Decoding the Bulls’ strategy: Embracing evolution or avoiding rebuild?

Dive deep into the heart of Bulls’ basketball with the Bulls Talk Podcast! Join K.C. Johnson, Tony Gill, and Will Perdue as they dissect the pivotal decisions facing the franchise this offseason. From assessing past disappointments to questioning the avoidance of a rebuild, no stone is left unturned in this gripping conversation (2:00). Get ready for insights on maintaining competitiveness versus embracing change (13:39), as well as bold expectations for the upcoming offseason (29:40). Plus, don’t miss Will Perdue’s response to JJ Redick’s controversial remarks about Michael Jordan and the NBA’s evolution (45:21). Tune in now for all the hoop action and intrigue.

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[Music] this is the balls Talk podcast brought to you by Toyota Let’s Go Places uh season review from will Purdue and was the league really watered down during Michael Jordan’s era we’re gonna we’re gonna Deep dive into those topics today but with me I have Casey Johnson Bulls Insider for NBC Sports Chicago and the man myth the legend the champion the guy that hosts your pre and postgame show for uh Bulls basketball will Purdue will KC how you guys doing what up doing very well the weather is turning baby you know what that means golf season for will that’s well you too Casey we’re gonna be getting out again this year don’t you worry my friend I didn’t distinguish myself very well last season I was a little off my game what you know what if I want get invite to these these golf things like I don’t have any golf clubs or anything I know the gist of the game let me slow you guys down though wait a minute the guy says I want to get invited which is fine but then he’s admits I don’t have any golf clubs and and have you ever actually played golf ever uh I’ve played mini golf and I’ve done Top Golf so the combination of those two right should I should have the gist of the game and you’re not just to be clear you’re not one of those people that’s fallen into the net at Top Golf no no at least I’m not doing [Laughter] that um but that’s not what you guys came here for you guys came to hear some Bulls basketball talk so uh start off will um just kind of your overview of how this bull season uh ended up I mean you were you know there watching you know almost every game you’re on almost every pre and postgame show um but your thoughts just about how this season you know turned out for the Bulls well Tony I I I look at it this way so when people are you know watching this and they’re like okay how’s he what approach is he taking so I go back to uh late September of 23 and you know we’re doing the um preseason show special or whatever we call it and we talk to the players and the coaches and do interviews and now we’ve the lineup is solidified I think that one thing that we’re forgetting is I think we said best case scenario if everything went well everybody stayed healthy was 44 45 wins because you’re not like well guys are gonna miss games so you’re thinking okay that’s uh 45 and 37 so am I right there is that right is that added up to 82 yes so that was like best case and we’re thinking that’s right around that six seed right and I should have looked at that before we started doing this but that’s kind of was we figured best case scenario was they get the sixc and stay out of the play in well Zach’s injured P Will’s injured they win 39 games so I look at at it quite honestly as a blessing in in in a sense because I think with that other guys got massive opportunities most notably Kobe and IO you could probably say those are the two biggest bright spots of the Season without Zach getting hurt without P will getting hurt that may not happen so to try to put a positive spin on it but also at the end of the day at when the season is over and to hear our Church’s uh postseason press conference to him talk about you know this group something doesn’t work it hasn’t worked that means that we should be seeing changes coming across the board uh we’ve already seen it in the coaching staff we’ve already seen it within um how would you refer to it casy within uh strength conditioning uh Sports Performance staff I mean SP performance staff performance is the umbrella over is the umbrella over training and strength and condition yeah so I think that from that standpoint what’s already happened up to us doing this podcast nothing’s happened from a player standpoint but it it to me is sending a message that there needs to be changes all across the board we’ve seen a change in the coaching staff we don’t know how that’s going to look by the time the season starts the sports performance staff um we obviously feel like there’s going to be changes amongst this roster but the question is when it’s all said and done do the changes actually make things worse or do they make things better we’re gonna have to wait and see um you know the one thing we don’t know is is how how deep are the changes going to go go are we all of a sudden going to see massive sweeps of the roster and they don’t use the word rebuild but yet the roster looks totally different or is it just uh you know we just are we making a few changes here or there and you know we’re still a middle of the road team that that’s what hasn’t been determined we just know that there’s going to be changes which I think is a good thing but now I’m anxious to see you know you know when we roll into September again and The Season’s getting ready to start and they’re getting ready for training camp what’s this roster look like what’s the coaching staff look like there’s still a lot of unknowns well were you disappointed in how uh this kind of era bull or H or have you been disappointed in how this era uh last two to three years have gone for for the Bulls oh yeah I mean you think about playin this year didn’t make it out of the playin playin last year didn’t make it out of the playin six seed the year before that but also you know the Lonzo injury I just again it’s it’s a small group or a a small window of games when everybody was truly healthy but I think that unfortunately it’s never going to be back to that with this group again I know lonzo’s you know on the path to coming back but the only thing we have to lean on is history and history tells us that this is it’s not going to happen it’s not going to work you know we just Brandon Brandon Roy is your latest example of this particular injury and how you know you’re talking about a guy that was going to be in my opinion a Hall of Famer ruined his career you know he’s still the short period of the time he was in the NBA was a great player but I I think this is what Lonzo balls up against um so you know I think when you take and and when was the last time that this even before if you want to talk about this era being the last three years when was the last time this organization even had a winning record it’s once in the last seven years is that right was 42 and 40 yeah 42 and 40 That’s I I wouldn’t say that’s impressive by any means it’s a winning record but not impressive but I know they’ve been up against a lot um you know and I think that the the biggest thing is is that the east in my opinion from top to bottom has gotten a lot better so it’s just you know you got to be able to play every single night and that’s just that’s just something I I hope that we see a you know a mass Improvement as far as this roster goes KY is there a pathway that you can see and you know we’ve been discussing this ever since the the season ended on uh you know the mailbag episode uh episode two is coming out next week um but just varying different ways about you know how or the difficulties of how this team can get back to True relevancy true playoff contention um but do you see a pathway for the Bulls to get there um after we’ve kind of gone over all the various options that you know are out there that may seem limited but do you think there is a pathway to get there I think it’s going to be tough given how they’ve wanted to stay competitive because when you want to stay competitive you’re that means you’re avoiding a full rebuild and I’m not a huge fan of full rebuilds I’ve covered two of them they’re painful to watch painful to cover painful for the organization to go through but this kind of middle of the pack it it’s hard to you know all we can go by is what Urus has said publicly and he has said he wants to remain competitive and I know he has said that this Ro this group hasn’t worked that’s the new wrinkle to this but trust me I’ve been around him enough to know he wants to remain competitive so to me this group hasn’t worked means he’s obviously as we reported first going to try to trade Zack LaVine but past that how widespread are change is going to be if you want to remain competitive um if you Reign toar to Rosen he raises your floor instantly he’s just too good of a player um not to and uh that’s not to say I you know it’s it’d be a bad move to resign tomorrow because he’s an excellent player but you got to go through pain to get back to Championship contention and to your question about will is this disappointing it’s disappointing to me mostly because we saw the potential for this vision vision and I know we’re way past Lonzo ball injury but that’s got to be the hardest pill for this management team to swallow is they saw their Vision playing out in real time two packed United Centers two loud United Centers through that first half of that 21-22 season it was rocking man that was fun basketball to watch fun basketball to cover fun basketball for the Bulls to play and you know they’ve held on to that vision for a long time uh you know even if Lonzo is able to return to Wills Point you can’t expect him to be at the level that he was at before so I think you got to go through pain to get back to opening a window of Championship contention and I don’t see this management team going to that um length to undertake that much pain so I think it’s gonna be tough I think they’re going to stay in the middle for a while here well I want I want to pass this to you because I think that’s an excellent point that that Casey brought up and I think it’s something that I don’t think you a lot of people have discussed is the avoidance of because this is a whole different kind of pain for the Bulls fans as they watch kind of what has developed where you know you don’t really have a shot but you know you’re in the middle you’re you’re in the middle bottom middle if you if you want to say middle but the bottom middle all right Tony hold on can you hold on that hold that thought I I’m sorry to make this comment but I just I just need some clarification please okay I’m I’m looking at you and I haven’t seen you in a while because you you know you’ve had a new addition to the family you’re at home a lot you’re working from home which is which is great but I’m looking at this beard okay I’m sorry I can’t get I I just need to get this behind me I mean it looks really good oh thank you appreciate it I just need you to tell me that it’s not a Carlos Boozer beard it is not this is all natural no extras or anything in it uh it as uh as Casey have seen over the last couple I just got a haircut actually so that’s why it looks you know I’m going to a wedding uh tomorrow so my wife was like hey you need to get a haircut and I’ve been kind of in album mode I’ve let the brush kind of just grow and grow and grow I did limited trimming so I just kind of let it grow out and this this was the final product well it looks good but I just wanted to clarify so now let’s get back on track and Reas your question please all right I’m gonna definitely gonna have to make that a clip for social but my point my question was um this is a a different kind of pain that fans are used to in terms of staying stuck and not having really a pathway to go upward um but are the Bulls like why are they trying to avoid that pain and is it possible to avoid the rebuild pain because it is tough going to rebuild it is tough but you still have the hope of growing into something bigger than what you’ve already kind of achieved by taking a few steps back in order to find a different way through the championship maze uh I guess so I have two questions why are they wanting to avoid the rebuild path and and is it possible to be or build a championship team a contending team uh on a consistent basis without going through that pain of a a full and total rebuild well just this just from let me let me just say I’ll answer this question to say if I was in our Church’s chair and I I’d love to get ky’s take on this as well because I think Casey if I heard you correctly you’d prefer not to go through a rebuild because of the pain but you basically said you feel like that’s the best route for a organization to take to get back to a contending status is that correct I don’t think it’s the best route all the time I think it’s the best route for this situation okay and I want to say that I agree with Casey in that point and I will tell you why but to answer your question first and foremost I think when you as an organization let’s just use that word and not necessarily say just Urus because this is this is the responsibility of everybody within the organization front office ownership the whole thing if you go the rebuild route then you basically have to stand up and say this was a failure it did not work and nobody wants to say they failed specifically publicly because then you basically said I did not do my job and it has not worked but I think that we all three of us here can talk about and have a whole different podcast on the things that we’ve learned from failure the you know facing adversity and how that’s made us a stronger person and a better man and blah blah blah but you know that it’s it’s very humbling and it’s something that’s very difficult to do so what you ask yourself is the second part of that question that you asked Tony was is there is there a route I mean I think there is but I think what it would require is for our chus and Mark everle to hit like three or four home runs like Grand Slams with trads like basically when winning the lottery like four times in a row in one season of making trades that are home runs and when was the last time you could sit here and look at any organization and say winner winner winner winner winner on every trade they made you know as Casey talked about the pain how much pain has Oklahoma City been through with trades developing draft picks um you know just a lot of losing right and people can say well you know it’s look where it’s got them okay that’s it’s got them to where they are now the number one seat in the west but but Oklahoma City’s not Chicago Okay Oklahoma City doesn’t have six banners hanging up in the rafters you can say well they came from Seattle they did but you wipe the Slate clean because now your fan base you still have your West Coast fan base but now you’re people that go to the games and your fan base is now brand new okay these these are all sooner fans Cowboy fans College fans but they’ve become NBA fans I mean I’ve I’ve done games in Oklahoma City they had very good teams you know Westbrook Durant you know they had their big three but yet they felt it was necessary to blow that up because they saw a bigger picture but look how long it’s taken them to get there all right but now you can honestly say this team’s going to be relevant for a long time but I think we would all consider them a smaller Market team and this ownership now in the near future is going to be put up against are you willing to maintain the status that you have developed to be a contender year in and year out and go into the luxury tax year after year because I use this this example all the time if winning a championship was so damn profitable why did Mark cubin have a fire sale the minute he won a championship why did he just not maintain that upward trend and just spend spend spend spend spend because at the end of the day this isn’t the the the 70s in the 80s where it was cool to own a franchise and you know I’m an owner of a professional football team basketball team baseball team it’s about making money it’s different now so you know I just it’s kind of interesting um we’re doing this podcast on THS Thursday the 2nd at 11:00 a.m. Central and I obviously got in and wanted to do some work before the podcast and uh the owner of the uh the Phoenix Suns you know talks about hey this didn’t work out we’re on the right track but are you as an owner and you’re one of you’re the newest owner in the league are you continuing to spend spend spend spend spend if you are having a team that gets knocked out in the first round I understand what their intentions are but then it’s like you know a boxer going into the ring and you know it’s a 10 round fight but you’re basically you know it’s like Tex cop gets his ass kicked but yet he goes he didn’t knock me down but you didn’t win either so what is this about is and and to me for the Chicago Bulls the The Establishment whatever you want the the expectations are hanging in the rafters not only from fans but his former players of what we expect from this team and the direction we would like them to go Casey your your thoughts about avoiding the pain of a rebuild but having it feel and seem like that may be the best route for them to go well I would first of all I when I woke up on uh May 2nd I didn’t expect Carlos Boozer to be catching Strays so I just want to make that point real clear uh but no and listen let me make let me be very clear this was Carlos Boozer as a player now I look at Carlos Boozer as a as a father it’s different yeah but as you talked about he’s catching Strays he can’t deny it it just it is what it is unfortunately there’s certain things our past that are etched in our brain I understand uh the the first of all I want to make clear I think the window actually is passed for this opportunity I mean we we were talking at the trade deadline in 2023 but that’s when you would need to maximize the assets as as anyone can point out the longer you hold on to an asset it moves from a you know positive asset to a negative asset and quite frankly I think unfortunately Zach is mostly a negative asset now I never thought that would be the case I thought um his max was brainer at the time and he so quickly right I mean we’re only that’s what I mean it passes quickly you could make the argument that Vu is more of a negative asset now because you just you just resigned him to a three-year deal at 20 million annually average um you know when when what other team would have paid him that um and you’re going to face that same decision with theor coming up so let the first thing I want to make clear is I think the opportunity to to do this the right way uh has passed so it would be even more painful now to do it um and I don’t think they’re going to do it I don’t think they’re going to do a full rebuild but a better example than I mean OKC is a is a more extreme example uh a more pertinent example to me is the Pacers there’s kind of this unstated view in the league that the Pacers kind of and I don’t I don’t know this to be 100% true but like you hear this around the league like ownership never wants the Pacers to bottom out because it’s the birth place of basketball it’s one of the few major you know it’s one of the few major things going on obviously they have the Colts too um in Indianapolis and you know you look at this team’s track record um they are in the mid 40s pretty much every year but they lost in the first round five straight years from 2016 to 2020 um then they made the sabonis trade and definitely had a couple years of leanness and now they’re kind of back on the upswing and they’re back in the playoffs um are they Championship contending no are they competitive yes um they’re they a team that my point I’m trying to make is they kind of retooled on the Fly and they’ve stayed competitive while retooling and moving from sabonis to halberton um and it does seem like they have a little bit more potential now they’ve got some nice young pieces I love neb har neb har um they’ve got some young talent coming up kind of like the Bulls have Kobe and iio so there is a model to stay competitive and kind of open up a new window are the Pacers Championship contention no are they an intriguing team that won 47 games yes and that’s kind of more the model I think the Bulls ultimately will follow um I could be wrong but that’s kind of the vibe the vibe that I have that’s interesting I haven’t I haven’t you know that’s definitely interesting I haven’t thought about you know the Pacers kind of being uh you know the model uh for this kind of team building um but it does make sense considering the path that they’ve chosen to go on now I think if that if that’s the if that’s the pathway in in the Mad Lib right of basketball building if that’s the Mad Lib that they go um it’s not terrible right like they have young Talent they’re growing together you know whatever happens they they’re kind of good with how they go about it but adding the outside aspect of this being Chicago of the history that is here and having that hang over your head versus an indiat Pacer team that at least to my knowledge of basketball history hasn’t won an NBA championship like they’ve been super competitive but even before the Reggie era like I don’t I don’t even think of them having a Championship uh at all but they don’t have that hanging over their heads uh the Bulls do um so I guess for a fan I guess my question is for you guys like how is a fan supposed to take that that okay we will be the Indiana Pacers for you know the next 15 years uh and not think about the six championships uh era that hovers over now feels like a like a bad raincloud now when when you put it into to that aspect will I just listen I I think because of of a organization’s past and this Bull’s past of you talking about dony winning six championships I don’t think you can go that route um and this has nothing to do with the fan base I just think that the expectation that this organization has set because of the past and because of those six championships now somebody could make the argument that well if it wasn’t for Michael Jordan you never would have won those six championships you’re exactly right but that’s where now doing your homework hitting home runs on draft picks you know putting teams together it’s there’s so many factors that you have to take and do it account that you have to succeed at um and that’s that’s where you got to be able it’s kind of like Tetris right you got to be able to put all this together uh some of it is luck quite honestly but there’s a lot of skill involved of trying to figure this all out and put and it’s not easy um I mean the Lakers are a perfect example the Miami Heat another example you know we’re not the only team that talked about continuity you know Miami all in knocked out in the first round Lakers all in knocked out in the first round Golden State we know what their history is so we’re not the only ones sitting here pondering okay how do we get back to where we were there’s a lot of teams doing that and now you start and you look at the Boston Celtics and you’re like everybody’s gonna be like I told you porzingis was going to get hurt he can’t stay healthy so now you’re like uh oh but also the Milwaukee Bucks and that’s why you continue to talk about in the Phoenix Suns you have to have depth and that’s the hard part is with the new collective bargaining agreement how do you build a team that is that has enough Superstars but has enough depth to basically cover respond be flexible enough to handle anything that comes your way in an 82 Game season and that I I can honestly say I don’t have the answer to that but it’s just that tells you right there how small the window is when a team gets to that level of why you have to go all in because of how quickly that window can close my final question uh will and then we’ll move on to uh our next topic uh what do you at least in the short term this off season um what do you want to see done um with all the various options right dear is heading to free agency Patrick Williams is heading to restricted free agency the Zack LaVine uh you know possibility of being trade so like what do you want to see this offseason be done well listen let’s just take and I want to be very clear and I went back and looked at that this a lot I was trying to figure this out and Casey you reported this numerous times in your articles um throughout the year and then also after the season that Zack LaVine never stepped up and said I want to be traded right never Zach basically said okay fine me and my representatives are open to to being traded everybody wants to go somewhere where they have a chance to win okay but I think that we’ve because of what Zach and his Representatives have said what the Bulls have said I feel like it’s in the best interest of this organization to trade Zack LaVine 100% okay I’m not saying that that’s exactly what I want but I feel like for this team to get where we all expect it to be and that’s back to contention that this team first and foremost has to trade Zack LaVine I think that’s be that’s what’s best for Zach and that’s what’s best for this organization so that’s what and at some point I would imagine Urus and Mark just have to say okay what’s the best we can get and this is what we have to go with right and that’s and that may be a swift kick in the groin but you you just you got to take it okay because then that kind of now to me that’s kind of like i’ right opens the door clears out the dark clouds fresh breath of air now step two but this is probably where and I don’t want to say Casey and I disagree and I’d love to get his opinion on this but I feel like in order to stay competitive if that’s what you know our church wants to truly focus on unless they can really hit a couple home runs to stay competitive they need to resign tomorrow but I feel like if you resign tomorrow you pretty much are’s I mean you’re you’re pretty much staying where you are right now and so I don’t I mean listen Demar is going to be a Hall of Famer there’s no ifs hands or butts you know Casey you talked about in your article he might have actually even though he didn’t make the All-Star team this year he might have had his biggest impact on this organization and his three years of being with the bulls but at the pre at the pr present moment we’re just treading water and the reason why I I would lean towards not bringing dear back is is and I know a lot of people are going to disagree with with this but we still don’t know who Patrick William is I know a lot of people step up and say I do I and I would like to be able to say that but there’s still some unanswered questions so now we’re getting into that pain aspect that KC’s talking about of okay Kobe white to me is Untouchable all right that’s really about it I would love for Iowa to stay a local guy I love watching this guy play every single night but you might be able to get some significant assets all right Alex Caruso love for him to be here should be able to get significant assets all right Julian Phillips I will say when he got when they drafted him and I was like what but in the short time that he has played I’ve liked what I’ve seen I think this guy’s got a future it’s unknown how bright it is but I think he has a future I’ve wavered on this part like daily I mean seriously like Casey knows I could be on the golf course on Tuesday and people will be like well should they bring back P will and I’m like nope and on Wednesday I’m like yep because I’ve I’ve seen and this is the part I’ve seen glimpses of what this kid can be and I’ll still refer to him as a kid because he’s in his 20s I’ve seen glimpses but this is the this is the debate about okay well you can bring him back and you can bring dear back but then you’re still treading water and I truly believe and this is this is no fault of dear but just if dear and Patrick Williams are on the same team will never find out who Patrick Williams truly is and I think we need a solid answer okay because we really didn’t know who Lowry was well we know who he is now and anybody can go oh I knew who he was I knew we should have never traded him yeah yeah whatever I don’t think there’s anybody that out there that would have bet their house on this guy’s going to be an All-Star this guy’s going to be a top 50 player no no you know hindsight’s 2020 whatever you want that’s fine you know I mean we can have this argument about how good is Carter in Orlando is he technically any different than he is was in Chicago I mean I know his numbers are better but as far as impacting a game is he NE and and I don’t want people to take that the wrong way he’s an NBA player there’s no doubt about it but he’s one of those guys that can have a significant impact and help a team win he’s done that in Orlando and he’ll do that wherever else he ends up I imagine he’ll stay in Orlando but he wasn’t having that impact here so we can talk about the mistakes that they’ve made and look what players are doing elsewhere but we can talk about many examples of Once A guy got traded look what happened but he went to a different team with a different coach with a different roster and it was successful that happens all the time so everybody that wants to say well look what happened I mean what’s I remember watching the All-Star game from baseball one year and they’re like look at all the former Cubs in the allar game you know it was just like the Cub effect it it’s this stuff happens but you go elsewhere with different coaches that you mesh better with different styles that you mesh better with and you become better player it’s it happens all over NFL Major League Baseball hockey basketball whatever so you just got to accept that it’s it’s frustrating and it and it pisses you off but sometimes that just happens if you’re gon to continue to have Billy Donovan and his system you need to identify the players that will fit best in that system to help you get to the next level we got some breaking we got some breaking news here by the way Alex bruso has won the 2023 24 NBA hustle award which I actually had forgotten existed it’s in its eighth year of existence uh Fus young actually won this award in 2021 for the Bulls uh the other winners started in 1617 or Patrick Beverly when he’s with Houston Amir Johnson with the 76ers Marcus Smart with the Celtics montre arrell Clippers bad young then smart won it backto back years with the Celtics in 22 and 23 and Caruso is this year’s winner it’s given to um the player in the league that makes the effort plays that don’t often appear in the traditional box score but impact winning on a nightly basis things like deflections loose balls recovered charges drawn screen assists contested shots Closeouts all that tracking data of the NBA is leaned into Caruso obviously going to be in the running for this award every year and it’s the first time he won it and I assume it’s the lead to a repeat on the all defense team so good for Alex Caruso shout Alex Caruso I mean well deserved but and I unfortunately he won’t be defensive player of the year I think he will be first team all defense but and let me just go full circle here if you could make a couple home run trades and keep Alex Caruso that’d be awwesome I just don’t what’s that case what did you say I didn’t hear what you said I said if you could keep make a couple home run trades and really improve this roster and keep Alex Caruso that’d be awesome because to me he’s you know he’s also not only should he win hustle award he should re he should win glue guy award you know it’s just the lake I mean I think the Lakers realize they made a mistake when they got rid of him oh yeah yep you know and and so that that that would be a perfect example of an organization that has made a lot of good moves a lot of good trades an organization that’s worth a lot of money just like the Bulls you basically let this guy go over a couple million dollars uh they mostly let them go could see pivoted to what Russell Westbrook yeah that didn’t work out that was awful that was all I would have never that acquisition yeah but but that’s that’s the thing everybody makes mistakes and you gotta be identify what works best for your team and it’s kind of ironic that you know the guy you brought up Marcus Smart you know how important was he to the Celtics you know about what he brought as far as the hustle award the attitude the accountability you know I it’s it took him a while to adapt to them him not being there somebody having to pick up where he left off so gentlemen um that was a nice wrap up of let me uh hold on a second Tony I know we’re you know we’re getting long here but I would like to hear KC’s and I I pretty much know what his answer is but I would like him to go on record of you know like I I said I I and I’ll be I’ll repeat it if this team wants to be competitive they will resign tomorrow and bring him back that makes that immediately makes them competitive I’m just not sure that’s what’s best for the future of this organization but I want to get casy’s opinion on a what is best for the organization but B what he thinks will ultimately happen uh I think I might surprise you makes it seem like you think I think he they I should I’m going to say I think they should let him walk too but I I don’t agree with anymore because they’ve missed their window so now I think signing him to a two-year deal actually would be a good thing because you’d line him up with Vu and it would give you two years of um you know competitiveness while the young guys still grow I I don’t agree actually with your point that Demar is holding Patrick Williams back I think Patrick Williams is holding Patrick Williams back and dear and Kobe’s Ascension with dear being the man is just more proof of that dear will gladly take a lesser role if the dudes can ball out and Kobe white balled out this year uh Patrick Williams just keeps showing flashes and obviously injuries are out of his control um so I I think best case scenario would be getting the f I completely agree with you on Zach it’s just a relationship that has run its course it’s nobody’s fault it’s just a relationship that needs a divorce from both sides it’ll that will be best for both sides so I think that should be your main focus if you can get dear to sign a two-year deal I know he wants three three years if you can sign get him to sign a two-year deal line them up with Vu let Kobe IO and Patrick develop see what you get in the Zach trade Russo you know he’s your ma biggest asset you either maximize them this offseason or closer to the trade deadline now you’re starting to retool some stuff with some with with a pathway out because in two years you know you’re GNA have salary salary relief with Vu and dear Lonzo ball situation will completely have played out by then and you’ve got you know something coming back from Zach that you see how that fits and you hope that your young guys continue to grow in Kobe Patrick and and iio so um that’s that’s I’m terrible at gming but that’s what I would do and let me clarify one thing you’re exactly right this is up to Patrick it’s not up to Demar this is up to Patrick and that’s one of the biggest things I question is does he have the personality to step on dear’s toes and to basically you know give dear the Heisman and say Hey you know this is my time now as well that’s why I just don’t think those two were a mix more so because I think that you know Patrick is somewhat passive um I say this all the time I’ve I’ve talked to Patrick many times my son is a sophomore in college and I hope that he has a lot of the traits that Pat I mean that they’re almost the same age basically but because now Patrick’s been in the NBA he’s we look at him as a man I hope that he has a lot of those traits as far as he is very he is a gentleman and I think KC can back that up but I’ve always made this statement and I’ve told Patrick’s agent this many times he needs to be eating Nails three times a day because that’s what what he needs to become more of an of a a-hole I think he he’s too nice but he I think there’s no question he has the skill set so I just want to clarify this isn’t dear’s fault it’s just those two together on the same team just don’t work well so I think you have to pick one or the other that’s because you you you’re you are correct Kobe we saw the growth and bald out IO same thing but I just don’t think dear and because they’re very similar players dear and and P will on the same team just don’t work speaking of a-holes MJ I did make that comment yes no no that’s that’s Tony surprise topic and this is going to be all you man I in I didn’t even hear what what uh he’s gonna say but go ahead so JJ reck uh who is now like the rumor meal is going on that LeBron started the podcast with JJ to get him as coach of the Lakers um he joined Shaq on his podcast the big podcast with Shaq uh and they were discussing the greatest of all time stuff of that nature admittedly JJ did not want to have the conversation he said that he prefered that to start the conversation but he did say this and I think this is a routinely quip against people who don’t think MJ is the greatest he says quote I think it’s fair to just say there are different tiers of greatness I’ll say this with Michael Jordan and I don’t mean this to be controversial but like everybody talks about the context of this era the current ERA Jordan was drafted during his Heyday and six teams were added to the NB there were 90 players added to the NBA does that not water down the regular season to a degree that’s what he says um and then he goes on to say if we add two teams in two or three years we get a Vegas franchise or Seattle or Seattle franchise you’re not telling me that the league for a little bit is going to be a little watered down so his overall aspect of the Jordan era and the reasons why Jordan put up these insane numbers uh crazy efficiency is because the expansion of the NBA during that time period uh watered down the league so much where teams new teams they’re getting used to being in the NBA uh an influx of new players uh that would have normally not have been main rotational players in the NBA during that time period made it a little bit easier for Jordan to dominate in in the ways he is and then that’s kind of what he’s trying to to get at when we’re having the greatest of all time conversation now will you played in that era of NBA basketball and I know Casey’s smiling because I know he can’t wait to get your thoughts and response to to that quip uh but your thoughts about what JJ said in in that aspect of was the league weaker in that time frame of the NBA I don’t think so and my my answer may surprise you in the sense that and this was this is now the biggest issue with what’s going on with the league now because of how and I mentioned this earlier on in the podcast about the the collective bargaining agreement everybody every team is topheavy right they just don’t have a lot of depth Phoenix Suns are a perfect example what happened first round exit I think what we should be focusing on is the question is isn’t is Michael Jordan the greatest player of all time because I think he is period but the question is maybe more so if you’re talking about the let’s just say even if you say okay maybe it did water down the league I disagree but for the of argument it did and I this is GNA some people are going to be like we’re we’re this came out of left field how good was Jerry Krauss of putting together teams from top to bottom identifying those guys that fit into playing the triangle okay I think what people are forgetting is is that MJ had no interest in playing the triangle but eventually with Phil Jackson just beating him over the head he just he decided that he would at least try give it a give it a true shot right because casy can tell you you know when when we first started running this offense it was a debacle because of how intricate it was it’s a read offense right we everybody can use different terminology but if all five guys aren’t reading the same thing it it’s it’s a disaster it doesn’t work ask the Dallas Mavericks who had a really good team with some really good players when Jim Clemens tried to get them to run it when he was the head coach it just they didn’t buy in it didn’t work and and he didn’t last so it’s almost like the Bulls for an extended period of time were the perfect storm right you had the best player in the league you had the best GM in the league you had the best coach in the league and as much as all three of those guys hated one another for one reason or another they still would bite their tongue to a certain extent for the betterment of the team I mean how many people out there would sit there and say you know what Bobby Hansen fits into what the Bulls are trying to do or you know I mean Steve cerr fits into what the Bulls are trying to do you know you’re talking about some guys that you know were role players but they fit specifically into their role and when Bobby Hansen was called on to do his job he did it he did it spe really well Steve Kerr really well why why do I bring these two guys up specifically because of the shots that they hit the timing of the shots that they hit right so how think about you know how deep was those Bulls teams in the 90s from top to bottom when you talk about the the the rotation of you think about the starting lineup was John Paxton Michael Jordan Scotty Pippen Horus Grant Bill cartright but then you were able to then as the rotation started you know bill was usually the first guy out and it was either me or Stacy or Scott Williams then it was BJ for packs then it was Craig Hodes um you know and then Scotty was the main focal point of that second unit right and then eventually he would go out and Michael would come back in and you were talking about nine deep on a nightly basis and then as the playoffs started you’d ratchet it down to eight but just exactly how deep and then as guys got hurt other guys stepped in how deep were those rosters that might be the most important question you know because everybody you obviously the Phoenix Suns you know they’re hanging on a Ledge because they’re they’ve loaded everybody up with three guys and and it’s just if you can stay and but that’s the other thing you know can you stay healthy and that’s the other that’s the hard part is is that is the league watered down we still play 82 games right they’re not playing fewer games but why why are things changed so much and the in the amount of injuries and the collective bar I mean there’s so many things to take into account but I will I will say this and this this is an argument that just depends on the individual and it’ll never go away okay why is it such a disgrace to be considered the second best player of all [Laughter] time in the best league in the world right and and yeah we can have the debate of you know who’s the better player and I’ve said this more than once okay if you want to talk about an individual let’s have LeBron and MJ play one-on-one okay but to me this this this doesn’t decide who the best player is but this is a debate in this case of let’s play one-on-one okay 6869 275 verse 66 225 that that right there is just an argument of science right there okay what is it that MJ KY what is it that MJ can do is there something that MJ can do that LeBron can’t from a a skill standpoint there something MJ can do that LeBron can right just from a skill standpoint skill standpoint no they’re both they don’t have a skill they don’t have a flaw skill set wise either one of them but there’s not specific skill set from a physical standpoint that one possesses it the other doesn’t would you agree with that yeah Tony yeah I agree so to me I understand LeBron’s the leading scorer of all time but he’s also played a lot more games at MJ okay so we so maybe we should make the debate about well what if MJ’s father was you know we didn’t have that incident what would we still be having this conversation you know because then we could have the conversation of well would the Bulls have won eight championships in a row instead of six out of eight so there’s so many factors but my reasoning and I would let me get back to the other one if those two played one-on-one I’d probably pick LeBron to win a one-on-one game okay okay but it but just because of same skill set both outstanding superior but you’re just talking about 682 68 275 66 220 225 that 50 pounds means a lot and uh we’re talking about 50 pounds of muscle we’re not talking about 50 pounds of fat so I think physically he would just wear him down right but then it would be basically the if we did this it’ have to be you know the best out of a hundred so the first one went 51 basically because neither one would accept the best out of five or seven or 10 or whatever but to me it’s just and I I I’ve played with some great players all right Michael Jordan I’ll just list the top four Michael Jordan Scotty Pippen Tim Duncan David Robinson okay but what to me separates Michael from everybody and makes him the greatest player of all time was you want to call it mentality mental toughness I call it willing to win at all cost and when I say all cost I mean all cost and people I just don’t think quite understand what that means and I I always use the example it’s it’s somewhat humorous and people have heard this from me before but basically if you told Michael Jordan that he had to jump on the bus and run over his mother to win a championship he would not hesitate he would push you out of the way jump on that bus and drive over his mother and Not only would he do that he would put in reverse and then back over her to make sure he finished the job and then he would get off the bus look you in the eye and he would tell you if I didn’t do that the most disappointed person on this Earth would be my mother and that’s how he was brought up that’s what he what that’s what he’s learned and I I mean dude probably the most the biggest reason why the Chicago Bulls won six championships was because of Michael Jordan but was because of how competitive this guy was 247 our practices were knockdown drag out fights and when I say fights everybody knows there were a lot of fights in our practices punches fights not NBA fights like fights and that’s what made our teams so good plural teams was because we stepped on that floor every single night we were prepared and not not necessarily prepared mentally because we had to figure out how to beat the Detroit Pistons and that took a little while but physically because of how competitive our practices were and that guy’s desire to win championships okay and to bring everybody with him you can call him an [ __ ] whatever you want he was one he was a tough guy he was a tough teammate but if you truly understood and wanted the same thing he did you UND you knew what he was trying to accomplish and that’s what made our team so good and and LeBron has done that as well but just not to the same level as Michael that’s just my take on it plain and simple there you have it there you have it guys her here first we Purdue breaking it all down for us if you want the real about MJ you come to and listen I will say this there’s the caveat not that my opinion is changing but that those that have not ever seen Michael play in person and have only seen him on YouTube and have seen LeBron play and say LeBron’s the greatest I get it because you saw him play you’ve seen him play in person but and until you see Michael play in person and unfortunately now you can’t you can’t truly say that you know for certain that LeBron is the best player of all time I’ve I’ve been fortunate enough to play with Michael but also watch LeBron up close and personal play so I people will say well your opinion is Jaded because you played with him yeah I did but that’s what I’ve learned about him I mean I it’s I I think quite honestly to me this is a conversation it shouldn’t be about LeBron and MJ it should be about LeBron and Kobe that’s we’re gonna save that one for for another podcast because I I that I feel a way about that comparison I know but let me just let me close and I’ll I’ll shut up after this the mama mentality is as close to Michael as I’ve ever seen in a player and I’ll leave it at that okay okay we got have to get back to that we’re g we have to get we got a lot of conversations to have this off season you know to till the bulls start making some news we’re gonna have a lot of con different conversations I I believe that’ll that’ll be fun and entertaining for us and and as well as as the fans so uh thank you will Purdue Casey Johnson for being a part of this bull Talk podcast episode uh you guys thank you for listening and watching us and my fantastic beard that uh will will pointed out earlier in this episode thank you please give us a like rate review five stars please it helps us out a lot uh and make sure you’re subscribing to our YouTube we’re growing that aspect we’re putting more content our YouTube shorts there growing check it out you’re not going to be disappointed so we appreciate you guys mailback episode will be out next week so if you didn’t get your questions asked answered on last on the first part you will definitely get your questions answered on the second part which is coming out on next Tuesday so thank you guys for checking us out we’ll catch you guys next time peace all right now that’s over I want to tell you the three keys to being a real Chicago sports fan it takes guts sacrifice and downloading the NBC Sport Chicago app when there’s highlights you can pounce on them when there’s exclusive insights you listen and take notes and you won’t get blindsided with the push alerts so download it