It’s the 30th episode of the PowettPlay Podcast, your hosts Jordan Shannon and Kieran Powell are joined by special guest, Machel Hewitt, the host of the Caribbean Cricket Podcast. Machel shares his fascinating journey through the world of cricket and how it all started, revealing how his passion for the sport led to the creation of his popular podcast and how it has grown into a voice in the cricket community.
Together, we explore the state of cricket in the West Indies, diving into the successes, challenges, and the crucial aspect of communication within Cricket West Indies and does it actually take place?!
As we wrap up, we turn our attention to the future, discussing the upcoming T20 World Cup and the highly anticipated Test series against England and the recent change in West Indies squad with Jason Holder being repalced. With expert analysis and lively conversation, this episode is a must-listen for cricket fans and anyone interested in the vibrant world of Caribbean cricket.
Tune in for an engaging discussion that covers the past, present, and future of cricket in the West Indies, only on the PowettPlay Podcast!
hello everybody and welcome to episode 30 of the power play podcast I’m your host Jordan Shannon and as always I’m joined by KY Powell but today we have a special guest we are joined by mshal HT and how are you mhall I’m doing very good thank you and uh thanks for having me on no it’s a pleasure m is part of the well he’s the the post of the Caribbean Cricket podcast um which has been going for a few years now so how did how did your love the game start um I mean I always say that I’m no different to anybody from I guess My Generation Um who was who was born in the Caribbean or even if you’re part of the diaspora which most people would say I am now um I was fortunate in that I grew up with a father who passed on the Love of the Game to me um and that doesn’t mean and the interesting thing is like people always say to me oh did you play it a lot no didn’t like recreationally yeah but I never took it seriously as a sport that I wanted to play but that almost speaks to the culture in the Caribbean that certainly when I grew up everybody was a cricket fan so it whether you played or not was almost irrelevant if if if West Indies were playing you supported West Indies um and that was seen as kind of critical to the fabric of um people of the Caribbean both within the different islands and Nations themselves as well as when we moved over to the UK people within the diaspora whether in the UK North America or or whatever it might be so um so I always say it was just part of the the oral tradition that existed um 20 30 years ago that it just got passed down that you supported the West Indies cricket team and by by extension loved Cricket yeah so you mentioned there in terms obviously it came from your father but who who was who did you look up to from perspective and who sort of inspired you in those early stages of of your cricketing career as such um so we we moved over to the UK when I was I think I was four when we came over to the UK but my parents or the family moved back to Jamaica when I was 16 so I did I did my a levels um in Jamaica and the reason why I’m using that as the segue to this story is I have the UK experience of going for the UK school system so we played Cricket at school but I wouldn’t say I had any inspiration in the in the UK system but when we got back home um Jimmy Adams went to so my dad’s a pastor and Jimmy Adams attended the church that we went to so so and at the time Jimmy was the captain he just got the captaincy of the West Indies cricket team so to me Jimmy was like a massive hero um and he was like wow the the the the captain of the West Indies cricket team comes to my church but in the Caribbean we’re like we don’t we don’t really do celebrity in the Caribbean he was just somebody who went to church if you see what I mean so so like you could stop Jimmy and just have a conversation with Jimmy and then he’d be off on a test tour uh to wherever he would be going with the with the West Indies team so I always say that we were fortunate or I was fortunate in that there was close proximity to famous cricketers if if that makes sense so when people say to me oh who are your who are the cricketers you looked up to Jimmy obviously I’m Jamaican so I’m going to say Jamaican cricketers Jimmy uh Chris gel were certainly two that were like just prevalent around at the time they like these are these are talented cricketers and they they they are from the the island that I’m from if that makes sense right fantastic so then in terms of like leading on to to your you know your career now in terms of from a um obviously being a host of the podcast where did all that start and where did where did the um you know where what was the the real stem of it um [Music] so I think I’d always had obviously i’ had an interesting Cricket so whenever the West Indies by the time I’d come back to the UK like University Etc whenever the West Indies were on tour saw in the UK I’d be there like I’d go to games I’d go and watch Etc um and then it got to about um it’s about 27 it’s about 2017 2018 and I kind of just got by that point I was writing for different sports Outlets orbe it mainly football and um I I was kind of getting a bit frustrated that there to me there wasn’t a central West Indian outlet that you could read that took all the news from all the different Islands traditionally traditionally when you talk about West Indies cricket everyone focuses on the big four so they talk about Trinidad and Tobago Barbados Guyana Jamaica obviously kieran’s on the show you won’t get Outlets focusing on cricketers from nevas or from Antiga and Barbuda per se in comparison to in comparison to the big four and even with the big four you’re only going to get the newspapers and media Outlets within those respective Nations focusing on their own cricketers and their role within the the kind of wider context of the West Indies team so I just felt at the time there’s nothing out there that draws everything in one where you can read it listen to it watch it whatever it might be and you’re just as likely to hear about Cricket in Antiga as you are to hear about Cricket in St Vincent or uh St Martin or Guyana or wherever and I it’s something that we haven’t historically done well in the Caribbean in terms of it’s probably why insularity exists within the region because we don’t bring we don’t see it as a collective hole we we Champion our own cricketers from our own Island before we look at the collective hole as as West Indies cricket so that’s what brought the notion of trying to create something you know it’s the idea that if something isn’t being done don’t complain about it do it yourself so so that’s effectively that’s effectively what led to it did you feel that you you had the the knowledge in the sort of um to be able to cover the whole broad of you know in terms of like the whole Caribbean as a whole you mentioned about the U obviously the four empowering Nations but did you feel like you could cover it enough um when we first started so initially when it started myself and santoki nagendran who’s the other co-host um at the time we thought well let’s just start by just talking about what we do know is in the news um and what that involved was obviously you’ve got the major stories which might break on like an ESPN Crick info or a crick Crick Buzz or whatever it might be we knew a few people behind the scenes not a lot um and then of course you have to troll the the the kind of newspapers of each of the islands so in Jamaica you might read the The Observer or the Gleaner in Trinidad you might read the Trinidad and Tobago News day or news Express I can’t remember what it’s called Uh Barbados Nation so we started trolling the different islands and trying to get the information from each one and doing it that way um but like I say it’s hard because it’s not like there’s a reg or back then when we started it I would say that there wasn’t a regular update of news so we when we first started we knew that it was always going to be difficult to find the news but West Indies cricket is so chaotic that we knew that something was always going to be going on I if that makes sense so regardless of whether you could find what was going on in each island the big stories were all like at the time we started it was around the time when um I think of our first episode um paard had just become captain of the West Indies uh White Bull sides and that caused huge um consternation across the whole region because various people didn’t like him and they said he shouldn’t have been so everything in I think it was a phrase that was said to me by um a former cricketer it’s politics in Cricket in our region before the cricket so when it’s politics there’s so much to go off that you’ve always got something um to talk about and then from from that starting and stuff how did you sort of how did you see start to see it grow and and how and what sort of Avenue did you go down to sort of helping that help helping the channel sort of grow as such [Music] um I think lockdown lockdown played a a huge role the pandemic played a huge role because at the time we started if if people ever go back and listen to probably the first four episodes like the tech we sound we sound like we were we were recording the episodes underwater so the tech the tech has improved significantly from them but we always felt that we were talking about things that mattered from the jump from the get-go we knew that we were talking about things that mattered we we gambled and believed that there was enough of a diaspora within the UK and particularly in North America that probably felt the same way we did that we don’t get the news it doesn’t come to us as easily as it does to to people in the Caribbean and there’s there’s a massive um fan base in both the UK and uh North America that wants to know what’s going on in West Indies cricket um but when the pandemic came it allowed us to record more frequently it allowed us to come up with a strategy of recording and because everybody was sitting in their houses it also meant that we could start to reach out to people because people didn’t have anything to do really yeah if you see what I mean so Kieran was one of the first to come on I can’t remember what episode it was I’m going to say maybe episode8 n something like that um yeah I think yeah Kieran was the first cricketer to come on I think or maybe it was ramares one of the two of them was first um and then once you once we had one cricketer so take Kier and then take San once you then have one or two and then you’re starting to reach out to like some of the stakeholders Kieran played a more critical role than he even re than he probably realizes because it gave us a level of legitimacy the okay they’ve got they’ve got a a current uh uh at the time former but then obviously Kieran went on to play against West Indies uh International on the show then when people listened to that they would have realized that we weren’t just some like Cowboys aring dumb questions that have no relevance to anything like we would we we we had we studied his career we knew what type of things to be talking about right yeah so then once you get that kind of legitimacy that okay they they actually understand what they’re talking about or they know what type of questions to ask it became easier to reach out to others yeah and by and then it was about trying to reach out to stakeholders because it was it’s it’s not just about speak Cricket isn’t about just speaking to C cricketers you need to be speaking to everybody who’s involved in the game from the the pitch creators to people involved in the academy setup to the CEO to the president to to to people within the the regional boards across the different nations and and Islands so it was about trying to speak to as many people as possible to weave the stories together um and then once we’ve done enough of that and we’re probably at a stage now where we don’t have to speak to people to give it an air of legitimacy if that makes sense like I think people now see it as okay this is a concept an outlet um an Enterprise that talks on West Indies cricket with some level of Gravitas and authority and when they get someone on people know it’s going to be a very serious and good conversation if that makes sense yeah in terms of the the the early stages maybe say for instance like your first 20 to 30 when where was your listenership um good question initially because we were based in London it was the UK as it grew so let’s take it up to 2030 yeah because initially we started by just putting it on audio platforms we didn’t even realize that YouTube was an option so say like we made things up as we went along but um we YouTube it wasn’t even on YouTube we didn’t even record like the interviews in terms of visually we were just doing audio um YouTube as an option didn’t come along until about Midway through 2021 when we realized maybe we should actually put the visuals up somewhere um the audience initially started in the UK and then it was just Word of Mouth it was genuine Word of Mouth we didn’t do any major ad campaign we didn’t pay for like putting it like you know like um what you call those things like promoted adverts or anything like that just work of mouth um and then we started to realize that people were listening the Caribbean so santoki he’s from Guyana so and because I’m from Jamaica like in just through our own networks it just went through like Chinese Whispers just within those islands and then yeah and then and then eventually America um particularly essentially the USA and kind of Canada um and it was the diaspora communities within those uh Nations that really started that’s where our number one audience is even today like if when we pull the numbers it’s always the United States where the biggest listenership comes from right cool I just wanted to I wanted to ask that because of the fact that it was an overall cariban Cricket podcast is whether the audience sort of engaged from the early in the early stages or did it you know was it quite an organic growth through like you mentioned there with the word of mouth so I was just curious to see how how how it developed at those early stages really I would just adds that we have a Caribbean based listenership but it’s probably so I’ve got my own theories about this it’s probably not as strong as it should be um because I always say to people here that one of the reasons why is that radio is still King in in the Caribbean and or I believe it’s still King in the Caribbean whereas in the UK and us I think people will watch YouTube and say that’s where going to watch this show or they make they all listen to audio podcasts when I go home like people are still listening to the radio so I I don’t I don’t it doesn’t quite have the reach from in the Caribbean that probably should have in the concept of a audio podcast platform like when we pull out audio numbers it’s always from like the United States UK India Australia Etc and there’ll always be like Jamaica Guyana Trinidad but it’s never as significant um as the as the kind of like bigger um Nation so yeah there’s there’s a there’s a hurdle to overcome in that sense in terms of like you mentioned there about hurdles what what other hurdles did you feel like you have to overcome it well even even still now potentially Kieran will laugh at this one but it’s true um lack of authenticity is still a hurdle um I think no no hold on hold let me reframe that we are authentic to stakeholders so I think stakeholders know that if if I reach out to a stakeholder in the game and say can you come on the podcast we want to talk about X they will come on generally speaking as if their diary is clear enough and they they’ll see it as an authentic medium that genuinely wants to talk about West Indies cricket um but when I say lack of authenticity I think the audience back home the accent throws them still um I I think I I was joking with a friend yesterday that if I just did the show in patawa I think the show would be far more successful than it actually is because it would it would bring a greater level of authenticity I think some people still get frown by the fact they hear the accent and immediately assume well I’m English or um I didn’t grow up in the Caribbean when I when I tell people no I was born in Jamaica I went to school in Jamaica because of the accent nobody thinks that that’s a possibility so so um so I think that sometimes hinders yeah the notion of what what sounds weird but what right do you have to talk on West Indies cricket if you see what I mean yeah fair enough well I I appreciate obviously you’re going into that level you know obviously about especially in terms of how it all started and and you know some of the struggles that you’ve had and stuff there leading into in terms of West Indies cricket at the moment what sort of your take being um both in terms of obviously from the West Indies National side but also from the regional perspective over the the last s 12 months um huh okay so when you have when you talk on West Indies cricket you kind of have to I always say you have to separate things because I think sometimes people W to I think sometimes people look at the health of West Indus Cricket based on results on the pitch and I always I always say that’s the wrong way to look at it um yes it matters and if West Indies lose to someone then people say oh look at the state of West Indies cricket but and I don’t say this just because kieran’s on the show but I I sometimes feel like the the cricketers themselves are made the scapegoats for a system that isn’t doesn’t really support their development properly if that makes sense so if West Indies lose a game it’s it’s easy yeah see at all I just wanted to say it’s at all so it’s too easy when wi lose a game it’s too easy to say oh these cricketers and and how did they lose again and so on and so forth so the reason I start there is because really and truly all lies always have to start with well what’s going on off the pitch um and when you’re assessing the health of West Indies cricket you have to look at what’s going on off the pitch obviously there was there’s a new president uh in the last yeah literally in the last 12 months uh Dr Kisha shallow um um was it did he get it no sorry what I’m talking about he no you know I’m trying to remember how long he’s been in it he just had I think it’s a year I could be wrong now my dates are all obscure right now I think it’s a year but we have um we have a new president now my personal view is that he is trying to take a different approach to how we how we develop some of the things within the region um but the the the problem that he will have and probably any West Indies president will have and cric West Indies as a whole cric West Indies unfortunately as a as a kind of organization I have to pick my words carefully here isn’t fit for purpose okay that’s not me saying that Kish shallow isn’t fit for purpose that’s not the point I’m trying to make but the structure of Cricket West Indies when you properly dive into it it doesn’t really make a lot of sense how it how it how it runs as a structure in terms of one cent private organization with two um directors from each of the associate um Cricket associations across the region and it just means that whenever you’re trying to move the cricket forward you’re beholden to all of the directors agreeing with the vision and agreeing that this is the way forward to improve West Indies cricket and you you can have a situation within the region just take something as an example like make up a example where the lewood islands Cricket Association might say we want to do X Winwood Islands say we don’t want it to go that way and then Trinidad say yeah we agree with leid Islands but Barbados is saying no we agree would like from or just immediately from the jump it’s a it’s a it’s a complex web that I don’t think other cricket boards international cricket boards have that same kind of um barrier to develop Vel M where and that’s why I used that phrase earlier on where you’re having to play politics before Cricket you’re you’re thinking about the political machinations and whose back you have to scratch in this particular Island and which man on that board that you have to try and get on with because if you don’t get on with him then he’s probably going to go to his friend and then this can’t happen and so on and so forth so when you just using that as a mosm of what I’m talking about how are cricketers supposed to develop in that system because actually they’re probably they should be at the Forefront of all the decisions but they’re probably the’re probably the last thing in the actual decision making because you have to get past all of the the board machinations first before you can actually have a tangible impact on the cricketers and their development I think um just just to jump on that point a bit there mash um I don’t think people understand the complexities of how deep the politics in West indes Cricket run because as you said like it’s it’s this island against that island but it even goes it’s it’s deep rooted into even the club system so depending on what island you’re from if you play for a certain Club then you have a chance or a greater chance of making that Island’s team and then if you went to a certain school or you’re friends with certain people within certain teams then you have a greater chance of moving on etc etc so the politics in West indes cricket and then as we discussed with Faz last last week with that seminar that they had which is now getting politicians involved into West Indies cricket which is a different complexity and a different level of politic on a whole because you know certain nations are going to want to have a bigger say or bigger swear because they feel as though that they are more of a traditional cricketing Nation or they invest more or they get more tourists or whatever the case is um throughout a series so that we should be in number one destination as opposed to West Indies cricket being front and foremost in the overall strategic plan which they never is our well let me not say there’s never a strategic plan but it’s never executed because we can’t agree to all go down the same path for any one set period of time and that’s that’s the main issue with West indes Cricket I mean if you can create a strategic plan where you say okay in the next two years we want to improve the infrastructure throughout the region so each country is going to have Basics indoor facilities where players can train whether it be day or night um access to more high level qualified coaches um obviously there’s a shortage of high level qualified coaches in the in the Caribbean at the moment so you you can’t necessarily say a player is going to have 10 Lev three coaches available to him 10 level two coaches available to him where in England that’s I mean a club team on a Saturday may have something like that you know access to bowling machines etc etc so just the basics for a player to to develop it’s it’s not readily available in the Caribbean and so you find that we are we will always produce Talent regardless of what the case is but we’re we’re producing Talent by Nature rather than by nurture at the moment whereas other countries around the world are creating players so you’d find us at an under 19 level having exceptional talent and people being oh my God he’s the one to watch and then in seven years time there was this guy at that under 19 workup what’s his you know that kind of effect kind of thing whereas other countries you’d be like this guy was an okay player at under 19 but my God look at the quality of an international player that he’s become for his country because of them continually to progress and develop and play enough Cricket which is something in the Caribbean you you can’t develop players playing Seven first class games a year in a region that has 330 days of sunshine that doesn’t make any sense you playing 10 super 50 games a year look and then we’re going to say that funding is an issue when you have people buying and building and investing into sports through so many sports investment funds around the world and the us being 40 minutes away from Jamaica and in general two hours away from pretty much most Caribbean islands there’s access to funding everywhere so like it’s it’s just putting the right people in the right places and you know it’s time for us to stop making excuses because West indes Cricket is something that you know most people around the world hold near and de to the like it’s obviously something I’m very passionate about it’s given me the opportunity to see the world meet lots of people meet my beautiful wife so I mean it’s given me everything that I have um from that standpoint and so I think that the people in charge of West Indies cricket owe it not even to themselves anymore like forget what they want and as as a collective as a as a region we need to we need to do better in terms of coming together and not thinking about I need x amount of players from from my island or my team or my friends in the team we just need to see West Indies cricked doing well yeah yeah 100% agree K I just wanted to quickly ask you then you were saying about you know speak speak to some of the lads who who’ve just featured in the under 19 World Cup and and their development now and you mentioned there obviously the limited amount of game time that they’ll probably have over the next 12 months where would you look what would you look to do if you was them or if you was to give them advice now in terms of to try and further their career would you have to would you looking to advise them outside of the Caribbean then really 100% they have to come to England and play Club Cricket continue to Horn your skills continue to get um better because I think what a lots of young players don’t seem to appreciate these days is the value of the hard Graft in the early stage of of your career um obviously because T20 has become so prevalent and everyone’s looking at I can be a multi-millionaire etc etc all of that will happen on the basis of a good foundation as a cricketer so once you come you play Club Cricket Ian you’re talking about 19 18 16 17 year olds you come and you play two three four years of Club Cricket where you every weekend you’re on the grind you’re playing um in different conditions swinging balls um at the end of the season the ball starts to spin um it’s cold it’s wet you know you’re uncomfortable you’re away from home so you have a lot of different things to do you’re the pr Club so you’re expect to perform so you can’t just play freely as as You’ like and get out recklessly so it teaches you that professionalism um it actually provides you maybe a better breathing ground than what is available in the Kiron at the moment and with with first class teams pretty much not many teams are going to be bringing in an influx of 16 17 18 19 year olds every season anyway because it’s still professional sport um and everyone wants to win everyone wants to compete and everyone wants to produce players that go on to the other level so it takes a while for players to develop and so there are very few spots ever really available in any professional setup um especially for younger players coming in you have to be exceptionally talented you look at someone like a a Joel Andrew for example the whole world knew he was going to play for the Le it doesn’t matter who had to sit you know he was going to come straight in because of his talent and we want to continue to Aid his development as a player and as a person um so I think it’s just for players to understand that because I mean there’s as I said not enough first class cricket being played anyway if if for example the season were long and it were double round see you’re playing 14 first class games then that provides an opportunity for some of these guys to get games throughout the season because you can say I’m going to work this guy in with a few senior players you know like here and there so you know this senior player say to him okay look you’re going to miss this match because we want to continue to develop our youngsters as well um and provide them a pathway so that when you’re gone they’ve had 10 15 games experiened over a 2 three year period so that they’re not coming in green and they they sort of have a feel for the environment it’s not something new to them so even though they’re young they have the adequate experience to go on and take whichever franchise forward but the lack of cricketing opportunities um coupled with the fact that teams franchises want to win doesn’t provide opportunities for for young players as it should yeah no I appreciate I wanted to ask you that question there because it’s something that I’ve been you know we discussed a little bit but also like in terms obviously what you discussed there U looking ahead obviously now in more of a positive way where M how do you sort of see the West Indies chances in the in the T20 World Cup I get a lot of stick whenever I answer this question so so well listen have we do I think we’ll win the competition no um if we get to the final I think we’ll win if we manage to get there then I think the momentum and The Vibes that would be building around the Caribbean I would give us a very good chance of winning it if we got to the final however I genuinely do not expect the side to to make it to the final for and I have to be careful because people often say when I make that statement people of to say often confuse what to me is a very kind of rational sober judgment with not wanting to support the team which is far from the truth I I want the team to do well the only reason I think that we may not make it well not only reason there’s several um one the volatility of T20 all it takes in a t 20 game is two players in out of 11 to do some nowadays to do something completely outrageous right so let’s just say let’s just say for argument sake we got to the super eights right you can’t afford to really lose many games in the Super Eight so maybe one if and even with one you might not be able to get through with losing one game now let’s just say we played inur argument saking Super Eight Super Eight all you need is someone like uh Sky to hit 100 20 of 40 balls and the game’s gone do do you see what I mean and because T20 is such a or bura to take a quick free for fre wickets for six runs the game’s done right so T20 is such a volatile game that I think nobody can call any team to win a T20 World Cup just because they look good on paper Anything Can Happen um generally speaking across the length of a tournament right that said do West Indi have a good team yes in the batting sense we we definitely do I think lots of teams would kill to have the the power of puran um Powell um hetm or Rutherford depending on which of those two play obviously Dre ramario Shepard all of them are six hitters and all of them could take a game away in a blink of an eye from the opposition if it was our day um even Johnson Charles at the Top If it’s his day he could take a game away from an opposition so from numbers one Brandon King down to numbers seven or eight depending on where a Mario bats there are game match winners in there with the bat the big question mark I have over the West Indies team is if we have the ability to restrict teams regularly um in a run Chase or say we underperformed with the bat in any given game do we have the bowling attack to win a close game that is my question question mark okay so I think our bowling attack is going to look something like alzari josei goodes MTI Akil Hussein Andre Russell ramario Shepard that’s five and maybe Roston Chase gets in there somewhere maybe I say you’re g i I would have him I would have him but I just don’t know if they’re going to be willing to drop Shay hul to get Rost and Chase in there I don’t know right also I would probably have Obed McCoy in my side but I don’t know who they’re willing to leave out to get Obed McCoy into the side so I I worry against England at Christmas and India just before England in the summer they went with a five bowler strategy I do I don’t recommend it I do not believe West Indies can win a world cup with a five bowler strategy I just don’t see us having the consistency to win it with five which is why I think Chase has to be somewhere in the side to just give you that option um and obviously he turns it the other way from what aill and GES do he gives you that option to to to to just do something different or do something else so there that’s the question mark that I I don’t I want to believe that Darren Sammy and his back room staff will be sensible enough to pick like horses for courses so this is the 11 for this team in these conditions yeah versus the 11 like when we play Afghanistan it’s in St Lucia for example so the 11 that play Afghanistan in St Lucia probably shouldn’t be the same 11 that plays Uganda in or sorry POA New Guinea in Guyana because it really should be horses for courses dependent on the nature of the pitch and what the conditions are saying will we do that I don’t know so in conclusion what I will say is this our group’s difficult I think a lot of West Indian supporters taken for granted that we have to get past Afghanistan and New Zealand which won’t be easy if we can get past Afghanistan and New Zealand and yes I’m taking papin and ug Uganda for granted but if we can if we can get past Afghanistan and New Zealand maybe momentum will be on our side but do I think the team has the wider ability to go through what would have to be what8 to 10 games to win the World Cup and be consistent not I don’t know I think that might be a bit of a stretch yeah Mash I mean just to your point I’ve been actually following you guys’ part as well and I I saw which I found quite interesting like people wondering two things which got of SLA me up side the head one is the debate about Rost and Chase and for me it’s what’s the debate what are we talking about Roston Chase should not only be in the team he should be batting at number four he should play that he should play that anchor role that Marlon Samuels because remember it’s no coin the Marlon Samuels role um but he definitely should be playing that role in my opinion I think that he bats at a higher strike rate than than she hope does um and I think that obviously his versatility in terms of being that added spinner because you know in the Caribbean conditions you’re going to need as many slow ball or slow bowling options as you possibly can have and he takes the ball a different direction from Morty and Hussein I think that that’s invaluable whereas Shay will be another keeper where you have sort of puran and Charles um playing in the 11 so that I mean you want to give yourselves as many chances or cover as many bases as possible so for me that’s why I would have Chase the starting 11 and then the other thing I saw people questioning which again was a slap upside the head was why gesm was selected and not someone else and I don’t know if people watch cricket you know if they just make comments because you look at GES Moy Bowl he takes every T20 he takes two to three wickets for 20 something runs what else do we want the man to do unless you want him to Bow four for five this man is literally our most consistent spinner in terms of like whatever situation you put him in whether it’s teams are going guns are blazing South Africa South Africa scored 190 in the last T20 he bowled four for 20 something and got three wickets what else do you want from him you know I think the one that actually stands out is ail Hussein because he seems to be so used to opening the balling that like when you ask him to ball in the middle overs now he seems to have not had much practice in the in those scenarios so it looks as though like he doesn’t know I guess what exactly he wants to achieve or how he wants to achieve it um because he’s been doing so much of that role of bowling with the new ball and understanding and crafting his skill towards that so I think that’s something that we’ll have to pay attention to but like you I think well for me personally I think if the West Indies can get to the semi-finals that would be a big um for the West IND team and for the region as well especially being in the Caribbean I mean obviously we have a very good team but the bowling is inexperienced and so I think that West Indies on more occasions than not will choose to Bow first and B themselves to get whatever score any opposition puts up because of as you said the depth and the amount of power hitting options available to the West Indies so um if if it if it it comes off I mean we have the ability to chase any score that anyone can put up and and because of the depth and length of the batting lineup it gives the batters that freedom to know that you can start going from early as well because you don’t want to be wasting balls with all that power Left Behind it’s it’s better to get bowled out than to think we could have scored extra 20 30 runs here that would have given us a buffer so I think that would sort of be the West Indies strategy and it’ be interesting to see when they play against teams you know how how they go about it when they have to bow second yeah that’s that you would assume that teams will want to bat first against the West Indies actually and put them under um wait hold on it’s that no yeah it’s it’s going to be interesting sorry it’s going to be interesting to see see what teams choose to do if they want to put West Indies under scoreboard pressure or if they dare West Indies both bers to try and Bowl them bow like sorry Bowl the team to a win it’s going to be and the problem West Indies have is that our first I mean some could argue it’s a good thing our first two games are against Papa New Guinea and Uganda so in one sense good we should win those games and the net run rate will be healthy in another sense bad because it means we don’t really get going until game three and when we get to game three it’s almost a must-win game immediately immediately but we have to play by the time we have to play New Zealand so though those two games against PNG and Uganda could either be false Dawns in that it doesn’t allow us to raise to the level of competitiveness we need to be at because the jump from that to suddenly playing New Zealand will be will be huge if if you see what I mean so if if I’m Darren Sammy I’m finding a way to make sure that the team goes in with an absolutely ruthless mindset against PNG and Uganda and none of this kind of we can play we can play in third gear and still win this match it has to be treat this as if it’s a must-win game to make sure that when it’s the time to raise the level for New Zealand and Afghanistan there’s no kind of hindrance to have to go up a few notches if that makes sense yeah I think I think West Indies will beat New Zealand you know in Trinidad so I think they’ll go the first three and I think what will actually be the bogy man is I think they’ll lose to um Afghanistan Afghanistan so I think that’s where the net run rate sort of comes into play and how that whole situation plays out but for me one I guess One X Factor that the West Indies have missed in this world cup if if s l made himself available West it would be Game Over West Indies definitely to the semi-finals because that’s four overs for 15 runs and he’s going to smash him yeah that’s exactly my point that that’s the that would have been the silver bullet for me if he had been available then I would have been confident in saying yeah we got a real good chance here but uh obviously he’s not kierum actually just before um uh Jason kuk in um I wanted to ask you because you just said we might Afghanistan will be the bogy team obviously as a current player what is it about our inability across the region to play spin well as a player who experiences it now you may say well actually I’m quite good at spin but in general across the region and particularly when we get to the international level we seem to struggle against all kinds of spin it’s not even a particular type of spin it’s not it’s not holy leg spin it’s not holy left arm right arm whatever what is our issue with Spin and particularly when we consider that at the regional level Spinners tend to dominate as well and they’re not even Spinners who at the it’s like Jim both’s good obviously but what I’m saying is then even Jimbo and um ver Samy per mol and whether goodes Etc they’re good but then when when we play What I Call average Spinners at the international level we we tend to come on Stu well first of all I’d like to say thank you for realizing that I am good against spin but um I think a lot of it goes down to the way we practice in the Caribbean and the facilities um the pitches as you know in the Caribbean aren great sometimes you see teams opening the ball in with spin so it’s it’s a situation where the ball does a lot more than it should at at certain stages of the game um and so guys feel as though that the only way to I guess Survivor get through it is hit your way to a score before you get out um which does does it does two things it it doesn’t prepare batters for international cricket because you’re batting on pitches that you never so when guys go and play international cricket and come back you hear them talking about oh my God the facilities like the pitches are so much better or the practice pitches are so much better and then you hear Bowlers talking about them not being able to get a grip on the B it’s it’s not that they’re not able to get a grip on the ball or the pitch isn’t doing as much it’s that you’ve had to practice spinning the ball so that now you come to the international level you’re just rolling it you know in the in the olden days you hear the older guys so I played Club Cricket against like almost ELO Willet type guys you know Derek par like guys that are very first leward Islanders to play for West and when they release the ball you could hear it like fizzing coming you like the amount of ribs that they’ve put on the ball so it doesn’t matter the surface it’s going to spin but guys don’t do that anymore it’s literally if you put it in front of a battle long enough it’s going to do something adverse off the pitch so as I said it doesn’t it it it creates a situation where guys don’t want to bat or trust their defenses enough or know how to maneuver the strike um well enough based on I guess the way that we practice you get to bat for 15 minutes per net still in the Caribbean you know things like that where you don’t get a chance to work on using your feet hitting the ball along the ground sweeping reverse sweeping all these different skills that are necessary and aart and prevalent in today’s game so I think that’s probably one of the main reasons um there there are host of different things that I could I guess go into um that are broader topic on why I think guys are not great against Spin and I think like a lot of it has to do with exposure as well because if if we know this is a situation for me how I think Regional Cricket should work is at the end of every season you should have sort of a camp for all the opening battles where you get the likes of a a Chris Gale a grenage a haes those guys to come and impart knowledge and work with those guys for let’s say a two we period so they continue to because you don’t know which opener is going to play for West Indies right you don’t know which middle order batter is are going to play so you have like a middle order batting camp and you have you know the chander paals the laras the saans the you name it whoever you can think of and the same thing with the Wicket Keepers The Spinners the fast Ballers okay if you think that the openers need to go to a a camp in the UK because our season doesn’t um sort of collide you send them off to the UK and you have two weeks of them playing the ball in swinging conditions you send the middle order battles to India so that they can improve on their work against Spain Etc and so you of break it down and you build it back up as a whole so then you have a wholesome entity where okay I’ve worked on these things so I know that my opening batters are going to get through the new ball my mid L batters are going to rotate the strike and then you know my my seamers last year this guy was really good at in swinging the ball but now he’s got one that goes straight on or nips away off the seam he’s gotten fitter so he’s bowling a bit faster as well you know my Spinners can ball for longer spells they can spin the ball a lot more so just different things like that that I think that need to be implemented and incorporated into into the the domestic setup that will help West Indies cre it’s interesting you mention that because obviously we’re talking about the World Cup but straight after the World Cup we go to England for the test series and we’re going to England obviously that’s the squad hasn’t been announced but you probably can’t say anything but I’ve heard that mik Lou is going um um and I just look at the squad if mall has got the pick you’re going to have a situation where you have Mall um Kurt McKenzie Alec aphanes um even throwing kav hodj there none of them have played in England before that’s a that’s a I don’t think people understand that to just turn up in England and they’re all talented in their own right but to just turn up in England and at the international level not even Club Cricket not even a team tour and suddenly be asked to adapt at the highest level to what conditions are like in England that’s and this is the one of the things I get confused about in West Indies cricket that people will cuss when they inevitably face a level of difficulty with adapting to what those conditions are like so and we have it’s not like we’ve prepped them it’s not like they’re in England right now getting ready getting ready ahead of that tour so I agree with you when you say there are things that you can do to mitigate but we don’t seemingly do them exactly when you think about it sorry not to cut you off Jord but when you think about it like these most of these guys aren’t involved in T20 um Cricket so they’re not going to be at the World Cup or anything so what exactly are they doing at home like why doesn’t the West Indies board at the very least have them in a camp preparing for an England series off of the back of what was a good test match victory in Australia in that second test match um why don’t they sort of because I’m sure West indes Cricket Board has come contacts enough to get some of the players over to come and play at least Club Cricket like even if it’s a situation where West Indies board takes on responsibility of like housing the players Etc you just want them to be in the environment playing and getting used to the conditions because as you said it’s no easy feat to just come to England and play like it takes a lot of getting used to you know from just from the standpoint of the weather like these guys won’t be used to damn gloomy it’s it’s it’s defitely not summer here yet unless unless I’m relas I’m going to the wrong place it’s not summer yet so they’re not going to be used to the weather the pitches are a lot slower the ball does a lot more you have to wait a lot longer to play certain shots um obviously the Ballers are skillful in these conditions because this these this is where they grew up and you know someone like Jimmy Anderson is going to want to go out with a bang exactly and prove a point you know so and the young guys looking to prove a point as well as to oh I should have had this opportunity for the past 3 four years what this man still playing so there are lots of different things there um that you think about and you think to yourself why are guys just at home sitting down West indes board can you at least get them into a camp start preparing them from now because the World Cup is going to go by very quickly and then it’s going to be the England series eight days after that um and it’s going to be it’s it’s going to look like a rush job yeah definitely I I want to dive in a little bit about you know about them coming over I think that U especially over here in the UK they you know the we have an EC we have plenty of ECB Premier Leagues which is obviously quite a high standard of of League cricket now these Lads could have come over soon as the as the um the four days still finished you could have had plenty of time to to get used to conditions um and be around in you know in terms of the environment you know from a bowling perspective um you know plenty of County teams around here without you know they could do some net bowling for instance I’m not saying it’s it’s a great uh you know it might not be it’s not you know a massive selling point to him but the bowling in these conditions over here they’re facing batters who no not necessarily be facing but you know similar sort of styles of of batters and I think that you know um I recently started watching the test on the Amazon series with Australia and it shows them coming over um before the ashes last season last year and the working in Forbe um and it’s all this planning and preparation and going back to you your comment before Kai about um about about facing spinning things and how they can do these camps you know we’ve spoke to Faz we spoke to to phillow U you know not last week the week before and you know every time we speak as well it’s the same things that we speak about and it’s the same I don’t want to sound drug [ __ ] but it really screams common sense you know this is not something that’s you know out of the blue and taken somewhere and completely random idea it’s just prepar it’s simple preparation really and you know I think I mentioned it a few weeks AG go I think the West got a fantastic chance of really pushing England in this test series I don’t know you know that’s just my opinion to be honest with you I think that that’s just the way I the way I see it and I might it might look stupid in in six to eight weeks time after after the series but that’s my opinion and we spoke before about um how to rejuvenate cricket West Indies as as a whole and and um you know bring back some of the the the glor is as such and to get you know to get people back on board to see success but if the people behind the scenes can’t just use the common sense then I don’t really see how the how they’re going to push on yeah um sounds no no no but it it it’s true um and I was I was was I was intrigued to hear obviously you both spoke to obviously you spoke to Faz um in the previous episode and that the Symposium which a lot of column pieces about it the two-day Symposium in Trinidad um and Tobago and it it it feels like the wrong thing to say but part of me like I was glad it happened but then there was a part of me which was like but we’ve also been here before where everyone talks and they all say the right kind of thing and then everyone leaves going yeah this now now is the time the change is coming and we’ll be here five years later still in the exact same place having not done anything so I I want to believe this time will be different but I just sometimes sometimes I despair um and actually sometimes and I don’t know if kieran’s ever interested in something like this but genuinely believe that obviously we don’t know how the landscape of cricket will be 10 years from now given the rise of short format Cricket Etc but let’s just assume all three formats still exist in 10 years time and there’s still an intern a proper International landscape I do feel that with Cricket across the Caribbean it almost needs and this is controversial because a lot of people say I shouldn’t say this but it almost needs like a generation of Administrators to leave like there’s a lot of there’s a lot of people have been in those job for a long long time that’s not controversial these people have been needing to leave a generation ago so that’s people have no clue about Cricket Administration I think that Cricket West Indies needs two arms you need the Cricket sort of things and you need the Cricket marketing or the business of cricket sort of things yeah I think that’s where that’s where it’s falling down you look at the marketing or the lack there of of Cricket West indes tell me why there are no West Indies memorabilia whether it be not just of the current players but you you speak of like a Narine a Chris Gale even a Viv Richards for people coming in from outside of the region they will snap those things up in a heartbeat you’re talking about even at at games or even before games like the obviously the touring parties it’s an opportunity to have a lunch with Richards a seminar a golf day so many different things that Cricket West Indies can put on but you know the lack of let let me not say the lack of wanting to do it maybe they just don’t know how which is unfortunate because that’s the positions that they’re in but the the the generation of cricket Administration um Personnel in the Caribbean definitely needs to needs to be long on the current group because as you said there’s some of them that have been in in these positions for 15 20 30 years and um there’s this one individual I can’t say his name or else I might get banned but I know he’s been there for x amount of years which sort of coincides with the decline of West Indies cricket is how I like to put it his tenure on the decline of West Indies cricket so um I think it’s about time that we start looking at new new people um new ideas new ways of thinking because the game the game has evolved the game has changed and and we also need to change and evolve as well 100% yeah you know I just wanted to get both both your opinions here in terms I know you mentioned there about potentially M Louis featuring and Al AES and kin hod coming over and you know their first experience and we discussed that then what what impact could it have on them in terms if it was to if it was to be a really poor Series in the fact that do is to be you know could be beaten quite comprehensively then you know the young side you know batting wise really struggle and from a confidence perspective and that then impacting you know West as you know from a test playing side of things as well do you know I’m going to answer that and then I guarantee kieran’s going to want to say something after I’ve said this so I will just say the following because Kieran actually kieran’s Testament to what I’m about to say we have a history in West Indies cricket of promoting players into the West Indies team and they’re not giving them a chance to actually know their game and cement themselves properly in the West Indies team don’t every now and again somebody actually gets a long run right to to prove whether they can hang at the international level or not but we’re more likely to give someone what four five tests you’re out and and and that’s and then you go back no one’s helping you to to kind of find out well this is why we’ve we’ve we’ve dropped you for now go away and work on this who’s going to work with you what as Kieran said earlier what level four level three coach is going to work with you to address those deficiencies that have been picked up at the international level okay so now you go back to domestic Cricket you top the Run charts you’re back again but no one ever worked with you in the in the interim how long have I got this time what three tests four tests one test series maybe I’ll get two you’re out again so we have history and I’m laughing because it’s ridiculous we have a history where you come into a team you’re not really given a chance to develop remember this is the highest level of cricket we’re talking about you’re not really given a a metric as to we’re going to keep picking you we’re gonna We believe in you you know sometimes and this is all sports sometimes a sports a sports um person needs to know I have faith in you I’m not going to drop you after one failure two failure three failure is right so this is why I worry for if if Louie goes there for example this is why I worry for the young ones when they come through because you can also look it at the flip side which is that you pick the young ones because because there’s also politics in selection of course you pick the young ones and you signal to the Caribbean this is the new way we’re going in right we’re going with the young ones now now the selectors have faith from everyone because it’s like well you know we got to give the youngsters a chance you know they’re young etc etc but has anyone actually ascertained if they’re ready for that for that opportunity you don’t just give youngsters a chance cuz they’re young have you actually ascertained where they’re at with their knowledge of the game are they ready for the jump that they’re going to have to do and also sorry I’m passion about this also there’s ways to introduce a youngster so for example if I’m introducing a youngster into international cricket Bangladesh are playing against us we’re at home against Bangladesh at the end of the year maybe that’s an easier tour to introduce a youngster too not England away that’s that’s you’re basically saying to someone sink or swim like going you’re going to England and you either sink or swim and because we’re so ridiculous don’t be surprised if one of these youngsters fails in England after three tests and then they they’re out they’re just out they’re not picked for the next test series and they’re out and they’re told to go and work on their game and I just think things like that we almost set our players up for failure and we also and this is the last thing I’m this is I’m certain kieran’s coming in now we also write our players off very quickly so I mean we we just had an no Kieran spoke about this last year we had uh what Darren Bravo top the Run score charts in super 50 didn’t get picked he was told he’s too old right we must be the only region I know in world cricket where we just write players off and say that runs don’t matter you’re too old so you can’t you can’t get in the team um so we we we don’t have a I’ve always felt that we never have a very clear strategy and approach to selection and more importantly development W within within selection um and I do you know what I’ll even throw alzari in there alzari Joseph alari Joseph is 27 now we threw him into West Indies International setup straight out of under 19 World Cup we didn’t even give him a developmental pathway we just saw he was good at under 19 level and said yep in he comes and alzari is good I’m not trying to criticize alzari at all but I often look at alzari and say how good could alzari have been if we’d actually developed him properly and basically didn’t say to him work it out as you go along in in international cricket it doesn’t you wouldn’t see that happen you wouldn’t see England play a 19yearold and just say work it out go on just just work it out on the international stage there’d be a there’d be a clear developmental process which got them ready before we just thrust them onto the main scene Kieran I’m sure you’re going to want to come well let’s let’s work backwards from the Darren Bravo is issue because you I mean on a serious on a serious footing though you’ve seen what that’s done to to him he’s not he’s not playing Cricket anymore like he’s literally St playing cricket and I don’t know if the selectors or the regional boards understand the impact that has on a region like the Caribbean where you’re losing a player that’s still performing even if it’s just domestically um at that level because we don’t have many guys that perform across both 50 over and 40 Cricket in the Caribbean um they’re a handful of that perform well in both formats of the game and for somewhere like Trinidad and Tobago that I mean Jason Muhammad was still one of their top run scorers this season they rely heavily on those two guys and so their cricke in I guess environment is going to take a huge blow um losing losing that caliber of player and so will West indes Cricket because I’m sure I guess throughout the course of a season he may offer a word of advice to a player from different islands and that may be something that triggers or helps that play in in whatever minuscule little way um and I think that as you said like it’s crazy that we we’re telling players are someone at the age of I think he’s 35 that he’s too old when Usman kaaj is 37 yeah and he going to play for Australia until he’s probably 39 at the end of the ashes next year you know you know so what what are we talking about I didn’t know that runs had an age to it I think that you you’re good enough as long as you’re scoring runs um but what do I know um I’ve only been scoring runs for the past how many years but I think I think on a on a on another um stand when you talk about the impact that I guess maybe a failed tour can have on these young players it could be it could be devastating because again back to my point where I stress that we don’t play enough Cricket in the Caribbean that naturally tells you that these guys are coming in based off of very few um matches so they don’t have experience of for example at someone like a m Lou doesn’t have experience of dealing with with failure so then if what you’ve known in your seven game professional career is success and you come to England and the ball starts doing so much more um against players of such a higher quality of standard than what you would have faced in the region how do you build yourself back up from that because you you then plunge yourself into a pit an abyss that you’ve never been into before you’ve never had to deal with anything like that before and you’ve got no one as I said in in the region that’s sort of helped you or is going to understand what you’re going through to help you out of that situation so um it gets even more difficult when you understand that the next to is South Africa and the Caribbean and it’s Angi and rabara and no and kotsy and those guys that are going to be lining up it’s it’s there’s no hiding place in international cricket and as you said Mash like you know they give they give a guy a series or two at Max but you’re not you’re not going to get 10 games and not have any returns and the team be losing and your name’s not going to be called you know so um it’s it’s difficult difficult space to be um for these young players but I guess it’s it’s a survival of the fittest kind of thing it’s it’s going to war you have to you you kill or you be killed so you have to find a way of Performing um and it’s it’s pretty much as simple as that or it’s just on to the next one unfortunately Kieran just to ask you because this this is just I guess a good followup to what you just said there so the last time you played test cricket was the Pakistan uh Series right am I right in saying that yeah and before that we had South Africa am I right yeah now if I’m not mistaken trying to remember off the top of my head you scored a 50 against South Africa in one of I think you came concussion sh got injured or something or someone got injured and you came in um and you scored a 50 and then against Pakistan okay you were low on run so what was the conversation when you did didn’t play again after that so you just scored a 50 against South Africa um having come in as concussion then had the two tests against Pakistan haven’t been picked since when you like what do they say to you I’ve always wondered what is said when someone isn’t picked because we’ve I’ve been to press conferences in the last two years where questions are put to selectors and and you’re like where’s this guy and selectors are talking like they don’t know they don’t know that they didn’t pick the guy so what conversations actually go one well I’ll give you um full sequence of events here so funnily enough that South Africa series remember that’s when they said that they’re going to try and convert sh into a test yeah yeah right correct so I was selected but I was selected on the bench and then bonna got concussed that’s it so I was on the field um as a as a sub Fielder and our coach didn’t even Phil Simmons didn’t even tell me I was um in it was um the Umpire from Trinidad Jo Wilson he’s the one that said oh so what number you batting so I’m not playing he said oh you’ve been um signed off as the concussion sub as the cussion Okay cool so I got into the I got into the dressing room now and obviously it’s literally the first Innings of the first test match has just gone right so we’re just into the second Innings you’ve just said you’re converting sh into a test opener so of coming thinking naturally okay I’m batting at three because you literally just won Innings ago l two days ago you’ve said this man is the opener so Phil Simmons comes down again doesn’t say anything to me he just looks at CH and says oh you’re batting at three so [ __ ] okay that means I’m opening then let me get my [ __ ] on I’m looking around is like is it me is it no okay well so off we go played the second test match got a 15 second Innings now play the um Pakistan series after that they was the best of the best and that’s when um oh yeah went to Sri Lanka after and they picked um Jeremy salzano the CH got hurt solo got hurt in Sri Lanka he got hit at shortly he didn’t even get a chance to B anything um so I’ll give you a full sequence of events now I think it was um Harper that was the chairman of selectus they said to me they wanted to try something that’s what I was told so like why you have to trade with me I’ve just come back in a team and trade with somebody else you have to trade with me so funnily enough now we were we went to Sri Lanka anyway because Emma’s family is out there we went to spend some time with her mom her brother Etc Solano gets hurt I am in Sri Lanka I was just playing The Best of the Best so you’re down to 14 you don’t have an opener but you have someone that just opened for you in the Test match before this in the country nothing right did they know you were in Sri Lanka I was taking food for them in the lead up to in the lead up to the match if they didn’t know it then I don’t know who they thought was bringing the food that Chef looks awward awkward recognizable no but but do you know what on a serious note because I I wouldn’t ask you to go any further um but that for me is my point though that almost tell like almost explains the point I’m trying to make which is that we don’t have the clearest we could argue we don’t have a system but we’re not very good at the communication with players as to role length um trust and this is why all these this is why we always have this familiar kind of stories that come out about communication breakdown and why certain and certain players are saying they don’t want to get picked for West Indies or or I refuse selection I’m unavailable because we don’t have good communic it’s another one of those barriers um that prevents our cricket being the best version of itself yeah yeah yeah I just obviously just just just to wrap this up I just think though that knowing obviously ukai you’re mentally strong enough to be able to sort of and resilient enough to you know to as you know as probably um you know it had an impact on you hearing that and you know he probably question a lot of uh the decision making stuff but the the young group of players that we just discussed before they might not be so they might get this you know they might get dropped after the second test or the third test before the before the series against Bangladesh and and they might get that communication or lack of communication and all of a sudden the career goes back two or three steps and and the impact that has on on on them as a whole but also on on West Indies cricket overall it’s it can have a massive impact and be really detrimental to these lad’s careers and and it is just lack of communication and and lack of um understanding about how to help them along the way and things and I just hope from my perspective and obviously spending time with with Ken and listening to him you know over the past 12 to 18 months that they start to listen to people who really know what they’re talking about who’ve got real understanding of the game and have a real care of cricket and the Caribbean Cricket overall I mean fortunately enough for me um we’ve we’ve got life outside of cricket and I’m in a position where I’m fortunate enough to be educated as well um I’m I’m currently doing my masters as you know Jordan so yeah yeah um these things are just a a hurdle in in my life’s journey um but for the younger guys that I guess don’t have I guess these same Avenues whether it be through education or whatever the case is it could be um quite I guess a distorting situation where someone is is head over heels in love with the West Indies cricket and then this they start to feel as the West Indies cricket doesn’t love it but love them back which is not the case it may be just the individuals in a position of power to make a call over your career at that point doesn’t love you back so I guess they they have to learn to understand and differentiate the two over time and and hopefully yes so just hopefully these these younger guys can just find a way to I guess differentiate the the pain cuz every every West Indian cricketer has a story yeah every West Indian cricketer can tell you about the pain of you know whatever they feel sort of cut short or opportunities that they didn’t get etc etc um and so it’s just for these younger guys to see what’s happened in the past learn from it and I guess make make good decisions on and off the field more importantly um so as to better themselves because the last thing I want to see is anyone having scaled to the Heights and let’s let’s not take it for granted playing international cricket is a privilege you know it’s not it’s not something that’s given to every and anyone you know you talk about a world of how many billions of people and you have 300 and something people that have represented the West Indies out of a world of how many billion so it’s an absolute privilege but the last thing I want to see is someone scale those Heights and then come back down to suffering or struggling throughout the rest of their life you know no I agree I agree they’re not unaffecting things you just want you just hope that you know it doesn’t have that negative impact and stuff but anyway thank you so much for joining us tonight mat it’s been really insightful and I really appreciate taking the timeout of your night to come and join us and um I wish you all the best um with your you know the Caribbean Cricket podcast and I hope everything goes you know flourishingly well with it no no worries man and um to all listening to this who if they came to it via Caribbean Crick podcast handles make sure you continue to follow uh the power play podcast go back and listen to all the episodes in fact as we were recording I just retweeted the one with f so you you should have I did actually say that you should have a whole bunch of listens just off the back of that one but um but yeah people make sure you go carry on listening to the power play podcast go back through all of their archive episodes and thank you guys for having me on much appreciate much yeah thank you so much that much appreciate cheers Kai cheers guys see you soon
