Rugby’s Greatest Unions: Guscott & Carling

“Rugby’s Greatest Unions” returns with England’s formidable centre pairing of Jeremy Guscott and Will Carling. Starting 44 times together, between 1989 and 1996, they would win 3 Five Nations Grand Slams.

0:01 – Show Intro
0:51 – Show Starts
1:31 – Will & Jeremy join us
3:37 – Swapping Numbers
8:37 – First-ever meeting in 1988
12:14 – Relationship with forwards
15:10 – Captain Will
30:15 – Best Rugby
35:22 – ‘We were never mates’
42:23 – Mr Blobby & Gladiators
49:02 – Working & Playing
50:27 – Best Centre Partnership played against?
58:16 – A different era
1:02:06 – Reunion

Season 4 of The Good, The Bad & The Rugby is sponsored by Continental Tyres.

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in English rugby history I don’t think anyone stands above the two of you as a as a Duo there’s certain players who I think have an awareness of space just have a radar that right and he had it will wasn’t in my life off off the Rugby field but there is a massive huge amount of respect for what what will could do on the field and what we did together you’re you’re asked to be Captain you go great if I look back you know you’re 22 and it would have been nice to have three or four years just playing and actually being able to could said no we live life to create memories hopefully if you’ve been fortunate and you’ve been lucky and to look back on them and they never get tiring yeah very special oh yeah well they were inspiration to me actually [ __ ] off something’s never changed hello everybody a very warm welcome to the latest episode of Rugby’s greatest unions this is The Good The Bad and The rugby in partnership with our very good friends at Continental Tires and Rugby’s greatest unions is all about reuniting the best playing Partnerships that our game has ever seen and I cannot think of a Duo that stands above the two we have on today in English rugby history to you to Tindle Greenwood but successful one that wasn’t very long didn’t last very long you were successful but you just didn’t last very long and away we go stationer don’t don’t talk toar about all right welcome will Carling and Jeremy gusot how are you first of all very good oh you well for now good that’s what he always said very good to anybody would listen actually uh no you look you look good I have to say don’t do don’t don’t even oh go on let him go on we keep on catching up you know every sort of decade and uh I’m still amazed at your hair is I mean I tried I’ve did for men I’m not going to tug it it definitely is I did I did until my ex-wife went you’re dying your hair aren’t you I couldn’t I couldn’t die after that but you you genuinely that is natural that is natural you got to you welcome to the sorry yeah yeah yeah sorry that’s spot the guy actually success now did some TV and the one got shunned away the background um no it is I’ve never there is some in there I know if I grow this it’s it’s great um there’s gray but yeah it’s I know where you’re looking and we’re not even going there um so can I just say relative to the one on the end both of you are doing extremely well which I think probably says more about the modern game than than what it was like back in the at least his nose is straight eventually you did a great job of bending by the way well most of my inside censers have got you know needs reshaping remodeling but look it will no it was contact was very overrated yeah I mean like tins used to love that sort of stuff but you know I think in later years he’s worked out he shouldn’t have done most of that you know that’s what you got forwards for I know but it got me where I’m I’m happy where me there it is very very nice to have the two of you together and I’m being serious when I think in English rugby history I don’t think anyone stands above the two of you as a as a Duo and we’ve got tros obviously in the game hillback Del Etc but but gusk and Carling actually was it gusk and Carling or Carling and guset 1213 yeah gusk car car he was are you happy with that yeah yeah yeah cuz he was obviously meant to play 13 but he so why did you why did you swap numbers you want to say or do you want me you you can say he was superstitious were you I don’t want to wear they didn’t have a 13 bath we never wore 13 and I’m just trying to work out if it was actually when we played at Twickenham whether I was labeled as 13 and I said look there’s no way I’m going out onto the pitch unless I’m in 12 or maybe they came to the sad thing about this podcast is that so long ago we were both saying I can’t remember when what was what was that so I I do remember something you said I can’t wear 13 and I’m like okay I I’ll wear you know I’ll wear it CU I think the first few games before Geraldine came along um I wore 12 um and then yeah you just wouldn’t I just decided it was my shirt right uh and regardless were you Captain by this point yeah yeah but as you can tell idea as go theide World they think that that actually meant anything quickly realized Team Dynamics wise that a grumpy Jerry is [ __ ] nightmares it’s EAS grumpy Jerry is that fair you know I never noticed myself um I’m not yeah I’m not referred to as grumpy Jerry too much face to face maybe maybe that’s the Mumble behind the scenes or was the Mumble behind the scenes and that would be fair or unfair I I’ve never really taken a good hard long look at myself time move I do I do remember I remember one training session at lambridge oh yeah I would be grandp at training I used to say sometimes we be training with mixed ability skill levels of rugby but we’re supposed to be all Internationals yet we’re passing in front we’re passing behind we’re passing low we’re passing high that just wasn’t acceptable I remember C Woodward saying to us one time that when he was coaching at bath could you put sacks over your head uh because it’s not spontaneous enough I want you to react to a defensive alignment and I said CLI why can’t we either just close our eyes or turn the other way no you might cheat you might cheat and I want you and then it was hassing sacks which you could look through anyway but this was all in front of the A4 on the landbridge and I thought there’s no way I’m putting a sack over my head in bath everybody can see us do it and it wasn’t normal anyway so we decided against that c was persuaded not to do that right he he had a way right I do remember with that jumping head I remember um I wouldn’t say grumpy is not a word but he could be challenging spiky yeah he was a non-conformist and Les kusworth became coach of England and the first training session I just remember was at Twickenham and uh we were practicing sort of lying out off anyway and Les went right what I want you to do Rob Rob um Miss will out which is always useful because someone get and he goes Jerry you you take it in and then we what we’ll do is we go quickly off this at which point there was a sorry and there went so uh miss you miss you well Jerry you take it in and he goes whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa this is true right he goes well I don’t take it in and Les went well you you could he goes no no no no he goes Les how many caps do you get oh and Le sort of went 12 and I’m watching this thinking this is Les’s first session I’m going don’t fall for this Les don’t fall and he goes 45 um I don’t take it in so I think you need to rethink this and and I’m like thinking Les you’re going to say to him you will can take it and he goes okay right okay so we’ll try something else and I’m like oh my God and he’s just chuckling away to himself it was a bit of banter back and that sounds really bad now but I it would it would it imagine doing that now no it was challenging but also it’s kind of like you know if you’re going to stick me here you I’m not Mike Tindle I’m not going to crash it up and you know that should be a job for will or a Winger or I mean that’s not my fa take bit of space oneon-one two on one let me go so it was just a a matter of explaining to cuzzy that that’s not me that I’m not buil for that the gentle sensitive nature way that he did it yeah what’s quite apparent is it feels like we’re very quickly back into the playground which is exactly as it should be between the two of you having been through one of the greatest Partnerships in English Sport full stop there’s been a lot that’s for both of you along that Journey when you see each other how often do you see each other now how often do you catch up God and is that intentional or is it in passing no but I I don’t know about it’s just like sort of just you move on we we were in France for the SE semi-final World Cup um I was a good F Rob was there Rob Andrew and yeah do you remember do you remember the first ever meeting because I because obviously your backgrounds are very different so when was the first meeting together did you you wouldn’t did you play England School balls and stuff you wouldn’t have been that would you exactly so that’s what I mean would cross like you know I cross pass with h at school and you know loads of the players Johnny and all that through age group stuff whereas you guys wouldn’t have had that and there’s obviously not as many many games back in the day so no the captain’s got a better memory than me you have because I thought it’ be yeah but so we said and also there was the issue that he did actually play Club rugby I I didn’t play much Club rugby so didn’t really come across him there either right I think the first time that I saw it was in Monaco playing s wow so it was the summer of 88 played in the the sevens and and saw Jerry playing for the W school wonders psws and you were like and I do remember just like okay he can he can shift and it was just sort of like um yeah it was uh that and that’s my that’s my first memory um mine mine was I’m not sure if I dreamt this oh de no but remember I’m not I think you might have been captain and it would have been around that were you were you made captain in ’89 or 8 888 I got made captain at the end of 88 but I do remember going through this whole week I was lucky Andy Robinson was there Gareth CH got a few of my clubmates and I do remember just coming up to you we didn’t really know each other I was like that thanks for looking after my shirt keeping it warm for me but maybe I dreamt that uh but as soon as will was made Captain I did think [ __ ] there’s only one place to go there’s only one place up for grabs and you know I can’t remember there Kevin Sims used to play with h you play with uh there was someone that was it no that was it it’s weird because I sat on selection and so this kid so halers was was a was a mate probably my only mate um on the team and then you and isn’t it weird you sit on selection and it was just like it was one of those without getting heavy one of those major moments where we’re sitting talking about Jerry gusa and you’ve got a guy who’s your mate and a member cookie saying to me so what do you think will and it’s like and it is one of those times where you just think this is not about mat or anything else and I just said to him he’s you got yeah you got to pick him yeah um I because will had been so generous in getting injured and so he gave me my first singland cap in uh Romania and you scored a hatrick you scored a hatrick on on your debut yeah anyway and uh managed to get will was still injured so I I went on a lions tour and then we got back into a yeah was all right yeah um but yeah that’s another that’s a year ahead almost that was 89 going into 89 yeah yeah so and that was that was him so um H must have been like just get back and then you got to remember as well so that not wouldn’t have been through any of your career that the captain actually sat yeah on selection and that was another thing so not only is he Captain you knew will was on selection like he’s not going to drop himself y I tried to numerous occasions yeah um I know which is in fact that finish Jack Jack I never sat on selection with Jack once he came in but with cookie yeah I mean that was just it was just a m you know sitting there 20 on selection was just bizarre I think it’s still weird that they still doing Cricket don’t they Captain still sits on yeah you you were part of I mean two very long illustrious CR but particularly the glory is the sort of 90 early 90s there were so many big characters in that team I mean really big personalities um particularly both of your relationships with with the World ones up front because you I mean some of your greatest mates played up front for England but none of these guys could drink so I had you know they no that is valid right but he says it as though he can that’s the bit against me if he said none of us be fair um we both had different relationships with the for I mean tell the story about the kickoff and big Wade it’s a sad but true story so so he he was right this is me right he was very in the sense he could have fun with them right yeah and I was meant to I was doing the sort of the camp bit and and you s and you couldn’t CU you couldn’t do the sort of stuff that he you know because you meant to be trying to get us to change how we behave but I I do remember which is a sad but true story about one of the only times I ever had an idea we were we were playing Scotland and uh I sort of saying we had this team meeting and I said afterwards and i’ I’d prepared with a flip chart cuz we were high-tech done some pictures coloring in yeah and honestly and so I thought this this is going to go well [ __ ] flip chat started honestly and so I sort of said the backs all sort wandered off and I said guys to the forwards just want to talk you through something could you come to the front and I and I’ll talk you through it and uh should should have read the room when none of them moved that you thought this isn’t going to go too well so little Posh boy was going right you know um come Scotland I’d like us to kick off right instead of left went through my pictures I said so um everyone okay with that back of the room nope PC way dly you know 6’8 whatever it was and I looked at him I went why Wade what’s the problem he goes we kick off left and I’m like look look yeah I know but I want to surprise them right I want us to kick off right and I went through the reasons again I said so we okay with that he went no and I’m like why as I said will we kick off left right and I’m going oh for Christ’s sake he goes little question will ever want to restart yourself I’m like no which is why we will right and I remember literally sort of dro throwing the pen down and storming out at the great line from Dean Richards went hey Will why don’t we run out backwards as well that’ll really surprise him right and the forwards were just in hysterics right but cookie had sat in and it was quite funny so he sort of took me aside and sort of said you know you try and get them to change something just that like not a chance the logic is though think of the logic behind it you get most of them are right-handed you kick off rather than right to left you kick off left to right they can go out that I say dominant side but no we always do it did he get quite a hard time as Captain because you’ve been very self-deprecating over the years about it I mean we got got fting really all right so you you’ve come up with some good question but did did you see as as a player alongside him a c who had had quite a job on his hands to handle those I was coming in so I came in 89 when will was injured um 1990 we went through the we we I mean ‘ 80s in England weren’t great the success was low not not winning and Jeff came in started changing it will did but we the captain was seen as part the management uh whether they liked it or not and you had a room on the own we all shared it was a good crack Captain came in the room it was like that it was a little bit like that it kind of you couldn’t really be part of the will you couldn’t really be part of it it was it was really also because right we didn’t want him INE either No Ex number one right but there was um you know as Jerry said I think someone I’d read somewhere in in the 80s we had about a 20% win right yeah at the end of cookies I think it was up in the 80s right which is a hell of a turnaround for Jeff but so what we were trying to do what I trying to do is we had to change certain bits right and and as you say we had some unbelievable characters and everything else but if we were if we wanted to win we did have to change quite a lot of bits so and and part of that was you know was down to sort of captaincy coaches and all that lot so you couldn’t go and be Jack the Lad yeah and then go and and by the way I want these sort of standards and I want this and I think a lot of it a lot of it as well was put picking the right team and the players coming out at the right time because you I don’t know you can try and set a culture I think that’s quite challenging to be in my view I think Stuart Lancer tried that with England it didn’t quite have long enough the charact the players set the set the tone it it’s I think it’s really difficult as a head coach to kind of do that pick the team pick the best team that all the players are really comfortable with I didn’t ever play once with Will thinking you shouldn’t be in the team you were more plenty good I mean will got a lot of stick for various things deserve most of it but as as a as an inside sensor I think you go a long way to see a better one or or you know he’s right up there with the the who else would be like will Greenwood winning it winning a World Cup and having a successful well semis successful partnership with tins there but we we you know we did we did quite a lot and we won we won a lot of games and managed to get a few trophies along the way do you remember that the early games you played together did it click immediately I mean it it became one of the great Partnerships but did it did it take off from the start I was always sorry just to add on that cuz because now rugby is seen as you know the amount of time that you have together and the way you can actually formulate plans for each individual game you didn’t really have that did you we used to meet on a Wednesday remember Wednesday Wednesday so you got literally three well two and a half days to try and pull everything together whereas you think right now how long they spend on how they line up in Phase play what they do off strip mes everything like that just you just don’t mind on Thursday we had a hangover as well because we’ gone to the pub after [Laughter] I don’t know how you did it I’ve got quite a lot of sympathy with you having to keep a hold of HK and TS in a microcosm yeah yeah no but I clicking with there’s two things that I think two tries for me that uh encapsulated him was there was one against Island I think was 90 where Rob threw the ball at my feet which was just the usual sort of so I’m stumbling around trying not to fall over and and then just as I straighten up pass him the ball and he’s going a rate of knots and you just like yep and uh there was an anticipation I think I could read inside the two times a game that you got the ball will just had the faith to put it there sometimes but and it’s it is that understanding and sometimes it’s just inbuilt yeah you know Will’s not you could quite easily not not pass that ball on but you can hear a shake going bum face on your shoulder but I also think one of the things he had more than you know I’m sure tins there’s certain players who I think have an awareness of space just have a radar that right and he had it and you’re sort of like so he just knew you just all you had to do literally was just look a little bit and see what line he was on and put the ball there because he was picking his line because he knew where they were moving and that’s so for me that’s all I had to do was basically just work out what line you was it what was the second try the second Dy was Scotland in 90 which was the same year CU you got the wind in the hair in that as well you took the break off that was it was your outside break wasn’t it that fed well not yeah but I had to slow down yeah I to put I had to put a few breaks but it was just like you I just knew he was you just knew right so that was the fact that Scotty Hastings got way too worked up and was coming for and you just so it was just easy but like those are the things that was the sort of space that actually that’s what what he could do and and I you know will had lots of but no one else has done that yeah or could do that was it an appreciation as well because if you go through you probably half of the perfect model of a center then you put them both together it’s a perfect partnership type thing because like will had loads of flaws it looked like he should never ever play rugby because he’d just get broken um but he had again like Jerry I think his skill set was turning up at the right place at the right time to find that right Gap and if that wasn’t there it was like tins step forward I think will wanted will scored tries as well yeah he was hungry to Scot so he would anticipate where he needed to be and he and he was clever and smart enough to know you know I can to I I can actually you if I think about my height and my weight I can reach and do everything everything he was an in genuinely intelligent rugby player he knew how to play his height and weight but he was first and foremost he loves scoring tries so that’s he was to the line I think we I think he bribed a lot of people to passing the ball and good Wales quarterfinals Robo should have just put me underneath the sticks would have hit the kick he put it outside to will will scores in the car gives it all that yeah B of A showman what were you both like pregame did you get very nervous uh he no I don’t think he did he didn’t um again will had his own separate cubicle in the T him underneath the West stand a hair dryer I needed all the stuff you know what I mean and I didn’t want to do that try your best to look good play getting short no I I I don’t no I think you were you were pretty relaxed I was very relaxed you come in someone have the headphones in I was I was right I was excited right from the peacham hotel some people be you know like you got that game face I’m thinking why have you got a face like that this should be you’re there to enjoy it so I’d be looking along the a30 whatever it is into twick and once we got to the West car park there was a lot more space a lot more going on there you look for friends thinking what could do with a glass of champagne now as well with them and have a sandwich but I just you’re looking at the ones trying to break in he’s looking at the pra sandwich the back of I just I just I just loved it all I absolutely embraced it all and then i’ get in the change room and You’ literally wait you’d have some guys that get changed really quickly start warming up start stretching that was when before we used to go out onto the onto the pitch and and warm up and go through your drills Dino wouldn’t get he wouldn’t get he wouldn’t get changed until about 10 minutes to kickoff I mean literally be sat there chilling his beans pretty similar really yeah yeah would sit there and say to you know he’d say give me a shout 10 minutes to go and he’d just sit with his legs crossed and I don’t think he ever did one but he just used to be and he did and you’d Go Dino 10 minutes ago oh okay put the paper down but what you what did you have a routine I I I didn’t have much of a I sat in the same place yeah I think we and I had um not not really no and I wasn’t massively I’m not superstitious yeah did you have to think about what you going to say you could tell no I was trying to think through how are we going to try and play what if and you’ve done this all week if it doesn’t start well what you say so you’re having to do all that sort of have it in your head yeah because I do think without getting heavy about a huge part of captaincy is just being able to talk it’s almost like body language or tone of voice when it all starts going wrong is just trying to appear calm say a few say a few relevant and that’s it get guys focused on but so you you had to have that in your head whereas you’re not being funny Jerry’s he’s thinking about him playing and we just want to get out there we want to get out there we know you’ve gone through no different than I supect they do today as they did when tins played if we kicking off we know exactly what we to do we know where it’s going to go we know what we expect them to do out left kick right to left we kick off left will um and if we were receiving we knew we knew what we’re going to do so I just I just wanted to get out there there wasn’t a lot I don’t think and again you’re it’s it’s all sort of subliminal so subconscious you’re not in the nicest way you’re not always listening some players do I remember you can be in a change room and I knew there was a couple of players when I was in the bath change room that wanted me to say something to them so you need you you’d go and say a few words to them because that’s what they got used to when they came into the into the squad um you know when tins came to B was like sorry mate you got wait a little bit longer not ready yet clean my boots um but with England I think we all knew we all your RS I mean you might you might remember that there was maybe a couple of players that you might have had to I don’t know maybe new guys coming in spend a little bit more time I think dur in the days before I I think most most players are pretty locked off in a changing room do you know what I mean there sort of there’s not a lot of information taken on board anymore by that stage of it’s you know you try and talk to them if anything in that morning or certainly the few days before but changing them you’d like to think they’re I think as if you noticed something that might be a little bit different cuz the coach has said they have their last words in the hotel then it’s down to the captain in the squad and it somebody might just be a little bit off which the captain’s going to notice or one of the senior players but it’s also I think forwards had a different mentality back in those days they weren’t really about detail it was about they were go to war some weren they it was a man it was a man test and how how much you were going to get stuck in so you probably leave them alone a little bit it it’s very interesting to hear you say you just wanted to love every bit of it did did you love it did you do it I did love it yeah yeah yeah but in a very different way by the side of it uh you just didn’t quite have the freedom that yeah you know so I I wouldn’t have changed you know Christ you’re you’re you’re asked to be Captain you go great but you know you’re thinking if I look back you know you’re 22 and it would been I I wouldn’t change it but Christ it would have been nice to have three or four years just playing and actually being able to no for the sake of everyone else did you consider that saying no yeah no no no no you so so you’re sort of like you’re on a call and he goes want you you go yes it’s only when you put the phm down you go now what have I done [ __ ] uh so no you know you I wouldn’t have changed it of course I wouldn’t but you think it’s it’s it’s massive on but it it just meant that it was slightly different yeah we even if you think about I you’ve kept in you’ve kept in England um um that went well that’s another show hey one six nations First lost Grand game in the only game him playing right right chill say it wasn’t the fact that Johnny was injured mudos was injured Phil vicory was injured no sound like scar by um when you when you when you think I mean you’re never off so we we as not not not C in flipping G in the morning flipping chill I be can eat what we want have a bit of crack Will’s always Will’s like observing looking or any Camp then you get to the changing room how are they feeling G play the game is probably the only time you can actually focus on your job what you’re going to do as part of the team and then if we’re winning then don’t forget we had after every five nations game we had a function to go to which you had to get up and speak you’re on the top table not with the lads I think yeah uh so we never start with all the guys that really liked you yeah oh yeah those 57 old thing yeah um so we never you know will just had everything and then it was actually I I remember you know Jerry said right I remember sitting on that table how F watching us all giving it no in fact not watching you because the tables were just empty you in the bar and I’m like this is great isn’t it sitting here just you know um and and I remember one of the presidents said to me I used to have to have lunch with them at the East India club right he said I know what I want you to concentrate on this year Well he said your speech is right so I laughed cuz I thought that’s quite funny and I said no what and he was being serious he said you don’t put anywhere near enough I said well the players don’t want to hear me anymore and he went no no it’s about the guests of the Rugby Football Union and you’re like and that sort of was like they they’re all in the bar been in the bar for hours and you’re sitting there waiting to make a speech and okay it’s a small thing to have to do but sometimes you’re like God I would love to just yeah get anyway different different times yeah yeah um did you ever cover isn’t the right word was there any part of his role that you ever thought I that’s a better of that or were you always very very CU some of the personal stuff I W have minded right um but the the game uh will uh no literally it at the time you were so in it you don’t I didn’t anyway I didn’t think about that’s probably why I couldn’t be Captain yeah I wasn’t thinking about everybody else I was thinking about the game the match what I was going to do with when I got the I just wanted the ball yeah um I felt actually yeah I think emotionally will was Captain of England will I felt was had his place in in the team there’s no I didn’t think you were ever not going to be selected yeah because he was always going to select himself no in the but in the in the best way um but that that was the only if there was a tad of jealousy it would be that he wasn’t fighting he was without doubt he was he’s playing well he didn’t put himself out on the edge with harle Quinns to be given and that was whether you were injured or one in time off or just did it right became the consument professional before most of us did yeah um but so that was the only Tad thing I had was like will was belt and braces in that England team yeah and where we I was fighting for one place that’s how it felt the reality is something different 91 Grand Slam World Cup 92 Grand Slam 95 and and lots in between as well but when do you two think you played your best rugby could be part of the part the that that whole five years there wasn’t yeah there wasn’t we used to love I used to love French games there was a certain atmosphere when we played the French that you were just so pumped up and as a three quarter it was the most testing game we ever played because they came from anywhere and everywhere it’s like they were dropping out the sky and suddenly there’d be seven in front of you you go where where did they come from and that’s when you had to rely so much you know I was always pushing guys to the outside I knew will was always going to be inside me and I just knew if we had a moment a chance and opportunity bing bing bing and off we go yeah but that that that period there was no arrogance there was just we got that’s got put our boxes in 1990 yeah but nobody nobody everyone goes oh you’re overwhelming favorites I played in ‘ 89 with most of that I played but I knew more of the Scottish team than I knew of the english team and there were more probably more Lions on that Scottish Squad than they were in the English Squad but we were overwhelming favorites but that whole that from that game we just went that ain’t happening a game and it and it never did yeah apart from the World Cup the following year but that that was that was a magic period it was a magic magic period of rugby that we were all in syn you’ve played in a a good team you know that english team you plead very good team and you ju you’re just on it you just you don’t really need to say too much you just look at each other and you’re on it yeah I think it’s yeah I think maybe 90 was some of the the best rugby right and then you know we got that wrong but I think 92 there was a lot um it’s weird you just you just knew I just I knew how he played right and you knew and in a sense I think and I think that’s the biggest Advantage whether you know people agreed with the Midfield but it sort of stuck so we just understood how we played which is probably exactly what you Johnny and and will and and that gives you just a second or half and that at that level is crucial and I think consistency cookie consistency is massive just knowing what like if you’re in a TR of like rob you you two you just know what people need in a certain situation because you’ve been there and you’ve got the experience to be able to recall in I’ve seen this situation before I know what Rob wants or I know what Jerry needs here and that’s why having it that consistency in selection and Partnerships is key but you have to play well to keep it going you know what they’re talking about in today’s rugby is the center Partnerships over the years have been fractured disjointed fly house play ins if an inside Center and outside Center come together like they have over the years and play well you pick yourself and there the partnership or the trio is formed you can’t just make it it’s made by the players but also and with and you know this is like without blowing smoke up his ass right you think um now go on again per pipe yeah you know when when you think when I think think about um what Jerry kept you know you’re thinking rob me how it’s just sort of think they quite sort of conventional we were quite conventional and then he I would say would was not conventional right he had attitude um he was different and it was and I just think it’s weird you look back and you get way better when you look back like we were far from perfect and it’s like when I was involved England everyone looks at teams and go you know people didn’t get on of course they didn’t get on you know they weren’t best mates but there was a I’d like to think there was chemistry that just worked because he he provided an edge you know Rob and I are pretty you know um and and Howers or or Webby so and he was different and um which was great you had the links all the way through so I knew so the same as will knew where I’d be I knew where Rory Underwood would be yeah I knew where Simon hodkinson would be like 30 yards behind us and Webby um but you just knew yeah and and it was through it was through training it was through playing against one another you you you just knew it and it wasn’t the the better we played the longer we played together the more intuitive it it became and it and it it just worked can I read your question so this is from 2001 um and this is you talking Jerry so I think this was at the release of your autobiography actually we weren’t mates but we weren’t enemies he was just a guy I played rugby with the difference between him and Leonard is I still speak to Jason two or three times a week on the phone whereas will phones me up when he wants me to do something I don’t dislike him by any stretch of the imagination he did a hard job it’s difficult to be Captain outside numbers 1 to 10 and on Carling the player he could do things I couldn’t and I could do things he couldn’t he pretty much went up and down the line occasionally he’d break outside and he did give me the odd past to continue a move I mean this is obviously 24 years ago but what’s what’s so interesting about seeing the two of you now is it sort of feels like time has has made you appreciate what you had more but were there were there times where you ever actually sort of fell out playing well not really you just you just play together and that was it yeah look if we lived if I play for quins we’d probably be mates uh you know I’m mates with tins because we played at Birth I don’t because I’m we cracking CH debatable but yeah but we you know we live miles well not totally miles part but your lives just go on but we we didn’t live in the same vicinity I really enjoyed I wanted to get to England play with England and we did yeah and when we’re on the field when we’re on training it was great but will had so much to do off the field that we weren’t involved in and had a personal life also will you could put it the other way around will will wasn’t in my life off off the Rugby field but there is a massive huge amount of respect for what what will could do on the field and what we did together that’s yeah I I actually look and and I don’t know whether you get more Rose tinted get but I would never have said we were mates right you played you were teammates right and had massive respect but it’s it’s almost like when you went away there were probably four or five guys that would see right or you know and and they be at your Club yeah most of the time because actually you know you you just didn’t have time to go there was a there’s a period so I’m my me and wills will and you know there are jokes around and stories around that you just fuel sometimes just because the audience want to hear it whether it’s true or whether it’s not but you do so the impression might be you know will didn’t pass me I mean all you got to do is watch the games and realize you know I scored 30 30 tries I think for England so must have passed to me at least two of those occasions so yeah there’s just you know how often do you see will Greenwood well I say I I see will because we walk in the same space now in terms of like the commercial side of it which wasn’t a massive thing probably when you did well I see I see well well I see BU actually she now but yeah well bch lives in another country that’s true thank God and will I mean but only during so during the summer how much it’s very rarely socially it’s always yeah there’s another really nice quote which which sort of belies some of what we’ve just touched on which was actually from a really good article with you in the telegraph the other day um and the question was put to you recalling your your old partner Jeremy guset when he persuaded you to hobble onto a pub on crutches for a drink after your final game as Captain in 96 The Narrative when he was appointed was the Posh little idiot in inverted comment it says trying to win over some of England’s Great Hard Men aord team winterbottom renle Richards but he walked into the pub that night and they were all there waiting for him that blew me away said Carling so there obviously was this I’m just fascinated in in the characters that you were at the very height of your powers and and how time has sort of I love I love what you’re saying which is essentially there’s a rose tinted sort of looking back at it all now you could hardly look back at what happened and what we were involved in and be disappointed I mean KY it was Mega T I mean my memory is is rubbish and it’s nothing to do with the knocks and Banks and R because I didn’t get involved in that side of the game um but I I wanted to I just wanted to win so badly not not to the detriment of the team not to the detriment of relationships and then get on it and then properly get on it and those were the days when we did it wasn’t until my late you know the late ’90s that we started wandering into time because there wasn’t so much of the functions as we got to the end but it was it was pretty Grim after games we had to get dressed up up in DJs and the greatest bit was on the coach going back where something the new cap or someone knew would have to get up and sing a song there’d be drinks he quickly crash into the hotel uh say hi to your Ms and then and then it was separate dinners as well so the girls went to one dinner the men went to all men’s dinner DJ spee cheers get the first C drunk let him puke uh and and then get back to the Hilton where we could all get put steak sandwiches and free piss on on Will’s room lovely yeah pick up the tab yeah yeah um Haven spoke to me all week and I paid for all your drinks I can I can well imagine you couldn’t look back on that time and be disappointed it was it was magical it really was but you’re when you’re in it you you just got to know you have re very little appreciation of what people are thinking how you you just want to play the next game yeah and yeah and and exact and we were doing okay so you’re sort of thinking it was you know it was a good time but part of the role was the occasional you know people got dropped and you had to explain that to them there were so there were bits that you did that not the most popular bit and I think that’s the hard part of captaincy is just you know Everyone likes the leadership bit you know oh that’s great and but there occasionally there’s and there’s also telling people you know that’s that’s not good enough mate we you know we got to do this or and so yeah there’s always that underlying part um and there was and that’s just and I don’t think will ever put himself in a position for us as a team to go hold on you’re talking about standards you got to live up to them yourself and will conducted himself brilliantly throughout that period I mean even to the point of the 57 old farts again people say I say I say what I think and what other people want to say and that got to a point where will just said it and it’s what everybody was thinking yeah how often do people remind you of the 57 Old FS now yeah quite a lot is it really yeah yeah it’s just one of those phrases that will live forever yeah um which rightly or wrongly is just yeah you you didn’t mean to be out there but it it it got caught and you know but hey that’s you know but I as Jerry said right I I you you loved it right and and I loved it and I I suppose you know what I don’t want you love it but you would you would just had to try and keep yourself just slightly detached from it and that’s the bit that I sort of if you you look back with thinking oh I’d love to have just had a bit longer but yeah I wouldn’t change it I would you know I couldn’t you know so you got eras so today’s Captain can get dropped like that literally like that it’s you know you’re going through the England team’s been since 2003 4 five even despite getting to Final in ‘ 07 it’s been quite iffy yeah and and you you’re picked as Captain now you’re not part of selection you you’ve got to be picked by the way you’re playing not because you’re Captain it’s happened once I think when jonno picked bwick as as Captain he picked him as Captain not as the best player and I I think that those days are long gone yeah and that’s you know will playing in this era might still struggle to make friends but old habits die hard no but you would be more part the captain’s more part of the team these days without doubt yeah one of the really things interesting things in that Telegraph article I mentioned that popped up was the Mr Blobby sketch oh bling yeah and one of the reasons I think that Carling and guset stands so high in the in the sort of echelons of of English rugby partnership is because of both your profile is that but in many ways it is your profile brought us all together off the pitch as well I mean you doing Gladiators you know there were it it was a time where English rugby players were recognizable up and down the High Street as opposed I think the current crop would say there aren’t many necessarily that if they walk out it be great if there was uh the S PR came into a like both of you I’ve got I’ve got a great idea I’d love to know his reaction got a lovely Gladiators hosting Johnson do as just fit for your physique will do do you remember that I mean I do it was very very funny watching it back again yeah and it was enjoyed yeah I I Can Only Imagine how many back in that gen I don’t know it must have been generational right they’d find bits of information right and and you could tell right the way you knew there were bits of information that got out was you would get on the coach to go to training from the Petersham hotel to and we used to go and train at Quinn’s or whatever and the forwards would always be on the back and you just knew something was out right cuz there would be like they all be sort of chuckling away right and so you would sort of I would Al sit sort of halfway politically sort right and then uh I think there was one time Jerry gets on and suddenly they had found out that he used to be a bus driver on the badger line in B right so he gets on and can hear all right and then and then it starts off and suddenly you hear ding ding next stop please drives you know all right Jerry drives you know ding ding right so Jerry’s sort of looking around going what the you know and they’re killing themselves laughing right so this is just ding ding right and I mean he’s getting until you could just rely and all you had to do in that era was just keep quiet keep quiet because dowy Morris will say something even worse right and he did he pipes up with something and the whole focus goes from Jerry to dowe and he just gets and you’re thinking it was BR it was brutal wasn’t it yeah people who listened or watched that would just never imagine we were any of us were friends the banter was was harsh they just rip you to pieces I ran into one of your old teammates the other day and mentioned we were doing this he said ah buscot which I thought was a very good nickname actually who that the Glanville uh no delalio oh yeah oh yeah Jason L would call me buscot buscot oh that was a very good one actually but it’s interesting because both of you you I mean the profiles you had me there was a lot of front pages as well as back the environment you were in was there was there ever someone who you could bounce it off or did you just have to wear it did you ever compare notes and sort of are you I think will started uh what inspiration Horizons that you formed a company I think character yeah that didn’t get mentioned right so will was one of the first certainly in our country we always had rumors of Australians kiwis being professional rugby players in the amateur era and Will was one of the first ones I think in the UK certainly England to sort of get on that that wagon of forming your own company going out and maximizing utilizing your profile was uh an international and a captain and I that was it was all it to me anyway it all seemed quite separate and then we formed a company the the England rugby team formed a company before the world no before the World Cup yeah yeah in 91 yeah yeah and that was all linked together just for the for the World Cups and and the you know the Internationals and what promotional PR stuff we could do at that time with the restrictions that were to given to us as amateur did you come up against a few brick walls and trying to push that sort of thing through was itown yeah and and and the wor well the interesting bit was when he looked back I remember I I worked for Mobile Oil right and um and I just there was so much that needed doing right and I remember giving up my job and my mom said to me so what are you going to do and I went I’ve got no idea I said and I genuinely had no idea I said but there’s so much that needs to be done here there’s a guy Don Rutherford you know um and I’d be talking to Don almost like every day and there were I remember like there was a young guy Martin Hines was was going to have his first cap and it was you know it was it was coming over to France but he couldn’t afford to fly his girlfriend over CU you know it was and I’m like this is ridiculous you know all the committee getting flown over and I’m arguing with Don I said you got to get this changed all this there was just there was no one else to do that stuff right so you know I had to sort of you know you just trying to get loads and loads of bits done and I just thought I I need time to I couldn’t work yeah and do all the stuff that needed doing so um and actually at the time I sort of you know you give up your job we weren’t doing hugely well so there was no great demand for you know um anything leadership wise but um you just sort of thought actually I got to give this a go for however long I’ve got it I’m going to give it a go um but they are yeah the rfu god I remember I remember we toured 94 T South Africa amateur game I think James small scored first night game we played was injured flashed up flashed up on the on the big screen both ends his bonus for scoring a try and we were standing under the post going this is interesting I mean it was just different world yeah um so there was a few discussions with the committee guys on tour I don’t think anyone as the players doing what they were doing I mean Rory the if there were poster boys yeah it was people that scored tries and people that did Big tackles and and a captain it’s a very good night ke advert as well it’s not the winning it’s the taking apart yeah taking apart they they did it well back then actually and that was I think that was 91 wasn’t it that was so we didn’t actually take we I can’t remember the money went to some sort of found it did didn’t it but we just wanted to make the principle of we should be able to do there should be adverts with players on it there should be yeah you know and Morrow was lead in charge um he was Pro was he Morrow yeah yeah course yeah yeah he was um you know whatever needed doing we doing it but um yeah uh we all had jobs that allowed us to train I remember going for one of my interviews with um I think it was on the buses so I was on Badger line and and I was missing games because of my shift work and so the club kind of went right we got to change this because we need you and the team I went for an interview with British gas Southwest as it was at the time and I’ve sat in this office that is about this twice the size of this studio and I’m having a cup of tea fruit cake mug saucer and I’m chatting and we’re for 25 minutes we’re talking about the game that’s just be played the game that we’re going to play and uh the last five minutes shakes my hand well Jerry you got the job I said oh what does that entail am I uh what what can I get time off for and he said anything think rugby related I said so I want to train because of rugby can I have time yeah yeah of course you can if I get invit to a golf charity golf day because I’m Jeremy gunot the rubby player not Jeremy gunot who works for British G off yeah of course you had I worked about two days a week if that wow so it was yeah it was in in in those days a month that was you but yeah that was it but not the and then the promotional stuff came came a little bit later interesting um do you know what I would did want to put it because we haven’t done it yet I can’t believe we haven’t is our Continental Tires question of the week feel free to agree or disagree but a couple of questions about those you came up against the best center partnership you played against I’ll let you go first on that for the one you most enjoy playing against because of how things fitted together and you knew you could have you could get over the back of them or did you want the ones who challenged you the most the CH I mean wh and little were um you know buns was a was a buns and little you know what you’re doing with those yeah yeah you knew what was coming with was certainly with bun you know well certainly you did everything was pushed back inside you so it was like um but Cella was was pretty special luckily they kept messing him around I think shave and cah you know shave had almost like Pace like him right so you that he worried the hell out of me because he had gas um I’m not sure hor and I’m not sure that Tim it it didn’t frighten me in the same way that that shave did and and bunson little the same but I mean there were a few good combinations out there it it would be the best teams so for me hor and little were special they were youngsters they were kids coming up through were just so gifted and talented um you always said snan didn’t you this time snan BL me we were playing in South Africa on the world on 17 consecutive games uh and this was at Twickenham and we managed to beat them 137 but who scored I scored in yeah there’s a l chip across them someone tapped it down I could and went around close to the post as I could but there was that was 97 was yeah 97 98 I played in the under 21’s game before it and we won yeah and then you went on and wil had been in your squad for a bit might have been but there was a moment where snyman got the ball and I normally show people that outside and I showed him out the side I went [ __ ] me he had some serious wheels and I come one of the boys came over and helped me I was just about getting there and someone got there and just stopped it otherwise that would have been it I would have let him gone on the outside he would have gassed me would have scored and we would have lost the game but yeah that was I might the team earlier Pace was the only thing that I think Pace in any sports whether it’s of mind or of foot is where you’ve got to you’ve got to be careful there was a guy you played uh when we when we played them at Twickenham uh South Africa yeah Danny Herber Donnie luckily he was about he was but Christ when you watched sort of some of his wow he had gam Power played against lomu which was uh you played with him as well did you play with him my last International yeah was there’s a a great uh photo that what I’ve enjoyed anyway myself and and Jonah and you can just look I mean his thighs were like that and I sat next to him I look like a school kid right I’m literally a shrinking violet next to this enormous man but yeah playing with him was a was a great joy and playing against him was just a bit of a worry you’d literally see the ball going along the line and thinking you you got to be there you’ve got to be there and there’s no way you can crumple but you’re just thinking keep going on the outside kid keep going oh oh sh I better go and help he was he was courageous you see yeah we’re talking about Jerry or Joe Jerry yeah actually which which I you know one of one of one of the um bits I think for me that sort of some we during the World Cup in ’95 yeah we um decided for a bit of team building I don’t know how this came under the guys of team building we’d go paintballing right and and uh it was forwards against backs right right and uh brilliant idea so yeah so Jerry worked out that he wasn’t having any part of this he was going to spend the 4 hours or whatever it was in a wheelie bin right cuz he didn’t want to get shot I remember we got this whole lecture right right so this is what happens if you run out of ammo right you just put your gun above your head and you walk back and you know and and you know what hunts and you know who did that hunts and I remember he s of went uh out of ammo out of ammo oh must have had 100 people absolutely destroyed Lally platoon but the best part while he was in his wheelie bin I remember I’d found this really interesting spot where I could see there was like a walkway over it was this big disused Factory and I could hear Morrow sort of crawling up this thing right it’s one of the great one of my most satisfying moments as as uh as Captain and eventually his ugly little face appears right he’s obviously and he’s chuntering away I can’t remember who he was with and he’s got go yeah and I just managed to get him right between can’t repeat what he said but I just lay there laughing for about 20 minutes he hated it but um yeah so courageous here just yeah the face he was a model at that point the face was that was that the cotton Traders yeah did a bit of that bit of um catalog stuff as well South Africa Florida California so it wasn’t all bad yeah um what do we [ __ ] tackle exactly are you modeling for anyone now no not currently tell me about your relationship with Brian because the two of you it s of sounds like you got on with it with him did you did you bang say from the outside give you time to think yeah I’m sure it was from the same from yeah we was not very new to me and we had that game in 1990 and there was some decisions making I mean Rob was part of the Deion I mean will wasn’t like straight away boom this is what’s going to happen yeah a little bit of a chat and you could see that game it was an important game and Rob and will would have a conversation and then Rass and Fring would come up and you just see some flipping spittle going everywhere it’s FL jisc and flipping Point pointing and all that kind of stuff and then there’d be a scrum and you think was there a conversation that went on or was he just going to be done but uh yeah he came to Harley quin’s and you became best buddies yeah he was um it’s weird isn’t it he um he’s a very smart eloquent boy right so if I ever said right hey guys I think we should do you had he would be the first first voice you is why and you had a very good reason as to why this was and you would get picked to pieces and I think I used to try and go for dinner with him maybe once a month just to try and get to know him got nowhere near him really no absolutely I think hey look and I understand right the one thing he wanted more than anything was to be England captain and silver spoon had had got it and he just wanted it and the two times that I was injured Rob got it right so um but you know that it’s not the kind of thing that you ever dwell on and and in 2015 I think I remember getting a letter um and Rob got one as well saying you know there’s a certain allocation of World Cup tickets for ex players but there was a there was a bigger slightly bigger allocation for England captains and I rang A Rang Morrow said have you got your letter um you know and he said what was I said well you know You’ just seen that it’s great isn’t it if you’re Captain England you got you’re getting a few more oh sorry Brian wrong number right he went he went [ __ ] mad yeah but um so he oh no I get on a lot better with him since it’s all over you know I I’ve seen him socially you know not through choice but um it’s like uh and I have so but he was uh he was interesting he was he was hard but yeah yeah this the bit right you know I would say at times he was really hard I would say at times he was hard work and and but in a good way if it’s all just yeah there was nothing to toxic it was challenging and if you got if you got a decent answer you could go with it but it was so diff like obviously catching the end of this era and coming into you know walking into that bath change room played against I think I played against will in 97 cuz I asked you about this been his last game for quins we will play what did you say this is not true no obviously we’ve heard that they you know he took cap C late 88 when I was 10 so I basically said I’ve watched you since I was 11 I got moved to the centers at 14 and then suddenly these two guys were the guys that I was treding to I think we just beaten them and he just went just [ __ ] off I was 18 can’t be true well can’t be true what we said to both of them at training just do what just come back when be it’s just not what he wanted to hear that time sorry I didn’t that way I really like you but you were going to go on to say something before you got into that or not the era that it was it was relentless about what you had to take verbally physically in training you know Thursday nights first versus seconds talked about loads of times but it was also passing the test that you were mentally tough enough and I’ve always said stories about Jerry is the fact he did that on purpose to players so you have to go through that once you I mean me and BOS got through probably quicker than most because we give you give him something back and you also got to back it up with playing you can’t you know you can’t say it and not deliver it and that was just like you say but but it was part of that era that the fact that you you get through that and then you sort of you’re into the inner sanctum more but yeah but also tins I think that’s the like you also as a group you you people were just honest right you can imagine Dino and Wiz and those kind of guys they would tell you straight what they thought there was no oh bit sensitive about his feelings right you just they told you and I think that’s the bit that I think is is very very different say to and generations are different right but it was you had to deal with that because there was no and you would have had that you know with jonno and all that sort of stuff and it’s like an idea is great as long as it comes off if it doesn’t come off you’ll find out very very quickly and you yeah that’s the difference of playing I never had any fear of getting the ball and trying something there could be a move called I’ve got the ball my bat my ball I’m if I can see something I’m going for it but I’m not afraid I’m not afraid to fail yeah and in the same thing as you know you got banter on the coach in the changing room in the hotel in the team room it exists because generally you the team’s going well yeah if you’re playing poorly I think it drops off cuz you you’re a bit worried possibly worried about saying something but if your team’s going well the banter is absolutely flying around the room around the Chang room but I also think even even in a game you can give somebody something for that when you’re going well but I also think it was almost like you know I’m sure tins are the same people seem to think you you play for England right you’re all best mates yeah you’re not you know you have mates and everything but your teammates and what i’ would like to think is that you know you didn’t get on with some guys uh Vice you know but they were your teammates so if anyone from outside had a go it’s just like I don’t know Fu off you know he’s he’s my teammate and you might not go for a beer with him but he’s your teammate and I think that’s that was the bit is just um there was no one in the team you couldn’t I I genuinely I I don’t I think I got on you got on with everybody you just got on more with others and and but I could see anybody that I used to play with and and have a beer now you just didn’t have the time when you played in you’ve summed that up absolutely perfectly and that’s exactly what I thought this show would be which is it was what it was and now there’s a sort of a slightly different feeling to it and the question I was sort of going to finish with is that you obviously had that very very sad news about the judge last year and am I right you all got back together again was it the I can’t remember which which team it was 92 93 9192 you you had a reunion with the Great and the good there was that very much the same ethos that once we were teammates and now actually we’ve been through so much it’s sort of good to see you again type thing yeah no I hey look I speak for me I I think it really was it was really good to see lots of them and um and I think that’s the bit where and not CU he’s sitting here but there’s quite where you just think I wish I’d sort of made a bit more of an effort to see more of glad you you know you can’t can get just I led with both chins but it’s like um and and I think that’s the bit and it’s like with Dino you know we we were in France and I I said to him the other day H I want to organize a g fancy lunch he said yeah and I was get tee and him and went and so some of us might you know and I just thought actually I want to go for for lunch and um and just have a chat and it but I think for the judge it it was really really good to see you know lots of of of guys that Christ haven’t seen for 10 20 years it was like again it’s your you got friends from School uni wherever it might be you when you’re that close and it’s that intense and that emotional everything’s in there you pick off you pick up where you left off it was a very very it was I me it was a very special team in what was a very special era as well it sort of felt like the I mean the era that we grew up in it was it was a lot of very different to where we are now are there any itches you’d love to scratch from what was or are you as a whole when you look back now are there games or World Cup finals and bits like that I’ve never watched the World Cup final of 91 because we lost and why would I want to watch it um you know we played a World Cup Final on Saturday you’re working on Monday morning that’s the difference of of eras having a cup of tea with British gas um but really translate to a golf day exactly mod um but no I’m one of those people I kind of want to live life and I was fortunate as we all were to play at a time and an era that was just good fun and a good crack and we we had some success along the way along the way but no I’ve got no scratches that need itching well no I I I you know um exactly the same it’s it’s almost like on on that sort of uh sometimes I I don’t have anything in the house you know in terms of don’t about Jerry or or but it’s just like because part of is I don’t want to live the whole time just looking back I loved it I really did love it it was um it was I think it was a very special time but it’s almost like it you know there’s plenty of life and there’s there’s stuff to be enjoyed now so I don’t have any certainly don’t have anything that I think it is good getting back together though is it because you can you can yeah you know we were downstairs and you know tins was looking at us chatting away and is going yeah this is going to be good because you do set off where you you left off but there is you know the judge getting together for judge getting together at the at the World Cup uh Rob myself Dean and and will because you jog each other’s memories about what happened and you go oh yeah I remember that that was a really good crack that but weirdly it wouldn’t be certainly for backs it wouldn’t be about the game you get the forwards oh remember when I F I did and I did cuz it was you know you could get away with so much more yeah in those days than you can you can now but it’s just it’s reminiscing because we live life to create memories hopefully if you’ve been fortunate and you’ve been lucky and to look back on them and they never get tiring yeah they’re never not funny they just get better and better and it’s not embellishment it’s they’re not funny to anyone else but they’re really funny to us but I actually think that that’s very true right and and tins will be exactly I think because you go through um experiences together as and good and bad right you see each other you really see each other you see she see each other Under Pressure you see each other getting things wrong each other getting things right you go through you know great highs of winning games disappointment of you know you go through all that so I think when you like when we got back together for that lunch it’s like a time you just it just it’s the same humor I mean it’s 30 years apart or something but it just you’re straight into it with people I suppose that you just have a bond with because you go through something that was was was very intense but really really special and you don’t have to dance around anything you don’t have to dance you know you get straight into the heart of it yes and that’s the best thing about it because and it doesn’t matter if you don’t see him for 15 years you’re straight back in there very special oh yeah well they were inspiration to me um so it actually work [ __ ] off something’s never changed listen just before we finish do you want to do the honors from uh one of the two will enjoy it far more than the other by the sound of it I think they’ll both but we’d like to give gifts out when we’re on here so this is our gin that we are putting money back into the game to help for the future of the game if you don’t if you need something to strip the paint back but J it’s been it’s been a real privilege and I mean you know you grew up we grew up a lot of people will have thoroughly enjoyed watching you at your best and it’s very very nice to see the two of you back together again pleasure to be here good on than you very much indeed very very special episode of Rugby’s greatest unions hope you’ve enjoyed it if you haven’t seen the one yet with Gary Armstrong and Craig Charmers um which was which was very interesting in itself wasn’t it the Scottish version then do go check that out but for now thank you very much watching this is the good to B in the rugby with content Al tis we’ll see you again soon bye for [Music] now