Jaguars writer John Shipley explains the Trevor Lawrence conundrum

Matthew Coller is joined by SI’s John Shipley for a way too early preview of Vikings at Jaguars in Week 10. Coller and Shipley also discuss Trevor Lawrence’s massive new contract and what kind of a situation it puts the team in going forward.

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hey everybody welcome to another episode of purple Insider Matthew caller here and yes we are going to give a hardcore preview of a game that will take place on November 10th because why wouldn’t we and joining me to talk about Vikings and jaguars on November 10th which is week 10 of the NFL season is one of my favorite beat reporters in the National Football League John not the John Chipley that you guys know who is from Minnesota the John Chipley who covers the Jaguars Jaguars on si uh one of the one of my favorite guys and and great when we can have an excuse to get together I think well we did this with yanii and gque was the last time probably we talked so great to have you back John how are you man hey I’m doing good man I’m I’m I’m glad to be referenced among the other John Chipley every time I explain to people well my Twitter handle has two underscores I’m like there’s a guy in Minnesota him John Chipley beat me beat me to the punch you know so he I’m H happy to be back d man that trade feels like a million years ago doesn’t it it most certainly does yeah I mean at the time I guess we thought well you know the Vikings are GNA get him in here extend him he’s going to be a big part of the future and then they went oh all those sack numbers not really what we expected from uh Yan kak and he’s still gets out there and gets sacks he’s a free agent now someone will sign him he’ll get six sacks and his PFF grade will be a 32 and that will be Yan and G didn’t exactly work out uh but you have had big news uh in your area recently with Trevor Lawrence so I wanted to start off with with this the conversation about paying quarterbacks the Vikings Paid Kirk Cousins a huge amount of money short-term contract mostly guaranteed it was very hard for them to work around for three years so the Vikings move on from KT cousins they get a cheap quarterback and then when the Jaguars sign Trevor Lawrence to 55 million a year I just gesture at contract and say this is why the Vikings did this thing however upon a little further investigation John it does seem like this will be pretty manageable for a couple years with Trevor Lawrence and it also feels like the discourse is why I say follow your local beat reporter because you’re not GNA get I think the uh best detailed analysis of something like this if you watch Emanuel a or something so talk to me about this about the reaction to Trevor Lawrence’s contract how the team’s going to work around it the whole thing yeah well the funny thing is these discussions really started last offseason you know it wasn’t like they saw his 2023 season where they undoubtedly disappointed you know based on expectations they like okay you know we’ve seen enough they saw his run in 2022 to the playoffs and that was when they more or less said you know okay we’ve seen they literally just could not actually extend him until this offseason per you know NFL contract rules I mean it’s a contract that it does give them a little bit of flexibility you know for at least the next year or so to you know maybe be a bit more aggressive before you have to start and really draft guys and stay away from free agency you know and Sh Buy’s tenure you know he definitely likes to pretend like he’s not a guy who spends a lot of money and that he just resigns all his trft picks but in three of his Four offse Seasons he spent a ton of money so they’re definitely going to have to Pivot now to a team that you know isn’t doing that as much and trying to trap better and retain their own players I mean last year they had a 12 player draft class who I think only one player had a an AV of more than you know one so and it was a right tackle who started every single game everybody else was you know simply not productive so they’re going to need to be a better drafting team because of this contract but it definitely you know once you start getting into last years of it like I think 20129 his capit is more or less like a meme number at this at this point it’s like 75 million or something so so I expect them to you know probably we work at us sometime in the next couple years as he gets closer to those years and there are some void years on top of it the Jaguars have become you know one of those void heavy teams you know along with Philadelphia Eagles and really the last two offse seasons it seems like every contract they have you know there’s like void years on top of it even Gabe Davis got void years so it is it’s definitely a contract that it seems like it’ll give them flexibility moving forward but it was something they had already decided to do and in my mind you know if you have already decided he’s the guy there’s no real point in waiting a year because it gets more expensive and your answer didn’t really change so either you think he’s good enough to pay or you don’t and obviously you know he’s not developed fully you know they see him as somebody who should play better moving forward and they’re betting on his potential a lot like some other teams do when they sign these big contracts you know when we talk about scouting quarterbacks in the draft and everybody’s got their take and everything else one of the things I go back to eventually at some point in total exasperation from the whole process and I will yell we don’t even know if the current quarterbacks are good ask a hundred people if Justin Herbert’s good and you’ll probably get more say yes than no but there will be enough of goes I don’t know he doesn’t want anything and the same thing goes for Trevor Lawrence where I think that the excuses for not having this pton Manning like uh alteration of the Jaguars franchise uh are valid to some extent I mean the urban Meer thing is most certainly real and I’m sure that was quite in experience I remember you telling me that he like didn’t know players names and stuff like that on other teams he called James Robinson James the running back and called Roy Robinson Harris Roy Roberts for an entire year and called Adam Gottis Alex Clancy after a game James the running back is good James oh yeah James the running back yeah yeah I know what position he plays thank yeah I I actually kind of like it it’s sort of catchy but if it’s because he doesn’t know the play players names so anyway you know he kicked the kicker all the different things that happened there so that was legit and then it was totally fair to look at the roster that he had go to the playoffs get a playoff win have a crazy comeback all that stuff and go hey this is it this is the quarterback he’s supposed to be so then last year when everybody placed their bets on Trevor Lawrence greatness and then those bets didn’t really pay out no matter how many times Z Jones caught touchdowns out of the back of the end zone it’s reasonable to still look at it and go I don’t know if this is what it was supposed to be and then also say is this someone that is going to be able to take you over the top when they are more expensive because even if the cap hits are reasonable there’s still a hell of a lot more than JJ McCarthy’s is going to be for example yeah no I think that’s 100% fair I think for the generational tab perhaps that you know lawence received coming out of college you know whether that’s you know fair or not he absolutely you know I think to most people’s opinions hasn’t really hit that standard yet you know just based on onfield production you know what they’ve done overall as a team I think that the Jaguars factor is definitely you know some context here nine and eight over the last two years like seems you know perfectly average for the Jaguars just two the best seasons they had you know in in in the last decades so just I think especially from the top down whether that’s ownership or you know front office they see you know even when maybe it’s not playing their best they’re still mostly competitive I think they see that as a step in itself enough but I do think there are you know plenty of reasons to think even the team thinks you know okay there needs to be more you know there needs to be more this upcoming season they’ve made you know the Investments uh at you know wide receiver you know there absolutely I think needs to be more than what you saw over the last couple you know I’d say month and a half of the last season up until then you know he wasn’t lightly on fire you know he wasn’t in the running for MVP or anything but he was coming off some of his you know best games he had great Showdown with CJ shroud in Houston and week 12 that was I thought one of the more like underrated pure NFL games of the year you know just two quarterbacks going back and forth and then before he got hurt against the Cincinnati Bengals you know he was having one of the better games again you know of his season so obviously over those last six games uh you know not at all what they needed at the quarterback position and he has to carry that along with the rest of the team so I think it’s also fair to criticize it and expect more out of him and when you’re paying a guy like that there has to be more so I think they’re paying him for what he needs to become not necessarily for what he’s always been and I’m certain that that injury probably should not have come back from it as fast as he did and that likely impacted the way that his season ended and I’ve mentioned it a few times but the number of passes that should have been caught that were not caught this has been well chronicled by the data people that he has suffered some of the most drops in the NFL and we’ll get to that with how they’re trying to resolve that issue although I’m not so certain that Gabe Davis is the guy to do that but I guess we’ll see it when it comes to Lawrence I think if I was just picking quarterbacks to start a franchise with even contract considered he would still be pretty high on the list he would not be momes and probably stoud has already gone ahead of him because you’ve got a lot of rookie quarterback contract there but when you contextualize I mean even someone like Tua in Miami his first couple years are just miserable and then they build the team they get the right coach and all all of the sudden you know he he takes off like that I think most quarterbacks are so impacted by what’s around them that when you have someone like Trevor Lawrence the expectation is like hey buddy you’re supposed to just take the team you’re you’re supposed to be momes so if you don’t do it and you just go nine and eight when your team is kind of blle then that’s not just not good enough and yet I watch the talent that He has and think this still should be a top-notch quarterback yet you’re paying him at a time you have to believe in something you haven’t truly seen yet it’s it’s such an interesting place to be and I can’t decide whether it’s a great place to be because if the team gets a little better this could be a Super Bowl Contender because of the quarterback or if it’s a bad place to be because if that step never comes welcome to my life from 2018 to 2023 John I think no 23 yeah 2 I think Kirk’s honestly a perfect example of it even you know Jared Goff another example teams are selling themselves on if they’ve think these guys that they can at least compete with and win with and make you know annual playoff trips with they’re willing to invest in them you know they’re not necessarily I think expecting them to be Patrick Mahomes even though you know like I had somebody tweet at me right after you signed saying can you make it make sense to me that he makes more money than Patrick Mahomes annually and no you know it doesn’t make sense that’s not you know how how the market works so I think you’re seeing teams kind of I think Kirk level quarterbacks and above teams willing to marry to themselves and Trevor Lawrence you know isn’t top five quarterback yet or anything like that but I do think he is in that range where you maybe a little above you know the Kirk level so he falls in that range of contracts they’re going to be a few quarterbacks in these next couple years who you know probably get the same type of deal I mean Tua even can I think be considered one of them it’s a pure hypothetical but I when comparing the two you know if I think about Trevor lawrenson to his offense yeah I that’s probably maybe you know offensive play of the year type numbers you know two is with the Jaguars then I I feel like I’m watching left-handed Gardner menu you know for for the most part so obviously not the quarterback he was touted to be I think but I also think a lot of context has to be added into factors beyond his control you know with the Jaguars how the roster been constructed Etc I mean the number two receiver the last couple years is now receiver four or five in Arizona to you know put some things into you know uh context in terms of the weapons he’s have that’s the thing I’m always trying to figure out how much Credence do we give to hey his coaching wasn’t that good we’re going through this with Sam darnold his coaching wasn’t that good the players around him weren’t that good how much of the stats are that how much are they of this guy has some fundamental flaws and with Kirk Cousins the left guard became the meme here where it was just well if they only had you know will Shields out there at left guard then they would have been great uh but or that you know he would have gotten them to the Super Bowl or if it was only the defense or if it was only if it was only if it was only and if you have to say that for six straight years then it probably was the quarterback wasn’t at a talent level that could take you over the top to get to a Super Bowl so how do you distribute this how do how do you deal with like what what’s what is is there a Fatal flaw here in his game that has caused this can it be worked out can it not be worked out because with cousins the Fatal flaw was athleticism and aggressiveness and you are never going to make him more athletic that’s neither of those things seem to be a Trevor Lawrence issue but is there something in his game that holds him back from being at that next next level that his athleticism his arm Talent all those things would indicate uh when he was coming out of the draft for the record I think it’s a great bit that the Jaguars projected left guard was a Vikings Cast Away left guard and Ezra Cleveland so it’s nice to see that baton has been tossed it will take probably until about week three or four for fans to say Ezra Cleveland and press Taylor are the reasons that the offense isn’t really going I I do think Lawrence has some flaws I’ve carried over I think even since it’s College days you know he’s a lot of times you know I’d say overly relies on his athleticism his arm Talent you know you see the advanced metrics and PFF grades on his deep passing and that’s one part of Sword the other part of it is you know he can be Reckless at times you know whether with decision making whether with ball security inside or outside the pocket uh in outside the pocket you know on scrambles and stuff has been an issue for him and sometimes I think you know trying to do too much you know and I think especially the central awareness has you know been an issue I think back to week 18 when you know he called his own number and tried to get the ball over the top of the end zone against Tennessee Titans on fourth down didn’t get it they didn’t run the call play you know he had just decided to do it but in that situation you know they were about a yard and a half off it wasn’t like the other times they have done it just stuff like that early down interceptions in the Red Zone he still had issues with that year that’s something that’s kind of plagued him you know throughout the last couple years so there are definitely areas of his game that he needs to sharpen up and areas you know why like you said guys like CJ shroud have you know probably already passed them you know if you had to ask me to pick one today to build around it would be shroud because of like you said you know the years of contract as opposed to you know Lawrence just now getting paid there’s an erratic nature to his game that I am at times so wowed like there was that comeback game he had what two years ago like oh my gosh everything the guy throws is Magic and then other times there’s a like skittishness or a SC like I got to scramble I I’m not seeing it something’s not right there and I guess that connects to like is it you know the coaching is it the receivers or is that just part of his game I feel like I still saw that in Clemson but in college you could just do all that stuff and it works yeah he’s got more golden retriever to and people like to admit I feel like people projected him out of college as this like Pro typical Pro style you know quarterback like the next like pton Manning and when really you know he’s more in the build of like those Uber athletic quarterbacks who are maybe raw you know in some areas now he’s a lot more athletic than you know some people I think might even still you know give him credit for you know that’s probably his best trait is still you know his creativity and what he does on the move but it’s also what hurts them you know at a lot of times so I I I think you know turnovers inal awareness specifically are the two things that you know moving into next year they have to see take a step in because like you said if you’re entering several years of maybe it was this maybe it was that you know eventually in the NFL you simply just have bries so how good are the weapons uh I mean Evan Ingram catches eight- yard passes and a lot of them and that that is another thing with with uh Lawrence that’s sort of this conundrum is you’re talking about his erratic nature how he likes to run around and yet a lot of times he’ll be throwing like four yard throws and you go you all right buddy like do I need to shut it down and restart it uh and then he’ll average six yards in attempt and you go I’m not sure what’s happening here but you know okay Ingram he’s a decent player Thomas is a very exciting prospect Christian Kirk uh I think that the contract that everyone went absolutely berserk over for Christian Kirk has been fine for them because receivers are extremely expensive but I still don’t look at this and and maybe this is just being in Minnesota where if you have anything less than Randy Moss Chris Carter and Jake Reed you’re like nah you suck uh but uh I think it’s an okay group but it doesn’t look like wow this is going to take him to the next level unless Brian Thomas is fantastic right away yeah no it definitely is I think like you said probably an okay group you know at at this moment I mean still the best receiver Lawrence ever had in his career is now playing for you know a divisional rival you know even if cin Ridley maybe didn’t meet every single expectation he was still a thousand yard receiver uh coming off not playing for a couple years so I do think that their offense got hurt you know to a degree by losing Ridley uh it bringing in Gabe Davis and you know Brian Thomas as opposed to losing Ridley and Z Jones I think they lost the best receiver they also I think replaced the worst receiver of the four and Z Jones so I think some Middle Ground can probably be found there and I think if you’re looking for any optimism you know in terms of the pieces they have brought in like you said Gabe Davis isn’t anybody who’s going to solve uh your team’s drop issues exactly but if there is any optimism it’s that you know Lawrence’s best style of play compliments both of those guys you know you know big receivers who win downfield but like you said there have been so many times in the Doug Peterson press Taylor offense where they’ve been that Dink and dunk team where you know like you said Evan Ingram or Christian Kirk will catch a six or seven yard pass over and over and over again so that the Jaguars have at different times you know kind of Unleashed Lawrence but at other times you know they’ve played it safe on offense and I think especially when turnovers hit them you know at some point during the season if they ever get into a turnover slump they’ve I think I’ve shown to go towards that direction just dear God get the ball out of his hand you know try to eliminate the chances of a turnover I also don’t think last year they trusted their offensive line very much for a variety of reasons they had I think nine different combinations of starting you know left tackles and left guards during the season so they turn to a quick passing game because of that a lot but if there is any hope I I think for this offense it’s one that you know maybe Thomas and Davis fit him more than guys like Z Jones and perhaps even you know fitwise than Cal Ridley even if he’s clearly the best of the four and then two I think that there’s some optimism that they can produce with Lawrence that’s that most of the receivers he’s played with have had their career years under him you know uh Kirk and Ingram obviously Z Jones Calin Ridley had a 1,000 yard season with him Jamal Agnon looked like a semi capable NFL receiver last couple years even Ron Treadwell got like 400 yards and I don’t think has played a game since then you know so if there’s one thing Lawrence has been able to do it’s boost the production of his receivers even if it hasn’t you know seen his production take big leaps teams keep signing laquan Treadwell it it just continues to happen if you’re a first round pick you got a job for Life someone will always bring you in and be like hey you know what if there’s uh more there then whatever and there there usually isn’t uh when it comes to Doug Peterson I want to ask you a question that a beat reporter would hate which is how many coaches would you take before Doug Peterson because you know I think his I’ll give you a second to think about it his reputation is naturally that uh you know he won the Super Bowl and was really great in that season that they won the Super Bowl with Nick fos he gets credit for that forever but the league changes quick Frank Reich at one point looked like a great coach then suddenly didn’t look like a great coach um where does Peterson stand in all that would would you say that he is still ahead of the game or maybe needs to update some things or where how you feel I do think last year absolutely showed that they do need to update some things it seemed like they felt like they could run back the exact same cast exact same offense as it did the previous year no need to make major tweaks to it because it just worked a year ago and then you fast forward you know to 2023 and that same offense they ran you know just in terms of pure efficieny numbers took a major step back pretty much every offensive metric so I I I do think that he’s a guy who him and you know press Taylor who have kind of been tied at the hip since you know the Philadelphia days and it looks like we’ll continue to be tied to the hip until the end of days on this Earth for for whatever reason PR press Taylor you know is his guy and we follow him everywhere and it’s those two construct the offense it does seem like coming off last year they need to update some things I’d say like outside of the top 10 he’s not in that Elite tier but I I’d say you know probably somewhere in that you know 13 14 range like obviously you’re taking the Mike tomlins the John Harbaugh even maybe you know potentially Jim Harbaugh the Andy Reids over him but I I do think that he has shown that he can at least raise the floor of a team which again for the Jaguars the bar has not been high for some time and so far he has cleared that very low bar but I do think now expectations are starting to rise more and more like okay be better than the 9 and8 record but I do think there are a lot worse coaches you can probably have than him yeah and we’re talking about some of this stuff as if it was a disaster and they went through a lot and still came out with a winning record last year so it’s not like it was a complete mess but I think that with the Jaguars the big question is can you go from there to anywhere else a friend of mine in the league likes to say it’s very easy to go from two wins to eight wins it’s not that easy to go from eight wins to 12 wins so to go from that middle and we saw it here to being a team that’s legitimately competing for the Super Bowl and I I’ve wondered if Doug Peterson still has that in him or if every time a team has a bunch of injuries or the receivers aren’t good or something we just go idiot coach am I right and uh I try to weigh how much belongs in each category but I think that raising the floor is a good way to describe Doug Peterson where you have a professional coach like before and so you’re guaranteed I think what you’re guaranteed is if the players are good and they stay healthy you’re going to be there at the end of the day uh and you can’t control some of the other stuff like who gets hurt yeah no I I think that’s definitely a good way to put it you know there are definitely you know areas of his tenure the last two years that I think both can be admired and both can be you know kind of questioned I mean anytime you load a divisional lead after starting 8 and three you know you have to bear you know some blame in that no matter how injured the players might have been I mean they they played Joe Flo and Jake Browning you know in that stretch you know lost both those games I think the big thing with the Jaguars last year is they were expected to take that step you know after going nine and eight the year before and they were expected to hang with the top teams they played but you look at the top teams they played last year you know they lost to the Chiefs they lost to the Ravens they lost the 49ers didn’t even compete really with the 49ers the Chiefs game was not not nearly as close as the score may have indicated I think a lot of games last year showed that the Jaguars were still far away now they’ve made a lot of I’d say veteran additions this year uh they’ve gotten rid of uh some guys maybe from past holdovers from from past 10 years there’s been more rosts or overhaul this year and I think maybe people even expected so maybe they hope that culture kind of shifts where they actually feel like they’re one of the NFL stop teams because it definitely felt like a confidence issue at the you know second half of last year as things started taking the skid you know you could see each game that they were losing a little bit more and a little bit more confidence to the point where the only team they could compete with was the Carolina Panthers which I mean they were able to beat them with CJ Beth so that shows you the state that the Panthers were at last year yeah that’s true it it was uh I mean when they started the season the way they did I think everyone went this is what we expected like that’s it’s kind of just the natural progression you tank you have kind of a middle season like Detroit did and then Contender and then you just then the Easy Button happen and then you come up short in the playoffs and everyone hates you and talks about how much you let them down like this is football and just we go round and round forever and for them not to take that step uh that puts you a little bit in in limbo I think and especially with the division so here’s a question I like to ask guests of the NFC north of if you were looking out a year to 2025 say what do you think the order of the division would be because what you have is high draft pick quarterbacks teams that have rebuilt and now look like potential behemoths of course in Houston but even Indianapolis if Anthony Richardson is something they could win eight games with Gardner mchu last year like they could take a big step forward and then Tennessee I don’t know there’s just Vibes in Tennessee at the moment still if Will Levis is a thing I don’t think he will be but if he is then all the sudden you have all these quarterbacks in the division which team is the best positioned over the next few years do you think I mean that’s a great question I think right now you got to think Houston is the best position just because they have so many of their Stars you know Jaguars have say Trevor Lawrence and Josh Allen Texans have CJ shroud and Will Anderson two really good Duos the Texans are on rookie contracts well the Jaguars just handed out the two biggest contracts in franchise history you know to their pair so the Texans probably have a lot more flexibility I I I think the Colts are a fascinating you know answer potentially for number two obviously a lot of it relies on if Anthony Richardson hits or not I thought you know he was solid last year when he played the obvious question is how can he avoid injuries especially with his play style and he played the Jaguars in his NFL debut and they were several times he took you know some of the harder hits I’ve seen in NFL quarterback taking a game like two or three different hits and he was doing that off the rip so it’s you know see maybe you know if he can respond to that and change up his play style I think that he can potentially lift them to be that playoff type of contending team so see them in the Jaguar it’s kind of interchangeable as two and three maybe put the Jaguars in front of them because you know the quarterback while not Elite has at least shown you that he can get you to playoff capability and I I’m with you on the Titans I think will Lis you know definitely Clash some things last year like I think he’s better than say like a Desmond Ritter but I’m also if I’m a coach or a front office executive I’m not hitching my wagon to will L he does far too many will L like things to make me uh feel as confident in that as the Titans seem to be but like you said Titans seem like they’re yeah they’re just that right now this entire season for them feels like they’re trying to figure out if one dude can singularly play and everything else that happens around them is you know great yeah I will be interested in it because the Vikings had an opportunity to draft will Levis and uh I know for certain well not because just because they didn’t pick him but they that was not their guy they looked at him and said n we don’t view him as our franchise quarterback so the fact that Titans said maybe we do or maybe we just pick every guy that drops to see what happens and we’ll be right one of these times uh but that yeah that franchise doesn’t seem like their roster is anywhere close and their coach has to prove himself as well but everybody else it is kind of a a three-person Race So I want to ask you about one other thing and then I got a fun thing for you um on the defensive side and I refuse to be the show that’s like let’s talk about the offense let’s talk about the defense and then you just what one of the worst podcast or interview questions is just like so what are you seeing on the defensive side there John and you’re like you did you think about this for two seconds before you had me on uh so I’m gonna ask a very specific question did you just attract top draft picks that people like to argue about because Trayvon Walker it seems now now I’m seeing the debates is he actually good is he not good well we got some sacks last year oh but the PFF thing so like good not good should the Vikings be scared I mean I I think the Jaguars definitely have pieces and I think when you look at the defensive staff they brought in you know you can look at it as a potential upgrade over the last Staffing scheme they had just in terms of Ryan neelson being more of a established defensive coordinator than Mike calwell was Walker I think wasn’t as good as 10 sacks would say you know his I think pass rusher win win rate was I want to say in the 50s of qualifying Edge rusher something along those lines he wasn’t like Josh Allen who was consistently not just getting sacks but also getting pressures so I I think shayvon is probably better than the public consensus which is you people kind of label that pick immediately as oh wow we wouldn’t have done that so it’s probably a little bit better than people thought of that but I mean you still debate today you know him and Aiden Hutchinson Aiden Hudson despite some of his own flaws you know not as good in the run as Walker maybe he’s still significantly better pass rusher by pretty much every pass rush metric so I definitely think still the wrong pick but awful player no Elite player I I I don’t think so either you know not as good as the sacks he showed last year but I mean the fact that he showed any life last year I do think is at least a positive because he he definitely looked rough at points as a rookie all right something that we talk about all the time every single person who covers an NFL team is guys taking the next step and so you get from the like hey if he takes that next step and this is like the theme of the podcast can the guy take the next step there are examples of year three past rushers ran Gary is maybe one of those who were thought to be raw freakish athletes that finally hit their stride I forget I guess uh with denil Hunter maybe it was probably a little faster than that maybe a year two but it wasn’t until year four that he was a double digit sack guy really consistently because even in 2017 he had like eight and a half and then he made that full progress and there might be a comparison there because if denil Hunter was coming out in the draft now they’d take him in the top 10 for sure considering what he is as an athlete how do you feel about him taking that next step because I think that’s a swing to the entire defense if he gets 10 sacks but is an allaround pressure machine to go along with Josh Allen then you’re talking about something that’s very dangerous there yeah no danil hunter that name s a shiver of my spine I can’t tell you how many different stories I write about the Neil Hunter rumors and the Jacksonville Jaguars I it it it was the sweetest irony that he ended up signing with complete division rival on the Jaguar seemingly would never even in the race to sign him I I I mean I think there are maybe signs that maybe Walker can be that type of player my comp for him coming out was ran Gary because ran Gary even played inside at times for Michigan you know he was seeing as kind of a tweener coming out just like Walker was who Walker didn’t really play Edge truly until he got the Jacksonville you know he went from playing essentially a five technique def SL defensive tackle role to coming into NFL and learning F4 outside linebacker for the first time in his life so you definitely saw learning adjustment to that I I think there are some traits from him that you can see you know you all the traits that obviously made Trent balky salvate for him at number one overall the lengthy explosion it’s there uh I I would say one thing the Jaguars maybe haven’t done is move him around as much as people initially thought they would you know especially he was an interior player coming out he was talked about as a mismatch you can use throughout the formations and uh I think he played maybe 30 snaps inside over the last two years so they’ve already talked about that kind of changing under Ryan neelson Ryan nielson’s obviously a defensive line focused guy uh that’s how he you know made his bread and butter you know he was the guy at NC State when they put out four different defensive linemen in one draft so I think he’s going to be more or less his pet project because they need him to take that step forward and maybe if they utilize him differently maybe you do see him take that step but he’s also somebody who you know while you’ve seen it happen before I’m still not willing to bet on him passing like say a guy like Aiden Hudson this year I just with him I think you just have to wait and see it because while he had a great into the season last year in terms of the sacks his pressure rate still never really hit that consistent rate he never really has in his career so I think until that happens I’m still going to be you know a little bit Wai and see on him yeah I think that’s fair and with someone like Trayvon Walker he didn’t draft himself there and what he needed to get from point A to point B is not what you normally expect from that draft slot you expect be miles Garrett and miles Garrett today and that is just probably not who he’s going to be uh that decision may end up haunting them a bit with aen Hutchinson being the player he is but that always ends up resting on the shoulders of the player oh you should have drafted somebody else whatever the uh the Sam buoy instead of Michael Jordan type of thing or whatever you know that’s just it’s gonna rest over him and I think that’s that’s difficult for a player when they know everyone’s saying hey they should have drafted somebody else um any player who says they don’t see that stuff is is not telling you the truth yeah no absolutely and I I would have been fascinated to see where Walker would have got drafted if the Jags had taken Hudson because I I do think maybe the narrative had shifted too far on him when he was drafted people were making it sound like oh a late first- round pick is going number one overall when in reality it seems like he would have gone fairly early I’m interested to see maybe if he even would have gone say number two to Detroit but it does seem like narratives have really kind of taken the shape of his first two years yeah totally I think he but I remember looking at him seeing per you know maybe top 10 top 12 something like that but to have someone jump all the way to one it’s so notable it’s such a recognizable pick um so that’s kind of you know something he has to deal with Beyond just trying to become a good player what Vikings questions do you have for me what do you want to know who who’s starting week one quarterback oh Sam darnold Sam darn think who’s starting week 10 that’s a harder question yeah that is a much harder question because week 10 against the Jaguars we will know how they dealt with the start of their season and if you have looked at the Vikings schedule as we were both trying to find it on the internet uh before the show it’s not easy you got the Texans there you got the Packers there you know there’s a buy after London and then they play Detroit there’s a chance that if Sam darnold doesn’t play well it looks pretty nasty by those first few weeks uh because this is not a complete team it’s not a Super Bowl team that could just drag bad quarterback play to a bunch of wins they’re going to need Sam darnold to be very good right out of the gate or they’re going to get behind in the season which could result in JJ McCarthy I’ve looked at coming out of the buy against Detroit as a good time potentially for McCarthy if they’re like a two- win team or something but then we’re also trying to weigh this you shouldn’t just play McCarthy because darnold’s not good yeah you should play McCarthy when he’s ready to play instead week 10 could very well be Sam darnold there’s also a universe and maybe you’ve heard this one before with Blake Bortles or whatever there but it is plausible that if you give a very talented top draft pick Justin Jefferson Jordan Addison these tackles this coaching staff there’s more there than there’s ever been there before and with Brian flores’s defense they could win some games so if they’re like a 500 team when they’re traveling down to Jacksonville and I’ve been there for three days already playing golf Which is my plan by the way then uh I think it could be Sam darnold still I I really think they want to take this super slow with JJ McCarthy yeah and I I think you know if you ask the Jaguars how they handled Blake bordal they probably regret playing him you know as early as they did I remember it it was such good gaslighting they they they said they picked him and they would take him slow you know he would develop behind Chad Henny of all quarterbacks to develop behind and that lasted about two and a half games until he got inserted into a game where they were up by 30 down by 30 points and they never you know obviously look back okay my next question would be what was your take on the draft night trade at Dall uh Minnesota my apologies ended up moving up for Dallas Turner that the Jaguars you one of the most unlikely friendships I think in the NFL Tren balky and quy actually go way back you know to early San Francisco days uh it seemed like you know Trent always willing to do business with quy and he he had high compliments you know of him after the first night of the draft just for him and you know the kind of front office you know executive that he is what was your take on the trade I I think the Jaguars obviously you know they claim they were going to take Brian Thomas at 17 as every team does after they trade down we’ll never know but they obviously I think see it as a positive because they operate on next year’s time A lot of times they’re not a front office that feels very much pressure so they’re obviously always looking toward you know next year if they can what was your take on it so my thing is that I am a big fan as you know of analytics and data and uh charts and all those things but I think that everything with those types of numbers requires context um a player like Dallas Turner who is projected as a top 10 pick but Falls because there’s six quarterbacks so like he didn’t fall that far with actual position players but gets pushed down to his draft slot because of six quarterbacks do we adjust the draft charts for that or not because quarterbacks have so much more value they break the chart right so there is that also the fit with Brian Flores if I was to go into Madden and try to build a player 6 foot3 240 with a 44 and a 40inch vertical and played for Sabin and lined up in different places and Sack the pesus out of quarterbacks like crazy in college had the production the combine that like every single box is checked and the other thing is too that if you add one more pass rusher to this thing with Jonathan grenard who’s only I think 26 27 he could be here for years you create this pass rush Duo and then the foundation is there to build the rest of the parts through free agency but you know what you can’t get in free agency hey how many how many articles did you see last year where people like 10 teams who should sign Josh Allen and the answer was nobody’s freaking signing Josh Allen he’s staying there and that’s what mostly happen you know why because they’re hard to get and they’re super good and your value difference between a rookie contract and veteran contract with Edge rusher is darn near what it is for a quarterback at this point when you’re talking about an elite Edge rusher so that Surplus value matters so I looked at it as you really have to peel back the layers of this rather than just saying well they gave up a lot like well they did give up a lot but if it works you have 30 million in Surplus value for a guy who is a Flawless fit for your defensive coordinators so I kind of look at it similar to the Texans where sometimes like for Will Anderson you just gotta go for it and if it fails it fails but if it succeeds it’s gonna be really good that’s how I looked at and not many people I think a lot of people who initially disliked the Will Anderson trade would probably tell you they still disliked it but I mean if you’re looking at the Texans trajectory right now I mean do you care at all about you know th those picks I mean he’s obviously a star player I what one of the most amazing bits of my time covering of jaguars is seeing Trent py slowly become like semianalytically pilled he said at one of his his press conferences before the draft he’s like the analytics will tell you like to never trade up and you know it just seems like you know he’s somebody who in the Moonlight stages of his career has now you know kind of seen the light on it and he’s trying to make his unlikely relationship with it work out yeah that’s interesting and I I mean I really think that that was a trade that just worked out for everybody it’s like the Jaguars need more pieces and more picks and the Vikings badly need that game-changing edge rusher that they haven’t well they had in denal Hunter but they haven’t had a Duo since Everson Griffin was here and really at his best in in 2017 and with Flores the thing is too if you have a player who can move around who’s versatile could drop back of coverage Flores compared him to Dante hi Tower and you’re like if that’s any version of what the guy becomes that’s going to be a huge impact player for them so you know it’s one of those things where we will absolutely judge it on the result um rather than I think that the the people who say it wasn’t good process aren’t looking at maybe the bigger picture of where this defense is so anyway before I let you go John uh here’s what I want to do I want to give you a former Jaguars quarterback and I want you to tell me where you think that quarterback ranks all time in passing yards in franchise history because this list of quarterbacks is hilarious it is one of the funniest lists it’s not as funny as the Jets but it’s pretty funny that’s bad so it’s it’s quite bad so I was talking about like the Jags quarterback his in the context of the Trevor lawren steel and somebody replied to me like well imagine being the Bears and I was like Jake Cutler would probably be in not running for best Jacks quarterback ever and Rex gersman as bad as he was is probably in the top five it’s it’s a pretty good list it’s it’s it’s quite a bit right uh Mark Bernell obviously the grand champ of all Jacksonville Jaguars quarterbacking where do you think Quinn Gray ranks all time in Jaguars passing history just off yards Quinn Gray ninth what you nailed it that that’s right a t yes because I laughed out loud when I was looking at this before the show top 10 Jaguars quarterback ever Quinn Gray with 1,252 yards 12 touchdowns five picks not terrible for Quinn Gray good for you pal it’s about oh say go ahead I want to say it’s Mark Brunell then is it Blake Bortles or Byron left number two no David Gard no it’s David Gard number two Blake it’s B it’s Bortles at two okay Bortles at two Gard at three yes Lawrence at four yes left at five yep you said Gray’s at nine uh where’s is Rob Johnson in the top 10 Rob Johnson is 20th with two two games and one start but that start you know this that start result in the Buffalo Bills trading a first round pick for him and then the owner becoming so obsessed with him that they bench Doug fluty for a playoff game because Doug because Rob Johnson had had a good week 17 uh so a great position in history I was going to get to Rob Johnson also another former Bill quarterback Trent Edwards yeah was a Jaguar man where’s he rank uh dang that’s a good question let’s go 12th ahead of Josh maau and somewhere after Nick fos okay you remembered way more Trent Edwards than there actually was he started one game and threw for 280 yards and three picks and he’s 21st how about this though how about this the Vikings played against was it Jake Luton who started that game or was it no Mike Glennon it was Mike Glennon so where does uh and Mike Glennon tried to scramble and Jordan braford who was a viking player ripped him as he was trying to run and it looked like a giraffe so uh where does Mike Glennon rank in his 0 and five starts that was quietly a wild game honestly it actually was very entertaining it was they they had a couple games like that when they had like Jake like they went down to the wire with Green Bay at Lambo like Jake luden at quarterback or something all the different scenarios where they could have lost out on Trevor Lawrence because of Jake luden gardam muu and Mike Lennon God that that that also feels like a ago I I’d say Glennon all right so Edwards is like 20 20 and Glennon started five games glennon’s probably let’s go 14 top 10 Jaguars passer in history number 10 Mike Glennon that’s insane what a time uh I’ll give you two more Cody Kessler who uh when the Jaguars had joint practices with the Vikings in I think 2018 I think it was 18 18 or 19 uh I remember watching Cody Kessler throw and going this this guy’s he’s like on the team and uh that’s my break and he was much better than Blake Bortles and that was my takeaway in that practice I was like is this a it’s like a camp body or no he’s on the team he could actually play okay okay God I want to say he started did he start what three games four games four games okay it’s kind of a cheat to tell you how many games they started but yeah I’ll go 11 he is 14th just behind Jaguars Legend Nick folos ah there we go yeah okay last one last one uh do I go I’ll go with uh I believe this is a former Viking did Jay feedler play here he did right yeah he played here okay former Viking Jay feedler 28th that’s a good guess but no he threw for 656 yards 16 on the list ahead of CJ bethard ahead of Luke Macau Jake Luton and another Viking Todd Balman who had a quick run there in Jacksonville what a magical magical list that makes me realize I said Josh Macau earlier it was definitely Luke mcau Luke Macau Ben Baldwin his Alec Baldwin yeah Josh Macau is here and he is not Ben David Baldwin my bad yeah no AB F slip yeah no I I the Jaguars like complete like error of quarterbacks from like post Gerard up until Trevor Lawrence it’s just the complete it’s up there with you know the Browns I think of recent times as the most recent you know funniest list of quarterbacks because the the the road to Lawrence and it was just absolutely impeccable in terms of the different swings that took on quarterbacks Gabbert I’ll never you know forget doing a story on the night they drafted him jack do Rio had no idea that they were drafting him was getting a plate of food yeah from catering and saw on the TV Jaguars that traded up to draft blank gber and that obviously set up a great great relationship oh man that’s great yeah I believe he started this 2016 game against the Vikings and um didn’t go so good did not go so good so anyway well the Crossovers are always funny and great to get together with you uh Jacksonville version John Shipley it it needs like parentheses not Minnesota John Chipley that everybody knows so uh great stuff man and uh look there’s a game in that about four four months four and a half we’ll do it again before then it’ll be fresh we’ll have the same conversation only we’ll know who’s starting so no I really I really do appreciate people should follow you on Twitter at whatever version of John Shipley looks like it’s a jaguars reporter and uh you’re you’re a great file I really enjoy your work and uh hopefully we’ll we’ll do it again soon man hey appreciate you having me on my friend