Brandel Chamblee checks in with Soly ahead of next week’s US Open at Pinehurst to talk through his preparation for broadcasting the tournament for NBC, the distance and golf course setup debates, backlash to his stance on LIV and a ton more.
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ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the no laying up Podcast got an interview coming shortly I’ve been looking forward to for quite some time brandle shamble from the Golf Channel uh I’m not going to tease any of it you know exactly what we’re going to discuss uh you know some of our beefs in the past some distant stuff US Open he’s calling the US Open on go on uh excuse me on NBC next week a lot to get into I’m not going to waste much more of your time on the intro I want to give a shout out to our friends at Precision Pro they have been the sponsor of the last several seasons of tourus sauce and that includes season nine our SE our trip to Australia which is the F the finale will be premiering on Wednesday night 900 PM eastern time if you’re listening to this uh in time if not you can always catch the replay uh Precision Pro recently launched the Titan Elite that’s the new gold standard for golf rangefinders the Titan Elite stands out with its incredible build quality and durability thanks to its aluminum shell and IP67 dust and waterproof rating plus you can connect the Titan Elite to the Precision Pro app to take advantage of groundbreaking features like GPS front center and back of green yardages as well as f my Titan it alerts you if you’ve left your Rangefinder behind I’m sure we’ve all done that before of course it’s got the same accuracy and speed you would expect from any Precision Pro Rangefinder don’t forget about the nx10 rangefinder it’s fast accurate and available in a variety of no Lup designs including the tour sauce season 9 limited edition Vite inspired Wayward golfer design best of all Precision Pro is currently running their Father’s Day Sale all rang finders are $30 off including the new Titan Elite head to Precision progolf decom to take advantage of their best sale of the year and save $30 on on your next Rangefinder don’t forget to grab one for your dad as well again that’s Precision progolf docomond shamblin the golf world needs to know brandle they we had a you know a Twitter spat back in January if you want to call it that you know people assume there’s this massive beef between no Lang up Randle shambley are we beefing here are we squashing beef today what what is it from your Viewpoint oh man I was just poking the bear I having a little fun I was just having a little fun I know you guys and look I say this all like everybody needs a Critic everybody needs an editor so I appreciate that yall hold people accountable for their for what they do on TV you do I mean I think you’ve had an impact I think broadcasts get better from criticism I think everybody needs an editor you know before you hit send on anything you need to have somebody look at it go yay no does it need a smiley face so I was just poking the bear I know you guys give us a lot of grief about our commercial loads but over the winter you know I was doing my homework and I hadn’t seen your Lee Travino interview you know in the middle of it you run an ad for a couple minutes or whatever and I thought well I’ll just give you a little [ __ ] and then you know you you came back with a long beef of which were some pretty darn good uh counters but I was like this is not the place to carry this out because one I’m busy and I can’t give you the bandwidth needed to answer each one of these well done on you but I was like that’s not the time replace at some point we’ll run across each other and have a drink or a beer and we’ll hash this out and that’s andest the drinks you know I said this yeah it’s a little early uh on West Coast time for that I’m getting close to noon here I could have done that but uh I I’ve said this many times I’m team brandle right people think that you know people love to pile on with you that’s one thing I’ve definitely noted and you know people are like oh great job putting brandle in his place I’m like well yeah had to put him in his place on this one but I’m team brandle here like I’ve long said this like top 10 guy in golf to be seated next to at a dinner I think you’re role is really important we might disagree on things but I I just find the whole atmosphere to be so toxic of like you know if you’ve made your mind up that if you don’t like us or if you don’t like brandle you have to disagree with almost everything they say or just kind of almost put that person down uh you know I like debating the individual merits of the conversation right I don’t like when things get especially personal so I’m happy to have kind of those debates I think we’re going to debate some stuff here today but I think that’s healthy and it’s needed in the golf world I I could agree more unfortunately we live in a world where you know if you have one side you have to hate the other politically if you’re a republican you have to hate a Democrat and if you’re a Democrat you have to hate Republicans like wait a minute whoa whoa the fun part is to sit around and talk about things and you know the back and forth I think make makes everybody better and that’s true in everything and it’s certainly true in the golf space where what we confuse with controversy doesn’t anywhere near approach the divisiveness in in the rest of the world so uh as I said I was just poking the bear having a bit of fun if we’ had been sitting at a table I would have said [ __ ] [ __ ] come on hold on wait a minute you haven’t thought about this you haven’t thought about this you guys have thought about it no doubt but I would hope that you’d come away from a conversation uh just with a little bit different perspective as I likely to at the end of this well and it’s it’s interesting because one I don’t you know we have a lot of broadcasters and whatnot on from networks and I don’t want to direct critiques or criticisms for things that are not your area of expertise or not where you what you’re hired to do at NBC nobody’s ask me about my uh thoughts on the commercial loads at NBC when I walked through the door that’s not that’s not what I’m here to you know make people apolog I mean we had a big kind of a debate I guess if you will with Jim N several years ago when we were especially critical of CBS I was I’m hard pressed to like you know direct a lot of critiques at at a person who’s not responsible for all that that right and I think it it just comes down to for me of uh if I felt like we were really off base with our audience the golf audience in terms of they also are viewing uh some struggles in the professional golf world and aside from living all that stuff you know I wouldn’t be as vocal about it right I wouldn’t be as as as critical about it it’s to say I understand the points you’re making of saying look if I understand the the needing to run commercials for having spent a ton of money on golf coverage right or on uh on rights and all that it’s to say like sometimes my critiques of NBC are more at the tour it may sound like it’s at Golf Channel and NBC but it’s more of the touret everybody came to an agreement that this is how things were going to work right it’s all the the excuse we get a lot is contracts contracts contracts well kind of takes two people on both sides to sign a contract right to agree to do something like this and that’s where I mean I’m just old man yelling at Cloud sometimes it’s not going to change any anytime you know that we have this current TV deal but that’s kind of the source of of where we’re coming from on all this it’s not that we don’t understand that it costs a lot of money to produce the golf and it costs money to run cameras and all that it’s just to say Comcast is a massive company and how they devote their resources to covering the sport that I cover and love is I feel like a fair conversation point in a lot of ways yeah and look what I would have said what I’m gonna say is you think about the commitment to golf that NBC and golf channel has um 365 days a year we cover pretty much every tour in the world you know you think about what we did yesterday with golf’s longest day you know days like yesterday make me very proud of NBC golf channel golf it’s good work I mean you tune in and you you you watch Justin low get emotional uh to the point of Tears talking about what it’s going to mean to play in his first major at 35 years of age and the possibility that he might be playing on Father’s Day after his father passed away 20 years ago the emotion of Willie Mack you look at the the playoff I mean we we brought you that chip in of Adam Scott you know going up against Cam Davis I mean in the overall golf world maybe that’s inconsequential in terms of outcome but my goodness tell me that wasn’t good TV John chin getting emotional we bring you those stories you know when Arnold Palmer passes away 24hour commitment to coverage to talk to everybody involved in the golf world about what he meant to the game his peers the fans the whole bit when Tiger has his you know accidents we’re we’re there do we occasionally make a mistake you guys were right in criticizing golf channel NBC for not being up uh at the PGA Championship on the morning that Scottie Sheffer Sam flood has admitted that he was like yeah I’d like to have that one back but the overall scheme of things you think about the commitment that NBC golf channel has and the rights fees that we have to pay to cover the PGA Tour the LPGA Tour college golf Junior Golf Drive Chip and Putt stories uh women’s golf you tell me who’s more committed to women’s golf than NBC and Golf Channel to the European tour uh you know you get to watch players in pron suser hitting beautiful golf shots that costs upwards of 10 figures 10 figures plus so how’s it going to be paid for I mean I don’t think these businesses are in the philanthropic uh that’s not that I mean they’re not philanthropic they’re meant to make money so I get it how do you how do you mesh commercial loads with uh with the outlay of cash again that’s not my area of expertise but I imagine there’s some really smart people thinking about it but they have to have Buy in on every side as little as I know about it my job is to go in there talk about the golf when I walk through the door they ask me whose swing I like who I who I think’s gonna win that week who’s gonna lose etc etc but I’m like you I’m a I’m a Golf Nut through and through I do this job because I love it and yeah I I do enjoy watching commercial free golf like you do uh but I also understand when they break away to to commercials they’ve got bills to pay all that’s fair and I think again we could go down a whole rabbit hole and probably spend a whole episode you know talking about a lot of this stuff I think it it kind of comes with at times golf can feel a bit like you’ve said there as well like when it starts to feel like a line item right on a on a p&l as a golf fan that can sometimes be frustrated I don’t want to you know dismiss the the individual decisions that go into this but it also goes to say and this is kind of a once in a generation example but like ESPN’s investment in WNBA and and women’s college basketball over the course of several decades has led to a massive moment where now they’re getting big Returns on it right so it’s to say for PJ tour lpj tour all kinds of golf like the investment of of kind of recruiting fans generating interest sending live from again I know that’s not for you but I would love if live from was at the Signature Events like I would and put on the tour and the sponsors to put up the money for that I I don’t that’s for somebody else to figure out but as a golf fan I love watching you guys on live from every event feels bigger when live from is there when you guys are at the players that feels like a separated event from the rest of the PJ tour schedule and all of that kind of investment and support into it is kind of what goes beyond just commercial loads and and some of the things that are really tedious to to complain about so that’s you’re not gonna get any argument from me I mean I love being on site uh you know there’s a connection to the tournament that uh people at home can feel we all want the same thing out of it right is what I ultimately get at with all of it is I want golf to be as popular as possible I want as many people watching it that would be great for our show that’d be great for your show it’ be great for the sport it just the excitement level is what drives it and that’s kind of where it can be frustrating sometimes to watch and be like all right that was a great five minutes and now we’re back in playing through and all right that was a good two minutes and now we’re it’s just that momentum can be really tough but I I put a lot of that on the tour too like that the structure of their rights fees and and the purses and and how they pre-sell advertising and kind of share that Revenue blah blah blah I don’t want to spend a ton of time on that but like that’s that’s not all NBC’s fault CBS deals with the same problems and and and all that so yeah but we’re also all pretty spoiled with our streaming choices that are commercial free we pay for it on the front end so we get so used to watching whatever the heck we’re watching without any Interruption so I mean I think that that does contribute to it for sure but I I take your points again you know I cannot imagine the outlay of cash and what it cost to produce these tournaments what it cost to get live from on site uh is it’s a it’s a pretty big chunk of change and again you know I mean I think you can appreciate as y’all are in business to make money so is every other TV network that covers the game of golf yeah I want to just before we move off any of this uh just I want to give a shout out to the phrase thank you for bringing sensory Blitz Creek into our lives that was one of my I don’t even remember what you said it about but that was one of my favorite phrases that we’re going to continue to use uh use forever but uh so I was this even on your radar to start the year that you would become the the lead color analyst uh for the United States Open Championship which is going to happen for the for the first time next week was this even a thought when the year kicked off no no no it wasn’t you know late last year though uh I think at the hero they asked us to come up and and cover the live golf uh before the actual broadcast came so you know you’re covering the live golf from Connecticut and the Bahamas and like anything you roll your sleeves up you’re like well if I’m going to be responsible for calling the live golf for six holes I’m going to download charts and look at the weather and go back and look at the history of the thing and try to do as good a job as I can thousands of miles away uh and and cover it and you know what you you you know you you have a commitment you want to tell the audience something that’s not obvious and those six holes nothing a throwaway and so you dive in and you do it and um you know I think they liked it and you know at the end of the year they thought it came up and said would you would you think about doing some live golf I said look you guys are the bosses you want me to do live golf I’ll I’ll do live golf uh but I you know my I love my passion is live from in the studio shows the mechanics of calling live golf are completely different from the mechanics of doing what I normally do the nature of what or how you’re explaining it is different but the underlying principle is you roll your sleeves up and what do you have to know I have to know the golf course and I have to know the players that sounds simple enough but that takes a lot of time what are some of the differences that you encounter in you know call calling live golf you know a lot of people probably don’t have appreciation for like your windows to get some words in sometimes might be tight you don’t know how long they’re going to be when you start a sentence and if you got something that’s going to take 60 seconds that ain’t this maybe not the spot on television but what have you kind of learned and evolved in this process from doing it a few times well you know live from somebody asked me a question and I’m generally looking into a camera for about 90 seconds or turning and having a conversation with uh McGinley to my left uh for 90 seconds or a couple of minutes you’ve got all the Time in the World to expound on things and in live golf uh first and foremost it’s okay to say nothing I can’t really say nothing on live from you gotta have an opinion that wouldn’t be the best it doesn’t work so first and foremost it’s okay to say nothing second most important is to listen uh so that you’re picking up what everybody else is saying and you’re you’re not repeating what somebody else is saying and and then you’re trying to fill in the gaps you know what’s not been said but you have nine seconds at most nine words not 90 seconds you you know there there’s no soliloquies it’s it’s N9 seconds you’re in and out again it’s imperative that you know the golf course thoroughly you know the setup you know all the partners in the game and you but you know you know the players inside and out which is you know you got to know something about their caddies you got to know something about their coaches you got to know something about you know what they’re working on did they play well last week do they like the golf course you read all their commentary and you know that’s a lot to digest and and live from you know yeah I think live from works best when organically conversations and debates come up and both sides feel passionately about different sides of an issue that way we can get to 360 degrees of it and people at home can make up their own mind about you know what it doesn’t have to be a winner or a loser in these debates it’s just get it out there talk about it and have some fun with it live golf is it’s nothing like that it’s you know this is what’s cool about the shop but let me just tell you about this whole location is in the day you’re going here etc etc and this is a cool move watch this I I love the way this guy works his lower body and here’s how he develops all that power but you’ve only got nine words you’ve only got 10 seconds it’s about the golf they’re the stars and I think it was Henry Longhurst who said you’re just a caption writer and I think that’s the best EX explanation of calling live golf is you know you’re just a caption riter you know there’s the picture and can you add to it with a caption writer but again it’s okay to say nothing and to try to not talk over the hit so and then you you know it’s such a huge Team game oh my gosh it’s insane live that’s live golf is just oh my God all the cameras all the things going and they’re loading up the next shot and the next shot and over to 13 it’s graphics and all that it’s massive yeah it’s such a team game you know and and everybody there is is so passionate about covering it you you know I I’ve only done a few events this year but a few of them I’m sitting there I’m listening like that’s really good that’s great stuff and you know you finish and there’s no need to say anything else like it couldn’t have set it up any better and then you just sit there and soak in the sounds of the game because the sounds are awesome in this game you know somebody trying to decide which club and the the iron sort of clattering together you know um the conversations that players and caddies have you know sometimes they’re nothing special but sometimes they’re absolute solid gold uh so you lay out and listen to those and then you look at the expressions of the players yay or nay and it’s it’s it’s a pretty fun fluid Dynamic world to be a part of in and out but having said that I’ve like youve sat and watched NBC and they’ve used kizner this year I watch kizner and I think absolutely just hire Kevin that’s great then Luke Donald comes along like hire Luke he’s terrific you know I thought Podrick heren would want to do it I thought Podrick would you know he wants to play more he’s busy doing what he does Jeff olvy there’s a handful of people I’ve listened to this year where I thought man they’re great just just hire them let’s go but you know they’re they want to take their time and finding who they want to find uh and I understand that and I appreciate it sorry to brandle I have to interrupt this interview with an ad break but of course you guys all know roback active wear best fit best feel it is summer we are living in roback they just released their American Summer Collection it is fantastic Beyond just the golf they got bathing suits now you can use that to go from hot day on the Golf Course straight to the pool the performance polos moisture wicking they got great stretch the collar is crisp it doesn’t lose its shape they fit way better than those old boxy polos they’re the best designs paired with the best feeling polos out there they’re shorts fantastic they’re comfortable they’re 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without Rob back back to Brand shamble what how do you prepare for for Pinehurst right uh you know have you watched any prior us opens there back in and separately as well are you you know if you go listen to Johnny Miller do you hear and say here oh man that that’s really good I should try to I should try to em you know take some of that with me while also making a call your own and making a style your own I’m just kind of curious uh I just watched the 99 US Open and I was having a freaking ball watching it is is kind of where my I’m coming from first of all there’s no duplicating Johnny Miller I mean uh following Johnny Miller in the booth is like following Robin Williams on the stage uh you are just not gonna live up to that expectation I go back and I listen to Johnny Miller and I think there’s never been anybody more precient in the history of sports who’s called a sport uh you know the thing that made Johnny amazing was one he was a incredible player so at the highest level of the game it’s okay that his first thoughts would run to him in 73 7475 you know a lot of people would go oh it’s all about Johnny it’s like well if the best representation of the best golf you’ve ever seen happen to have been you I think that’s that’s apt get after it but beyond that he was bold he was smart uh he was articulate but he could talk to every level you know he could get quirky he wasn’t afraid to be funny or try to be funny he wasn’t trying to be funny he just wasn’t afraid to be himself but he also wasn’t afraid to be wrong you know I go I of course yeah I go back and watch all the broadcasts that I can of NBC doing the US Open more than anything to get the Cadence to get the Cadence of it you know the Cadence is is important uh to get the flow of it but yeah absolutely I I go back I played I played Pinehurst I played the 99 US Open I made the cut um middle of the pack but I remember you know the golf course then is nothing like the golf course they played in 2014 monochrom IC wall to–all grass um and 2014 was like melb toast uh so well you’re a big you’re a big rough guy so I I I was curious to pick your brain on the transformation of Pinehurst into into what it is now versus then see this is this is where again if I were sitting across from you and Andy I would say you know I think you guys I don’t know if you do it on purpose but you strawman my arguments by saying you’re a big rough guy you well know I’m not a big rough guy and Andy knows I’m not a big rough guy I’m only a rough guy in the context of testing the best players in the world and not all the time but sometime so I certainly understand the pervasive architectural bent now strongly towards minimalism I understand it and I love it uh if I were you know looking for a way to create an environment for the most fun for golfers that is it but the the challenge of Architects is to try to provide uh great playing conditions for the masses and test the best players in the world and not all golf courses are fortunate enough to have been built or on sandy soil you know unfortunately you know you have to build them on clay and in areas where it rains all the time so the rub here is how do you build a golf course that’s fun for everybody and one that will test the best players of the world nobody designed there’s been very few golf courses designed explicitly to test the very best players in the world the mystical Leo eons Ago by CB McDonald was uh PGA West was maybe Beth Page black was you may argue that Oakmont was the TPC Saw Grass was but there are very few of them mostly they’re built for the masses and so in my view it’s like how do you test the very best players in the world wide corridors with cutting down trees in my view is not the best way to test the best players in the world I I don’t mind it a lot of the time but occasionally I think you know like give for example the setup at Lancaster last week for the women was a 10 out of 10 to quote Nelly Corda there was just enough rough there where you could Escape you could get up near the green but it held you accountable for a great Drive in the Fairway and that’s intimidating and I think that’s important if Andy were sitting across from me I you know I I would say look I I understand your point of view but with the advances of the players today and the advances of the the equipment it’s much much harder to hold the best players in the world accountable and golf courses as much as we love to talk about lines of charm and angles when a guy’s hitting at nine miles in the air with spin doesn’t matter the angles are obsolete totally so so how do you hold him accountable and you know I’m not a fan of rough and I and Andy knows I’m not but he loves to straw man my argument uh and uh you know I think it’s important when we’re having a debate to steal man the other person’s argument you know so you know give the best representation of their argument and then debate it uh it’s it’s too easy on Twitter to straw man arguments and knock them down that’s why you know I I haven’t debated Andy on this I see occasionally at major championships you know he’ll always try to poke the bear and I’ll always poke the bear back so I I’ll poke you I’ll poke back on some of this right because a quick Twitter search of the word rough from your I just did this sitting here like I I have a tweet here that says just from January says that the best way the the the only way to test the very best players is with thick rough hold them accountable for inaccurate drives and very soon the best players will be the longest and straightest players right so I have trouble conflating that you said you’re not a big fan of ref with saying the bet the the the only way to test best players is is with when you say you’re a big fan of rough I think you’re strong man in the argument saying that I believe rough should be everywhere for everybody which is not the case you know I I don’t I don’t think there should be any rough at most golf courses unless they’ve been and this is not an architectural conversation as much as it is a setup conversation so you know design these golf courses minimalize Min with minimalist philosophies all you want I love them and they’re great for you and me but if you want to test the best players in the world you’re not doing it with angles first of all nobody’s good enough to chase an angle nobody nobody in the history of the game has been good enough to chase an angle so you get there more by chance than by skill so since golf at the highest level should be more about skill than by chance let’s get rid of the idea that anybody’s good enough to chase an angle nobody is nobody’s dispersion is 10 yards wide with a driver so the idea that you’re going to drive it down the left side to get an angle nobody’s going to onp purpose try to get on the left side of the Fairway at the TPC 18th hole at Saw Grass they’ll get there by accident they’ll hit it on the toe and it’ll rope around the corner and they’ll they’ll look like Heroes but they didn’t intend to do that if you watch tiger he’ll pull an iron out hit a punch draw down the right side and the middle of the green the middle of that Fairway is fine and then he’ll he can he can get over the need for the angle with his trajectory and spin so at the highest level in my view the best way to test the best players at a US Open or at the PGA you know generally they’re playing where it’s hot and it’s soft but with rough and I’m not talking about hack Out rough and again this is where people straw man my argument because they’ll assume they will out of convenience say ruff is hack Out ruff well no I didn’t say say that I don’t I don’t even know where there is hack Out rough that anybody’s played since the 1974 Us open at Wingfoot um so a bit of rough to where if you miss and I don’t know what the again I think these problems would be solved with math it’s like what penalty you want when you miss a fairway is it0 three of a shot is it 0 five or is it 6 because if we want players to hit at shorter distances you can roll the ball back which again I you know we’ll wait and see maybe that will lead to more compelling golf but organically if you want players to hit it shorter make it a penalty for hitting it in the rough and they will gravitate towards spinni your golf balls and clubs with less Moi uh they will they will do it organically so much in that I love this by the way this is fantastic but first thing I want to I want to go back on is the is the angle chasing and and and that kind of part of the conversation to say I I understand dispersions I I understand cones I understand kind of how you come up with a a strategy and a plan and I to your example on 18 at Pinehurst like the penalty can might be two shots for I’m sorry 18 at Saw Grass the penalty might be two shots for hitting in that water that changes where you aim right that that that kind of goes into the equation I’m also of the belief that the as much as I am a data guy like at professional golf at the highest level deciding on like who wins this thing is happens within a a different cone level like a different margin level and a different understanding of where your golf ball is going right when we’re overall from an average standpoint of like how to shoot the lowest score on average over the course of an entire season implementing this strategy doing this this this and this especially with current state of equipment like totally understand all of the you know before a certain one particular mathematician gets in my mentions on that I get all that but I think like I’m of the belief that I don’t know if it’s whatever not median number or whatever it is but like your best chances sometimes of creating the birdies that are required to win championships which is where it’s decided at the highest level there is a benefit at times with the right setup the right level of firmness and the greens of hitting the ball in the right spot off the te to give you the best chance to get close to a hole right it’s rare it’s rare that it happens these days with the current state of Technology because you can launch a nineiron from 170 over a bunker and hold a lot of the firus greens right like that’s to your point I I I I agree with some of it but I also think like not every shot can be solved with a math equation and I’ve just heard tiger and and Jack Nicholas the two greatest gol golfers of all time talk so much about the importance of angles and like I was extremely extremely fortunate to get to play Augustin National this year for the first time after the Masters this year and like there were some shots there that I was like I look I don’t know if I was like chasing this angle but I have put myself in a really bad spot for this and there’s times where I put myself in a really great one right and it was just like the best place to score to the Sunday pin on the 15th hole at uh Augusta was left of that pond like front left of that pond and not the right and again those are little itty bitty nuances but that’s kind of where some of the stuff can get decided on the right setups in the right you know kind of format of golf and that’s where I think I I don’t know if it’s worth just necessarily debating chasing Ang I agree with you Chris I do of course of course philosophically designing a golf course because what if as an architect your golf course is to create interest in the game if you can create some aesthetic Beauty all all the better but interest holes should be interesting so the idea of creating lines of charm well of course that’s Central to any any architect’s job but the idea that players are good enough to chase those LS lines of charm or attacking lines is I think a little misdirected they’re not that good if you give a guy the option of chasing a line with a penalty and to the left of it because again I mean this goes back to and what these players know if you give players the better angle into a whole location versus on the other side of the Fairway they have the worst angle at every single distance the worst angle on average is scores better than the one with the best angle on tour now that that that’s counterintuitive isn’t it to say it depends on the left behind a bunker yeah you drive it down the right side you’ve got 150 okay you are Adam Scott you’re 150 I drive it down the left side I’m chz Rey I’ve got 150 on a average chz reevy beats Adam Scott at every distance from a worse angle what make that make sense I don’t how do you because because and and this is great and this is what I mean about creating interest and numbers and this is why the players can can overcome designs they look at that and they’re they’re beginning to understand that and because if you get a better angle you get more aggressive let’s see what and you shorts side yourself and when you shorts side yourself you’ve made a mistake so the better angle doesn’t give you a get out of jail free card it gives you a step or two different you shouldn’t automatically be going at whole locations just because you have a better angle it gives you a step or two maybe a yard or two maybe that you could get closer to the hole so I get it how do you design interest into a golf course give these lines of charm attacking lines but how do you th that’s great for recreational golfers I just was blessed to do this golf trip last week before last I went to Pine Valley and of course you you think about where you want to drive it but man if you miss your spot at Pine Valley you’re making a 10 so do I try to chase an angle at Pine Valley hell no put me in the Fairway anywhere right left Center I’ll work it out from there so I you know I think to to I think we can merge this to say like I think you can it’s it’s not that hard to create an execution test at the highest level of professional golf right I I I think you can create a you know I would say Valhalla was an execution test right of whoever executes the right shots on this golf course hit in this Fairway hit on this scen make your putts that’s it right it’s a lot yeah it’s a lot harder to do I think Piner is is is a masterpiece I think it’s an incredible golf course and I think s it’s yes it’s rare like right that’s an extreme example though right of of combining certain elements of risk that I find super interesting in golf right if if they move the te up on three on one of the on one of the days they didn’t move up any holes at Valhalla but if they would have it would have been oh they did sorry they moved up the fourth hole and it’s just a pen your ears back and send it right and hit it near the green and find it if you move the tea up on on the third hole at Pinehurst you are going to create a shitload of intrigue in so many different ways the risk profiles of different shots they going to put the pin in a diabolical spot I promise you and it’s not all equal where you missed that ball around the green no you’re not in control of it but you have to weigh in the risk that you’re willing to take on and it might make sense hopefully if they set it up right to lay up to 100 yards to give yourself the best shot at making a four that that level of of intrigue is I think more interesting to watch harder to execute way harder to execute and and pull off especially at like an oill just to take another example of you know may up in in Upstate New York like it’s it’s not as it’s not as simple to pull off but I still find that to be the most interesting style of golf that’s why I found Lancaster to be just such an awesome test and and the way they set that up for the women was just perfect right and they had rough uh you know they had they had bunkers in rough which you know again a lot of golf course architect critics laughed about it and I thought well look okay put yourself way Flyn when you designed the golf course people were playing Hickory shafted clubs you hit it on the toe the golf was hard so if you had the same corridors for players 100 years down the road it wouldn’t be as hard it wouldn’t be as exciting it wouldn’t be as testing so you bring the corridors in and does that mean that some bunkers are in the rough which drives golf course architect nuts nuts yeah it does I just don’t think it’s the Beall end all I think you have to philosophically say what do we want to test here you know like the Masters is exactly what you’re talking about you know angles It’s All About Angles and taking risk and if a player makes a mistake the penalties is not obvious on that shot it may be a little more obvious on the next shot so there’s hell to pay later whereas a US Open to me in theory and and and look they’re they’re willing to try other avenues and I’m appreciative of that but in theory it was about intimidation execution and a lot of great Parkland type golf courses where you don’t have 50 m hour winds and you don’t have the firmest and fastest conditions so it’s like well now how do you test players and it’s like the penalty is immediate the reason I would argue that we so Revere Ben Hogan is for his US Open record amongst many other things and he was playing in the most Draconian setups in the history of the US Open that didn’t reward so much as it demanded long straight long straight driving Jack Nicholas the same way there’s never been a driver longer straighter than Jack Nicholas now Jack won six Masters too so the variety is what I think is missing in the world of architecture there’s very few Mike strandes in the world and and in the architectural world and when when anybody’s up mostly of the same mind I think you run the risk of missing something and in the same mind now is is is about minimalism in architecture and and trumpy maximalism if you want to call it that a fasio or wise cof or or re Jones but you know if you if you you know you look at the more bizarre golf courses like Tobacco Road you know and and you think where is that he took a chance you know um was it Union League is Dana fry and and and stra up and Philly he took a chance I’d like to see more of that you know the whole world’s hellbent on deforestation wide corridors I get it you know I I get it it’s beautiful and it’s the best way probably to get the whole world around uh in golf but I also like to see uh somebody come in and and not be afraid to throw paint at the canvas Frisco is going to be interesting in that regard of kind of some wider corridors but some funky angled greens that are I’m I they may shoot 2500 for all I know but I’m I’m just if the wind blows out there I’m intrigued to see how that modern modern like freshly new designed Golf Course for modern Champion uh major championship golf I’m curious uh if that’s kind of the the future of the game I I think where maybe you can call them straw man’s if if you will where we can the whole industry as a whole can end up talking past each other on some of this stuff is I I don’t currently know as much as I think about this and talk about this I do not know what the right combination is for for rough height and Fairway width like to to have a good proper test under the current equipment that they play Under we found Beth Page black Wingfoot that are narrow Fairways thick rough to be the worst the worst possible answer right of of testing accuracy off the te right and well well if I just stop there so I think you know if I were having this debate I would say and this is where math helps you would look at the dispersion cones of players today and you so and you compare it to and you wouldn’t have this accurate data but you could extrapolate the dispersion cones players in the 80s and you think well you can’t have corridors of Fairways the width that they were in the 80s because players hit it a lot straighter and shorter then so you’d have to have a little wider dispersion code so at Wingfoot nobody was able to hit 44 Fairways the the corridors were too narrow so the shortest of hitters couldn’t differentiate themselves from the longest of hitters by hitting drastically more Fairways and the rough you can’t have rough at the height that used to test players in the 70s and 80s because they’re coming in with faster Club head speeds and steeper angles so you have to have rough at a sufficient density and height where the pen Y is 6 you know that’s intimidating if Bryson Des Shambo were facing a 6 penalty for every time he missed a fairway he’s smart enough guy he would have rethought his his strategy but since he wasn’t it was I’m gonna send it I’m absolutely gonna send it I I I think philosophically that that’s worth investigating I’d like to see that we tend to see you know like Trinity force in Dallas we see that philosophy opy explored and it didn’t work there it’s a fabulous place for the members but it wasn’t a good test for the best players in the world so I I would never criticize that architecture that’s some of my favorite architecture in the world but if you were going to test the best players in the world we can’t just let them run downhill and play tennis without the Nets it’s like how are we going to test them you got to hold them accountable I I believe that Pete Dy had it right let’s scare the living [ __ ] out of okay let’s intimidate them okay now that’s not Augusta Augusta’s meant to be fun the PGA is meant to be fair the open is meant to be reverent and whatever Mother Nature gives you but to me the US Open is meant to scare the living hell out of you you know you’re supposed to lay in lay in bed awake at night worried that you’re going to shoot 90 and scared shitless about two three four holes or two three four shots the next day and it’s the person who can walk out there Steely eyed and execute uh to me I think that’s we need a bit of that not a lot of that just a bit of it suly well and I think we can com merge these two conversations here and I was trying to keep course setup and and Technology on two different paths but I think it’s it’s it’s time to at least bring that element into it right because we’ve been talking about core setups for for quite some time now and recognizing the challenge of blending all this together and coming up with a few good examples over the last several years but I would say there’s been quite a few misses as well and it’s recognizing the challenge of everything I’m asking out of this setup the scale of that in my opinion changes if you want somebody that like you just said to be lying in bed at night worried like sick about Pinehurst number two do you think they’d be more worried if they got to play a 460cc driver in a golf ball that they can be in control of or if they were playing the technology of 1999 in that tournament which one do you think would keep them more up at night about being able to execute uh on a on a fast firm and difficult Golf Course without a doubt the old equipment no doubt you’re not going to get an argument from me on that uh you know does the is the new equipment better or worse for the game well I would the game is that’s a different discussion which I I I want to explore that right I I think and I was I was planning to start the I startor interrupt you but I was planning to start the whole conversation on on technology with you of asking the question of like are you are you arguing for uh the status quo or are you arguing for for this is the best technology uh for the game of golf yeah difference yeah I I do so you know I I think technology has made the game better for recreational golfers it’s more fun for them they can’t really get better at it I you I I I haven’t looked at the data recently but they’re not better than they were 20 years ago at least the last data I saw the golfers aren’t better than they were 40 years ago but the game’s booming people love it and they love to buy things that they think make them hit it straighter or longer and if you’re in the equipment business you’d be just trying to figure out how to do that does that make the professional game better I I don’t know uh I feel like when I watch the the best I feel like it’s exciting to watch them you know it was exciting watching Roy win Wells Fargo and and and drive a bunker at 16 that nobody could believe he drove uh the bunker I think was out there at like 3:30 and he drove it over uh you can have an issue and say that’s that’s that’s no good that he doesn’t hit five IRS but materially at the highest level the game hasn’t changed um they’re hitting shorter clubs but the game is still about who hits the longest irons not long irons but the longest iron shots who hits the longest iron shots the best first and foremost the game is still about that it’s still about then who hits their irons the best it’s far less about who hits at the far this than anybody will believe you know I posted something about the average world rank of the top 10 in driving distance on the LPGA and the PGA Tour and you know again Andy Johnson tweets you know no cherry-picking and be like i’ I’d be happy to have this conversation with him don’t think I’m not loaded for bear when I come to this debate about the belief that there’s an overemphasis on driving distance and that it’s all about driving distance it’s less about driving driving distance Than People realize uh so the game is first and foremost about who hits their arms the best it is then about who hits it the longest and straightest can I backtrack into some of that a little bit though because what you just what you said there is it’s it’s still about the long who plays the longest irons the best right but at the same time the longer the ball goes the more you are moving shots out of the longer uh iron area where the most so that’s an that’s kind of a yeah you’re going to get some different itial in there but that I I think a point a lot of us are making is taking more shots out of that bucket does less to identify the best players right like the the the the major championships do that better than PGA Tour courses do like mathematically they take more shots out of 100 to 150 and put them above 200 right but I promise you Bryson’s five iron is a three iron it’s it’s a three iron 30 years ago 40 years ago it’s it’s a three iron just because it’s got a number on it that says five then matter it’s a three iron okay when he’s got a five iron out he’s hitting a three iron uh and I look I I agree when I watch I gota admit when I watch guys drive it on two at Augusta down there and they’ve got five iron or six iron in I think okay all right I I hear that side of it you know there’s certain St Andrews and Augusta there’s those two venues more than any other uh make it make it hard to defend my position they do but I think in the overall scheme of things those two golf courses and as important as they are to the world of professional golf and this is why you know again maybe you you have the debate about bifurcation professional golfers though they are such a small percentage I’ve used this analogy before you probably heard me use it but reacting to the way the professional game is played in a broad scope is like draining an Olympic siiz swimming pool because somebody spit in it uh professional golfers represent 0 3% of the golfers they don’t pay for equipment they don’t pay for green fees they don’t they’re just entertainment and if it’s entertainment everybody gripes about the idea and this is another debate I’m not I’m not incriminating or even trying to but in the world of sport where people will absolutely be enraged at the thought of somebody using performance enhancing trucks but no he minded if everybody who creates music is high on psychedelics and out of that comes genius okay give them all the mushrooms and the LSD because my God we get the greatest music we’ve ever had well that’s about entertainment okay so sport is also about entertainment and I’m not advocating for performance andany drugs uh but what I’m saying is it is about entertainment so when I see uh you know players hitting at nine miles they’re also we wouldn’t even be watching them if they weren’t hitting it straight so I don’t think we’re giving them their due when Rory steps up as he did at Wells Fargo and all anybody sees who wants to criticize the game is that he hit it nine miles I’m like well you kind of missed the point of what was going on there with Rory he wasn’t just hitting at nine miles he was hitting it so straight you couldn’t believe it and so did Bryson to Shambo off a Centerline dispersion rate at Wells uh at the US Open at wink fooot nobody was straighter than Bryson but the setup made it look weird what was going on so involved in all of this right and you can I almost think you have to go all the way back to the beginning of of what what what is what is happening as a a huge input here right I’ve I’ve read a lot of what you’ve said I’ve I’ve heard a lot of what You’ said and and I I I don’t disagree with almost anything that you just said there but I think it all comes down to a huge problem I have is just with the risk profile of gaining distance and that there seems to be little to no risk to it right and I don’t mean that quite literally like you could hurt yourself you could lose your swing you can do all these things but it’s worth the risk right I don’t know if you got a chance to listen to our Stephen joerger interview from from last week but he was a short driver that was inaccurate and he reached the conclusion that literally all he did is he went to his course and he would hit 32 drives as hard as he could three times a week and he has become above average in PGA Tour and is now one on the PJ like he’s in the top 20 in the FedEx Cup just by going to a hole and training himself to whale on the golf ball it got rid of some of his inaccuracies fting though say what tell me that’s not fascinating though I don’t find it that fascinating to be I find it fascinating in terms of the what the Technologies allowing him to do right of when he told he had that technology before and he didn’t do it I’m saying a better test of skill would come with a with equipment that would ex let’s just go back to this I don’t know what equipment time period I think is best let me preface that and I don’t you will hear me give this example probably multiple times of of Pim and Bala I don’t know if that’s best but I I want to give that example to say like the pro the risk profile of wailing on a ball like Rory did at the 16th hole at Wells Fargo is wait let’s let’s say that bunker carry was 280 with a Pim and a Bala or 330 with a 460cc in the current ball they’re two different shots two different risks that go into that right and maybe it doesn’t make the most sense to add absolutely whale on that ball and take on that risk with a bolat ball and a Pimon like it now it seems like well yeah Rory should try to do that because he can and the path to getting better on the PJ tour seems to be coming in one specific way of like the prerequisite for driving distance become stronger and stronger and stronger every single year people point to no now there’s taller players and all that out there players aren’t growing it’s just more tall players are making it on tour because they have speed because speed is so heavily rewarded it’s a cycle that we’ve been been in for quite some time that a lot of us I do honestly find concerning for for a myriad of reasons but it’s all to say like I just don’t think you should be rewarded for offc Center all this technology talk of Bryson did a test where he tested a rolled back golf ball and he’s like oh my toe hit that flew nothing like my normal ball I don’t like it at all it’s like wait wait wait I like that like I I I believe there should be emphasis on hitting the center of that club face and the talent that comes from that I don’t think the best players in the world should have their golf balls autocorrecting and going straight and not feeling that risk of putting extra speed on it right if you hand me a Pimon and a Bola right now I am going to weigh the risks of swinging this thing hard if you give me a 460cc and and a current golf ball I am going to wail on it it just that’s that’s a very general point but that’s that what drives so much of things that uh you’ve talked a lot about the athletes getting better and I don’t disagree like they are finding new ways to create speed you know with technology launch angles spin gym all that stuff speed sticks all that stuff I just think if you change the profile of what it’s like to actually hit the ball the equation to getting there changes a lot and I’d be curious to see who can run that gamut and get through that the eye of that needle well look I mean Nicholas wailed on it Watson wailed on it Johnny Miller wailed on it Seb B steros wailed on it uh the idea that players weren’t wailing on it with Woods is I I I don’t see that I I’m not saying they didn’t wh on I’m saying they are recognized as the greats right they threaded that needle they not everybody in that are ER could wail on it Jack could and create accuracy and distance like that is what’s so impressive about how Jack drove it and I can’t say the same for like I’ll just pull him as an example he’s a friend of mine like Keith Mitchell right he is a great driver of the golf ball and I don’t I I that’s just a random name I’ve pulled out to say like he you know people are just bunched in tighter with this driving because there kind of seems to be and and I’m using air quotes other the word easy it’s pretty easy to do yeah look I mean equipment’s better but it’s far from being the most important part of the game how far you hit it if it were the top 10 longest drivers on tour wouldn’t be ranked 150th in in the world on average but nine of the top 10 are of of the best players in the world are above average in accurate in distance and only one morow is the only one that’s not and he was that ever dist different in the history of the game that always been the case Sam’s need was unbelievably long Hogan was unbelievably long Palmer Jesus smoked it Nicholas smoked it Watson smoked it sevy smoked it Norman smoked it Nick price interestingly enough switched to a solid cor golf ball he was an early adopter the first of them went from being sort of average in driving distance to top tier in driving distance and what happened was he immediately became the best player in the world he picked up about three quarters of a show I guess what I’m saying to that is shouldn’t that be hard to get right like shouldn’t that be if that’s the path the so let me push back so Bryson to Shambo improved his length took a lot of risk to do it won the US Open Phil did late in his career when his his speed was decaying uh it it worked Stephen joer did it worked Podrick Harrington did it worked but there are loads of players who tried to get longer and lost their game so it does come with risks a lots lots of risk it is really cool to see a player and Steph jger by the way had nothing to lose he was struggling with his game you know struggling to stay on tour so the risk was worth it for him what’s amazing to me is that Bryson wasn’t struggling and he decided to risk it all and I think that’s really cool now did the equipment change or did he change because the parameters for the equipment were set in 2003 so you can’t have you know a faster Club face you can’t have a longer golf ball uh they took away the longer driver from Bryson and still working within all those parameters he figured out how to build speed what I’m seeing is that golf has come out of sort of the Dark Ages and it understands how to create speed and they’re getting as they get a better understanding of it and how to train yeah what’s coming down the pipe is players is coming out of college swinging 130 mph so in that regard look I I met with Mike Juan last week and you know obviously they’re rolling the golf ball back I’ve been against it I said Mike I I’m I’m happy enough to sit here and say I’ll wait and see if the game’s more compelling after the balls rolled back or if it’s better or old courses test the better play I’m happy to wait and see if if that’s true Su if it turns out to be true uh I’ll say hey man good job guys you were right I was wrong but I think the game’s headed in a good place right now it’s in a really good place right now you know there are more people playing golf golf’s booming alternative golf experiences are booming we’re all having fun doing that people you know you get to make a living sitting around talking about golf that didn’t exist 20 years ago the fried egg podcast kills it uh that PE because people are interested in golf the game’s pretty good right now and I think why change it because the game’s divisive enough in in certain are but if I was to look at from 20 and I know there was a you know a recession and all this but I if I was looking from 2010 to 2019 participation in the game was not trending well and the amount of golf courses that were closing comparing to open were not trending well Co changed a lot of that trajectory it wasn’t technology all of a sudden in 2020 that that brought all these people back to golf and yeah maybe you can argue people that were re introduced to golf or reintroduced to golf had the Big Driver heads and and the ball they went straight and they fell back in love with it right like sure you could maybe make that case I just think if it is like your Olympic pool analogy is is is apt because Mike I think Mike Clayton said it best he said you know for a lot of people the ball goes the right distance it does and for a lot of people it doesn’t go far enough and for the very ve best players the very fewest of the group it goes way too far like that’s my that’d be my stance on it as well like it’s and it’s not easy to change for everyone I think it it’s a massive massive very gray discussion there is no black and white to this discussion I I personally believe that look we don’t the game would be better off if a 12 handicap was playing a 330 yard par 4 with much less dramatic equipment than a 410 par 4 with today’s equipment just for a lot of reasons for Golf Course acreage and for the scale of the game that makes sense I just think the smaller the better honestly in almost every aspect and I just think that the biggest thing I always fall back on is that distance is relative right and like the best I I don’t want players to be punished for being longer players for being I just want that to feel earned and I want that all to be relative because I don’t think and I I’m curious your your thought on this just in a vacuum I don’t think like Rory has to hit the ball 350 for that to be an amazing and marketable skill right if a long drive from Rory I know this sounds sacriligious now but if a long drive from Rory goes 310 I think the game is way better than if it goes 350 because they just moved that te back at Wells Fargo 20 yards and he still went over that bunker in five more years if you know I know this roll back’s coming bad example but like in five more years there’s even more players in that field that can cover that thing I think it would make it would make it would be better for the game overall if that if a long drive still went 310 yards I don’t think anybody would not be amazed by that when it leaves his Club head well what if people at home hit at 250 and so they’re like well he only hits at 60 yards past me uh that’s not that amazing uh and what if in an effort to get his drive to 310 people that did hit at 250 are now hitting at 210 and they hate Golf and it’s too hard and they quit I’m not saying that is going to happen what I’m saying is The Game’s in a phenomenal place right now and the changes to me seem unwarranted but I could be wrong again and I look there’s an argument to be made if you’re G to roll it back let’s get after it roll it back more but do you run the risk of turning people off in the game who are really enjoying it you know I don’t know if my wife would have loved the game of golf as much if she couldn’t hit it but 160 or 70 yards you know nobody loves golf more than my wife I’ll come in the kitchen here sometimes and she’s you know in the kitchen doing this with a YouTube video I’m like what are you doing she’s like I’m trying to get some lag I’m like go stop it you know she got she got a mirror over here in the kitchen putting mirror and you know she can hit it if she smokes it it’ll go to1 but she always feels like it went 240 uh you know and there’s a par five at my course the 10th hole Arizona Country Club I we’ve been here more permanently for the last four years she’s party at once in four years and she’s a seven handicap and she’s parted like four times because it’s 5:30 and the third shot’s over water and if she becomes shorter and plays worse I’m not sure she’s gonna love the game I hear your points I take them and I understand them and look I’ll be the first person to applaud the game if it looks better and plays better and it’s more compelling but personally I like Simone biles being 30 feet in the air and doing crazy flips and coming down and me going not a chance in hell I could do that uh and when Rory hits shots first of all I just don’t think people properly understand he’s not there just because he hits it that far he’s there more importantly because he hits it that far and straight and that’s really hard to do Scotty Sheffer is he’s not league but uh before the PGA Championship Scotty Sheffer was leading the tour in a stat called distance from the edge of the Fairway I look at that stat a lot how how bad is your Miss there never been anybody swing a club as fast as Scotty Sheffer with a smaller Miss in the history of data collecting on the PGA tour people who lead distance from the edge of the Fairway are Jim furick and Colt nost who you know I played with Colt in the last tourent I ever played and at at the AT&T and you know he wasn’t playing well and on the last hole because we both missed the cut you know he hit a good one I was like now Colt that was the center of the face what did that feel like you know U he still gives me crap about it because you know he didn’t hit it very long but he led in distance from the edge of the Fairway because his misses were Jim Fury chz reevy the average Club head speed of players who’ve LED distance from the edge of the fairways 109 miles an hour Scotty sheffer’s up there around 118 119 miles hour that is not celebrated all he hits it you know he hits it too far like well he hits it straight otherwise you wouldn’t know his name so much of this I I still find that like that where I always come back to it being relative right is a ball that doesn’t go as far that’s still gonna be the case right and I think it it’s still I know but at what cost it’s a massive cost right and that’s that’s kind of where again why I want to start with like the status quo versus like there’s a I think there’s a difference between thinking this is the right level of technology and equipment and this is right uh as the status quo of like is it worth changing all of it I think those are two separate questions right because I think I’d be I don’t think you’re wrong for saying the St it’s not worth changing things right two there’s two separate questions you know and I I said that the USGA look I mean you it’s really hard to beat Engineers who paid to innovate you can’t beat them with engine Engineers who are paid to react so the smartest people in golf are the engineers at golf equipment companies they’re paid to innovate and so in the early 90s they came up with Innovation that really nobody had yeah ever addressed and so you know the metaphor the the hsees left the barn is there and you know we can go all the way back to the the great big Bera and say that a lot of the problems that we have right now are in overlooking what happened with the great BS Bera and then the race war the distance War Chris we all want the same thing we want a better more compelling game that everybody’s interested in you will argue one side of it Andy will argue that side of it I’m arguing the other side of it but you know we’ll see what happens you guys might well be right I might well be wrong um and if that’s the case I’ll buy you a beer and we’ll laugh about it but if everybody leaves the game in 10 years from now and we’re yawning as we’re watching Rory hit it 292 um you know that seems I I will and that seems really unlikely to me it does because I it may well be I can make a bunch of bad faith like comments like kind of more on the extreme end of it to say like all right if it mattered how the number of the driving distance it actually went from Roy mroy they’d play a heck of a lot more events in Colorado right like you would want it to go 390 instead of 340 right but like that doesn’t mean as much when you played at altitude because the whole Field’s going to hit it far right so what I’m amazed at is how far he hits it how straight he h so as he hits it farther y’all are disgusted about the distance I’m Blown Away by the fact that he can keep it on the golf course because it used to be that the dispersion rate was the great equalizer farther you hit it the Wilder you got well now as the guys have hit it even farther well now like the guys who can hit it long and straight I’m I’m even more Blown Away by them you know watch Bryson at the PGA Championship off of the first t i I felt like I was seeing like an athletic phenomenon him hit at 370 when everybody was hitting at you know most everybody was hitting at 290 and he drawn around the corner he looked like chz reevy and it went 380 I’m like come on stop it that’s a video game and and that but I I go all the way back to the the entry point of all of it is like the club you’re holding and the ball you’re holding it’s it’s not easy to do what they’re doing I don’t want to like distill it down to that but it’s a huge contributing factor to it going really far and really straight it’s offc Center misses curving back towards the center of the Fairway like imagine if if again this is like not a realistic comparison but imagine like a pitcher if they had a baseball that when they released it from a wrong point it curved in the direction that they wanted it to to correct for that you as distance is relative so is accuracy So when you say the reason he can hit a straight is because of the the the engineering of the equipment okay but relative to anybody else out there who hits it as long as Bryson nobody can hit it as straight nobody can hit it as straight as Rory again go look at the top 10 longest drivers on the PGA tour and they’re all losing their cards they’re 150th in drive so if distance is relative so is accuracy so while you love to look well not you but people love look ah nobody hits 80% of the fairways anymore or 70% of the fairways anymore but they they should I mean to me that’s an Antiquated stat it should be degrees off the center line and and if somebody told me if somebody in a way I said Rory hits at 350 on average but his degrees off center line are 2.1 okay and then you look down and I’m not beating up chz re was just in my head chz you’re a hell of a player I couldn’t touch you but if chz reevy is hitting at two 82 and his degrees off center line is 2.1 but he’s hitting 74% of the fairways and Rory is hitting 58% of the fairways there’s a belief that chz hits it straighter than Rory and he doesn’t not by a long shot if that data plays out so it’s degrees off center line that that is you know Mark Brody talks about this in his book uh every shot counts and so that I think would help frame this debate better and that’s where I I I’m I’m of the opinion personally like the the roll back whatever that’s coming proposed for 2028 for a couple years and then 2030 for everybody is 25 to 35% of the issue to me like that’s really just addressing one issue it’s like the actual carry distance that I’m talking about right whereas a bunch of the risk related stuff I think would come from a Spiner golf ball and a smaller Club head would would change the willingness to to do all those things and that’s a lot more complicated and a lot more difficult I think where I always come back to and this was in the 2022 distance report from the RNA and usgaa like it just kind of comes back to this line of they believe however that any further significant increases in hitting distance at the highest level are undesirable whether these increases in distance emanate from advancing Equipment Technology greater athleticism improved player coaching Golf Course conditioning or a combination of these factors they will have an impact seriously reducing the challenge of the game that line covers off a lot of it and I think we’re a specific example that we’re about to see at the at next week’s Us open is the 16th hole and again I went back and watched 1999 and like Tiger Woods hit a four iron into that hole and there will be guys hitting driver wedge I’m guessing into the 16th hole maybe nine irons in I don’t depends on what the wind does whatever but a 490 to 500 I don’t know exactly The Yards they’re going to play at next week 490 to 500 yard par par 4 is going to bypass one of the things you you liked it being emphasized you thought was 528 I bet I you know some on the extreme end there’ll be eights and nine irons hit into that green right I just really struggle to come up with like tiger was still the longest in 1999 and the longest you know he was taking on know risk profile he wasn’t the most accurate blah blah blah but like he was hitting four iron into that and I don’t not saying every everyone in the field should be hitting for I’m just saying I don’t see how the game is better by bypassing all of that area all of that grass all of that Turf all that sand just through the air makes the game of golf better I think it’s just the smaller the scale the better the more intimate and you can still create such an unique challenge that the best golfer is going to get identified on a smaller footprint a more sustainable footprint and I know sustainability is a whole different animal that people love to to pick at as well but I just can’t get the argument for going all the way back and just covering all that space with uh through the air you know I it’s funny I I played the 99 US Open and uh at on the 16th hole I got in and I started looking up all the data and I think at the time I played it only two players had hit that green in regulation and I joked with the USGA ref I said why don’t you’all just make it a par three and only two less players would hit it in regulation because it was you know it converted par five to par four it played really long it played really hard it was a brutal hole the equipment changes yeah as I’ve said they’ve they’ve changed the way the game is played but when you say it diminishes the skill it’s much much harder to hit that Fairway at 350 than when tiger played it in 1999 and the risk now with the wire grass and the the scratchy areas off that Fairway it’s you run the risk if you stand up there and you’re going to try to push it out there as far as you can 350 360 and you miss it right or left you’re G to be you’re gonna have unplayable ey you get in that scratchy grass and they you know I think they’ve added some scratchy Wire Grass even more so I would say you’d be blown away by the drive and then the second shot’s not cake I mean yeah maybe someone will have a wedge in there uh but the hole will still be about who hits the longest and straightest off of the te it will still be about who hits the most accurate iron shot into the green it’ll still be about that it’ll still be about skill I don’t think it diminishes the challenges of the whole it’s just the challenges are more obviously seen at the te and then rewarded on your second shot would I like to see golf played exactly the same way it was played before I don’t know I you know I you want to roll things back to 1999 I don’t know I mean I I was blown away by Tiger would the game be better I don’t I don’t there’s no right answer to that uh you know would you would you like to see people hitting forward into the 13th hole at Augusta there are loads of people that would say that the 13th hole had less interest this year at Augusta loads of people would say well nobody was going for it people were laying up uh now you can make the argument that it puts more emphasis on hitting the driver down the left side and taking the risk on the the t-shot you know they roll the ball back and it becomes less interesting that’s a risk uh I think the game’s in pretty good spot right now but we’ll we’ll see and we’ll see on the 16th hole I bet you at the end of the week it will still prove to be one of the most difficult holes there and we’ll see players drive it in the left crap and have to chip it out whereas we didn’t see any of that in 1999 or probably comparatively speaking not not much of it well I think it you can sum this up if we can all agree like there’s not I do not I’m not going to say there’s a right answer to one of these questions but take 13 at Augusta on this is like there’s it’s two different things 1995 equipment 1995 T 2024 equipment 2024 T the sentiment is supposed to be the same right like they’re moving that te all the way back 80 yards whatever it’s gone back trying to recreate all of that like that’s that’s kind of what they’re you know they’re trying to get in the same range right of having a longer approach into that but it is two different paths right and that’s the whole that’s the thing of like where the the constant arguments I hear for oh just move the t’s back move the t’s back move the t’s back it’s like stretching the game and changing the scale at which it’s played and I don’t know if the juice is worth to squeeze on that a lot of that work’s already been done and it’s again it’s hard to I always say it’s hard to put the tooth pack toothpaste back in the tube but what I what I find troubling on all this you’ve talked a lot about accuracy on this is correlation to of distance to scoring average on the PGA tour in 1980 it was 133% and in 2017 it was 44% and the correlation of accuracy to scoring average on the PGA tour in 1980 was 53% and in 2017 it was 12% so we’ve SE those two numbers go in the complete opposite direction so of all that accuracy talk on that that that’s like what I would like to see accuracy be rewarded right give me those stats again give me those stats again again correlation of distance to scoring average on the PGA tour 1980 was 13% and then 90 was 14% 2 31% 2017 44% and the ACT 2017 2017 was 44% I’m going to give you the source here at the end of all this uh and the accuracy uh uh on the PJ tour correlation from 1980 it was 53% in 90 it was 48% 2000 it was 35% and in 2017 it was 12% and my source on that information is chamble brandle from November 3rd 2018 that’s what you tweeted yeah I I was saying I remember those D remember that um I say thank you Tiger Woods and so when I sent that tweet out because I was like wait a minute I remember that um I could see a light bulb going off for you yeah so I was for the roll back and what changed my mind was I spent a lot of I want to defend your right to be able to change your mind on this I I for those that accuse you of flip-flopping on that changing your mind with a different set of information and opinion that I I celebrate that so I’m not I want that you and I’ll change my mind again uh if if I’m proven wrong but I I thought well that is my knee-jerk reaction to uh how far the the golf balls going first of all I’d say thank you Tiger Woods because we have and I I enjoy Jeff Shackleford but you know he takes he loves to do air quotes that athletes are better uh athletes are better on the PGA tour they’re all they’re 6 foot2 and 185 pounds and built like speed swimmers and they used to look like plumbers for the most part uh they were built like me 5 foot n and 155 to 165 uh so yeah uh thank you Tiger Woods but has the game the reason I changed my opinion on this was I was like all right let’s start over let me investigate has the game changed so you go in and you start to look at what where the best players come from and they come from 175 to 225 or 175 to 250 yard approach shots that’s where they live the longest irons was that the case in Jack’s day yes it was uh empirically it was was because you you don’t have the data but empirically Jack Nicholas was the best long iron player as was Ben Hogan as was Sam sne as was Bobby Jones empirically I think you could make that argument and defend it pretty well so has the game materially changed at the highest level how do players separate themselves if for example I looked at the top 10 players in the world and they they corresponded to let’s say the top 20 in driving distance across the board I’d say what’s going on here uh but the game is still about separating yourself with iron shots it’s not as much about driving distance as people like to make it uh so you know I I came to the conclusion that the game was materially the same and accuracy of course we’re judging accuracy and in that stat when I sent it I I I would argue that stat now and say well you’re looking at accuracy through the lens of Fairways hit and not dispersion off a center line and you’re skewed that stat that I tweeted that you quoted is skewed towards an Antiquated statistic of driving accuracy driving accuracy is we’ve we’ve got better tools now to measure driving accuracy than Fairways hit which is what I was looking at there so I would if I were retweeting that now I would tweet that and say driving accuracy is an Antiquated stat and that skews that all the way across the board I don’t think the game’s materially changed I think it’s changed for the better I think recreational golfers have more fun people send me messages non-stop about equipment they’re buying what I should what I should get two three of my friends you know I am just not an equipment geek at all but my friends are and uh and they’re they’re lit up about this game so I don’t think the game’s materially changed Jack Nicholas was the longest straightest driver in 1980 who have the longest straightest drivers been over the last 15 years Dustin Johnson Bubba Watson Roy Ma Ro John ROM Bryson Des Shambo they win the most tournaments and I think yeah we can we can this is where we can get ourselves right back in the rabbit hole of like well if it doesn’t go as far they could still be the longest and straightest right like by the way how I ask you how do you dig up old tweets that fast I I came you know I know you do your research I got a Google docum no no no no I I love it because I’m always trying to and I I don’t have a I don’t have that app on my phone that allows me to dig old tweets I you just you could just type like I could type Ru from chamble brandle it’ll be every time you’ve mentioned the word Ru uh uh in there so good again I’ll say this like you you you can change your opinion on things I think that’s that’s kind of what’s not celebrated in sports Media or in media in general of like oh look at he’s flip-flopping on this it’s like well no I mean hey there’s I was anti-rollback when we started no lay up I thought it was the dumbest thing ever I was like I hit a far this is amazing incredible what made you change your mind understanding what was being given up with with the drives going farther and understanding the Intrigue that comes from longer iron shots and dispersions and the risk of hitting dropping a six iron in close to a hole versus dropping a wedge in close to a hole and just seeing a lot more professional golf kind of get I would say homogenized in terms of kind of just being seeing so many wedges and so many short iron shots I find those to be the least interesting shots um it’s really sometimes when the setup is great on those and the risk is really good on the short par 3es and you know the PIN with the bunkers and sometimes it’s really intriguing like that’s not saying all short iron shots are not but uh just finding like the best player like a better understanding of the best players are going to separate themselves on that 200 yard iron shot and wanting more of those trending be more in this direction so so that’s where you know your Evolution Springs from mine Springs from when I watch players and I realize that they have a completely different understanding in and of where power comes from I celebrate that I don’t look at it as the equipment nobody in 1999 was talking about using the ground or left pelvic tilt or right side Bend nobody those those terms were unknown to the World of Golf uh but now when I see you know somebody uh get deep into their right hip get their right leg straightening it lift their left heel get left uh left uh pelvic tilt moved diagonally and laterally into the ground I’m like man that’s cool that’s this is it’s turned golf into a sport you know we we watch home run hitters and we think you know look at these moves now then we dive into it and so these young kids coming up they’re watching it they have a better understanding of it and the pressure plates they they know the road map to power and so the roll backs that are coming and in one sense I’m like okay you know you you guys if you you fought for it you could go you could go even more because the distance gains are going to be they’re going to be regained just like that a blink of an eye by the time they these distance gains go into effect they will be rolling it back to numbers that surpass where we’re at right now I mean the game will come back to numbers that are surpassing what we have right now so there would argue if they’re going to do it they should just do it even more uh to really validate because let’s steal man their argument say they might be right so 12 15 yards is their concession but it should be 30 or 40 you know if there let’s see if you really believe that let’s see if the game’s better let’s see if it’s more interesting because what’s going to happen is Gordon sergeant and Christo lamra here they come well there’s going to be guys that come along hit it farther than them and then guys could come along hit it farther than them because they know now what they did not know in 1999 I never went to the range in 1999 and try to hit the ball as far as I can I’m 61 years old I go to the range now I get my launch monitor out and I do speed training and I’m swinging as hard as I can I would never have done that in 1999 because if you you know an offc Center hit goes wildly inaccurate and you think God I’m turning myself into a hack I’m like I don’t this game’s about control and it’s about and now then yeah it’s about power because for the first time in the history of golf more players understand that power is not a gift it’s a skill people used to just look at Nicholas and go that’s a gift can’t get there on a Palmer gift [ __ ] power is a skill so when you look at it and you say it’s becoming less skillful and and you know Michael Juan respectfully would say it’s not less skillful power is a skill you have to develop it you have to train it and you can’t just have power without a high degree of accuracy otherwise we don’t know your name and I I’m not saying you’re wrong on any of this but you I laugh for a second there when you when you mentioned about not doing this in 99 is me as a golf fan just again I’m not projecting this on anyone else I’d be way more Curious to for you to gain distance in 1999 with that setup of of whale that with that in mind of it could go away offline like that’s that’s kind of the whole thing summed up for me I know we’ve we’ve we’ve spent a lot of time on that that’s where I you wouldn’t do it because you’d hit it on the toe and it’ go wildly offline yeah but there would be margins of gaining speed with Precision that would be The Sweet Spot yes and that that to me would identify the best players more frequently I’m not saying that golf doesn’t Iden we’re talking decimal points here percentage like parody I think that argument BS it creates bigger Stars I really honestly truly do think that like I that’s why we see major winners be the biggest names more often than on the PGA tour uh just because it’s like like dude they they take shots out of that shorter bucket and and make it longer like that’s that’s extrapolate over time that’s going to create stars is what I that’s my belief but well I think you know we’ve seen the greatest separation in the game that’s ever been in an era that is criticized for having equipment that doesn’t allow players to separate themselves you say with Scotty I’m saying with Tiger Woods um you know Tiger Woods came along and played you know arguably his best golf after the equipment supposedly made it impossible to separate yourself he won at a higher percentage after 2002 when the equipment came along with the 460 CC’s and the solicor golf ball you know and you you it made it impossible if you listen to some people that I debate to separate yourself and I’m like well the greatest separation in the history of this game is Tiger Woods and he was still doing it in 2009 and he came back hobbled and injured and old and could hardly swing the way he he did previously and he did it in 2013 he did it in 2012 and he get it again as an old hobbled man in 2018 or 2019 so in an era where people want to claim that the equipment makes it very hard to separate yourselves we’ve had the greatest separation in the history so those two don’t mesh I I what I would argue about that point is the early 2000s up to maybe when he tears up his knee I would say was a huge evolution in technology but a bit confusing like the information wasn’t still out there in the way that it is today with with the optimization of all that stuff right and I I’m just of the belief that like in your era the guys that you grew up and and kind of the guys that tiger took over so quickly were stri and even tiger was not on among this group like I view the JT and later wave of guys of like they’ve pretty much only played with technology like this their whole lives whereas Tom Layman was not hitting the golf ball in the same way that these guys are these days right and Tom was a that’s my generation yeah Scotty shler separating himself nonetheless Nelly Corda separating herself nonetheless recent yeah that’s that’s a that’s a recent development that’s been amazing to me like amazing again this is why it’s fun that’s why 19th holes are wonderful totally because you’d say that I’d say this oh we could keep I think we’re risking re I think social media is the best place to do it because people think people think you’re mad at each other and you’re angry and it’s easy to get a little too snippy on social media that you would never you know you would do it in a bar but you’d laugh about it sure totally I well I’m I’ve taken up a lot of your time I do want to I want to chat with you just at least a little bit on uh some of the progolf ongoings of uh and look I I honestly don’t have a ton of like hey what do you think’s going to happen what how’s this going to play out questions because I think we’ve exhausted that and I know I don’t know if I haven’t found anyone that really knows the answer on that even people that are involved in the process but I I I’m curious to pick your brain because you’ve been completely unafraid it seems like to me as we sit here of any kind of backlash for any of your stances of of any of the current ongoings and I have to admit I I I have the the backlash of of and the reaction of a lot of people that has come towards us has I wouldn’t say muted me it just has made me less eager to continue the conversation just because I get quite fatigue of being yelled at by the same vocal minority whatever that may be but I’m just kind of curious where that comes from for you of say you know what’s your reaction to how the last couple years have gone and kind of some of the I’ve seen some of the vitriol directed in your in your way for being staunchly anti- Saudi and and continuing to point out some of the human rights abuses and and kind of the the same conversation uh you know your willingness to continue to have that same conversation I I find to be extremely interesting well I don’t know how to answer that question um I would say that I say things that I believe to be true uh and I try to I try to defend them uh because I think it’s important to defend them and and I’m willing to suffer the criticism it doesn’t bother me the criticism uh I would prefer uh debate without profanely an ad homin attacks I would prefer that I I block those people I don’t necessarily block them because I wish them any ill will I block them because I don’t want to go to social media and have my bandwidth disrupted Yeah by profane people if you can’t take the time to structure a criticism in a fair enough way uh without using profanity or ad homin and attacks then you’re not worth my time uh but if if you know I I engage with loads of people I’m sure you could check me on that on Twitter but I engage with loads of people in the last few years who who’ve criticized my stance you know mostly they’ll say well the US’s hands aren’t clean etc etc I’m like well let’s you know let’s let’s really make those comparisons let’s let’s dig in and see if we can compare apples to apples there but I think it’s important I think it’s important I I uh I don’t think golf should be taken over I don’t like the source of the money uh I think a lot of core golfers feel that way uh again face to face you cannot I don’t know that that’s as accurate a judge of the way people feel in debating you in the same way that Twitter’s not an accurate judge Twitter is too negative people tend to be more conciliatory face to face the truth is somewhere in the middle but I know that you know I I I don’t hide I walk the golf courses and I’m on the Range and I’ve had very few people come up uh and and take issue you know I’m on the set every now and then somebody will walk by the back of the set and say you know you’re an [ __ ] you know but I would say by and large you know most people are pretty darn polite and supportive of my stance uh but that that doesn’t I mean it’s nice to hear nice things but I don’t I believe what I say to be true you know um and I I don’t think it’s good for golf if the the Saudis have a a dominant say in the game of golf as it’s played here in the United States and it’s it’s I hate to give Like Oxygen to what I would consider to be some of the dumbest like conversations around this right but it’s something we’ve dealt with as well of like oh well now you’re going to be a hypocrite if they merge this and you and you cover golf if the Sodis are involved with it right and and my argument against that always is like no I’d be a hypocrite if like Saudis paid me hundreds of millions of dollars and I pretend like everything was fine if I was not free to speak my own mind on these issues I could still I think I think I don’t know I think I’m still rooting for a merger of some kind or piff investment SSG and I can still take this microphone and say like they have human rights abuses I don’t like a lot of these things that are going on I’m not going to sit here I’m not going to take I’m not taking money for them just to whitewash everything which is just a big problem I’ve had with the whole thing is just people lying through their teeth at us about why they’re doing this and whatnot when all I care about is the structure of competitive golf I’m not a PGA Tour fan a lot of we get accused of that just because we don’t like live but I’m a fan of professional golf right and if I thought that live golf tour whoever was backing at or that product was interesting in the future of the sport my support would probably be there but I don’t see that as the path and that has just been I’ve never experienced anything in my career of doing this for almost 10 years where I’ve gotten uh this much harassment for I guess just even somewhat supporting the status quo of competitive Golf and that it’s been a shock to me it’s affected me mentally at times and I was just kind of curious kind of how it’s affected you well I bet I bet first of all I don’t believe much of it because I think what you’re being attacked for would from Mostly Saudi Bots you know the Saudis have uh spent fortunes absolute fortunes to populate social media with Saudi Bots to diffuse you know like last year Saudi Bots were saying that I was fired that I was in a negotiation and I was demanding triple my salary and that NBC Executives have had it up to here with my demands I mean nothing could be further from the truth I extended a longear contract last year at the beginning of the year I had no such negotiations uh but it was just Saudi Bots trying to put into The Ether a lie and you know even you know it works dude that’s the crazy part they said about me had loads of my friends texting they said that I deleted every anti- Saudi tweet I’ve ever tweeted which was not true but like I had friends texted me like is that true and I’m like no they’re just making it up literally making it up they’re making it up that’s who these people are they’re you know they’re devious uh people I don’t think we want them in the into the EOS ecosystem of the game of golf I had loads of my friends text me they like man what’s going on I’m like Life’s good man I’m out in the backyard chipping with my wife having a glass of wine getting ready to go to the you know the US Open or wherever and they’re like so the news isn’t true I’m like are do you believe Twitter are you on Twitter you you actually believe what you read on Twitter man I hardly believe what I read I I believe what I can see and look up and it’s like I go to Twitter I’m like I don’t let’s let’s hold on let’s let me investigate but anyway the human brain real quick on that though the human brain and I’m like this on a lot of topics like if it’s not a topic I’m following religiously I can read a tweet about tennis and it could say rough and a doll you know blah blah blah is you know when streaking down a beach whatever it was and be like oh wow he did like if you read it and you’re not following it closely you just like your brain wants to think that things are true right and I think that’s what’s happened a lot that’s how they’ve used their influence to like drive a lot of the sentiment yeah and they they’re trying to shape the debate uh you know but if we get away from where the money comes from we just look at the product that they’ve put out there so you think about the the billions of dollars they’ve spent and the time and the energy and that’s the product you know I I uh I said this before you know John ROM had to think and probably does think you know the analogy to me is he had a lead role in The Godfather and now he he’s like a little Sideshow in a Vaudeville act and and that’s that’s the tradeoff for the money now I’m sure he’s sitting around going nice nice play here John well done you know you got a few hundred million dollars when you already had several hundred million dollars and you were going to make several hundred million more and you traded it for what and you know they’re out there playing music and they’re taking pictures and it’s it’s the individual com competition is is not as important as the team competition so you come to the last hole and you need a birdie to win the individual but a part to win the team are you really trying to make a birdie because if you if you Milli first yeah you take the risk you take the risk and their team loses you know there’s hell to pay so I think it’s uh you know it’s an insult to the Integrity of competition golf holes are you’re not supposed to win golf tournaments on the third hole or the fourth hole you’re meant to there’s a reason you pay Architects to build a crescendo of drama and they they they give great thought Architects to to how they want a championship or the day of a round of golf to play out and the highest drama is usually not going to be on the second or the third or the fourth hole it’s going to build and you’re meant to and you’re you’re meant to have a sequence of order in championships so set aside where the money comes from and that’s devious and demented and but let’s just look at the competition it’s laughable uh and so do I miss those players hell yeah I miss seeing John Ron play I miss Bryon Des Shambo I miss watching Brooks kep you know Brooks you know probably people think I have an antagonistic relationship with Brooks I I actually I’ve been around him very few times in my life but I promise I would like I know I would like the guy I think he’s funny I think he’s pretty damn bright uh he’s got a little a little chip on his shoulder uh all that he’s damn fun to watch play golf and I miss him I miss watching him play more often you get to te at Majors but um so yeah I’m pissed about that they’re gone I I had to I’m laughing just because of most unexpected uh you know beef I would have uh thought would come from this year is brandle versus Anthony Kim uh as he as he took on Kevin Kevin had a great comment on our live show he’s just like yeah you know Anthony kib’s tweets are like I love being a girl dad like I’m so happy for my family I’m thankful for this opportunity man [ __ ] Brando and his whole crew over there he just came after you so hard you tri to impune me with a feminine body part I I I was again I hardly have the bandwidth for that stuff I was where the hell was I I was on the set and a buddy of mine Luke Wald sent me that tweet and uh and I said I said I don’t I don’t is that is real that’s got to be a bot or something and then I went to dinner that night and I was I could give I could have given you know spit in the ocean and I’m sitting there and I got like several messages I was like is that really him and I was like good Lord what what happened to you you know uh but I thought the poor guy is being bought by the Saudis and sent to be an attack dog by Norman and Mickelson so all these guys again I feel sorry for them because they had autonomy in the game they could go where they wanted do what they wanted say what they wanted uh and they’ve lost their autonomy and uh and that’s that’s you know sad as a sports fan right I mean it’s could do the D oh you’d take the money it’s like well dude we’re just like sports fans here I I get that all the time I get you know I you know Bailey’s got uh a really good friend from college and her husband is monumentally successful and he’s a really bright guy and we were we were with them on a vacation and uh and he goes what’s your number what would you take and I was like what are you talking about he goes so’s come to you what would you take I’m like there’s not a number he goes oh [ __ ] they were going to pay you a billion dollars $300 million $400 million you wouldn’t take it and look I mean it’s a fair enough Assumption of anybody to go oh You’ take it you’d take it and I said to this guy I was like listen I I’d like to think I wouldn’t take it does money make some things easier that kind of money yeah it does God what was the Fell’s name that wrote that beautiful column about about the corruption of money on uh ancestors of magnets uh what was his name hold on oh yeah Donald Casey Donald Casey lovely guy you know did you ever read that column that he wrote I think I wrote a beautiful column about the corruption of money on future generations and uh you know I thought you know it’s easy to say I wouldn’t take the money but when you start to think about the coruption of that kind of money and the impetus for your kids to then go out and hustle to make money you know if somebody if your life was played out for you Chris and you just it was easy street all the way you’d have hustled to make no laying up you think you’d have worked your ass off to create what you guys have created I don’t know maybe you wouldn’t have and and are you doing everything you are about uh for money right now money’s nice but I’m sure it’s the purpose every morning that you wake up that drives you uh and it is me you know I wake up in the morning I don’t think about the money I think about man I I got to get to work I got [ __ ] to find out I got to work I gotta I gotta dig I gotta I gotta do this job and I love it I love it I love digging and doing research the way I used to love hitting golf balls uh you know I still could go hit golf balls all day long but I’m not getting paid to play golf next week you know and it comes down to like if does what you want out of your life can it be purchased right the money is only worth if it’s you can if if you’re going to be the happiest in a $200 million home then yeah go take the money like that’s what you need to be happy but like what are you gonna do then when you’re when you’re in that home are you just going to sit and look at your I think it’s purpose first that makes you happy or gives not happy I think purpose you know it just gives you a sense of direction and that’s interesting and I think it’s it’s fun to try to have some interest in your life that’s where the whole money thing I’d like to think I wouldn’t take it you know I said that to my wife you know because it’s a it’s an interesting debate to have with yourself uh you know because we all have I idealized ways that we view ourselves unfairly you know one of my favorite intellects in the world makes the debate that most people read history as if they would have been the victim when in reality it’s more likely they would have been the person inflicting the harm so you know we’re all prone to our biases and weaknesses but I would like to think I would turn that money down and my wife you know she looked at me you know sort of of angry and she you know she’s like you would turn it down uh but you know I part of it is you know it’s like I I read about what they’ve done to homosexuals in Saudi Arabia and it it makes my skin crawl you know I have a son who’s a homosexual I I I’ve got loads of friends who are homosexuals and what’s interesting to me though is that people assume because of my stance against Liv that I’m far left liberal and uh I’m like why would any political party seed human rights to the other other side nobody would you nobody’s going to do that and to make assumption about my political bents based upon my beliefs about human rights is I think misguided I think like most people in the world I meet I’m Center center right you know but you know certainly on social issues I would be left but on fiscal issues I would be Center center right so you know but people love to assume that I’m you know far-left liberal because I have views on human rights that uh that make me recoil at the thought of the Saudis uh having a huge stake in the game of golf yeah that’s where just I I don’t like politics to begin with I don’t think it’s I definitely don’t like mixing it with the show but at a certain point it just becomes a you almost a it has to be like right if we’re talking about what the future of this is like it’s being bought up by a government that you know like this all of a sudden it’s a geopolitical play for them like it’s it’s impossible to avoid and every single like I have Absol adored this conversation because like we we talked about issues debating like you know the actual things we’re talking about were not based on like an ideology that we were following blindly it was about you know that’s what so much drives politics is like here is what my I’ve ident myself as this ideology and I believe in everything that this party believes I fall exactly on the right or the left of every single one of these issues like find me a wellth thought person that could possibly do that right and that’s where it’s like you’re not going to find you’re going to find plenty of people that are will find every great thing about Liv and nothing bad about Liv And every flaw of the PGA Tour and nothing good about it and I really don’t think you’re gonna find anyone that won’t have critiques of the PGA Tour that is a blind PGA Tour fan but that’s just where it’s like all right there’s an ideology being like pushed here that’s not based in the facts and like that’s the that’s where things just get really really hairy and like again like I’m listening myself talk right now this is a this is a golf show what am I what am I talking about I’m not qualified to speak on this stuff I’m not I’m not an expert on this you shouldn’t listen to my opinion on it I’ve been saying the same thing you know I I go to the broadcast and I think wouldn’t it be nice just talk about golf it’s hard unfort unfortunately you can’t because the nature of the game is it’s embroiled in a political debate and so it’s important to dive in roll your sleeves up it’s like you know so because of it you know I’ve I’ve learned G you know gained a new appreciation for people who are experts in these these political conversations and you spend you know because it’s a you have a responsibility to inform yourself and over the last two three years I spent an inordinate amount of time you know on YouTube listening to Medi Hassan talk about Saudi Arabia and should the West uh deviate towards any conciliatory uh business relations with the with with Saudi Arabia interesting debate they’re experts they’re experts they know as much about that as as you do your field and I’d like to think I do in my field all right well I that’s not the cheeriest note to to end this show on I could but I could I run the risk of go of taking up four more hours of your time because I I greatly do one I appreciate you uh you uh spending so much time with us and and uh and I know listeners are going to enjoy listening to this and I I wish you luck next week with with the US Open I appreciate that thanks so much cannot wait to watch it’s gonna be fantastic I I do it’s uh you know this is it’s exciting look us opens in general are exciting Pinehurst makes it even more exciting so that be be really Jack to be part of the team next week and looking forward to it fantastic well thanks again for I will not be there no I will not be there in person of too much travel so far this year easier for me to do my stuff at homey home take thanks cheers
23 Comments
Hey Soly. Great video. When talking about challenging the best players, you should look at Merion 2013. A tight golf course not super long and no one broke par. Justin Rose won at +1. It was a great and exciting tournament.
Great interview! Thank you, Chris and NLU for presenting it. Time well spent
man his wife must have a good imagination because you know she's closing her eyes tight and either counting his money or thinking about Raul the pool boy when this simp is trying to ram her.
Hell yes! Great job from you both!!
Totally agree that there needs to be an equipment and/or ball rollback for pros. The comp is MLB! MLB players don’t use metal bats, even college players have specific bats with exit velocity ratings that are lower than HS and travel ball. Baseballs are constantly monitored and controlled through testing and humidors… using steroids, Simone Biles, Olympic pools are terrible arguments and comps. The weekend warrior can still use fancy tech equipment and still appreciate what pros are doing at the highest level. Brandel is brutal…
Didnt watch just comment, chamblee is a bell end and i will never watch anything its on, instantly turn off anything its on
Soly has to get Scott Fawcett on.
Great interview. Equipment is getting easier to hit. Off center hit ball speeds are dramatically different now compared to even 10 years ago. Guys are getting faster and not worrying about hitting the center of the face.
I really enjoyed this podcast, two thoughtful people having a conversation about interesting topics. Rare in this day and age.
Brandel is a lying fraud.
weird seeing soly be called Chris
Absolutely heartbreaking-I have been HUGE fan of NLU since the beginning-Brandel may be one of the most detrimental people for the entire game of golf-even though he may be a mouthpiece for people behind the scenes. He is not helping the current state of game. Wish y’all would have steered away from someone who has caused so much harm to the game. Thought yall were better than this
Hour 45 of more chamblee propaganda. Talk about not what anyone needs.
Big Boy Pants Golf just did an interview with Mark Lye regarding Brandel, well worth a listen
if nlu is not about money, then they don't create all these shitty merch or fake reality content to scam people's $
Brandel quoting Jordan Peterson at the end? One of his favorite intellectuals?
Have him address his flip flop on LIV/players, which has got to be humiliating. You know… cuz he was so anti-LIV and stuff. He’s an a**hat. ROTFL!
“Thank you tiger woods” this guy was the biggest tiger hater……”Bryson is a phenom” this threw more dirt on that kid than anyone…… what a charlatan
Brandel is the most well spoken and smartest guy in sports broadcasting. He can pearl clutch at times and I disagree with a few things but goddamn is he articulate, well thought and good at what he does.
Brandel is an embarrassment to golf and was unable to compete on any circuit !
Refreshing to hear a productive debate on a very complicated issue.
Brandel doesn't seem to understand you can roll the ball and equipment back and if you over do it, you can easily move the tees forward. If equipment keeps getting better and these guys are hitting it 450 yards, you make tons of historically great courses obsolete over night. Courses would run out of real estate trying to lengthen the courses to 8,500 yards.
Youth Baseball all the way through college baseball, the kids play with a metal bat. When you make the jump to the pros they give you a woke bat and then the real hitters separate themselves. Not to mention, you don't have to push the green monster back 75 feet to keep routine pop flies in play. Golf should look into doing something similar. A rolled back ball and Woods should come into play when you are looking to turn pro so we can preserve some of the historically great courses.
Brandel constantly talking over Soly is so annoying. Soly had to bail on his very first argument that tall rough is not the ONLY defense against elite golfers because Brandel wouldn’t just sit there and listen for two seconds. And for as much as Brandel wants to look at math, he doesn’t seem to understand that a ball roll back doesn’t create a linear reduction in yardage across all ball speeds. The effect of the reduction will not be nearly as dramatic for the average golfer as it is going to be for the pros. Ironically, he just counters the rollback with a straw man argument that the huge (non-existent) difference for recreational golfers will turn them off of the game.