MONEY PROBLEMS? Chicago Bulls’ FULL salary cap breakdown | CHGO Bulls Podcast

The CHGO Bulls crew break down the Bulls’ salary cap situation entering the 2024 NBA offseason. How will Arturas Karnisovas and Marc Eversley navigate their tricky position as an over-the-cap team that wants to make changes, stay competitive, and remain under the luxury tax? It won’t be easy. How would a potential Zach LaVine trade impact their books? What about an extension for DeMar DeRozan? Will Patrick Williams return on the qualifying offer? And what will happen with the final year of Lonzo Ball’s contract? And how will the timing of all these decisions be a factor? Matt, Big Dave and Will analyze the numbers and all the possibilities.

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[Music] n [Music] what’s going on bulls Nation welcome in to the Cho Bulls podcast coming you live from our studios here in West Loop downtown Chicago on pack Bulls pack big day bow bawl Sports will to go God Le rocking the cores like here willor godle that’s a dope shirt I need one of those our pal producer on the controls is Joey spathis at Joey spathis Joey no seat Joey no seat Jo Joey Joey Crouch toown that’s right Crouch crouching over there like a troll lber man he’s got to make let you know keep it right more limber than I am that’s for that’s for certain you could do that man stress it out life you’ll be fine I’m I’m sore today for no reason at all uh hope everybody has had a great start to their Tuesday we’ve got a fun night on Deck we got Chicago baseball on Deck NHL draft lottery they get their first turn tonight we got to wait until until Sunday for the Bulls NBA draft lottery yes and uh they’re going to be hanging out here watching the the Hawks uh and flipping some cards doing a live show for the uh NHL draft lottery so hang out here do you know where where they’re predicted to land uh Hawks have the second highest Lottery odds for the number one overall pick behind only the San Jose Sharks I believe they are the Blackhawks have a 13 point something percent chance than a number one pick guaranteed at a top four pick because of where they finish which I believe was in the top the bottom three but you know you look back to last year I believe they actually have a higher percentage to land the number one pick than they did uh last year and what’s the deal with the NFL draft this year there’s no Bard but celebrini is very good or celebrini yes to my knowledge and I I honestly know nothing but I’m surprised they even pulled celebrini to be quite honest with you based on what I’ve heard Macklin celebrini is a is a very good Prospect not The Bard level but clearcut number one in this draft clearcut okay there it is uh so hopefully hopefully we’ll get some some good luck for a second season in a row cuz man watching watching our Hawks guys react to that number one pick I don’t think I’ve ever seen Mario a Mario lost his [ __ ] and it was great a little bit like even playing softball he’s like making diving cat nothing that one time yeah it would be like you doing that maybe someday yeah maybe when we’re talking cap baby hey may to the wheelous maybe maybe we’ll be in a similar situation next year when we’ve got a Cooper flag to uh to think about we are in the Wheelhouse just got to keep that top 10 protected pick baby uh speaking of uh Bulls draft picks incoming outgoing um we wanted to touch on all of the the nitty-gritty of what lies ahead for this Bulls off season and and the big challenge facing our tus car chovis and Mark eversley uh kind of pigging piggybacking off of a great breakdown that will wrote for allo.com that came out yesterday uh hopefully yall have had a chance to read that if not go and read it after we have this conversation today wanting to touch on things like not only where the Bulls stand with their draft Capital whose impending free agencies lie ahead on their roster from the 23 24 season salary cap figures across the NBA the Bulls cap situation the exceptions at their disposal and which directions the Bulls could go when it comes to let’s be honest I saw somebody making a comment about the thumbnail of Granda Jerry uh for today’s episode keeping this team on under the luxury tax which is we where we know they need to be correct because AK said in his season ending press conference well we got to be a top four seat in the East and then we’ll maybe pay the luxury tax which is not where they are now no they’re not nowhere close so we’re going to talk a lot of numbers we’re going to look at some sheets we’re going to look at some cap sheets uh and we’re going to get the the best the best uh goat breaking down all kinds of very difficult money decisions that lie ahead because the run it back 4.0 hypothetically as you lay out in your column whe financially does not work yeah it does not does not work so they got to figure out something else yeah I love the defense well played in this it was like the Minnesota timle wolves man took out every option you had and said no no no this preemptive attack I believe is what they call it let me explain to y’all why this won’t work yeah it was really well done uh So speaking just on draft picks they have their own this year lotteries on Sunday projected 11th uh they have a 9 half% chance to jump into the top four decent odds decent nonzero odds uh they don’t have their own second round pick this year they don’t they also don’t have their own second round pick next year and then of course as I just mentioned with the Cooper flag commentary Lottery protected 2025 first round pick that they owe to San Antonio from the Demar signing trade and then something I had completely forgotten about know what you’re going to say cuz I did too the Bulls still technically a pick coming their way from Portland completely for they sure do that one is uh Lottery protected every year until 2028 uh if it does not convey by 2028 becomes a 2028 second round pick just one sometimes seems like will get two if it doesn’t convey into a first but the Bulls only got one here that was in the Lowry Mark in for Derk Jones Jr three team signed in trade yes um but I have to say I mean the the Portland Tre Blazers are kind of in the infancy of their rebuild in the next four years can they make the playoffs possible but maybe a little bit unlikely just given how raw some of their top players are scoot Henderson Jaden sharp I wouldn’t be banking on that turning into a pick and even if they do get it it’s going to be at best number 15 so uh that is an asset they have to potentially trade though um they’ve got a couple of second round picks starting I believe in 2028 29 and 2030 that they can trade um but basically one of the interesting things here is that because they owe this pick top 10 protected to the Spurs they can’t trade their own first round picks until 2 years after that conveys so they could trade it but it would have to like the language in the trade would have to be starting two years after this pick conveys which could either be in 2027 or yeah 2027 if it Con doesn’t con if it conveys next year um basically because of the steppan rule you can’t trade picks in back-to-back years so it would have to be kicking the can down the road and that also prevents them from being able to trade more than two future first round picks at the same time um but you know I don’t think they’re in a position where they should be trading those picks but it does kind of set the groundwork for what their options are this summer you know they’ve got a lot of outgoing picks where they’ve got you know protections on the picks that they have outgoing that make it a little bit more difficult to continue to kind of throw those at players that can help them win now okay can you can you talk to me real quick about the Portland pick because you did mention that they do have an opportunity to trade that right yeah that one is tradable um you know I think teams are probably going to view that as closer to a second round pick than a first round pick cuz that basically is the question are the Blazers going to make the playoffs at any point between now and 2028 when it switches to a second rounder exactly and I think you know it probably makes sense in the west like that’s the kind of thing I would I could imagine the Bulls saying we’ll attach this one to Zack LaVine cuz it’s not going to be super valuable like I said the best it can be is 15th um that’s probably something where you know the Optics of like we got a pick to trade for Zack LV and like that looks pretty good uh you know I’m not really sure what’s going to happen with Zach there’s a world where they get stuff for him there’s a world where they have to give up to get off of him um but that’s kind of a lower to mid-tier asset that the Bulls do have in their back pocket from when AK turned the roster over initially okay so uh the you know I’m with you like I I don’t think the Bulls should be considering trading out more picks as far as their offseason to-do list is concerned let’s just hope they get themselves a solid player with their first round pick in this upcoming draft maybe they’ll get lucky and jump up uh and then prioritizing keeping their pick next year too like I seriously think that that’s where their focus should lie but just for the sake of pointing out that it is a possibility not only could they attach that Portland pick to something you also pointed out that they could trade their first round pick this year on draft night if they wanted to that is correct because of the way the protections work um and I mentioned the steppan rule which prevents you from Trading picks in multiple years in a row uh they can’t trade on draft night they could also you know make a trade with another team that’s traded their future picks out and get a pick back on draft night so that that is potentially one of the pros for not having traded D rozan or Caruso at the deadline is now you open up the opportunity to get into the draft this year with the team like you know the Lakers for example is going to be able to trade their pick on draft night whereas they could not have traded it at the trade headline so sorry go ahead bro oh okay uh so then just the next thing on uh Will’s breakdown was who they have decisions to make uh regarding free agency or possible free agency this summer now that we’ve gotten draft picks taken care of obviously we know dear the biggest and maybe first Domino to fall but you also pointed out whether or not the Bulls would feel comfortable if it was something like that 2 years 80 that was reported doing that before they know and have resolved the Zack LaVine situation they got Patrick Williams restricted maybe coming back next year on a pro ite qualifying offer uh which would be what 12 million-ish 12.9 then you got Drummond and javante unrestricted fore agency probably going to say goodbye to both of them you would assume Tory Craig has a player option on his two-year deal that he signed last summer B Team what’s going on with B team’s deal will but team’s deal is similar to Karly Jones if you guys remember this from last year where there was like MVP partial guarantees um I believe the Bulls can wave him with zero cap hit meaning effectively just cut him from the roster and him not have any money that holds on to the books beyond that if done by I believe the first day of the season and then you know there’s another one where it’s like 33% of his money is guaranteed by January 1st things like that so they can clear that off and wipe off a little bit more space but there’s also a world where they say look I mean he’s a contributor on as low a salary as we’re going to find he can shoot we’ve had him in our system like maybe it is worth it to keep him as your 14th or 15th man just because he’s going to be cheap and there’s you know a level of continuity there but do you feel like it’s worth it I mean being at 14 and I don’t understand the contract but he is coming off of eye surgery yep yep I mean it it really just depends I think you know let’s say the Bulls end up trading LaVine if they can get one player back then maybe you have a little bit more leeway to keep a guy like btim okay if they have to take two or three big salaries back in order to kind of match or the other team’s not willing to take on a certain percentage of Zach’s contract now you got to make some roster cuts and he’s probably one where you’re feeling a little bit safe doing that like javante obviously uh is a free agent this year they can resign him at the veterans minimum uh and he’d probably be a priority over btim assuming that’s the direction that they go uh I’m not sure what’s going to happen with Tory Craig I mean he’s making the veterans minimum this year there’s a world where he picks that up and continues to play for the Bulls I think there’s also a world where he says I can make the veterans minimum on a team that’s going to contend and I want to go play there so it’s possible that he stays I think it’s also possible that he leaves um so just kind of been looking at it under the assumption that he’s going to leave just because I think there’s probably more interesting options out there for him yeah he seems like he wants to I mean he could do what Derrick Jones Jr did as well and you see how he’s thriving in his decision exactly took less money yeah and then of course Henry Dr and the people’s Champion Adamas sonogo on two ways they’re on two ways their their contracts are over but uh you know it wouldn’t surprise me if they bring a dham back for sure drel has been in their system for a while I feel like that was again similar to car where they kind of elevated him at the end of the season just because it was like you know he had earned it in their eyes um but I I would be surprised if he’s back on another two-way uh Julia in the comments saying Tory Craig can walk do you think tor’s picking up that option will yeah I I would lean no I would lean he’ll have better options out there in for agency but it’s a mod contract it’s a minimum it’s a minimum so like if he does sign the minimum for another team it would it would match that maybe he gets a little bit more and you know with a exception or part of part of one which we can talk about yeah set that contct he’ll be sought after pop even after an underwhelming season like this one I think he’s still a vat that some teams would talk to the Bulls might also sorry Joey the Bulls might also say like javante jumped you in the rotation we kind of prefer him Patrick Williams is coming back like is there going to be a lot of minutes for you a power forward like they could kind of urge him out the door if they don’t want him to pick that up it’s crazy how much the failed alleyoop stuck in my mind every time we say Tory Craig now I that’s going to be the lasting image of his bull tenure if he doesn’t pick up his player option all I can think about now yeah man all I can think of that and Tori did play through injury at the end of the year he came back from a couple of longer injuries and he was not 100% so it’s possible that he’s that he’s back and playing at a higher level a little bit more productive to where he does jump javante back in the rotation but again you know assuming D rozan and Patrick Williams are back the the front Court as much as they do need help there it is it’s not like it’s not crowded yeah true true LS in the comments and league is seriously sleeping on Javon Warriors could have used him um I’m sure if you took a straw poll among Bulls fans like hey you want to see gavonte green back in the Bulls J it would probably be95 I mean maybe not that but like I would guess over 50% would say yes it’s like hey remember how we complained about having no legit power forwards and not enough bigs on this team got to bring back javante good old all foot 6’4 funny thing about that is like he is a power forward the the way he plays he has for so yes he’s undersized but like I don’t know there there’s like this frustration with the roster not having power forwards Patrick’s got to be a three javon’s too small Caruso is not a four it’s like those guys kind of all are power forwards like it or not uh and speaking of Caruso you also pointed out uh in your offseason guide that his contract uh year three which was partially guaranteed becomes fully guaranteed on June 30th uh and then also on January 6 the first day that teams can actually sign players to new contract after the you know like the new free agency rule where they like instead of doing this at midnight which is dumb let’s move it up to whatever it is 5 or 6 p.m. on June 30th but that’s just in terms of making agreements they can’t actually sign until July 6th Caruso could on July 6th sign as you pointed out a 4-year nearly $80 million extension crazy but don’t let’s let’s let’s let’s put a pin in that uh and we got to take our first ad break because when we come we come back we can dive into what the salary cap figures are luxury taxs aprons and such and where the Bulls are which you did a really great job laying out will in your column because when you start to add up these numbers you’re like does not compute does not compute so we will talk about that uh 2425 NBA season salary cap and where the Bulls would lie uh at underneath or over it should they bring back some of these characters who are impending free agents while we are sharing these words from our friends and sponsors you know what to do hit that Thumbs Up Button if you’re watching Along on YouTube maybe catching the replay on YouTube make sure you also subscribe to the csj sports YouTube channel yeah Dave who’s first today well keeping yourself trim slim and looking right mancate what you’re going to need why do I know that cuz Joey spth uses it that’s right so that’s why I know it’s all correct confirmed that baby that’s right are you ready to soak up those summer Vibes and unveil your ultimate be each bot well you’re in luck because our friends over at manscape have you covered from head to toe with the performance package 5.0 Ultra the ultimate all-in-one grooming kit is set to have you looking and feeling your best in the Summer Sun Trust manscape and unlock the confidence you need to turn heads of this season join the over 10 million men worldwide who trust manscape.com for 20% off and free shipping we use those codes Bulls b u l LS is the code let’s make summer one of your smoothest yet Embrace that summer B gos that you might have y’all and use the allinclusive performance package 5.0 it is perfect for those aiming for that crisp clean and confident look the three CS is what you going to need this sum 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PG-13 leaves the Clippers with the bulls try to kick the tires on him especially if tomorrow leaves or trade Zack oh Anthony you sweet summer child PG doesn’t want to come here PG wants to win does he does he though I mean I think people have been speculating that maybe PG is sick of the Clippers even though like he’s from the LA area uhhuh maybe just sick of the fact that Kawhi Leonard is never healthy never and especially come playoff time yeah first round they’re gone so he wants to go where to Philly where them beads Phil Philly is the one I hear the most like okay Orlando also hurt of but at least in Philly he’ll have somebody in the back court to play with you mean like James Harden Dave yes it’s exactly the same but I think the real thing here is that there’s just no way the Bulls open up enough space to be players here without yeah completely gutting their roster to where it just makes no sense to go that direction in the first place uh Anthony in the comments also asking about the whole Lonzo picking up his option and how that may or may not affect the whole career ending injury thing hold on to that thought cuz we will get to it cuz you touched on that will he uh okay so as far as the uh next season’s salary cap 141 million uh luxury tax line at 172 gosh that NBA salary cap manow baby crazy uh first apron at 179 million second apron at 190 Million numbers that Bulls fans don’t need to concern themselves with right now the luxury taags apron what’s that uh but so will you uh are under the assumption and I think most would be too that the Bulls are going to operate as an overthe cap team through this offseason um while still doing everything they can to figure out how to be an under the tax line team yeah next season um the Bulls if they do operate at above the cap below the tax would have that full mid-level exception which next season you pointed out would be nearly 13 million for that annual salary uh what’s what’s the situation with the bulls in their by annual I can’t remember whether or not they Ed it on anybody this past season cuz you can only use that every other year yeah they used it two years ago on Tristan Thompson that was last time out so they would have that again um but if it puts them over the tax they’re not going to use it right so they would use some portion of it to get up to the tax line depending on how the other roster pieces shake out um and you know this is for specifically for free agents you know they could use it to resign somebody like a Drummond who they have his early bird rights they could give a raise up to I think like $5 million $5.2 million something like that um but in all likelihood they will be able to use this full mid-level exception or or a portion of it on a free agent the way that they did last year with Javon Carter and obviously that one didn’t work out so well but the one that they used before was Alex cruso so you have potential there to get someone who can be an impact player uh but none of that is going to matter if the Bulls are so close to the luxury tax line that using any of it would put them over the tax and I think that’s kind of we’ll get to it but that’s kind of the situation that they’re in right now and as we know the Bulls have paid the luxury tax just one time in franchise history and the the reporters have asked um arturus about it multiple times and he did go into like the most detail we’ve heard from him sure in this most recent press conference he said my Approach looking at the luxury tax is that if you can prove that your team is going to be in the top four you go into the luxury tax it just makes no sense to be in the playin and you’re going to be in the luxury tax as long as I can put a team together that is going to be competing top four in the East that’s when you’ll start looking at retaining guys and going into the tax I thought it met immediately when you wrote that so how about you build a team that’s not always in the playing tournament I heard him in my ear immediately old dirty bastard I think the you know AKA did not really like he kind of had some generalizations right he kind of said we need to make some change uh there’s mutual interest in D rozan there’s mutual interest in P Patrick Williams we’re going to be aggressive like he didn’t really say anything but in this last part where he says you start to look at retaining guys and go into luxury tax if you’re competing that was interesting yeah that might have been a little bit of a a tip of his hand there I don’t know if it’s referring to Demar I don’t know if it’s referring to Andre Drummond or Patrick Williams or any of those free agents they have but at the end of the day you know they they said that they’re going to make change and I think that becomes very difficult assuming you try to bring everybody back that’s that’s the conflict here you can’t make change if you’re bringing everybody back yeah and I and I like that part here what you say this so are assuming Williams plays next season on his qualifying off which is 12.97% there are no other moves basically you got to do something if you negotiate Demar down to 30 mil annually you still asked uh you’re still going to be over the tax line with a 12-man roster with a 12-man roster that has everybody else on it and said there was going to be change so at a certain point like there has to be I’ve been saying it guys there has to be major change if there’s going to be any change and I wonder what direction that’s going to go there are a couple of options here um I think we can probably start with Lavine okay and just that you want to pull up uh a salary cap sheet that you you threw to Joey Joe would you just throw one with the cap holds too just to kind of give a sense of like where it is so uh there’s a lot of colors here a lot of numbers I think the most important part is that highlighted red box as you can see on the YouTube screen if you’re watching along with us that as it stands right now this is with cap holds and cap holds are basically salary cap placeholders that show like the most amount of money that you could pay so they don’t end up being this much but basically that one showing 40 nearly 43 for dear and Patrick starting a new contract at 29 a half which again is not clearly not happen remotely close but with that the Bulls are $42 million above the tax and that kind of uh illustrates that they are going to be in above the cap team so even if you wipe dear even if you bring back Patrick Williams at you know $13 million his qualifying offer it just becomes very difficult to like navigate anything to be real players for somebody like Paul George you’re looking at that mid level exception we talked about which is 12.9 million that’s not enough to to give you an impact Talent uh you know you could find a diamond in the rough somebody who could be really helpful but I think at the end of the day if you kind of run it back that way you’re looking at a very very similar roster if not the exact same one minus a few pieces in order to to kind kind of make those things work um so with that being said I think LaVine becomes the first Domino that the Bulls are going to try to knock over uh he’s obviously got that $43 million contract for next year he’s got three years and about $139 million left in total um and so they’re going to explore options because if you kind of remove that money or you take back some portion of that money and you’re able to move LaVine into another team’s cap space or another team is able to absorb you know and return back half of his salary that opens up a lot of space for the Bulls to where they can start to look at bringing things back um and that’s I think going to be their first order business they have have to figure out if there is a chance they can move LaVine um and if they can’t then you start to have to worry about other options um can you bring up the next one Joey the next slide please the next slide please which one was it I got to remember what I gave you continuity please barf okay so this is this one is a little bit more of like a realistic possibility so again a lot of numbers a lot of colors but you look at Zack LaVine with his 43 million you look at Demar dzan on that reported $40 million figure and then this one has Patrick at the qualifying offer exactly just under which honestly like I think there’s a good chance somebody offers him 14 16$ 18 $20 million in restricted for agency that puts some pressure on the bull a multi-year deal with that as a average annual salary yeah I would not be surprised if a team like the Pistons for example threw a $20 million offer sheet at Patrick and said what are you going to do bulls we we want a young forward to ask Ser be a tough tough but that’s part of the reason why this situation is so trying because basically until you move Zach you’re not going to even have space to bring back Patrick so um and I don’t think the Bulls are going to risk getting stuck above the tax just to you know sign everybody back that they already have in the event that they can hopefully trade LaVine I just don’t think they would risk that which is you know you mentioned the whole you know they could sign an extension for dear before even letting him reach free agency they have until June 30th to do that y but if they do that and can’t find a trade partner for Zach and they do not move off of lonzo’s money or decrease lonzo’s money and the two options you laid out and we can go over that too then the Bulls are just risking being grossly over that luxury tax line and knowing that they will not allow that to happen yeah they’re just not going to do it basically this whole thing was an explanation of why that’s just not going to happen um you know AK said there’s going to be changes and I mean what is this likelihood of them solving those other dominoes before needing to make that decision on Demar I think that’s where things get really tricky like I said you’re not going to get yourself stuck 10 12 million above the luxury tax line without first knowing that you can move LaVine because if you can’t move LaVine now you’re looking at well shoot like do we have to just let Demar walk for nothing do we have to let Williams walk for nothing do we have to attach a pick in order to move off of Zach so that we can bring back dear and Patrick just to run it back again I just I don’t think that’s a feasible or realistic outcome for a team that like I said the the Executive Vice President of basketball oper operations said what he saw was not good enough and there needs to be changes I think that’s going to the the hope for them is probably going to start with Zack LaVine but that extension deadline is coming up it’s June 30th that free agency period comes up quick it’s before before the draft or I’m sorry it’s after the draft so it’s just going to be tough to like resolve fully resolve those situations before you have to make a decision on tomar and how much you can offer him and that’s why I like when you wrote it when you in three simple words timing is critical yeah finding a new home for LaVine and determining Ball’s potential to return before it’s time to resign to roosan and Williams will be a challenge for your agency like you said July 30th it’s unlikely LV LaVine will be the primary target of any team on a Star Market other dominoes will have to fall before teams turn their sight to LaVine that poetry if if LaVine is a trade market consolation prize yes you’ve already lost yes for teams out there trying to add a quasi star or Star Talent level player and then the Bulls have to wait out to see which teams struck out on a Paul George or a whoever else you’re screwed man man your timing is but on the bright side uh books in the comments said at least thank God we got V tied down for his prime years right H oh my God buckle up for uh J Manny in the comments saying he doesn’t think they’re going to let Pat walk I mean he is their prize number four pick but man that’s if he if he signs an offer sheet somewhere that’s a tough position they creeping closer to that 20 mil figure that we’ve heard from various reports that he is looking for on a multi-year deal yeah I don’t know if it’s as likely after he you know ended this season missing a lot of games with an injury Kobe’s his best friend uh yeah that plays into it too speaking of Kobe and the comments said trade Zach to Brooklyn give us Kobe’s UNC teammate cam Johnson see if we can package something else for Claxton oh Pie in the Sky how lovely uh we got to take our second break we will come back in and then dive into those options the Bulls might explore when it comes to Lonzo ball his fourth year that he just picked up the other day uh and if that could offer at least some cap relief for AK and Everly this summer uh we will do that and uh and more talk about the Bulls cap on the other side of the break hit that like button now if you didn’t do it the first time around Big Dave chilling chilling beer always always what it do jilling and beer that’s it take a sip of that man uh cold as the Rockies oh between work social media and the choices life throws your way like luxury taxs it’s no wonder we’re more worked up Coors Light celebrates Rising above and choosing a chill mindset why not turn a rain out barbecue that’s happing now into a karaoke house party that’s right or after a tough loss settle scores with an ice cold piece offering make the choice to choose chill and then reach for Coors Light and it’s Mountain Cold refreshment cuz you know when those mountains turn blue we make it do what it do it’s as cold as the Rockies baby cores lightness cold Locker cold filter code package for a smooth the finish and when you Embrace a chill mindset it’s a good time to choose chill crack open the course light crack them shout out T got Buzz K’s light is Mountain Cold refreshment crisp and refreshing as the Colorado Rockies 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Co and promo code chgo blls to get 20% off and always every time free shipping and here comes the fine print ladies and gentlemen Lucy products are only for adults of legal age and every order is age verified warning this product contains nicotine nicotine is an addictive chemical question for you yes sir you don’t strike me as the kind of guy who likes a fruit flavored kind of thing so what is it with this that’s making you Just Vibe into it um I like a good change of pace okay I you know I I I was a smoker for many years and I think like getting a nicotine fixed when I still occasionally want one it’s like a more pleasant experience to be like oh a little Berry Citrus flavor as opposed to like tar you know when I was when I was a younger man playing a younger man’s game I was like yeah give me that tar in my lungs and now I’m like I don’t think I need that I still want a little nicotine every once in a while but okay yeah no you know like generally like fruit flavors I’m not a big fan of like fruit flavored candies and things like that but these little pouches and these Breakers they make in these fruit flavors they’re they’re delightful all right right on man glad it’s helping brother glad it’s helping got got got rid of you know the the cigarette smoke smell too nobody likes that nobody likes that at all um all right guys let’s dive back into this NBA salary cap Bulls salary cap situation let’s talk about Lonzo will you pointed out that there is maybe still this window for the designated career ending injury claw yeah and that it’s not Bulls team doctors but a what what did you you phrase it like a panel of independent doctors independent doctors so the Bulls would basically file a motion four out of five doctors believe lonzo’s career is over basically yeah I mean the Bulls would the Bulls would file for a panel of doctors and I think what makes this a challenge is that the Players Association and Lonzo have to also be on board with it the Bulls could say like you’re you’re not going to play anymore but Lonzo is going to say yeah I am I’m trying to come back like I’m making progress I’m on the court and so they’re not going to probably be able to get that money off I think with his attempted comeback it makes it difficult it’s still possible that you know they try to work around it and the Bulls are able to kind of force the issue but I’m my expectation is that if they’re going to remove Lonzo from the books it’s going to have to come via wave and stretch which has been uh talked about a little bit on the Twitter machine of late basically thank you Joe uh basically a wave in stretch allows you to pay out the remaining number of dollars over twice the remaining number of years on the contract plus one right so lonzo’s got 21 million doll over next year if they wave and stretch him it would be about a $7.1 Million Dead cap hit on this year the following year and the year after that so three more seasons with about $7 million on the books and yes that does provide some relief this year as you can see uh in this example it’s a little bit different than the article because I’m including for basically bringing back Tory C javante green and btim on the minimums uh just to fill out the roster because you know looking at uh half of a roster sheets a little bit weird right um but if you do that and you have dear at 40 million you have Patrick Williams on the qualifying offer you are still $4 million over the luxury tax so you know you could maybe find a way to dump Javon Carter or maybe you get demard dezen to take a 10 million doll pay cut now you’re in the green a little bit here in terms of not being at the tax line but you you still have a full roster and there’s no change made so even with some of that like I think a Zack LaVine trade is going to be the one area where the Bulls can shake things up but again what if the Pistons throw $20 million at Patrick Williams yeah like what do you do in that situation I mean you can’t bring can you let him walk for nothing like basically like everybody’s like well just sign and trade if a team like the Pistons who has cap space offers Patrick Williams $20 million they don’t have to work out a sign a trade they can just take him into their c space right so if if Pat takes that offer to the Bulls and the Bulls say we don’t want to match it then he can just go they don’t have to they don’t have to create room in order to match it by sending out money so I think the Bulls are in a bit of a precarious situation with that and I think again it’s going to be difficult to figure out a solution on Zack lavine’s contract before you have to resign Patrick Williams before the window to extend dear D rozan is up and do you want to let him get to unrestricted for agency do you want to pay Demar D rozan $40 million even 30 or $35 million a year just to be able to kind of run back the rest with maybe you do get like a couple of role players and a little bit of cap relief for Zack LaVine and that allows you to bring back dear at 40 million or 35 and it allows you to bring back Patrick Williams at 14 or $15 million a year instead of letting him walk for nothing you’re just running it back and we saw what happens when you run it back couple times they’re they’re not good enough to even make the playoffs and maybe maybe they they do kind of hit their stride and you know they become the best possible version of themselves they’re a first round out that’s just how it is and so again I think it kind of comes back to this idea that in order to make change you need to make major change and tinkering or moving deck chairs around is just going to result in more of the same and I think they have this window here where dear is expiring where you can kind of pivot into more of a youth movement whether that includes Kobe and IA or not um you know I haven’t really made up my mind how I feel about that but I think they should be looking at offers just because that’s again the reality of the situation it’s just a tough spot to be in and I think ultimately this D rozan situation could come to a head before they have to make a decision on LaVine or before they can find a suor for LaVine and I think that puts them in a a position of weakness where they’re not necessarily able to do they’re not even if they do want to bring Demar back they might not be able to what is it doesn’t feel like you’re saying they can operate from anything but a position of weakness in this situation they can’t control Zack they can’t control Demar you you just laid out why they might not even be able to control Patrick Williams y so operating from that weakness perspective all the time correct they’re reacting to anything and that’s why again I’ve been pushing for a rebuild I think that’s the one situation where you can take some control of jump out of it of your future and of what your team looks like and how how you’re like how you project to be in the future like I don’t think this team’s going to be very good next year if they run it back again they weren’t very good this year yeah they also won 27 out of 44 clutch games that like replicating that as dear gets to his age 35 36 season it’s just not feas wildly improbable and so you you look to trade cuso before you have to give him $20 million a year you look to move Kobe and iio if you can get a hul of draft picks you look to do a sign and trade with the rozen because that might be the only possible option here for you to get something back rather than just letting him walk for nothing or or seeing what happens with v you you end up overpaying him to for the rights to keep him and and remain competitive only for him to decline as a player because he’s in his mid to late 30s by the middle and end of that deal so I think that’s a great Point Dave and it’s a great way to think about it is like how what can we do to take ownership and take accountability and take control of our situation and I just I don’t see this like this continuity this maintaining things in the middle as being that being a possib I mean you you did present one Avenue in your column as far as okay what can the Bulls control this off season as far as these financial decisions they have in front of them and that lots of them are out of their control at least the starting points and waiting for other dominoes across the league to fall the Lonzo thing so even if it’s unlikely that we get to that career- ending injury you know consultation from independent non-team doctors to clear it that way you brought up that you can also wave and stretch and in doing so the rule is paying it out over twice the amount of years of the remaining deal which for Lonzo is one so two years and then adding one to that so basically taking the remaining one year and 20 whatever million on Lonzo and dividing it into thirds over 3 years which would mean paying Lonzo 7.1 million this coming season instead of 21 and if you do that if you wave and stretch Lonzo you’ll get just under luxury tax by about 2.8 million as you pointed out but then still you’re short three roster spots and you are only a shade Less Than 3 million away from that luxury tax line and more importantly the team the rest of the team is the same I mean again you might you might turn Zach into like Kevin herder and Harrison Barnes and now you’ve filled out your roster and you’ve saved some money like great what’s the upside there are you hoping to win a championship with that group are you building towards the goal that you just said that you wanted to be a championship team the upside is some Kevin herder jerseys flying off the shs for those those children the biggest thing to me is the Patrick Williams piece because he I think has the most variation in terms of what he can represent in the long term for the Bulls they’re still you know it’s not I don’t think our we’re holding out a ton of Hope but there’s some hope that he could still develop into you know being sort of a different player than what we’ve seen so far so and I think we all sort of feel a similar way about about going down the the road again with Lonzo or with uh dear and Zach M but what what scenarios does it make the most sense to to bring Pat back and what scenarios does it make the most sense for the Bulls to sort of let him go I’m thinking about about like to me it would make sense to keep him here you know on more of a bare bones roster and seeing what he can do in you know with the ball in his hands a little bit more more of a primary role but and then I’d go down the road of not keeping him here and I I just I don’t want to pay him because to not lose the asset because I think we went down that road with Zach and I think going back again we probably would have just let him walk if if we had the decision now but that just those long-term questions because those are the most significant to I think the future and I’m just wondering how you think that goes about happening yeah I think it’s a really good point it’s not just the cap situation that they’re in right now is not just for this year so if you do that wave and stretch with Lonzo that you suggested Matt now you’ve got $7 million in the books for next year and the year after and the year after that um if you bring back Wills it’s probably going to be on a multi-year deal um to me Joey I think like this is a much different situation than Zach the difference between like 15 188 even $20 million a year and 44 is massive the difference between signing somebody to a four-year deal at age 22 is way different than at 28 right um and I think if you are headed towards a rebuild which even if they don’t admit to it even if they do bring back back dear and Vu like they’re still in 2 years time that window is going to be completely closed and now you’re starting over I just don’t think you can let Patrick walk and I know people are frustrated with Patrick at the end of the day like even if he just is what he is now 10 to 12 points per game very good Defender 40% three-point shooter that that gets you paid I mean look at Jaden McDaniels he’s a very similar comparison um I think McDaniels is better but he’s going to be making over 20 this year I feel the same way he’s Pat’s one of the only guys that I think you know there is a scenario in which he can become or still even is already a player that you know even if the Bulls keep him and things don’t go the right you know in the right way he’s still an asset for them it’s still you know and he’s still developing so I just McDaniel signed a 5year $131 million deal starting at 22 and ending at 29 so getting Patrick for under 20 I think is is good I don’t think you can afford to let your assets walk and I think that’s going to be a theme from my perspective talking about the draft too is like you have to get you have to swing for upside this this team is not in a position to not take chance chances on talent and I think Patrick is still a chance on Talent um again even if he just is what he is which I don’t think is necessarily true that’s a valuable player being a 68 power forward who can you know score and give you really good defense and shoot score and give you defense and yeah he could do all those things toally I feel like you’re you’re kind of saying no matter what they choose as far as this year or even as far as uh if they want to keep it all if they whatever they’re just uh prolonging the inevitable which is a rebuild which is going to have to happen regardless am I right now that’s the way I feel about it I mean I think there’s a world where basically you okay let’s say they are able to get off of Zach scottf Frey you either get some salary back you get rid of most of it uh it doesn’t cost you any assets to move him let’s say they signed dear for two more years the same as matching up the contracts with v um you know I’m going to leave cuso out of it right now because I don’t know what’s going to happen with him but you’ve got like your older core pieces and you’ve got your younger core pieces you have this two-year window where they try to compete and contend do whatever and then that’s going to be it for V and dear on big numbers anyway I mean 36 or 37 even for D rozan and like 35 for V you’re not signing big longterm deals after that so at that point now it’s your Changing of the Guard to IO to Kobe who by the way are also up for contracts at that same time mhm and the Bulls are not going to be able to extend them because they’re making so far below what the extension would allow they’re going to be signing I mean K’s going to be making $30 million a year probably I’s probably going to be making 2025 so at that point you have to be willing to sign those guys to Big long-term deals and not only that you have to be able to put a good team around them to where now they are the veteran guys and you’ve got this this younger group of players and older you know veteran minimum type guys that can compliment them so I think that’s a possibility I think it’s really threading the needle and like everything goes right Patrick gets better uh Julian Phillips and D Terry become like really solid players you’re able to continue to hit uh on mid to late first round picks uh and second round picks like that I think is best case scenario of of what you’re hoping for and again to me like that’s why I feel like capitalizing on what remaining assets you have and giving yourself more chances down the line makes more sense because to me like that that immediate future that that short-term future is not good enough to justify not starting over like what are we well and I mean as much as Bulls fans love it I saw somebody in the comments a minute ago saying you know oh what about you know the trade trade Kobe and trade IO part I don’t know about that uh because Bulls fans kind of have in love with Kobe and I over the last couple of years and they were a saving graze for a frustrating team to watch this year and also last year and you’re saying well you’ve got these guys on these great you know team like uh Team friendly value contracts for two more years like and they’re young and can still get better why do you trade an asset like asset like that well you trade an asset when it’s the peak of its trade value exactly and if you are talking about needing to start over anyway you might get quality assets for that whereas some somebody in the comments just say we got to trade V that’s the first priority and another Bulls fan smartly followed that up by saying trade vo for what a bag of chips like like chips where sure lays yeah some Cheetos Doritos let’s go I’m out of there for that Bulls fans thinking that they are going to or would be able to steer in a wildly different direction and maybe regain some level of competitiveness by making trades for Zach Andor Vu Andor a sign and trade for DeMar and getting V play your value back in that mhm to steer your roster Construction in a New Direction while not tanking towards the bottom those trades don’t exist unless I’m missing something no that’s I think that’s the whe that’s kind of everybody out here right now like of course you want to make those trades and bring in some ads like hey bring them around Kobe and build around that then we could be cool you know and young but the point is they don’t exist out there when your best player or arguably your best player can’t get even get traded you know what I mean during an offseason and still it’s up in the air whether he can or not that’s kind of letting you know you know what I mean the NBA is letting you know what they feel about you not what we feel about them which is what Matt is stating not what you guys feel not what I might feel or he might feel or he might feel the league is telling you how they feel about these guys and that’s where you have to hold your kind of standard too and operate from and and you talking about IO and Kobe being up for New Deals in just a couple years will if they you know get toor here for a two-year thing that now lines up with IO and Kobe and the other vet V uh I a prodigy in the comment saying I own Kobe are good players but not players to go build a team around could could the Bulls could they be the best players on a team that gets to the second round of the playoffs how about just getting to the playoffs no like not the vers we’ve seen when they played well they saw had dear and they weren’t the best players so I’m not saying no either but I think that’s that’s like the big question you have to ask yourself is like can these be the best players on playoff teams that win 45 to 50 games can they be the best players on a team that gets to the Conference Finals or to a finals or that wins a championship I don’t know that’s a question that AK is going to have to answer but at the end of the day like if not I would consider trading them and again I’m not saying they have to do that I think another version of this is you keep Zach because you can’t get anything for him you keep V because you can’t get anything for him you get whatever you can for dear in a signning trade or you let him walk you get whatever you can Caruso in a trade before you have to either decide you want to give him $20 million a year for the next four years going from his age 31 to age 34 seasons do this and then you try to let Zach cook and you let V cook and you let them play alongside Kobe and you try to build up their trade value to where you can move them down the line and then you make some of those decisions from a position of power I think that’s probably what I would do and then make decisions on Kobe and a at the deadline or next summer but to me like you you obviously have to make a decision on dear now I think waiting another half season on kuso would be a big mistake because you have less leverage he has more control over where he decides to sign or you just keep him the way you did Drummond and potentially lose him for nothing except for he could actually get you a ton of value back so that’s probably the direction I would go and then prolong the decision on Kobe and IO but like this is not like I saw somebody saying I’m such a zachter like that’s just not true I’m just a person who’s thinking about long-term future of the bulls and how do they get back to competing at a high level and if they want to continue on their path they have to trade Zach that’s been made clear by AK basically and by Zach both parties are comfortable at the trade yeah if they want to go a different direction then that probably means dooen and that means keeping Zach unless you can get positive value for him and then moving on to to something else when he kind of regained some of his value after playing half a season and hopefully putting up some numbers and the comments saying LOL at letting Vu cook Julia said the only thing V is going to cook is the rubber on the bottoms of his shoes god damn F says uh V gonna cook and we’re all getting food poisoning oh wow man good Lord my goodness um well yeah I mean look this this is a dicey financial situation the Bulls are approaching this summer I I mean I do not know how they’re going to get out of it yeah a lot of it um you know as as we’ve laid out is not necessarily you know in their hands from the get-go yeah what is the market for a player like Zack going to be after some bigger name Domino’s fall can I ask you a quick question how big is the draft going to be for the Bulls as far as making these kind of decisions going forward so in terms of like who they select or where they up yeah I mean if this was last year and they got lucky and drafted wanyama like they could have been in a situation where don’t do this to them they they those those March and April wins were fun though right that’s a situation where you’ve got your franchise player and you and you can afford to like try to be good around him without like hurrying him up um I don’t think this draft has that player so maybe you draft a high level role player uh and you continue to build that infrastructure so you know we’ve talked about uh Zachary rease if you can get him and now you’ve got Patrick and Zachary on the wing you’ve got a couple of good guards in the back court now you’re kind of like a star away where you can plug somebody in and that starts to make a little bit more sense or what I think they should probably do is take swings on upside and you know I don’t think topic or SAR will be available where the Bulls are picking unless they move up but it’s I I think at this point given the state of the roster like they need to be taking swings on upside um I understand from a team building construction that you need good role players but I think the longer you kind of Kick the Can down the road of trying to find that star the harder it becomes you end up kind of treading water right above the bottom and that’s kind of what happened with the bulls during their last rebuild where they never got lucky and got that first pick they also didn’t get they didn’t put themselves in a position to get lucky with having multiple picks they got one additional pick for Nicole metic which turns into Chandler Hudson like they didn’t give themselves a chance to get lucky in the draft they didn’t give themselves multiple picks I think looking at this the way that the Oklahoma City Thunder who were in the playoffs until the bubble they tore it down they missed playoffs for 2 years but since they had so many picks they’re now able to try to compete while also still operating in a position of surplus when it comes to draft assets and it’s the Bulls are never going to get there cuz that probably will never happen again in terms of the the volume and quantity of picks that the Thunder have but they can do something close and then you’ve got to hit that’s the same with everybody else you got to hit on your draft picks you got to develop young players you got to build through the draft and then you start to supplement with you know veterans that can come in you look at the Thunder you look at the magic um and then you contrast that with teams like the Clippers and the Bulls who kind of sold their souls for aging veterans and they just were never able to get to that level yeah uh Charlie in the comment saying only thing we’ve got going for us is we’re in the East if we were in the west it would take a damn near decade for us to turn this around and I mean I think generally speaking that’s true but OKC is a perfect example of the fact that if you get lucky and make your trades well and draft well you can turn it around fairly quickly and I think like if you just got a pick and a young player for Caruso and maybe like a mid to okay asset for D rozan like a late first round pick or you know a decent young player now you’ve got Kobe and IO you’ve got Patrick still because you’ve got room for him like I said maybe you kick the can down the road on the Zack trade to where you can get something positive for him you’ve got Dal Terry you’ve got Julian Phillips you’ve got your own pick at number 11 this year you’ve got multiple future picks like that’s a great situation this is not like a situation where everything is going to be a disaster and they have no options or outs I think it becomes that way if you let guys expire without trading for them or you wait until their value is so low that you can’t get anything back like what happened with Vu and what’s probably going to happen with dear here but just trading Caruso for a pick and young player I think sets you up so well and gives you a lot of other optionality to where you have different places you can go and and you have a little bit more room to maneuver because as much as we’ve said the margin for error with this team is so little on the basketball court it’s just as Slim in the front office and on the cap sheet and I think they really need to help themselves try to get into a better position by capitalizing on the assets that they do have uh yeah 64 Hoops in the comments said PE that quick turnaround uh requires a good front office yeah I’m aware of that and I am also aware of the fact that I have no faith in ours uh so all of this is bad and I have no faith that the Bulls will ever be anywhere near Championship contenders ever again and that’s and we’re all going to die and we’re all going to die someday but here we are talking about the Bulls 5 days a week cuz life is fun uh what else what else would we do that’s right like go to a real job no I’d be doing this at that job hell with that i’ still be talk to Bulls all the time this is what it is y’all exactly and misery loves company so we will always be here for you our fellow Bulls fans uh we are out of time real quick before we go are the t- Wolves going to sweep the defending champs out of the playoffs I’m going to say no no but damn but but damn we’ve been waiting for that Nuggets game where they finally get their [ __ ] together it Ain it was not last night they threw a temper tance from last night dude they they were they I mean if Jamal do we think Jamal Murray’s gonna get suspended he might get suspended you see Draymond quot tweeting and say that he’d be in guantan Draymond needs to uh take a a lesson from Pat Riley and if he’s not in I think they’re I think they’re getting swept you think they’re getting swept I think I said it yesterday I think they’re going SW this nuggets team has too much pride for that I just I just think that nuggets and seven is still on the table for you guys it is it is still there it could happen but man but they got to get something together 35 Point Half yesterday without uh the defense player of the year but I’m saying to 80 points dude they shot 30 what 30% from the field they shot 50% from the field and 40% from three is what Minnesota did and I like I like what the wolves are doing defensively with without goar by the way SW just like they’re taking away Michael Porter they are taking away those lobs to Aaron Gordon from the dker spot and they’re just like forcing joic and Murray to do everything yeah that that team is like those guys are obviously amazing scorers but it’s just hard to beat a team with two guys also how the t-wolves in game two especially forced Joker to defend yeah shout out to our guy Stephan no he did a great video breakdown of some of the things that t wolves were doing to force jokic uh away from the basket more putting him in more actions regardless of who he was on who the Nuggets tried to hide him on um the nuggets are in trouble man they’re in trouble not denying that um but yeah I mean I I said this series is going to go seven games it still might uh meanwhile Nicks take game one of the Pacers I still think that series can go in any which way I had no fun watching that game it was a weird game officiating was a little weird I turned it off real um tonight we got Celtics Cavs kicking off their conference semis um at 6 o00 Central and then Mavs Thunder game one 8:30 who we taking in game one Celtics Boston and thunder Boston and thunder Boston and thunder Celtics and OKC I think so Joe who’s winning the game ones tonight Boston and Dallas oo o Joey taking them mes I love it all right we are out of time we will get out of here back tomorrow same time same place 400 p.m. central live and studio with another fresh episode for y’all do not go anywhere because right here on our CSO Sports YouTube channel we got NHL draft lottery action on Deck what time y’all starting live Mario 5:30 5:30 let’s get out of here 5:30 Central stay right here let’s all watch the Blackhawks get the number one pick again let’s do that let’s do it in the meantime read Will’s Bulls offseason guy allo.com willg is where you can follow him big day bow bwl Sports on bulls we are C Bulls our palet producer Joey spus the one and only at joy spus talk to you tomorrow have a great night enjoy the Hoops action let’s go get that number one pick fans see re good we want to see hype Mario again yeah let’s go