Peter bro peterb Peach junr B Team um and and then he got home second came home and my dad was looking at me and saying like I don’t want him to get homesick why do we have to leave so young so he started a junior team so I ended up being on that inaugural team as a 17-year-old played Junior at home and then put up some some pretty good numbers and then so the Sue invited me back and then same thing 48 Hours again U this time here um he Sherry brought us back into the office and then um you know made that joke uh about it and then uh and then and then but then offered me a you know a full a full school boy package at the time which was you know full books tuition room and board um for for a walk- on which was unheard of at the time so um you know it was I’m indebted to him like he he never gave up on me he’s the one that gave me that first opportunity and you’re right um my two years in the Sue are um I I still think about them I just you know we just finished um we just finished uh moving into a new home and uh I finally put all my you know stuff into frames that I thought was yeah and um you know I’ve got you know six NHL jerseys up on the wall I’ve got a hockey Canada Jersey when I went and played at the world championships and definitely got my sus Sam Marie Greyhound’s Jersey up on the wall because that’s um it’s a part of my path that U I’m you know I’m I’m fond of I you know I I bet and I mean it’s it’s on the bucket list it’s obviously a little tougher to get to but you know we work really closely with um the Ontario Minor Hockey Association they’re executive director Ian Taylor has become a really good friend and his son Brandon is an assistant coach there now and he was in Miss Saga previously and um you know Ian makes a couple trips up there per year per year and he just says Aon he’s like you don’t understand he’s like it’s not even just walk M the ring it’s waking up the morning of like on a game day going through town There’s the red jerseys the coffee shops buzzing he goes it’s just it’s right out of a movie um and he’s like the the team and the players and the staff get treated so well what I didn’t realize though was I knew that you guys won the Memorial Cup that first year I didn’t realized that they that was their third consecutive trip to the Memorial Cup all under Ted Nolan yeah talk to me about playing under Ted Nolan yeah um what what an experience um you know uh my so you you know you grow up and it’s youth hockey right it’s youth hockey your whole time going up and back then it’s a little bit different than it is today I think youth hockey now with a lot of coaches and a lot of experience in sites like your own and um have gotten a lot better but I mean for me in no disrespect I think I I learned a lot from the people that uh that helped me along the way but it’s a completely different animal than it is now um you know you’re just going to play and you got you know you know your drills and you you know not a lot of systems you don’t really know you know you’re learning the game a little bit but um getting to the Sue and being with Teddy and and and Danny Flynn was our assistant coach too who’s yeah exactly so um so like so when I get there um it was the you know and then I had obviously I had my father as a as a 17-year-old coaching Junior but then again even talking to my dad now it’s like um you know what his knowledge of the game was versus you know what I was able to get past that um Teddy was unbelievable like just what a what a motivator like you know he just he had a way of him of making you buy into what was going to happen he prepared you in regards to like we we were going to war like you know I I wouldn’t sit here and say that he was the best X’s and O’s person not knowing that as a as an 18 19 year old um but afterwards but I I we we’d all line up to go through the Zamboni door for him if he was on the other side like he just he just you know he respected us and he you know he protected Us in regards to like uh you just knew what his passion level was and what he was trying to accomplish and um you know he pushed us hard but you know you knew why he was doing it um yeah it was it was amazing for me to have him as a coach for the first couple years to to understand like here’s here’s how hard it’s going to be but here’s how hard we’re going to go but but but I’m going to make it fun and we’re you know um and you’re going to enjoy you’re going to enjoy and reap the benefits at the end of the year so um I I I loved them as a coach do you recall and I think you know anybody that get coached or played Junior Hockey we can all recognize that there’s a hierarchy and and I and I look at your stats from that year you come in as a rookie you’re you’re one of the top scorers it’s one thing to have the skill set to perform on the ice but then there’s this other aspect where you’re coming in as as a rookie as a teenager and and we all you know look back at ourselves at that point in our life and you know the difference between 17 and 20 is immense you’re your boys playing with men and we also know that all of a sudden like it’s great to come in and play well but in a lot of environments um that’s not always uh viewed favorably by maybe some of the the older players like do you remember like what do you think enabled you to come in there and and you know what would seem to be you know establish yourself very quickly as a as a go-to player because and that seemed to serve you for the you know duration of your career yeah um yeah I’ll get to that but like to be honest with you I was a fourth line guy really oh yeah you’re like point game fourth line guy point a game fourth line guy so um Whenever there was injuries Whenever there was uh if we were struggling a little bit um if he was trying if Teddy was gonna kind of shake things up he needed something you know I would get booted up to the to the you know first or second line for a little bit but I was uh you go back and look um even in the Memorial Cup I scored a goal in the championship game game in the moral cup but I don’t I don’t think I got 10 shifts in that game um I was a I was a fourth line guy so I got a I I I played I played on the top two lines U you know Jared Reed was one of our top centerman he got injured I played when he was injured I played up and then uh Ralphie inal went to the World Juniors so he left early December didn’t come back till um January so I played on in his spot for about for almost a month there too so whenever I got those opportunities I think I took advantage of them um but at the end of the day yeah no I was um I was an 18-year-old rookie who played on the fourth line uh pretty consistently and that’s um you know and and had to had to figure it out did I like it no um you know and I think my you know a little bit of my stubbornness in regards to like you know in my in my ability of of myself to say I I can do this and um I want to do this so that’s what kind of kind of keeps me going but um but yeah so the for that first year I was uh I was more of a more of a fourth line fourth line Center for them that um just got spotted in here and there well you know what I just think there’s so much and I’m you know I’m fascinated because you know you know you and I are you know about the same age and you know I I certainly didn’t have anywhere close to the career you did but I I can remember getting traded in junior hockey without a phone and like I didn’t know where I was going like I had to go I had L to walk down to a bus Ste have phone so I you know so I look at your case here so you go from smalltown Tim Ontario you go to Sous St Marie which was probably felt like a big city you’re a ninth round pick of the New Jersey Devils so now you’re going to New York City and and playing I think it was uh Albany in uh in the American League and I’m like man like your eyes must have been as biggest saucers and I and I think that you know and I don’t know if you can relate to this but I think being a sometimes you realize like when your kids are like there there’s there’s an emotional side of this whole journey and then that’s where you know some kids fall off because they don’t pass the puck well enough but a lot of kids fall off because their eyes are as big as saucers and it’s they’re maybe not prepared for that end of it do you recall what it was like going through that whole experience and getting acclimated and yeah it was um yeah it was it was an eye opener and like and and to be quite honest with you like um I I I didn’t have I had very little experience like I had very little experience in regards to like um of playing any type of highlevel hockey before major Jr which was six hours from home but you know I I think I play you know you play 33 home games a year so I played 66 home home games in the Sue regular seasons I think my I think my dad saw 60 games I think my dad my dad and my brother would drive yeah my dad and brother would drive down watch the game and drive back right like it was like there to them they were watching me so I had a lot of still had a lot of support from family and so didn’t feel like in and the Sue is a little bit bigger than Timmons but it’s not like as if I was in ashaa or if I was in London Ontario it still kind of has a little bit of a small town field to it um so I was lucky there but yeah you’re right so then when I get dropped into uh the middle of New York or New Jersey you know right down the street um yeah it was and I I just didn’t know like I just i’ had never been I’d never been to like a u a hockey Canada Camp I I didn’t know any I didn’t know anybody I didn’t know you know back then you know the hockey news is all we had like you said you had no cell phone like so we you you didn’t have the internet you didn’t right yeah yeah you watch the hockey news to see you know like who was who was doing what that was your hockey knowledge um or you listen to you know sports radio but so knowing other kids you who was drafted where and who was the first round pick and I I had no clue I I not like today where you you follow on the Internet or you’re going to see it on TV no idea so I think being a little naive that in that way probably also helped me a little bit in regards to um you know that the moment was big um but I didn’t know who was who I didn’t know who our first- round draft pick was I didn’t know who um I mean to be honest with you you you I mean being the same age you remember Kristoff olwa you remember the big tough guy Kristoff yeah big fighter he was the first guy I saw on the ice uh I went and got you know I got the training camp um went and got my GE went and got my gear you know you know my t-shirt and shorts and stuff my bag my laundry bag I put my stuff on I went I wasn’t going on the ice for a couple hours so I went out to watch and he’s the first guy I saw come down the ice and six foot five skated like the wind fired a puck I don’t know I don’t remember the goalie was but top shelf and he skated right behind I was I was right behind the net and he skated behind the net and I looked up at him and I’m like I don’t know if I can do this like right this like is I I don’t look like that out there right so but then you get on the ice and you then you figure out that you know like he’s not even going to make the team and he was up with me in Albany and he was a fourth line guy and you don’t realize like know in drills is different than in the game once the puck drops and you start kind of playing the game and feel it um you know it was it was I felt at home I never felt like I was um out of place once I was on the ice and the puck dropped it just it came natural so uh I that’s where I felt the most comfortable so everything else that was off the ice you know I you kept to yourself I didn’t like I said I didn’t really know anybody I didn’t go to the I didn’t go to the draft I was at a Canadian Tire getting a lawn more when I got drafted my dad um you know so I I was we were’re not very um good with tools so we needed a new lawnmower so we went to my brother and I went to Canadian Tire to get a lawnmower and we were asking them like we’ll buy it but you guys got to put it together so the guys were putting it back together my brother and I were screwing around in the store and then finally you know my dad was working for molson’s so finally we when we got back back to the car he had one of those the first car phones you know the ones that were like on a stand yeah so he he called it and there’s like you know so my brother answered it and he’s like you better get home New Jersey just called you you were drafted I didn’t even realize it was draft day to be quite honest with you I didn’t even recognize didn’t remember that um it was the NHL draft that day so I got home and got a phone call from from Jersey and then that that so that’s how kind of a little naive I was with the whole schema thing so um I think that might have helped I might have helped that you know I didn’t get overwhelmed by the moment and didn’t know a lot of the guys so I kept to myself kept quiet and you know just kind of went out my business well I think it was just yesterday on uh 32 thoughts La freedman’s podcast they were talking about that there’s been some discussions you know at the NHL draft about reducing it to four rounds because the odds of a player drafted beyond that signing a contract let alone ever playing one game is so slim to none um you know you go in as a undersized ninth round pick and and frankly an arrow like I there must be times when you’re like man if I had have been born 20 years later watch out um but you I just you go back to you mentioned a stubbornness you know out of all the things all the ingredients it takes to to have know to play a thousand games in the National Hockey League where does stubbornness rank in terms of how it might have led to your success yeah probably pretty high I mean you know it probably hurt me too you know um sometimes more than once but um you know if I think if you’re not if if you don’t have that that self-belief if you don’t you know um you know take no for an answer um you know kind of just I I don’t know if you’re able to kind of get through the there’s going to be so much so many hard days there’s going to be so much uh rejection throughout throughout the time’s there it’s not going to be a an um you know an even climb to get there you’re going to have to be able to kind of have some stubbornness to yourself and um and I and you know and and and believe you know the information you’re giving like the information that was given to me was probably the right stuff but I was probably just too stubborn to say I don’t agree with you I don’t believe you and I’ll prove you wrong yeah um but um so I feel like that’s probably you know it kind of just you know stubbornness competitiveness kind of come in one to one for for me so I feel like um it has to rank up there very very high uh you go to Albany play to Robbie ftor win a cder Cup Championship you’re on a bit of a heater now um you know two rings but then you go to Jersey and and jacqu Lam’s your coach and and that you got a dressing room full of you know future Hall of Famers but you know jacqu in particular um seemed to be ahead of his time what do you recall about playing for him and and what might have you learned early on under under his tenure a savant of the game um like like I um I mean I I think I might have played you know 40 50 games under under under jaw you know couple training camps um you know some healthy scratches in there too but um he so first of all the first time I get called up um after pregame skate he calls me in it was like a very informal pregame skate I don’t know if it was a back toback for them um but not everybody was on the ice so we weren’t doing lion rushes we weren’t doing any some sort of that so uh when I came off the ice he’s like hey come to my office he came in my office he’s like hey just just going to let you know that um you’re going to play left wing tonight and I looked at him and I was like well Mr Lam mer I said um I I I play center and I I shoot right you know he’s like oh I I know but you’re going to play left wing I’m like I don’t I don’t I don’t think I can he’s like well you don’t he’s like you don’t want to or you don’t think you can because if you don’t want to then we have an issue if you don’t think you can you know I’m here to help you so and right from the GetGo he just recognized that my game um as a centerman wasn’t going to translate to the next level yeah um and he wanted to to expose my speed the way he played within his system was me coming across the ice um uh and using my asset to try to get away from away from the wall get back into the middle of the ice but um not having a the responsibility play down low and to be quite honest with you I played left wing you know lucky enough to play a thousand games I I might have played a you know 80 or 90 at Center out of a necessity for for injuries with teams but besides that um I never went back I never went back to to to Center so um but the my favorite thing is you know it was um it was the our second game so the first game was a blur and I you know he didn’t talk to me very much during the game I think he just you know understood that I was in the moment and just let it go and I probably wasn’t going to be able to kind of uh take in anything that he was going to give me anyways you know you’re such you’re so nervous and you know you just want to keep it very simple but I remember in in game two coming to the bench and him kind of putting his arm around me and EXP explaining what happened in the shift and what I had done and what I need to be looking for as the play was still going on like I it was you the game was still playing it wasn’t a whistle the game was still being played and I was like okay yeah yeah makes sense good good thank you very and I moved and I watched him grab the next guy and do the same thing and in my head I was like how did you see that like how did you see what he was doing when you were explaining to me what I had to do from the shift before yeah like so I you know I just truly believe um I just truly believe that he just saw the game um you know I don’t think he was you know as a hockey player he was a little bit more defensive minded um you know obviously one of the the best two-way players to to ever play and so he probably wasn’t as talented as as Wayne grety but I can truly truly I truly believe that the game was probably the same speed for Jaa ler that it was for Wayne like I just I just don’t think I think the game he was able to slow the game down and understood it and with was able to kind of understand what was coming next before a lot of other people I I truly believe he saw two three plays ahead of of what was going on so um it was a treat um but he was super quiet he he didn’t talk to his players a lot there wasn’t a lot of I didn’t to be honest with you he uh I was still staying in a hotel across the street from our practice facility when I got traded to Toronto and he came and Robbie foror was my assistant coach obviously I had him in the miners for for the year so Robbie um you know I come over and saw me earlier in the morning and then we weren’t flying out till like four o’clock and then I got a knock at the door like at two o’clock and I opened the door and it was J yeah J came in and um I was packed up right everything was packed I was just waiting to get picked up and he’s you know small little chitchat and told me a few little you know tidbits of my game and where I was really good what I needed to work on and told me I was going to be a successful player and that you know like this was a good thing for me blah BL blah and you know that I was like he left I ended up calling my Dad I’m like I’m like sh likes me like I you had no idea if he liked you or didn’t like you he was just the coach right so uh and didn’t have a lot of communication with me so it was it was great that um I I I’m I’m fond of the of the short time I was with him that’s pretty cool I know uh one of my partners in the coaches site Ben Cooper um he’s been an assistant with the kanaks Florida he’s over in salsburg now but he was the video coach in 2010 on the Olympic team and uh we did this thing with Mike Babcock last year at our conference and so he’s talking about his staff and um in this slide deck Bennett inserted this picture because you know he would say like jacqu he’s like he didn’t feel like he need to needed to prepare for hours on end it was just like let’s talk keep it simple so he’s like often time he would just like there’d be a staff meeting and he would just leave and he has this picture and it’s like a nice sunny day at the Olympic Village and there’s jacqu on a reclining chair on the rooftop smoking a cigar the sun’s coming down and he’s like that’s where if he he was missing that’s where he’d be so um obviously a really cool experience but again that’s you know you kind of come into the NHL right in an era where you know you know clutching and grabbing the obstruction I mean it seemed like every team would have had six mutants on defense the play I mean you go back and and watch the play in front of the net it’s so violent um how did you have to adapt um your game to be successful and was that something you were mindful of in terms of just saying like hey if if this is gonna this is going to turn into a career I might have to you know find my way around a little bit differently than maybe I did in junior the American League yeah I I don’t know I don’t know if it was if it was ever a thought process but um I don’t think it was I think I just I just played the way I play and I you don’t you don’t when you grow up in it now that we see how the game’s played now yeah do we wish um it could have been played like that forever for sure um but I don’t think I ever had really thought about it I didn’t think it was you don’t know any different right so uh the only thing I can tell you is like um I I understood uh at an early age um what you needed to do to score goals and I understood early on um where most of the goals went in from um so for me um I know I just I I really love to score like I that was like you know I wanted to every time I stepped on the ice every shift I want to score like that was you know um you know that was the driving force and so you you figure out where the goals go in and where do you have to go to score them so uh and like you said at the beginning um I I don’t think I I know I wasn’t the most skilled it’s not I you watch the kids today and the skill when you’re like hey would you rather play in today would you rather play in today’s game I I don’t know I don’t know if I had this I don’t think I have the skill set that these guys have like the way they handle pucks and they do michigans and they the way they like I don’t I did I did not have I was a very straightforward puck in front of me um you know I wasn’t I wasn’t beating too many people one-on-one um so you know I just trying to beat them wi with speed um but so yeah but you know you understand where you have to go to score goals so um you know the only time I’d be very conscious of it is if I hadn’t scored in a while you start looking back and you visualize like how many times have I been you know in that little area you know they call the house now and they call the you know the small slot like I I for me it would be like how many times did you go through there you know in the last three or four games have you I mean have you been through there like are you going there yet like so and then it just becomes a timing thing right and I think that you know if you’re if you’re blessed with a little bit of hockey IQ you can kind of see what’s coming and for me it was a timing thing it was right I’m not I’m not going around there to stand so that you know Adam foot can just decide that he’s just going to cross check me and you know and yeah and face plant me I’m not doing that so you know for me it’s you know is this Puck coming straight to the net or is it going D to D if it’s going D to D then I’m GNA change my route um to a little higher so that it when it gets dto D now I’m there at the right time so it was just more of a timing thing in regards to like trying to figure out when is the puck going there I’m going to be there when the Puck’s there I’m not standing there if the Puck’s not not there yeah that’s well and so part of it part of the reason I bring that up is you know the reason we’re talking is you know um back at Christmas um my wife has family in Calgary we make the trip out there um the max tournament is going on so I arang on one day I’m going to go to the rank hangout see some Pals and um one of the games I end up watching it’s it’s your team um the Arizona Junior K um and you were playing the rink Jerome mcgas team I think it was the first game of the tournament right after boxing day and um and I’m just watching the game and and I’m like man I’m like and I I don’t mean this in any disrespect to your players but my my I’m watching your team play and I’m like the hole was greater than the sum of its parts there wasn’t any weak links there was didn’t seem to be any Superstars but every kid could skape but more than anything that’s when you mentioned the timing like there just seemed to be an overall maturity to your team’s game to their structure how they protected pucks how efficient they were and I was like man like this is a really like this team just looks different at this level and so I texted Brian Sugi who’s you know we’ve worked with and does some work with the coyotes as a skills coach who works with Austin Matthews and I said hey I’m like who coaches this this Arizona team I’m like they’re really good and so he mentioned your name and um so I I just find it’s interesting I mean do you draw any parallels of maybe like when you talk about those timing and some of those nuances part of the game that I mean no nobody signs their kid up for the timing hockey school you know what I mean like it’s one of those things I think you’re either you’re either blessed to figure it out on your own or hopefully you get a coach that is can kind of steer a kid in the direction and point it out but um how much of those little details are things that you might stress today with your team tons right I I I truly believe like there’s got to be there’s got to be room for for all of it like there’s got to be you know you know the the pep system type of skill sets that are done you know you look at how we you know just to give you a quick rundown you know we you know on Mondays that’s what our kids do like uh our kids I don’t go on the ice we have a skills coach and a and a power skating coach he goes on the ice on Mondays and does uh they do half an hour skills half an hour power skating and it’s through cones it’s you know change of angles shots it’s all the stuff that you would do that you would actually consider skills um but on Tuesday um we go back in and we’ll we’ll do we call it development day and it’s it’s either um it’s either it’s usually a split between Fords and D um and then that’s where we start doing you know the skills inside of our systems so um so you start working on routes you start working on um you know here’s how we play here’s how we’re going to have success in how we play and here are the skills that you’re needed to play here so while work becomes one right um getting off the wall trying to fight for Dots um so you just you start kind of just creating um these these routes and these reps and you you’re able to teach them the why right here’s what we’re doing here’s why we’re doing it right so that within our system you know we’re going to go low to high we’re going to go D to D you’re going to be on the flank well here like let’s try to figure out you know where where is your where’s the lane going to be and you’re going to have to you know this Puck’s going to come across you’re going to one time it but now let’s make sure that when you’re kind of timing your skating you’re putting yourself in a position that your weight is on the right you’re ready for it right and if it doesn’t come to you where is it going to go so now you have to make a decision it to come to you I’m ready to shoot it if it goes to the net I’m driving to the net with the puck probably where is it going to come like what are the chances what are the odds what are the percentages of where the Puck’s going to go if it goes off the goalie so that’s what we work on a bunch of different different scenarios in regards to our structure so that um I am pretty pretty structured in regards to how we play but try to create so many different variables and you know opportunities within that to be an individual player so everybody what I try to do is let’s let’s be predictable to ourselves so that we know as teammates where we’re going to be on the ice but let’s be very unpredictable to the other team so that you know you have options within our structure to do certain things you’re coming from you know the Pucks in the corner stalled Puck you win the battle you start to climb the wall here are three different options that I think that you know are pro most likely going to happen in the game so that we all understand if I’m away from the puck what are your three options with it I mean are you under pressure do I need to be second quick because it looks like it’s going to have to be you know we’re gonna we’re going to cycle it down low are you going to be able to cut the corner and get to the net well then I’m going to drive the net and look for a high tip or look for a rebound or is it going low to high then as you know away from the puck where should I be on the ice if this Puck goes low to high so a lot of the stuff that we do is on that day most of it is away from the puck your decision- making away from the puck I want you to have the skills on Monday to understand what to do with it but I truly believe that your decision- making away from the puck is does my you know who am I playing with does he win 50 60 70% of the battles and then maybe I have to get a little closer does he win almost every single battle in the corner well then maybe I don’t have to go so close to him to be able right to be able so understand who you’re playing with so those are small little that you can do uh inside of our practice plans that on that day that we can kind of have those conversations with our know with our depart you know with our players so that you know they can continue to have some success man I I love when you talk about the creativity aspect because I think it’s you know sometimes our worry that gets lost in our game where you know as you noted on those sort of Monday type practices kids work on skills they get creative but you know creativity is worthless if there’s not some form of Oneness within a team and there’s somebody you can play play catch with so to speak when you get into those Tuesdays and you’re having those conversations I is that you know maybe partly video is that putting the kids on a knee and just explaining things on the ice or is there a way that maybe I mean because you talk about reps and and the value that you had as a young player and just getting your reps in um is there a way that can be done in sort of a flu way where there’s coaching but also movement and and action happening at the same time yeah um 500 bucks an hour for ice well that’s it but but the lucky thing about it and the reason why we have that I use that hour is that I believe that we’re on the ice so that that’s the Tuesday we’ll have like an hour and 15 we have Wednesday Thursday ice and then a Saturday session so I still have three other days um where we’re still going to work on some skills but that’s where we’re really going to button down on our structure so that we understand exactly how we play but Tuesdays um is not there’s not a lot of flow to it there’s not you’re not getting a a huge um you’re not getting a huge sweat when you’re on the ice that day we’re trying to we’re we’re just we’re trying to learn those routes those those skills I’m not worried and to be honest with you UMC you know I I’m not a uh I’m not a I think I make I think our practices are are very hard uh the when we do the rep it’s a it’s a little bit of a longer rep and it’s you’re exerting yourself um um and I’m expecting you know five or six reps you know per drill that we’re going to do or per side that we’re going to do uh I don’t like to do conditioning skates but I’m I’m not so worried about the flow of practice to be quite honest with you I think that a lot of coaches get lost in regards to like man that was a great practice okay but what what did they learn like sure they got they got cardio out of it and you didn’t want to stop practice because you get tired of blowing the whistles but I feel like at this age they need to learn you know what’s going on and the but the the benefit I also have is I usually have two assistant coaches um and probably for 60% of practice you know probably the first three or four drills they they run the drill yeah U if it’s not structure-based they run the drill I can teach I can spot coach so I watch the Reps I can go into the corner after he’s finished shooting and going like hey on that one there what were you thinking you know what you you know what you know now that you look at it what’s what were the other options so I can kind of not worry about running the drill itself I can actually go and teach it right and then once we get into structure I grab the whistle back and then um I can run those drills but a lot of times um I’m not I’m not running the drill for that specific reason in regards to like hey you know if we’re doing a regroup hey demand like let’s make sure that we’re loading right mean like let’s not let’s not stick minimize your stick handles like just small little things because you’re right like and we do a ton of video Aon to be honest with you um I do I do a ton of video and um I I think I I think this is at the beginning it’s very uncomfortable for the kids um because I what I try to accomplish with my video is I’m doing a one-on-one video with you in front of everybody else so when I cut the video and we’re going to be in the video room for 45 minutes and we’re going to go through a bunch of skill stuff that happened on the ice or decision making or whatever we’re going through that’s not structure-based um I feel like every other kid needs to learn from that and we just don’t have enough time to go through every single kid every single week to go through all that video so what I’m doing is I’m gonna have I’m gonna show the video and I’m gonna be like hey what what did you why why this why here we’re gonna have like a one-on-one in front of everybody else so they get to they are also getting a rep they’re getting a free rep that they can just sit back in their chair they’re not very nervous because it’s I didn’t call on them but they’re able to learn from that because I just feel like at that young of age you know when videos starting to get introduced they can learn so much from watching somebody else and getting the instruction that I’m giving this one person a one-on-one about a Zone entry or whatever it’s going to be um they can learn from it for free so I feel like I I don’t do a lot of one-on-one video we do a ton of group video because I feel like that’s where at this age you know once you start getting into Junior and pro you I mean they already know a lot of stuff you’re kind kind of correcting here I’m still teaching so I I I don’t want to waste a one-on-one moment to teach one guy when I can actually be teaching 20 so we do a ton of ton of video um you know minimum minimum you know as a whole group minimum twice a week in regards to going upstairs before practice for for 30 or 40 minutes and I’m just pulling one specific thing that happened 8 nine 10 12 times in the game and I usually try to pick on not pick on but try to pick different you know players that have done that that happen too if it’s a wall workor thing or if it’s you know below the goal line plays like what were we thinking here why you know away from the puck why aren’t you getting in a position where we can get this what you know you you know where do stop the video and say where do you think this guy’s going with the play right now why is he gonna go behind the net so why are we well okay so you’re right I’m gonna hit play and watch yourself and why do you stay where you stay right so that you and you watch it you rewind it now what would you do and then have the player through it so then it’s a mental rep so um no I just think like what you just said there I just want to highlight it because I think it’s really valuable because I think so much of um so many video sessions are are likely a one-way conversation but I think as you frame it there that you know there’s a question and saying what do you think you’re going to do or what or what do you think we should do and and creating a bit of a dialogue there I think particularly with kids that that’s a really um valuable exercise you you started your coaching career I believe essentially as soon as you retired as a development coach for you know the then Phoenix Coyotes you know when you talk about these Thursdays and these methods of maybe breaking down say a system or tactic into these small parts and identifying the you know those little details how much of that is maybe informed by you know I would I would think that in that that rule you’re you’re traveling to you know to watch a lot of kids play Junior Hockey but you’re probably watching a lot of practices and you’re probably seeing kids that are really talented maybe they’re not getting the ice they want because they don’t understand the system but it’s or maybe it’s not that they don’t understand the system they just don’t have the they haven’t been taught the the skills within the system to execute it effectively and how detrimental that can be and do you think that that maybe reinforces that and when you’re building kids up today yeah without a doubt um the the benefit I had is um you draft kids and now you’re you’re going to watch them and you’re going to help them with their next couple years their path to Pro Hockey um if they’re playing Junior and you know you might have three years if they’re in college um but you’re going you’re you’re going from Team to team that play a different system so it’s uh it was imperative for me to understand how the team played um you’d never want to give information to a player um you know that would be contradicting his coach in the coaching style and in the system that they’re trying to play so yeah it’s it’s under you have to understand their system so that you can help them but you’re right if they don’t I tell you know you tell the kids today like you know when you’re being taught these systems understand that try to learn it like you’re going to have to you’re going to teach it like you better know your systems well enough that you’re going to teach it something that I wish I would have known as a younger player is paying attention to the system understanding the system so well that you could teach it again so that you’re not thinking on the ice you’re not worried about it now we can work on those individual skills that are going to put you you know have some success with you but you’re right a lot a lot of the times when I go watch the development stuff you are still working on skills but these kids are drafted they’re pretty Elite already uh in regards to the skill set so you you are working more on development in regards to playing inside the systems so for me A lot of times and you know and even when I ended up you know in management and going to watch players before we pick them uh for me it’s routes a lot of times you know what I focused on are routes like you know where do you go when you go and why right I’m looking at that’s the most of the conversations we had a lot of times was that right like it it’s what what why are you going there when you went right what was what was your thought process and working on that you know and then but again I think video is great now because you can you can show them and go back and be okay like it’s easy now it’s easy to look at it now and look at it but now that you let’s watch it again so that you can say okay next time this happens because if it’s if it definitely it’s within a structured system it’s going to happen a lot like if you’re playing a certain system you’re probably going to be put in that position you know probably the next game so you know what what are you looking for next time you know shoulder check a little earlier check to see you know what are what are your checkpoints to say am I staying wide am I to cut through the middle am I holding on to the puck am I going deep with it um so any little thing decision you’re going to make you know what are your checkpoints you know what are your triggers in regards to when and why you leave so let’s make sure that we work on those so if if if I’m on your team you’re say the whiteboard in in practice you mentioned checkpoints is is would that be an example of something that as you’re explaining a drill could be any drill but you might say okay here’s the checkpoint or would you get that deal say Hey you need a shoulder check here look for this specifically and and and take them through that because I again I think it’s so easy for coaches you know the drill is just go around the Pyon turn left shoot you know what I mean like it’s just um yeah we forget that know that’s that’s not how the game’s play no you play yeah yeah no like a lot mean like we you try to mimic game like situation we try to mimic game like situations a lot you know the first couple drills we’re GNA we’re going to we’re going to warm up warm up the goalies and the drills that we’re going to do um are going to be helping with your skills um but but anything after first couple drills everything that we do is is is game is game based so and so if we’re doing that we’re going to implement um a a forc trigger for you to have to make a decision decision if it’s you know you have to watch the coach’s stick let’s make sure let’s so you know we’re going to watch where’s where’s the coach’s stick going to be you know a lot of times you know the um the kids laugh but like you know if I dump a puck in and and the D man’s going back for one um he’s got to turn around and he’s got to look at me I’m gonna have a stick on or the right or left side of of my body at Center I dump the puck in at Center I’m gonna have this my stick on the right or left side you have to shoulder check not just pretend shoulder check you’re gonna have to you’re going to have to figure out what side of my body my stick was and when the rep’s done you’re coming back to tell me what it was left side coach right side coach left side coach so I’m forcing them not to just pretend like it’s a shoulder check you’re actually what are you looking for because in a game right you’re trying to look past your you you know the four checker on your hip you already know that but what’s the next layer what’s the next layer look like so that you know when you cut the corner if you beat your guy you know where’s where are they coming from so let’s let help you recognize that it’s not just two feet behind you you’re looking back at Center Ice to say that’s the next layer coming after us I know what I’m going to do when I turn the net so um you know getting them some free reps like that some of the small little triggers like that is an example that we would Implement into all our drills so that they kind of it’s not just blow the whistle you skate catch a pass go around a cone and shoot like there’s going to have to be um some sort of game like situation where you’re going to have to react or remember or look for for something on the ice that’s a that’s a great hack and you mentioned um wallor earlier and it’s funny in the time that we’ve been doing the show I would say that every year there seems to be like these underlying themes that sort of Bubble Up In the game or that coaches start you hear them talk talking about it more and more frequently and this year has definitely been the year of like wallor like everybody’s into wallor um and you know and then everybody references to the just statistic that you know 80% of the game is played within six feet of the wall and some somehow for whatever reason we missed this maybe earlier in the game or it just wasn’t as applicable but you know when you talk about whether it was in your Player Development role you know you work your way up to eventually being um the general manager of the Arizona Coyotes you know when you’re out there evaluating talent you know at a level where it goes without saying the margins are so thin like the difference between making and not making it uh is is is finite but what would be some other examples of skill sets or details that you would say man like if a player had to spent more time in this area or if you could recommend a coaches that to say that hey like here’s maybe something you you might be overlooking but man you’re going to do your players a real service if you can help build this into their game yeah for for me I I truly believe it’s it’s it’s goal scoring um and and yeah you I I don’t I mean to be honest with you like you you you mentioned you know our club and that not um you know we weren’t overly gifted um skill set wise but as a whole we were a good team and um I I truly believe that the success we had is one the Buy in from all the players but we recognized really early on that we weren’t going to beat Team 7 six um and that we might not be as skilled as everybody else so what we tried to do is create volume so we were a volume team so what we wanted to do is we wanted to get you know we wanted to out chance you two to one that gave us a chance to win so how do you do that well then you have to put yourself in positions to be goal scorers so a lot of the stuff that we do is putting players in un uncomfortable areas to shoot pucks and then get after it in regards to um scramble plays so a lot of stuff that we do are um you know if we use a shooter tutor um so what I’ll do is um you have to hurry up to get into you know an example like an F3 spot right like want to be the goal scorer so there’s going to be a there’s going to be a wall battle in the corner um and then we’re going to spin out and then um you know I we’re going to work with the wall work and then he’s got a spot where the F3 is but I’m not sending the F3 until late into the into a drill so that he’s got to hurry up and get there he’s not going to have a lot of time and then we’re going to load and shoot and then we’re going to create a scramble in front of the net and you have to create elevation you’re going to have to create a left to right movement you’re going to have to find a way for Second Chances so I find that that’s the biggest key for us is um and it’s game likee situation we might have a Dem man you know with you know token pressure in front of the net so a lot of the stuff that we do is um you don’t have a lot of time in the game a lot of the stuff that we do is rushed so I try to re replicate that and put players into positions where they’re going to have to make Rush decisions now you know we do a lot of stuff you know throughout the week that you know work on their skill sets when there’s no rushing yeah and they have a little bit more time but a lot of the stuff that we do is not giving you a lot of time to do it making you have to rush and then react very quickly again and make another play after that so it’s it’s it’s trying to get things done twice in the same rep um so it’s not just find a spot shoot it and finish it no there’s going to be you know you probably won’t score from there but if you can find that Puck and you’re really good right outside the blue paint and you can find a way to get a rebound in when the goalie is down or there’s chaos or the Dem man’s looking for the puck and he’s not worried about grabbing your stick then that’s where we can kind of maybe take advantage of it and for you as a player if you can get three four five goals in the year just doing that you just went from you know a 15 goal scor to a 20 that’s massive for you know for the next level for sure so if if I’m I’m G to repeat back what I think you just said is that you know you know a um create a sense of urgency um but B I think so many times in practice there’s a shot on that and then there’s a lot of token effort not a lot of real game like effort but to create an environment where those the drill doesn’t end on the shot um The Players keep competing as they wouldn’t a game for the puck and you also talk about trying to move it east west and those and again I think that’s probably part of the game those those loose Puck battles where you know a lot of the feedback from a coach might just be to you know harder dig you know there’s not a lot of strategy involved but is that something where there’s you know maybe coaches can leaning a little bit more and sort of find some strategy or provide some direction to again to create a sense of witness So Co so a player might say gosh you know what Tommy might see he might just slide it to the back door I’m gonna go stand there yeah without a doubt absolutely right like know the East West stuff is is crucial um you know to try try to teach that and I don’t think it’s it’s natural for the for kids to make those plays the highend high-end kids can see it you know I think that comes naturally but I think if there is some coachability to it in regards to you know creating those scenarios Under Pressure to be able to make that puck go east west right and and the thing is is it’s a chaotic it’s it for us it’s a chaotic situation that I’m asking you to kind of calm down for a second right like you’re gonna you’re gonna shoot it it’s chaotic you’re gonna grab it but then you’re going to have to calm calm yourself and make the right play and now is it am I pulling it back two feet to create elevation is the goalie not there and it’s just a quick I got now I’m making a quick decision the Net’s open I’m shooting it in so um you know we try to put put a few different scenarios in regards to uh again recognizing and decision- making you know within within those areas um so that they can they have to rush they have to they know they got to get out of that that F3 spot to get to the net but then they also have to be able to say okay now I have it I I’m not just banging this into the goalie now I have to make another play so now you know how do you go from you’re standing still I rushed you to a spot how do you calm yourself to get the shot now I’m rushing you to the net again and now how do you calm yourself down again to make sure that you’re making a a decision to go back door slide up back door to someone who’s standing there or am I pulling it back two feet to get elevation or is it a rush play you know he’s the goalie’s you know lost his stick and he’s not even looking I’m gonna bang this in the empty net so trying to put these players into different situations where they have to make some decisions and then you know heart rate up heart rate down right quick decisions calm yourself right think about it for a spit second so if you can put them into more scenarios like that when when game time comes then you know you hope you’ve you’ve had enough reps that you you know you can have some success with it um so I want to ask you about another part of the game but start with a story so my first year coaching Junior Hockey in the bchl in quinel um who no longer has a team but again this is back in the 2201 season this is pre- Twitter so if you wanted to watch highlights you had to watch TSN Sports desk and TSN would be on a 30 minute Loop so you’d watch all the highlights and I would say you know if you’re on the road you go back to the hotel probably bring a pizza up to the room I don’t think we did any video back then but um you know you’d watch the highlights as a staff and um so we’re watching the highlights I don’t know where we were but we’re we’re in a hotel room and they play the highlights and they they show a game between Chicago and I forget who you’re playing Colorado that’s right it was Colorado was Patrick W I was in net and um you get clipped under the nose you’re bleeding and as you go to the bench and and people I’m sure as I’m explaining this it’s it’s coming to life there’s a fan by the bench and you’re you’re in the United Center in Chicago is or sorry in Colorado and and they just start banging on the glass and they’re giving it to you I think you kind of give it back a little bit and if I recall correctly later in the game you go on and get two short-handed goals I think on the same PK is that right yeah it is but Patrick W clears the puck hits this guy um splits him open he he’s bleeding and you go and you go out of your way I think you go out of your way to go back and see him and I don’t if his wife is girlfriend she’s got like a towel on his head he’s bleeding and she’s kind of smiling at you um I bet you we stayed up an extra three hours because you could only see it on every 30 minute Loop and we were just like giggling it was so funny I just what do you remember from that night yeah I I remember it all um you know I mean like Alex Tong kind of you know um tried to clear the puck um we were on the power play and he tried to clear it um caught me on the on the bridge of the nose and I was bleeding pretty good and you know um skate know trainer came me out and I was kind of bent over so I wouldn’t get any blood on my jersey and pulling off and then yeah a fan kind of heckled me through the glass and um you know I just stood up and looked at him like buddy I’m bleeding like you mean like give me a break right so and then yeah you’re right and then later on in the game you know Patty Roy fires it around and where he was sitting like the chances of getting hit by a puck oh yeah like right at the corner of the bench yeah yeah like so close to our bench right on the first roll like there’s no way a Puck’s just gonna climb and hit you there yeah sure enough it split him like worse than worse than I and he was bleeding worse than I was and our trainer threw a a towel over but as it was happening I was on the ice and um you know I was peeling off to go back you know back towards our net and it was tonyon that yelled at me and said Sully same guy so then I just but I button hooked it and went right back to him yeah and and you know repeated the words that that he had told me um so I think his girlfriend thought it was pretty funny too so yeah and you’re right um because we ended up going to Vancouver the next day and it blew up like it was like we walked in like Chicago we were first of all we were a terrible team at the time and you know almost out of the playoffs by then no one really cared about us and all of a sudden we get to the rink and there’s this Canadian media first of all is you know for sure is always a lot you know thicker than the rest of the world and and then all of a sudden I’m like what’s going on so like and for so you I had to repeat the story but for them to I I give Colorado’s uh camera and and TV production crew uh props for catching it all on tape like right for it’s crazy for it to happen but for them to see it have it on film and recognize it it’s it’s phenomenal so probably the thing that I’m probably most recognized or remembered for in my whole career is that is that one clip it’s yeah it’s it’s so good um but you know back to the Tactical part I want to go back you get the two short-handed goals we’re seeing in these playoffs um I’m not suggesting that the you know the penalty kill is any more valuable this year than it hasn’t has been in previous years but it just seems like it’s more often than not it’s the difference in games and you see like you know Edmonton it’s really propelled their season um you know Florida’s been a staple of their game they’ve been able to shut down you know coocher off and pastor neack and some big time players and keep them off the board what are the ingredients of being a good penalty killer because you obviously it was an area you really excelled at yeah um I I I think it’s um it’s first of all it’s recognizing what the power play is trying to do right so understanding you know you know what what they’re trying to do what Their triggers are what their you know what their setup is you know um and then you for that’s going to help you kind of stop it um but it’s also going to be able to help you anticipate um when it’s going to be a good time to go right so anytime you score short-handed goals it’s also it’s a little bit of anticipation a little bit of um you know of of cheating in regards to like no I I can leave here um and cheating or anticipating is you know you can cut it both ways so I think that understanding you know um you know if I’m the if I’m if I’m the weak side forward um and you see the pattern developing and you know it’s going over to buard and he’s going to pound it right and understanding where he is on the ice and where he’s probably going to try to shoot it and if he’s on you know if he misses the net and you know and he’s going to miss it on our blocker side and that Puck’s getting hit the wall and I’m and I’m the weak side Winger I can anticipate I’m coming back to try to take away that lane so in case he doesn’t shoot it but if he does I’m getting ready to take off because if he misses the net and that thing hits yellow or hits glass and it bounces it’s getting by their flank and if it gets by their flank I’m off to the races right so you’re anticipating that puck in regards to where it’s going to go and then you got to read in regards to where they where they’re standing on the ice and if you can kind of cheat a little bit in regards to like yeah I can you know and and understanding where you can cheat there’s certain spots on the ice where um you know Prime ex you know we don’t power plays are you know very different than they were when I played um and then especially when I was in Chicago you know we were way more into a box um you know we were in the power plays were more of an overload right so you still had two defenseman you know a half wall guy goal line guy neck guy right so it wasn’t it wasn’t a 131 um so but what you do is like you know a lot of times it was to the D D to D for a shot well a lot of times I would go out token block the shot but I’d Al always allow myself one two three strides past the d man because in case we got it and they fired it I’m already behind the d man right and I know for a fact that you know the odds are the analytics would know today’s day verbage would be analytics the analytics would tell me that he’s not getting that puck back in the next two or three seconds so I’m allow I’m allowing myself those two extra strides and then I’m going to peek back and see where it’s at and if we don’t have it then I’m just going to button hook and come back and I’m gonna be back in position no harm no foul so a lot of times it’s it’s understanding and anticipating where you can kind of cheat on the ice where it’s not going to hurt you for the next couple seconds so I think that that’s you know and a lot of the pkers I I think uh I would give grabner um a lot of credit in regards like that’s that that type of speed on the PK is what you know is if you can get a guy that can skate like that um you know willingness to block shots and has you know the smarts to kill it makes it very very hard keeps the power play on their heels um knowing that a guy he’s just G to come out of a cannon and we’ve got to chase him down um you know we’re going to be a little bit weary about uh what we do in the power play I think it’s interesting to use the word uh cheating I know there’s been you know people point to emont becoming more aggressive you know Florida is aggressive in everything that they do but I guess depending on how you look at it uh cheating and being aggressive are kind of one and the same thing um depending on how you want to spin it um Steve you know so you’ve been a player um I know you’re recovering from a shoulder injury safe to say that those days are well in the rearview now yes um you know but you’ve been a development coach NHL um you’ve been an assistant GM general manager so you you you’ve kind of gone through the player evaluation um as well as the Player Development role um now you’re a coach you know I had a chance last night to go back and watch your speech when you received the bill Masters and trophy I didn’t realize how long you were out for with your back injury like that that’s probably something that ends a lot of careers the fact that you not only came back but then you you played for as long as you did following that um you know all this is to say I don’t get the impression that when you leave the rink um today that you stop thinking about hockey I sense this is a you know a deep passion of yours um what what’s the next chapter of your hockey Journey look like or where what would you like it to look like yeah um you know thank you for all those things um but you’re uh you’re right I I do have you know a true obsession with the game um I I’m and I truly believe I’m I’m a student of the game I I love to um you know with so much accessibility to all the the games now and different platforms that you can use to to download the games and watch the games um you know you can I I love looking for patterns I love looking for you know where the game is is trending towards um just just to be able to watch the game you know with a different eye um so I truly love that aspect of it um and having gone through um I think every every job possible within an organization um I think that this time that I you know when I left the coyotes um it was to coach my son at the u15 level and you know it was a pandemic year and got back into I’m like for sure gonna help my youngest son and I’m G to coach him uh coached him for 15s and 16s um I got the itch I got the itch um to coach I really really enjoy the coaching aspect of it um I love my time as a manager I love my time as Player Development but um what I love about the coaching aspect is you get you get to touch the players every single day you get to impact them you know if it’s in practice or if it’s in a game um you get to impact the day-to-day um of a player’s of a player’s development as a manager you know you’re watching the game from upstairs you know you’re going to impact you know you’re looking at what you need to do tomorrow next week next month or next year five years down the road what is you know what what what does our organization look like but as a coach you’re you’re diving into today it’s yesterday today and tomorrow it’s just those three days um there’s there’s nothing else and um I truly believe that that’s the passion that I have is to kind of um I was lucky enough to have you know obviously some you named a few and I’ve had some unbelievable coaches that were able to pass on some unbelievable knowledge that I was able to retain uh I had some great people help me along my way to have a career that I have and to be able to give back and and and help hopefully you know one two three as or as many kids as I can um I’m I’m I’m really enjoying that that aspect so what is it look like I don’t know but um I don’t I don’t see hockey not being a part of my life here for the next little while uh well said well listen man um we really appreciate you making time to to join us today this has been a lot of fun and sincerely me I know I’m speaking on behalf of all of our listeners thanks so much for just being so canid and sharing um so much of the process that you go through with your players and your and your team and and how you build them up um I there was a ton of great takeaways but um yeah really look forward to watching you and the uh coyotes Junior coot next season awesome thanks for having me on [Music]