In the history of the PGA tour, there have only been 12 rounds where players have shot under 60. There is only one person who has accomplished this feat more than once. Not only that, he also holds the record for shooting the lowest round in a PGA tour event, a 58 at TPC river highlands. This man is Jim Furyk, and I had the pleasure of interviewing him today. We learn about his mental approach and the voices he was hearing in his head when shooting these low scores, how he developed his unique swing, and his experience going head to head with Tiger in one of my favorite playoffs in golf history.
Jim Furyk
Twitter: https://twitter.com/jimfuryk
Foundation: https://jimandtabithafurykfoundation.com/
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0:00 Intro
1:05 Where Did Love of the Game Start?
3:17 What is Getting Lost in the Process?
6:18 Different Types of Practice
8:01 Advice for Young Players
9:20 Evolution of Jim’s Swing
11:46 Refining Vs Rebuilding
12:13 Fundamentals
16:56 Importance of Setup
23:50 Goals in Golf
27:07 Getting to the Next Level
30:34 Self Awareness
33:11 Getting there Vs Winning
35:56 Career Longevity
39:42 58 and 59
45:22 Bouncing Back
50:29 Recalling Good Shots
53:10 Visualization
59:17 Influential People
1:04:35 Golf Changes
1:10:33 How Tiger Changed the Game
1:14:50 2000 Tiger
1:16:12 Tiger Effect
1:21:03 Epic Playoff With Tiger
1:24:24 Hate Losing or Love Winning More?
in the history of the PJ tour there have
only been 12 rounds where players have
shot under 60 there’s only one person
who’s accomplished this feet more than
once not only that he holds the record
for shooting the lowest round in PJ Tour
event a 58 at TPC River Highlands this
man is Jim furick and I had the pleasure
of interviewing him today we learn about
his mental approach and the voices he
was hearing in his head when he was
shooting these low scores how he
developed his unique swing and his
experience going head-to-head with tiger
and one of my favorite playoffs in golf
history Jim furick Mr 58 2003 US Open
Champion welcome to the exponential
athlete podcast thank you again so much
for coming on yeah appreciate you having
me so you turned Pro I believe in 1992
yeah you joined the PJ tour in 1994 and
you’re still playing competitively now I
would imagine that you really love the
game if you’ve played for for that
period of time time can you talk to me a
little bit about where the love of golf
might have originated and also what
keeps you enjoying the process as you go
yeah I think um love AG go I was
introduced to the game by my father who
was a a golf professional and then he
was a a sales representative who sold
golf equipment um so I think he didn’t
really push me into the game he I played
football baseball basketball you know
anything with a ball bat glove you know
Sports was basically the heart of our
family and my mom’s a huge sports fan as
well um but you know him being around
the game and me having access made it a
lot of fun and I think um two things for
me I I think for a kid one golf wasn’t a
cool sport back in say 1980 or 1982 when
I was 12 years old and I kind of really
started to play a little bit more golf
but I had some friends that played I had
a guy named Cory Wright who you know in
the summertime we played golf every day
at our local municipal course um I
really got hooked on golf when I played
my first tournament um there was a
tournament at the end of the summer he
was playing in it he told me about it I
wanted to try and the idea that like you
could practice you know for two or three
weeks to try to get ready for this one
day and then go out there and perform I
mean that’s what we did in every other
sport right you practiced all week in
football you had a game on Saturday you
just kind of did it over and over again
well when golf when I had that for the
first time in golf I got hooked I think
also I’ve always enjoyed practicing I’ve
enjoyed trying to get better trying to
be the best version of myself and uh and
a lot of kids don’t want to sit out
there on the Range by themselves or you
know I could dump a bunch of shag balls
around a chipping green and find
different ways to hit it all the holes
out there on the chipping green and and
I could do that by myself and kind of
get lost in my own world and and just
creating and and uh hitting different
shots and so a lot of folks you know I
was I guess comfortable being out there
by myself and um I enjoy team sports I
enjoy uh uh still have some great
friends from playing high school
basketball uh that I dearly love but um
I was always comfortable being out there
by himself and playing an individual
Sport and just getting lost on the
practice practice tea practice green
whatever it may be can you explain a
little bit more about what you mean by
getting lost in in the process are you
playing are you making up games are you
yeah you know as simple as you know this
puts to win The Masters championship and
uh or finding ways to put stress on
yourself to perform better you know
playing games where I had to make so
many putts in a row before I could go
home um but really A lot of it was just
creating you know um I loved as a kid I
loved we had this one of the municipal
courses that I played at it’s called
Four Seasons and at the time they had I
mean to call it a chipping green would
be a big uh it’s a big jump it kind of
looked like a bowl I mean it was just
upside down Bowl uh and I would hit flop
shots to it chip and runs just I mean it
wasn’t the greatest green and I didn’t
have the greatest shag bag in the world
either as far as the balls you know it
was a mixture of a million different
kinds of balls but just hitting you know
Sand Wedge hitting seven iron whatever
shot I could kind of create to hit shots
with I did that for hours and uh the
different courses I played at as a kid
there’s still stories about me wearing
out putting greens and you know folks
seeing me tea off one and I’m hitting
bunker shots and they come around nine I
was still hitting bunker shots two hours
later um I just I I kind of enjoyed that
side of things um one of the you know
the third Club I joined at 16 years old
was named media Heights and it was a
country club a private club and you
could join there a junior could join
when they were 16 by themselves without
their parents and it was super
inexpensive I mean I think it was like
$600 for the season I think I got a $200
range membership so you know for $800 I
had all the golf I wanted but on the
weekends Juniors teed off after 2:00 I
believe which was kind of cool you know
I’d get out to the course around 10:00
or 11 in the morning I’d have 3 or 4
hours of time to kill and I’d work on my
short game I’d hit balls but I couldn’t
wait for 2 o’clock right 2011 I was
letting it fly on the first te and play
as much golf as I could until dark and
so um you know I and I had some good
friends there and a bunch of kids and
even adults that I played a lot of golf
with at media Heights and so um you know
if you weren’t a member at one of the
other private clubs in town all the good
Junior players then went to Media
Heights and so uh it was a lot of fun to
kind of hang out there and play some
games and and uh and get to meet some
really good members that eventually
actually were some of my sponsors get me
started that’s awesome well I love
hearing you talk about practice because
it seems like you still have the
enjoyment of it and it still sounds more
like you’re talking about a game than
you’re talking about a grind that’s
something that I think is really
interesting there is absolutely a grind
element to it but if you have this
Infinite Space where you can create
whatever shots you want you can make all
these games you want you can try all
these different things it’s a lot more
like play than it necessarily is like
this really hard work that a lot of
people describe it as and I I find that
to be a very interesting yeah uh vein C
can you talk a little bit about how
practice might be different when you’re
on the Range when you’re on the chipping
green versus when you’re on the golf
course so if you’re if you’re out there
trying to get better on the golf course
not in the tournament versus just sort
of grounding on the Range yeah I think a
good way I always View the driving range
is a bit of that was a little bit more
work I I’d sit out there and hit balls
for three hours if I had to but that
felt more like work than chipping and
putting was always just fun like
creative artistic um but I a good way
and I did it a lot as a kid you know to
especially when you have a cart but when
a kid you don’t have a cart but taking
two or three balls out and you know
hitting a couple drives off each te and
maybe trying to draw one trying to to
cut one trying to hit different shots
hit one high over the corner you know
turn around a corner um was a a really
useful way to practice I did a lot in
college as well you know throw two or
three balls down in a fairway and hit
some different shots in the greens um
you know I the driving range I probably
wasn’t as creative early in my career um
as much as I like to work the ball and
hit different shots high low draws cuts
um I I probably sat there and hit the
same shot over and over again so going
out on the golf course and seeing shots
and visualizing where I wanted the ball
to go and how I you know how I wanted to
get it to certain areas of the green uh
was a big deal for me and then
practicing some short shots and um you
know the hard part is then when the gun
goes off and you’re playing around for
score is you’re not practicing anymore
you kind of have to change the way
you’re thinking about things and and
then it becomes a matter of all right
we’re going to try to get the ball in
the hole we’re going to try to score and
I think so many young players I see them
on the Range and I see how
talented uh say uh the average
15-year-old Now versus the average
15-year-old when I grew up is so far
ahead the technology the teaching skills
the athlete is so far ahead of where we
were at 15 but they get caught up in
swing mechanics they get caught up in
technique they get caught up in a lot of
different things and the ones who
understand they still have to learn how
to play manage the golf course move the
ball around the course they succeed but
there’s so many kids that they just
think well if I can strike it better if
I can swing better if I can make my
swing look like Rory’s if I can make my
swing look like Scotty Sheffer that you
know I’m going to get to the next level
but you still have to learn that part of
you know every kid that goes to play
division one golf’s a pretty darn good
ball Striker a pretty good player but
the ones that really learn how to get
the ball in the hole and how to score
and how to trust themselves uh they’re
the ones that get to the next level on
the PGA tour um and so I I see a lot
lack of that I think I had good advice
as a kid I had good um you know I was I
was really interested in how many and
not how and I think that also it’s one
of the reasons uh my swing probably
looks a little bit more like it does too
one of the one of the many reasons my
swing looks like it does well let’s talk
about your golf swing a little bit what
what has been the evolution of your golf
swing so how did it start out I mean
obviously is uniquely your own swing
yeah my eyes my eyes were always my
father so my dad was my teacher I think
he probably took a little heat when I
was a kid that my swing looked a lot
different um you know stories have been
told about college coaches saying man I
can’t wait to get Jim to college I love
to change that swing you know that
that’s not the guy we’re looking for I
think my dad realized
early uh and I I’ll take like a harvey
pck who taught Ben khaw and Tom Kite two
opposite players I don’t know any more
of a field player than Ben and I don’t
know any more of a mechanical player
than Tom um I admire both of them and
what I find amazing about Mr
pck is here here’s a guy who had a
fourth grade education but was a genius
yeah in teaching the game and he was
able to teach Ben through feel and knew
that’s how he learned he was able to
teach Tom through mechanics and
understood that’s how he learned well my
dad realized at a very early age that I
wasn’t very mechanically inclined for me
it was about feel hitting shots you know
if I was hitting a kind of a low slice
we were going to go out there and work
on hitting High draws and he had a way
of communicating with me you know to to
get me to do that that and and kind of
get me out of some bad habits and and
get me working in in the right direction
and so uh my swing was early in my
career extremely upright I mean if you
think it’s upright now or it was upright
when I was a rookie we’ll say because it
it was even more upright 25 years ago
than it is now well when I was a kid it
was over top of my head I mean I was so
off plane on the back swing and we just
kind of slowly
refined uh I I guess the fundamentals
would say I worked harder on what I did
before I even drew the club back
throughout my whole career than I think
anyone in golf I really firmly believe
that you know by the time I got to the
PGA Tour my swing was pretty much my
thumb print I think Bruce litzky told my
dad that when when I was in college that
you know your son’s at a certain age now
where he has to refine the skills that
he has he has to make him more
repetitive and make what he has better
you can’t break down what he’s got and
change it and it was something that
always stuck in my dad’s head always
stuck in my head that anytime we started
to maybe get off track maybe I started
to get off track dad would remind me if
Dad started to get off track teaching me
like well you thought about trying this
and I’d say hey that’s not how we’ve
always done it let’s let’s stay down the
path we are let’s refine the
fundamentals that I have and so I worked
on my grip my ball position my posture
my I mean I do things a little bit
different but fundamentally if you put
all that together and I could repeat
that swing I could get the club face
back to square and you and uh and there
was a time in my career where I probably
did that better than anyone for about 10
years where the club face stayed really
Square Through The Hitting Zone and I
hit the ball very straight and at the
Target and and kept it in front of me
and uh and that was one of my
strengths it’s it’s very interesting to
hear you talk about the fundamentals
because every athlete I’ve studied
particularly Kobe Bryant has stressed
how important the fundamentals are and
how in the current World of Sports we
generally deviate pretty dramatically
from the fundamentals a lot about
fancier things and and less about the
core of what that is can you describe to
me what the fundamentals are in Gulf
that you believe is it just like
positioning setup and those types of
things or are there other core areas of
that that essentially you need to work
on that are essentially Universal across
all great golfers yeah you know there’s
a lot of different ways to do it in golf
I mean I could look at different golf
swings um you know from and Adam Scott
who uh has a beautiful golf swing pretty
weak grip a lot of rotation in his swing
uh with that he hits the ball really
hard um and then you look at a guy maybe
like Paul ainger Who I Really admired
really strong grip not a lot of rotation
in a
swing
um those fundamentals are going to be a
little different I guess um there’s for
me I guess it starts you your setup
you’re looking at your your grip your
posture your ball position um you know I
I worked on on
just uh the way I walked into the ball
my pre-shot routine exactly how I was
going to step to try to get in the exact
same positions before I drew the club
back I always felt like when I hit my
you know in the heart of my career when
I hit a really poor shot I felt like I
made a mistake before I even drew the
club back and that my swing was
repetitive enough and good enough that I
wasn’t going to hit anything crazy
unless I just put myself in a bad
position to start and then I had to try
to manipulate a swing to get there and
so um I tried to keep things very simple
usually having like one setup key one
swing thought I probably rotated about
five of those around you know and had
combinations for what I needed at the at
the time but um you know fundamentally
speaking I’m probably the wrong guy to
talk to and that um I didn’t watch my
swing on film very often I had fluff
film my swing once in a while and I
would send it to my dad just to take a
peek as a checkpoint on the road uh once
we had iPhones before that it was just
giv him a call you know on the phone
from the Pro Shop basically and and or
from the clubhouse saying hey here’s
what I’m working on here’s what I’m
seeing what he you know we had a way of
communicating and talking to each other
that was very productive uh if he wasn’t
out on the road and and uh but I think
you have your your your setup keys and
then you also have your your golf swing
keys and so for me you know I was a guy
that that really didn’t have a lot of
rotation in my swing my club face stayed
very Square um on the back swing Square
through the hitting area now some people
actually might call that shut like
depending everyone’s got a different
idea like I don’t believe that toe up is
square like I feel like that’s open but
it all depends on your grip and it all
depends on the kind of Swing you have um
for Davis Love and for Adam Scott you
know halfway back having the toe you
know face basically 90 degrees and the
toe pointing at the sky that square for
me that would be wide open i’ I’d have
no chance hitting a shot from there
there’s not one right or wrong it’s just
a different style of of golf swing and
so uh you know for me I think like
watching a Paul ainger swing watching a
guy that’s kind of more Square to Square
or some people call it shut to square is
is kind of the way I understand that
golf swing I understand from there you
have to kind of rotate excuse me rotate
through uh with your body um like
watching Colin morawa a lot you know he
has a bit of a weak grip but from there
he gets it kind of bowed at the back you
see that with Dustin Johns and you see
that with Brooks kka I understand those
swings I guess a lot you know guys that
uh I I’m not a a guy that kind of rolls
this way on the way back or gets you
know here I understand this position a
lot more in the
face uh being a little down you know
being being tilted halfway back so um
just listening to this people understand
like I know how I want it to feel I know
how I want it to look uh and I really
haven’t spent a lot of time studying
other folks swings but um the ones I
understand the most are the guys that
are a little bit shut on the way back uh
I still call it square but a little shut
on the way back uh and rotating their
body on the way through and if you look
at my swing that’s kind of how it it
always was that makes sense well I I was
chuckling a little bit earlier because
you said you were talking about how
important it is uh essentially the setup
to be the same position every time when
I was interviewing Shane Shane Bader he
was saying the same thing the number one
thing he could do was be in the right
position on the
court essentially if you’re not in the
right position to start with everything
else can can go right you can’t evaluate
what is going wrong so at least from the
you know few conversations I’ve had it
seems like putting yourself in the
position to succeed is almost one of the
most important things universally across
all sports
related to that is you had mentioned
your pre-shot routine before I was
wondering if you could take me through
what that’s like physically what you’re
doing but also what’s going through your
head in that process to me that is
something that is maybe different from a
lot of other sports because there’s so
much so much less it has so much less of
a dynamic nature uh but I’m interested
again in what your process might be
there I don’t think enough people
practice that part of the game on the
driving range I see folks even if they
have an Aiming or alignment you know
device on on the ground an Aiming stick
a club an umbrella whatever it may be
you see them kind of rake a ball in set
up let it fire rake a ball in set up Let
the ball fire but you don’t do that when
you play golf on the course and I feel
like early in my career I was guilty on
this my dad always wanted something on
the ground for me to practice with um
and then through the heart of my career
when I was playing my best I always had
a string line an Aiming stick there was
always something on the ground and and I
think the reason for that really is I I
went to once I had a wrist surgery in 04
I had to start practicing a little bit
different I had to be more efficient and
I had to kind of go more quality over
quantity and I realized that I was
taxing my body a lot less and I actually
became a much better ball Striker at
that point because I learned how to
practice well and I learned how to be
efficient and I learned to really
practice that pre-shot routine if I
after my first wrist surgery the the
doctor put me on a little bit of a a
shot count and I was only allowed to for
a while he said I could go play as much
golf as I wanted because you weren’t
going to hit enough balls in a day to to
tax your wrist but if I sat there on the
Range and beat balls for two or three
hours that was going to be a problem and
so he gave me 25 balls on the Range a
day to get ready for the Tournament of
Champions in
uh trying to think I had the resurgery
no4 came back to us open but I also hurt
another wrist I hurt the right wrist
going into 2000 the tournament champions
and I was on a 25 ball shot count there
and uh I won that tournament uh going in
practicing after two or three months off
and practicing with 25 balls a day for a
couple weeks I ground over those 25
shots like I was already in the US Open
like I was working hard and with that I
really worked hard on my pre-shot
routine I really worked hard on my setup
you know exact how it was getting to the
ball and you said take you through it I
guess in the heart of my
career
um I want to stress it doesn’t have to
take a minute and a half like some like
some guys you watch on TV it can really
take you know 40 seconds or less I think
now you know I was a little slow around
the greens early in my career late in my
career I became a pretty quick player
and right now I’m actually a very fast
player um so it can be done uh in a
quicker fashion but I think I started
from behind the ball probably you know
eight feet behind the ball I saw the
shot I wanted to hit and for me I picked
out a finishing Target like it’s really
imperative for me I’m not a guy that
like a starting Target if I if I was on
the Range and I said all right I’m going
to start at that tree and turn
it that my brain doesn’t work that way I
need to know exactly where I want the
ball to finish doesn’t always have to be
right at the pin it doesn’t have to be
the center of the Fairway I might be
trying to hit his side of the Fairway I
might be trying to hit center of the
green when the pin’s right just because
that’s the correct shot but I need to
have a finished Target and so I really
needed to focus in on that’s where I
want the ball to
land um I’ve already processed what the
wind’s doing and how I’m going to get it
there so now I’m seeing the shot and I’m
like all right in order to get the ball
to land there with the shot I’m trying
to hit the ball’s got to start in this
area and I’m immediately going back to
my finish Target and then I walk into
the B I walk into the
ball um I’ve got the shot that I want to
hit in mind I’m committed to that shot
at this point and then it’s just a
matter of how am I going to set up and
and I would walk to the
ball as everyone knows I stand very
close to it so I’d kind of measure a
little bit left hand would almost be
touching my left thigh and my feet would
be dead together you know ball would be
basically adjacent to my left toes and
from there uh I would take my steps so I
would usually
go uh left for Left Foot first right
foot second kind of get square and I’d
have to make sure like sometimes I’d be
getting a little Clos sometimes be
getting a little open so I’d always be
working on staying Square in those
steps
um and then there’ always be something I
was working on in my setup like it might
be posture it might be so I would really
hone in on that one thing every shot um
and when you get under pressure when you
get nervous it’s amazing how how how
quickly you can forget that one thing
you know you just get you get so locked
into trying to hit a good shot and you
forget about the process of doing it so
there was always one setup key that I’d
allow myself to think about it might be
ball position it might be posture it
might be grip it might be something that
I was really hyperfocused on every week
and I would think about that and then
I’d usually have one swing key and kind
of for me it would be a little bit of a
uh not necessarily deep breath but a
breath to kind of catch myself and think
all right the one thing you’re thinking
about in your golf swing right now is
this and I’d let it fly and so it was
always the same process the same
movement over and over again that swing
key and that setup key could always
change but I tried to keep it really
simple I tried to always keep it to one
and uh I read a quote by Byron Nelson
when I was younger that if he had one
swing thought he felt like you know he
had a great chance to win if he had two
swing thoughts you know he had a chance
maybe to play well he said if he had
three swing thoughts he probably didn’t
have much chance so uh I tried to keep
it simple and tried to get you know on
the Range enough reps to wear I had a
lot of confidence in that swing thought
that if I could take it to the course
uh that one thought and trust it you
know because I hit the shots on the
Range I hit the shots you know in my
practice rounds and knew that that was
what was going to get me around that
week it was kind of a calming effect and
and uh I kind of trusted myself and and
had confidence I like that a lot I
something I’ve been very interested in
is intermediary goals and it seems like
a lot of the focus in golf is not
necessarily hey I want to shoot 65 today
or whatever it is it’s you have to have
a goal for every shot you have to have
something that you can do in every shot
to get to that goal and it all lines up
to eventually shooting a low number I’m
more interested broadly in your goals
related to golf so maybe at what age did
you start having goals related to your
performance and what did those goals
look like and how did maybe they evolve
over time it’s a very large question I
think in high school you know I I wrote
down and you know I want to win this
tournament this tournament this I want
to win the State High School
Championship I want to do this I want to
do that and they were all the goals that
I put out there were all very
shortterm and very much focused on
results and then as I got older in my
career I think my father was really good
at you know I was a senior in college
and I still had those short-term goals
and I had a really bad junior year in
college and didn’t play very well I came
back my senior year kind of you know
thinking a little bit that it was a
little bit of a make or break year that
you know if I was going to turn pro I I
needed to kind of turn things around and
play well my senior year and uh he asked
me kind of leaving for college like what
are your goals and I said well you know
i’ want to make like all conference I’d
like to be an allamerican I’d like you
know and you know talked about maybe
winning tournaments and and he went well
I mean do you really think I don’t know
who he picked out he goes you really
think Fred Couples gives a [ __ ] if you
make all conference this year and I was
like I’m sorry and he said you know I
think your goals are so short term and
they’re so focused on now he said you’re
you’re going to want to turn pro in a
year or less than a
year why why wouldn’t your goals be more
focused on how are we going to get to
that next level how are we going to
become a professional player what do I
need to work on now to get ready for the
future and he was the first time that he
really got me focused more on thinking
about what I had to do to to go to the
next level and I had a really good
senior year I played
solid um didn’t make all American didn’t
accomplish the the immediate things I
was thinking about but really gave
myself a lot of confidence in my game
and which where it was headed and and uh
thought I had an opportunity to play at
the next level and so from that point on
it was always kind of looking around you
know I played on that first summer
played some mini tours uh went to school
Q school and in the fall of 92 I was
still going back to get my degree um I
made it to finals but played very poorly
in finals so I had a conditional card on
what’s now the corn fairy it was a Nike
tour at the time um and then you know
just kind
of I guess beat it around there um
played uh that first year I had to Mone
to qualify because I wasn’t in every
event you know I got in some didn’t get
in others um but through about 10 events
I made enough money where I kind of got
my status up I started to getting in
everything and and then I won an event
that year and and lost a playoff in
another and and kind of got my my status
up in a good spot but
um I guess I got off track a little bit
with how
uh with where we’re going so what were
the things that you needed to do to get
to the next level you felt consistency I
always talked to my dad about being more
consistent even when I was a rookie on
tour I had two chances to win that year
early in the year in Tucson and late in
the year in Vegas I had chances to win I
think I finished fifth and seventh and I
it was a boost like I knew like okay I’m
I’m actually good enough to win out here
I could have won today um I knew I was I
knew I have a lot of experience but I
also knew that the best players in the
world at that time you know Greg Norman
and Nick price were the best players in
the world they were doing it more often
they were getting in contention all the
time they had
opportunities uh and they got very
comfortable uh being in those positions
because they were there and I I kind of
wanted to figure
out okay how do I become more consistent
how do I do it more often and I just
looked around I guess I was always
really good at identifying
why other players were better than me I
mean I knew the experience I knew they
knew the golf courses better they were
more experienced they were more
comfortable being in those positions and
that was going to be take time but what
parts of their game I didn’t feel like I
drove it straight enough my rookie year
I didn’t feel like my consistency with
my golf swing was there um I knew when I
was hitting it well and when I was
playing well I could play with anyone I
thought but I just didn’t do it often
enough and I really needed to work um I
felt like
like the products that I was playing and
the technique I was using for say shots
from like 70 to 12 yards I identified
really quickly that that was an area
that
one if I’m not going to be a power
hitter that’s going to be a place I’m
going to need to be really good at two I
watched some of the pros that were you
know veterans and watched how they hit
those shots and realized that they hit
him a lot better than I did and so I
think I was good at identifying what I
wanted to get better at my
father uh was pretty good at teaching
and explaining how we were going to get
to the next level and then I didn’t mind
putting the work in and and uh and
grinding on it and so you know five
years into to my professional career I
was one of the best in the world from 70
to 120 yards that that was my calling
card and and where when I played on ryer
Cup teams and President’s Cup
teams you know I played with you know
say Phil and tiger and I’d watch him hit
a two iron and like bomb it over a tree
and stop it on a green and be thinking
man I wish I could do that but I knew I
couldn’t but everyone had something they
were really good at on the team you know
and could do crazy Phil would do crazy
things around the greens and you know
tiger seemed to have the full package in
a lot of things but there were always
places where guys were better I mean
Chad Campbell the way he hit iron shots
and the way they sounded and the
crispness was was pretty cool and we all
found our Niche my Niche was hitting wet
shots and having guys come to me and
saying all right how do you flight the
ball like that what makes you know you
hit it lower than I do it spins a little
bit more I like the way it sounds you
control the spin on the greens you and
so we would just all talk together about
techniques and ideas and and so I I
learned so much from friends on those
teams and also learned that no one
really had everything we were all good
at something which was a big confidence
boost for me that you know don’t have
you don’t have the full package anyone
no one has the full package but you
really use your strengths as much as you
possibly can to uh to boost your game
become the best you can yeah well I
think the self-awareness is something a
lot of people Overlook and realizing
where can I maximize what are going to
be my limitations in certain areas I
think that’s very hard to do especially
with people coming up where you have to
balance that with the Supreme confidence
that you can win every single week or
that you can compete with the best
players in the world to me that
is a very difficult mental equation sure
to to keep up with because those things
can be uh contradictory some sense I
think too often I understand your
approach and I think too often like I
realized that okay I don’t hit it as far
as you know I when I went to college I
was long and wild when I came out of
college I was pretty average length and
getting straighter and going to the tour
that’s what you did back then when you
went to the tour you’d actually reduce
your distance to hit more Fairways
because it was imperative now with
equipment with the athlete bigger
stronger faster you would never do that
you’d just launch it and and uh it’s a
totally different style but I think
trying to make your weaknesses you you
have two ways to improve and you’re
going to wait make if you can make a
weakness a strength or you can make your
weaknesses stronger you’re going to
improve right or or you use your
strengths and make them better as well
but you
can’t by trying to get longer by trying
to uh make some of my strengths or
weaknesses better if I did that at the
expense of the strength like if I
started using products
that you know went higher spun less went
farther but now in the same time I’m
taking away from my short game or I’m
taking away from my 70 to 120 yards it’s
counterproductive the extra the extra
eight to 10 yards I’m getting off the te
doesn’t outweigh what I’m losing around
the greens and the shots that I’m losing
from 70 to 120 so um I did that once in
my career in 2011 and kind of swore I’d
never do something like that but of
course you know I let it creep in tried
to find a way to get better and and
actually you know had a very you know in
my in my perspective a very poor year in
2011 so uh I kind of writed the ship and
came out strong in in 2012 with uh some
products that fit me a little bit better
and and uh and went to work on you know
what what I was good at and got my
strengths back to where they were so I
loved what you were saying rewinding
just a little bit about consistency as
being a goal and putting yourself into
the equation as much as possible again
something I I’ve realized from reading
and listening to a lot of podcasts is
you can’t really control if someone has
a better day than you do someone
inevitably might shoot 60 out there they
just are better than you that day but
what you can control is if you were in
the equation and if you put yourself in
the equation enough times then you’ll
likely win and as long as you can
execute in the equation same thing with
you for example I’m I’m studying Michael
Phelps right now and he never once set a
goal to to beat other people he set
goals based on times that he would swim
so beating World Records beating these
types of things but those are something
he had complete control over in the pool
whereas on the other hand you can’t
control if someone out swims you that
day if you if you make a world record
and they also uh break a world record
and beat you that’s you you’ve given
your best shot in that sense I did so
many interviews throughout my career
where folks ask me what are your goals
for this year and I see a lot of young
Pros actually write you know like
they’ll even tweet like their top 10
list for their goals for the year I I
used to I think infuriate some people by
saying I just want to be I want my goal
for this year is 12 months from now I
want to look back and say I’m a better
I’m a more complete player than I was 12
months ago that literally was my goal
for the first 15 years of my career I
just want to I want to be better better
version of you yeah and I really
never for me it wasn’t I wanted to win
tournaments don’t get me wrong but it
was always about just being the best
version of me I I realized
that um I wanted to work as hard as I
could I wanted to squeeze every ounce
out of my career that I possibly could I
mean you’re never going to do it right
you’re you’re going to uh have some wins
and losses and and and take it and
stride this game beats you up pretty
good but I wanted to squeeze everything
I could have could out of my career and
and just be the best version of Jim
furick I could be and and uh and get
better every year and I feel like
most years I did most years I felt like
I did become a more complete player and
better you you’re always going to take a
couple steps back 2011 was one of those
where I took a step back but after one
of my best Years or or my best year of
my career in
2010 so it seems like part of being a
better version of yourself as being more
consistent and I think you essentially
exemplified that you won every year on
tour from 1998 to 2003 if I remember
correctly which is a pretty long streak
consistent streak of winning each year
which as I’ve studied more athletes I’m
realizing I actually find good play over
a long period of time more impressive
than short Spurs a really good play
because I realize how many variables go
into maintaining performance over time
because your body changes your mind
changes you lose motivation you use a
lot of you lose a lot of those things do
you think your approach to to setting
goals of being a better version of
yourself is something that gave you
longevity or are there other things that
you believe have made it so that you can
compete at a high level for a long
period of
time well
um I think really staying
true like when I think back of years
that I was when I was pretty fortunate
with my health I had two rist surgeries
one in 04 and one in 16 neither of which
really was a huge hindrance just a you
know lost some time say six months
um but I I think staying really true to
who I was and how I played the game and
not changing things you know always
trying to find ways to get better
whether that was through equipment
whether a little technique here and
there learning another
shot um honing in on a you know you know
my putting whatever it may be always
trying to find a way but really always
staying true to the way I played in 2011
I got away from that I I kind of went
with a driver ball combo that’s a good
products but maybe didn’t fit and I was
kind of warned a little bit and I wanted
to hit the ball a little higher I wanted
to hit a little farther I was trying to
you know I was coming off the best year
of my career and trying to find a way I
won three times I was Player of the Year
something that I probably would have
never imagined you know would have
happened to me as a rookie in
94 um and then all right was kind of the
oh [ __ ] moment like all right I just had
the best year of my career now what how
you going to get better and so you know
I started looking at my weaknesses I hit
a little farther I want to do this I
want to do that and I kind of got away
from the things that made me the best
version of myself and halfway through
the 2011 year I was going you know this
just you know this isn’t me and I wasn’t
really putting my finger on it why like
I didn’t realize that you know I was
really struggling with the lack of Spin
and the higher launch and just the
ball’s in a different window than where
I’m used to seeing it and and I’m trying
to put the ball in the same window and
it doesn’t want to go there it’s not the
way it was built and so you know I’m
kind of hitting the ball a little more
crooked I’m my stats weren’t bad wasn’t
like all a sudden I went from hitting
74% of the fairways to now was at 62 I
mean know it was a little fall off you
know a few percents the problem was the
misses were bigger and those big misses
were each day I was having a hole where
I made a double or I put myself in a
position where it was just ruining
around and and so it took me a while
that year I squeaked onto the
President’s Cup team and funny enough I
got paired with Phil Nicholson who you
who really never played a ball that spun
a ton but at the time he was playing a
Callaway ball that
spun an amazing amount I mean it
probably too much for him but we were
playing an alternate shot and I was
messing around with his ball in practice
over at Royal Melbourne and all of a
sudden the ball went right back into the
window I saw it like I was hitting these
kind of flighted shots with spin it was
windy I could flight the ball down and
in that one week my game just kind of
turned around like I I played five
matches and at four of them I played
really really well and uh it like it hit
me that you you’re I was an idiot like
I’m I’m thinking how did I let that go
for 10 months and not realize that I put
myself in Jeopardy by by what I was
doing and uh immediately switch products
and and got a ball again like a really
high spinny golf ball because that’s
what I’ve always played in my career
that uh I could kind of flight down and
and get it in the window I wanted and it
allowed my swing to kind of uh work the
way it always had and and uh you know
went on a nice tear through 12 13 14 15
where I played really well well speaking
of those years you played really well
you shot two of the lowest rounds or the
two low the two lowest rounds ever on
the PJ tour during that period so 58 and
59 I was wondering if you could walk me
through what those experiences were like
are they different than normal rounds of
golf or are they a lot of the same and
just things go
right I think I’ve I’ve gotten those
positions even early in my career where
things are going really well and you get
on a run where Ball’s going in I
shot I think 10 under in Flint when I
was a a rookie I shot 10 under at Durado
one day when it was really windy um
where I got in and guys thought it was a
mistake on the scoreboard I went from
five over to five under in a day and
they’re like yeah they definitely messed
something up on the scoreboard um it’s
funny no matter what there’s there’s
days one of the best rounds I’ve ever
seen I ground my rear end off at Riviera
one day in some wind to shoot 74 or 75
and Cory paven shot 64 and I was a
rookie on tour thinking I it’s literally
impossible I don’t know how anyone shot
that score on this golf course in that
wind it was crazy but someone always
finds a way on the PJ tour that’s you
know someone always finds a way to make
some putts get the ball in the hole and
shoot a really low round and and when
you’re that guy when you get on that
kind of heater and Things Are going well
and you’re clicking on all cylinders and
really physically you’re you’re the the
best version of you for that day it all
becomes a mental Battle of how to you
know the 59 and the 58 were very similar
I shot eight under on my first nine I
got off to Quick starts on the back nine
where it just kept going in the hole and
then you hit a point where it’s just
like trying to break 90 For the First
Time 80 for the first time 70 for the
first time it’s just like trying to
break 60 for the first time where um
it’s a mental battle and um I I would a
lot of that credit I would say would go
to Doc Rotella at this point because I
did these I I played these amazing
rounds basically at the age of 43 and
46 not when you’d expect that would
happen um but I also started working
with Doc probably when I was about 42
and so a lot of his messaging and we
talked about it a little ear earlier in
this podcast um some of the words I use
or some of the words that you know he
talks to me about uh it’s a lot about
the process and so he is
so so
into you know the one shot at a time
staying super focused in the process of
hitting that next shot and then letting
it go and work going to the next one and
um I think I had you know I think I had
Tabitha’s voice in my head I had my
dad’s voice in my head I had doc
Rotella’s voice in my head head on the
on the back nine in both those rounds it
becomes such a mental battle and I’m
talking to myself and trying to just
stay in the moment I mean we know we’re
you know on the verge of breaking a
barrier um and so trying to stay in the
moment and focus on all right I need to
get this drive in the Fairway and put it
in this position and what’s it going to
take to do that and then hitting the
shot trying not you know everyone’s
yelling and they’re you know 58 59
there’s there was a buzz on the golf
course course galleries were growing um
you know in one sense when I was playing
with I was playing with Gary Woodland
and uh
um gwood and uh duffner when I shot the
59 at Conway and we had a hold up on one
t and I went to like where they were at
to go talk to them and they dispersed I
mean it was like no one was going to
talk to the pitcher it was thrown a no
no they they I I had to like hunt one of
them down to talk about something and I
was tight like I needed someone to talk
talk to just to just to to loosen up and
they didn’t want to say a word at that
time so it it really it becomes just a
mental barrier and and so staying in
that moment and thinking about process
over result is it becomes really
difficult and I think both times I kind
of had to pinch myself I I wasn’t sure
you never really thought I’d have the
opportunity to break 60 in a PJ Tour
event and so I remember telling myself
at Conway the last three or four holes
like this may never happen again if such
a cool experience like just enjoy it
like have fun with it you know have a
smile on your face and and go enjoy the
[ __ ] out of this because it may never
happen again and then it did in Hartford
and I kind of had another smile on my
face said well okay proba this SP won’t
happen again let’s enjoy it and it hit
me that you know you’ve got a chance to
um you know make history and do
something that no one else on the the
tour has ever done as far as a number at
58 and and uh you know not Everything
went perfect down the stet CCH as far as
uh I made a couple shaky swings one on
the 17th t for sure and it reminded me
that uh I kind of got outside myself for
a swing as a shot that I hit in the
water earlier in the week and I made a
very timid swing off the 17th te on that
Sunday and uh I just I told myself at
that moment I’m I may go down but I’m
going down in flames I’m being
aggressive uh making good golf swings
and making aggressive swings the rest of
the way in and and uh actually had a
pretty decent puff for Birdie on 18 that
somehow got to the hole I don’t know I’m
I’m actually proud that I got the the
the putt for 57 to the hole I had about
a one foot comeback putt for 58 I love
it Al so I’m interested you you
described essentially on
17 how you talked yourself out of that
essentially I made this this poor swing
I’m going to be aggressive in the
opposite side of that when things do go
wrong in the golf course even outside of
of the low rounds what is your process
for recovering from let’s say you wipe
one in the water I mean think yeah for
example Ludwig uh at the Masters this
past week hit one in the water on uh I
think it was 15 11 on 11 yeah was that
early in the round yeah um how does he
like how does someone in that position
reconcile that I think it’s I I mean
it’s
probably actually he played really well
on the way in from there amazing what
he’s been able to do uh such a young age
um I I think in a big moment when you’re
trying to win a tournament and knowing
that that might have cost you the event
is a lot harder you know in the
scenarios with me you know I’m second
round or even in the fourth round
shooting 58 I wasn’t trying to win a
golf tourament it was just it was
basically me versus the golf course at
that time
um uh when I made mistakes when I hit
bad shots I
think it was brought to my attention by
someone else but I I think think I guess
I just did it naturally I’d always go
back and make a practice swing like I
would think about the shot I just hit
even if it was a putt and I’d go back in
my mind like okay and I was thinking
what did I do wrong there how am I going
to fix it and then I would make a
practice swing that would kind of
reassure myself that like all right next
time I’m not going to do that I got it
but it was kind of
a I guess either you’re in shock you’re
upset with yourself you feel bad for
yourself I mean there’s an immediate
reaction is you know the oh [ __ ] shock
part of it and then I think you have to
kind of manage a situation slow things
down think about what happened did I
make a mistake did I did I make a
mistake before I pulled the club back
you know was that uh poor course
management was that uh did I make a
mistake in my setup did I make a mistake
in my swing did I get quick like kind of
process what happened and then for me
the next the practice swing was the fix
like all right and then it had you you
had to flush it it had to leave your
mind and uh and so that that was kind of
the way I I process things and I needed
to
um I didn’t always do it very well but
when I did it well when I was able to
recover when I was able to win or do
good things uh after a moment like that
it was because I was able to get rid of
it kind of a you know a little bit of a
corner back mentality but in order for
me to let it go I had to feel like I
knew the fix like I knew this is what I
think went wrong this is how I’m going
to solve that issue and now it’s gone
out of my head and the next shot I’m
going to be totally clear and focused on
the goal for the next shot when I wasn’t
able to do that it tended to drag out
and it tended to bother me throughout
the rest of the round and I would drop a
shot here or there just because I I
mentally hadn’t Let It Go and so I think
that’s good for bad days uh you you’re
going to have bad days bad weeks
whatever it may be in golf um I actually
just talked to my son about this um you
know his he he plays lacrosse and his
team had a bad game and he wasn’t happy
about with you know the way he played
and I said man I’ve been there I’ve had
bad weeks I’ve had bad rounds I’ve had
you know 2011 and I said whether you
want to hear it or not here’s how I
processed it you know I I uh you know I
had to I always went through the emotion
of upset or feeling bad and then it went
to I was pissed off and then I went to
okay finally break it down what went
wrong and then I went to how am I going
to fix it and then it was just well I’m
ready to go to work like let’s get to
the practice tea let’s get to The
Putting Green Let’s and at that point it
was gone like I had once I made a plan
for how I was going to fix it I my mind
was clear at that point I was always
really good at getting rid of the bad
and figuring out how to move forward and
that that process could take a while
like losing a US Open that might be a
week you know it might be two weeks but
I was always good at getting rid of it
and then it just not haunting me so I
you getting rid of the bad in a very
similar way as I view remembering the
good so one of the things I’ve been
studying is using psychological distance
to uh get way and look at bad things
that happened objectively so you hit
this bad shot if you’re looking at
yourself from a bird’s eye view or if
you’re watching someone else do that
you’re objectively diagnosing what’s
going wrong and you’re able to say okay
this time this next time we do this in a
different
way you can also if you have a really
good memory zoom into that even closer
and try to remember all of the feelings
you had associated with that is that
something that you do uh in your own
game for example I know tiger is always
able to call a shot that he hit really
well from a similar situation is that
something that’s Universal or is that
something that’s maybe more unique to to
him on that side uh no I think so I
think that’s why guys go back to certain
courses you know like uh for me it might
be harbort toown and I might not be
playing particularly well going in
Harbor Town but man I’m excited to step
on the grounds there I’ve hit so many
good shots I’ve won a couple times had
opportunties to win probably three or
four others um I feel good around that
play so there was times I would go into
that event and maybe be working with you
know my B and C game at the time but lo
and behold give me two or three days
around that place and just seeing the
shots and remembering good things like I
I have good events like that would an
event like that could turn a year around
because it would it just brought back
good memories it brought back good shots
it brought back a lot of confidence and
it got me kind of funneled into those
things so I think everyone I think
that’s why there’s horses for courses I
think that’s why um there are places
that almost every player when they step
on those grounds you know if they’re
playing really well going in there
they’re like oh man I could win this
week and if they’re not playing
particularly well they’re like you know
what this I contend I I yeah this is
this is a place I like and you just go
in with a a good feeling I think on the
on the flip side you know the the way
you
mentioned kind of the the bad let’s say
uh I had events where maybe there’s a
certain t- shot that just drives me
crazy I think every course has got a t-
shot for everyone that they feel like
all right I got to get through this t-
shot and let’s say on Thursday and
Friday I hit poor t- shots on that hole
maybe I was trying to hit a cut it just
the hole looks like a cut and but yet I
tried to hit that shot for two days and
I didn’t hit it very well man Saturday
I’m probably stepping on that te and I’m
hitting a different shot I’m hitting it
low I’m hitting a draw I’m I’m just
going to completely like in my mind I’m
not going to continue to beat down the
door and try to hit the same shot I have
for two days uh and prove to myself I
can do it at that at that point like one
of the days Saturday Sunday I’m I’m
moving to a different shot I’m gonna hit
a draw I’m gonna hit a three-wood I’m
gonna I’m GNA do something different
that just gives me a positive outlook
let’s just try something different
instead of you know the the I guess you
know the the stupid just trying the same
thing over and over again you know
expecting a different result you know
you’ve already got it in your mind that
I’ve tried this shot and hit it poorly
let’s do something else and give
yourself a positive outlook like that
mixup and changing things so rewinding
just a little bit a lot of that stuff we
were describing might be under what a
lot of people would consider a
visualization bucket MH do you use
visualization in any way or when you’re
seeing the shots or when you’re thinking
about what you’d like to accomplish
things along those lines or is that
something that is not necessarily how
you approach things I don’t
see I guess if you said do you visualize
I’d say well of course I do but then if
you really honed in on what are you
seeing I think on the
green
I’m I can kind of see where I want the
ball to start how it’s going to curve
and where it’s going to go in the hole
and and if I really honed in on it I
worked with with Doc on this a lot where
I can see the whole line I almost have
to start from the hole and say it’s
going to enter from there and it’s going
to start here and then I can kind of
connect the middle and I kind of see in
my mind for one reason another that
Line’s always in
White and the fatter I can make that
line the better because when it’s you
know a string line you feel like you
have to be so perfect you know if I can
get that line where it’s like an inch
thick it feels a lot better because I
feel like I’ve got a little margin of
air it’s it’s freeing um but like in the
GOL
swing and I guess even in putting taking
what I can see like all right I see I
cut into this hole and I you know I’m
going to start it over here at this tree
it’s going to finish
but it’s not as much like I can see
exactly where the ball is it’s more in
my mind it’s a it’s more a feel like
what
is I’m I guess I’m imagining what that’s
going to feel like to make the ball get
there and so a practice swing is not
only seeing the golf ball but it’s more
this is what my body has to feel like to
make that happen and there’s a
trajectory involved with that as as well
as a curvature and uh and so I think
it’s
more that visualizing for me has a lot
more to do with my what my body’s doing
than than really just standing be like I
I watched Jason day and and he was on
this week a lot with the Masters and
before every shot he does the close he
closes his eyes and I’m I’m curious
I thought to myself this weekend before
we had this talk and you mentioned
earlier that tiger was kind of more feel
orent which kind of made me laugh I was
like you know damn it that’s what I was
going to say but um the when I watched
Jason I was thinking this weekend like I
wonder if he’s really just like if he
seeing the ball in the air is he kind of
closing his eyes and thinking you know
this is what it’s going to feel like you
know I don’t know I don’t know how other
other guys do it or or think about it
but uh for me it’s more what is it going
to feel feel like for for my body what’s
that shot going to honestly like what’s
it going to feel like on the face you
know when you hit a really crisp shot
you have that feel of a really good
contact what’s that going to feel like
interesting well that has been one of
the most eye-opening things for me is
that people perceive it differently and
there isn’t a guide book that says hey
these are the different ways that you
could feel this or visualize this or
this everyone just assumes that it’s
this visual thing right I thought it was
very interesting reading a lot of the
early Tiger Books because he would
describe things as the traditional
visualization and then in the 1997
Masters book he very specifically said
basically all that was [ __ ] this is
what I really feel it’s not what Jack
Nicholas was seeing not what all these
other people were saying and so to me
that’s very freeing is that a lot of
athletes probably don’t visualize it in
the same way but it doesn’t mean that
they’re wrong it doesn’t mean that
they’re deficient cuz I I can’t see the
ball when I well we’ve played golf
together and I know that you played
enough level how many times have you
stepped over a putt knowing you were
going to make it and then you did a lot
yeah I mean not as much as I’d like it’s
a but it’s a well it doesn’t I don’t
think it happens a lot even to the best
Putters but you know i’ I can distinctly
remember my last British Open and being
on the 18th green on Thursday night and
I had like a 35 40 footer for birdie and
I was kind of not having a great day I
may a couple over but it was a tough day
and you know hung me in there and I
stood over this putt and I’m I literally
in my mind said I’m going to knock this
in like I can feel it and see it and I
knew how it’s almost like I I had
already made it and the stroke was just
just happened and I poured it right in
from you know 35 ft and wind and like I
I don’t know how I knew that was going
to go in but I did and so again why
doesn’t that happen more often but like
that wasn’t that I could see the ball on
the on the ground and where it was
supposed to go it just was it was an
easy read I guess I knew it had movement
to it you know I was moving a foot foot
and a half right to left I like those
putts actually you know the ones that
are right Edge from 30 feet that those
are hard to make like it’s like a pool
shot lining yeah you have to be so
perfect well here but I knew in my mind
like I could feel it before I hit it
like how the stroke was going to feel
and you know it went in with you know if
it didn’t if it didn’t go in it was
going to go a foot by the hole it was
going to be an easy tap in so
uh the more we could tap into that the
more we could do that that’s kind of
want to talk to Doc a little bit about
putting and and uh that’s that’s the
type of things that we we talk about you
know seeing it visualizing it feeling it
um uh it’s pretty impressive when he’s
around like when I I haven’t worked with
him in quite a while because he’s not
out was not on the champions tour very
much but just haven’t haven’t done it as
much but when he was out on tour and I
would spend some time with him on the
putting green just listening to him talk
and visualizing and seeing it go in and
knowing like you’ve made it before
you’ve even hit it and while he was
around I mean I made everything like
puted better than I ever have in my life
when you know so trying to carry on
those things he said to me that’s why I
had his voice in my head quite a bit
later in my career I i’ never heard of
that having like other people’s voices
in in your head I kind of like that
that’s something that is is interesting
to me as long as they’re good ones right
yeah I guess there’s bad ones too of
course we’ve all had bad voices in our
head that kind of brings me to a broader
a broader question about people that
that you’ve learned from or who have
been influential on your career could
you tell me a little bit about if
there’s their golfers athletes or just
other people who have been instrumental
in making you a better golfer or in any
of the success that you’ve had no I mean
I credit my family right off the bat I
think you know great mother and father
and um they’re still a part of my career
and part of uh what I do from a business
perspective um meeting Tabitha and my
wife early in my career when I was 25 hu
I mean just huge uh you know to to share
experiences and have her there you know
before we had kids I mean she was there
247 and kind of live died breathe golf
with me you know obviously you start
having a family and Other Things become
a lot more important but uh she’s been
there by my side and a great support So
as I said I’ve I’ve heard her voice and
it’s a a shot of confidence uh so you
know outside of you know family we’ll
say um Doc rotell and honestly I didn’t
start using him until I was 42 and a lot
of that was wasn’t even really golf to
be honest with it start on it was a lot
of life just you know I was struggling
at 42
with uh you know I had kids that were 8
to 10 years old I was struggling with
being on the road uh Missing
family
um you know you struggle with the am I
home enough you want to be a father you
know you want to be a father and a
husband first and a
golfer next uh I want to be a son you
want to be a good son for my parents uh
you start thinking about family and
being away and there there’s a there’s a
wrestle with that with with everyone in
their say every player who’s you know in
his mid to mid-30s and mid 40s who has a
family at home you wrestle with that and
so I talked to Doc a little bit about it
and trying to manage my I guess workload
uh time on the road how much I’m away
and you know am I going to be playing
enough to stay you know super
competitive and it was just a very
calming effect that I’ve had this
conversation with over a hundred pros
and you’re going to play better if you
cut down your schedule because you’re
not going to feel like you know you know
there’s times where I left but the key
in ignition to went I don’t even know
why I’m playing this week like I would
rather be at home watching a baseball
game or watching a dance recyle whatever
I’m missing at home like I’d rather be
here and so he said if you play less
you’re going to be really excited about
getting out there playing golf and
you’re going to be fresh and your mind
is going to be in the right place rather
than getting on the road and basically
being cranky and I went through probably
a year there where I was cranky and a
pain in the ass I’m sure for fluff um
where uh there was times I didn’t want
to be at the course and I think everyone
deals with that whether you’re a
professional golfer whether you’re an
athlete whether you’re an Entertainer
whether you’re a businessman or woman
right you’re you’re away and you miss
things and that’s that’s part of it and
it’s no different than anyone else’s
life it’s just nice to talk to someone
that’s managed that with other people
that you can come up with a good plan
and and maybe put yourself in a better
spot and uh and mentally and so that’s
where we started and then we we kind of
moved into golf and putting at the time
I was struggling with the putter a
little bit and and then we got into golf
and pre-shot and and just you know he’s
kind of like a my I hate to age him now
but uh he’s kind of like that he’s not
as old as my grandparents but he just
has that way of telling stories
uh doc tells stories to make points and
he’s worked with so many athletes and so
many really successful folks that it
could be baseball it could be any sport
and yet he tells a story that’s really
cool that’s interesting but at the end
it has a meaning that can help you I
guess and and it applies and so um Doc’s
been a big help
um you know throughout my career I’ve
really I don’t know if I’m going to
start picking out more people um I think
there’s players that have helped me
along the way um where I’ve picked their
brain and and
uh you
know I’m sure he wouldn’t even realize
it but uh Nick price pulled me aside in
a practice round early in my career and
showed me just some shots around the
greens that sevy had helped him with you
know early in his career career and kind
of showed me a technique to use and I’ve
kind of it’s just always kept it in it’s
how I play a lot of shots um because he
showed me I kind of practiced it tried
to can’t perfect it I mean I guess seie
probably did I can’t perfect it but uh I
became pretty good at it um but little
tidbits here and there from folks I
think though if you said who’s helped me
the most it’s been my family and then
past that I would say late in my career
you know for the last 12 years has been
drella amazing amazing so I’d love to to
change years a little bit to talk about
how golf maybe has also changed over
your career obviously we talked about
your game we’ve talked about uh your
family and how they’ve you know maybe
the roles have changed over time how has
golf also
changed
well so the hard part about discussing
how golf has
changed you immediately I’m I’m 53 I’ll
be 54 next month so I immediately don’t
want to be the old Cragin
that you know walked to school three
feet in snow uphill both ways and it was
totally different and better when I
played like I I don’t so but it’s hard
not to talk about the way the game’s
changed um without sounding that way so
first I would say the athlete has gotten
bigger stronger and
faster um and better um and and so my
hats off to the current day that also
has a lot to do I think there’s a tiger
effect in that I think it’s drawn more
athletes to the game I mean Jack
Nicholas was a great athlete but I think
the depth and the number of good
athletes that are now playing golf is
far greater than it was 20 years ago 40
years ago the greats of the game Bobby
Jones you just go down the line Jones
Hogan you know I’m going to skip a few
but Palmer Nicholas you know
Norman Price tiger you go like the
greates of the game we’re going to
compete in any era there’s just more
depth every decade every 20 years
there’s more depth there’s
more great uh you know Scotty and Rory
are playing against more great players
now then tiger was playing against then
and tiger was playing against more than
Jack was playing against and Jack was
playing more against more than Hogan was
playing again you just there’s more
depth to the field they’re all great but
um you know I guess you go into the the
trackman quad era of launch monitors
teaching techniques have gotten far
greater um and then equipment has just
changed changed the game it’s a
different game um than it was when I
when I came on tour in
1994 I said earlier that I actually gave
up distance to play the PGA Tour more
successfully um the reason we did that
is because
we weren’t long enough to attack if we
had a
440 yard par 4 that was a long hole back
then like that was an asterisk in the
yardage book that okay this is a big
hole um and at the
time I I was pretty average I was
driving the ball 255 yards like my
rookie year that was about an average
guy on the PJ tour so if you’re hitting
at two
255 and you’re hitting in the middle of
f away and you have 185 to that hole
that’s that’s a pretty big hole if I hit
that ball in the rough and I’ve got 195
because it didn’t roll
out uh we had some pretty thick rough
back then you weren’t knocking the ball
on the green consistently from 195 with
a five iron out of that out of that
heavy rough it was hard to hit five iron
in fact you’d probably take out a seven
iron play a little back in your stance
and You’ try to catch a flyer and try to
send that thing as much as you could and
bounce it up on a green that was a good
shot
now with the distance guys are hitting
it let’s just go to a 500 Yard part four
right what what are they what are they
driving at 330 some of them yeah okay
and then you’re hitting what are you
hitting from all right let’s say they’re
hitting at 320 and from 180 out of the
rough what are you hitting [ __ ] an eight
iron okay eight iron and your chance
your chance is the green and and I’m
telling you they don’t play on a on a
weekly basis the rough on the PJ Tour on
a weekly basis a weekly average isn’t as
thick as it was 25 years ago um and so
what does that tell you well
statistically speaking you would tell me
hit the [ __ ] out of it launch it and the
weeks that you hit it in the
Fairway right you’re going to you’re
going to have some good weeks and the
weeks that you don’t you can still
manage your way around yeah and if you
hit it further down there then you’ll
have a wedge out of the rough rather
than a right like a seven eight iron out
of the rough and that was a Nicholas
quote even from the 60s I’ll hit wedge
From the Rough you hit 7 IR from the
Fairway and I’m going to beat you um and
so he overpowered courses that way I I
couldn’t do that but
also I’m going to say statistically
speaking and you could tell me I’m wrong
I was right early in my career to lose
10 yards to hit more Fairways and it was
more beneficial for my game at the time
today you wouldn’t do that and that’s
because the athlete is bigger stronger
faster
the products are going so much farther
and so the combination of the two is
basically
making you know these guys don’t hit a
lot of five irons they hit them to par
3es and they hit them to par fives they
don’t hit a lot of five irons to par
fours anymore um and
so uh it’s just it’s a different style
of game that doesn’t make these guys any
less talented I mean they’re they’re
extremely talented it’s it’s just a
different style and so um you know if
you’d ask me do I miss the old style I
do but it’s gone so if you want to you
can come kind of come see it on the
champions tour a little bit there’s
still a little old style he I like I
like watching the the champions tour
events I earlier this year I got the I
played in one of the prams and had a
great time so uh highly recommend anyone
get out to those so I think tiger
essentially is the person that ushered
in this new era he’s coming out hitting
the ball further more viewing himself
purely as an athlete not just a golfer
can you talk about what the experience
was like when he came on the scene in
1997 What was obviously there’s a change
in terms of I will say tiger though did
it
with I’ll go with athleticism and power
but he still played a golf ball that was
a low- launch High spin ball he played a
spinni ball than almost anyone on tour
and I know that because I played with
him in alternate shot in the president
and R president cup and Rider cup and I
played a ball at spun a lot so I enjoyed
like playing his product because it was
similar to what I played he he still
hit you know he still from 130 yards
could hit we had all the Artistry wedge
nine or eight and flight the ball down
and hit a lot of different shots it’s
with the products that we have in play
right
now I’m not saying the kids can’t do it
I’m saying the product doesn’t let you
do it it’s it’s not how the golf ball
today is meant to be played it’s not how
the Lofts on some of these irons it’s
just not how how the game is meant to be
played right now and so it it’s
different but he was the one that
ushered in kind of a new
era but the way he played say in the
bulk of like 2000 like we’ll say that’s
probably Primo tiger yeah four majors in
a row and you know the style of game he
played
then isn’t the style of game that’s
being played played today without a
doubt well it was very interesting doing
all the homework on tiger is that he he
was probably hurt the most by the new
Innovations in Golf Club technology so
when clubs were changing away from like
the gear effect when the clubs are
getting bigger everyone is picking up
distance on him whereas he’s losing some
work ability which is what he cherished
a lot being able to control and flight
the ball and it’s a very interesting
thing to see that okay he was physically
dominant with the same equipment he
could hit it so much further but when
equipment caught up it actually hurt him
more than it helped him I thought that
was a very unique unique take did he say
that or did he said that huh it’s
interesting I never thought of it that
way um well he also was the first to put
in the Nike resin ball in 2000 which is
one of the probably largest Revolutions
in in golf going away from the W ball so
he on the other side of that he also was
a beneficiary of uh technology in his
own way and then everyone else adopt so
it’s kind of cool my first my
first
uh solid ball was a 9596 it was the
Bridgestone EV extra spin that price
played so well with and then I found the
98 I found the Top Flight strata that
omera won both the Masters and the
British Open in ’98 that ball was
phenomenal so it was the first time that
they made a ball that wasn’t wound that
was solid but you could flight a wedge
with it so it flighted way better than
the EV extra spin the EV extra spin was
amazing in the wind and all the success
I had 95 and six was always in like
windy events and then in 97 all a sudden
I could flight the wedge the way I
wanted to and also got the the
beneficiaries of of having a a solid
golf ball the distance and it was a game
changer that ball was ahead of its time
and so I would argue that Nike was two
years behind fair enough fair enough I’m
just going off what the literature was
saying I think they probably dramatized
it a little bit yeah there’s a lot of
companies that got behind but that that
that ball the strata pushed every
company in my opinion to get better I
love that I learned something new every
conversation I had I well I I finished
fourth in both that 98 Masters and that
98 British I had chances the two events
that Mark
won he beat me down the stretch uh uh at
the British we were tied with about five
holes to go and he played better and uh
but that ball was was super good it’s
like cheating well let’s talk about that
2000 to 2001 period I mean I think as
you just described that’s tiger peak of
one of the peaks of his
career what was it like being in the
field with him during that period of
time was there cuz everyone talks about
the tiger effect everyone talks about
intimidation Factor crows I never looked
at it like that like I never I’m going
to realize he only
played 16 18 events a year and there’s
48 you know I probably played 24 to 28
you know through through those times so
I never really looked at it as you know
he’s in the field or he’s not in the
field I mean there was a buzz and it was
exciting and I think getting paired with
him was always fun I it was exciting to
especially if it was on the weekend you
were probably playing pretty well but uh
even on a Thursday Friday getting paired
with them that there was a buzz to uh
you know the whole Golf Course was
following your group and uh and it was
exciting um but I never really looked at
it like he’s in the
field it it never changed the way I
looked at myself like I I I had to play
the golf course to the best of my
ability using the skills that I had and
just had to be the best version I’m
going to go back to I had to be the best
version of me um so I never really I in
the field not in the field other than
the media hype and the attention that
television and maybe the crowd on the
course gave it I I I didn’t like it
didn’t change or affect the way I did
anything uh throughout a week yeah well
as it shouldn’t right um do you think
that there were people other athletes
that are playing when they see tiger at
the top of the leaderboard where it’s
almost like yeah you
like can can we even win this I mean I
think it change like going head to-head
against him a number of times it
definitely changed the way for better
for worse and probably not for better
but it changed the way you look at a
tournament I mean you knew that he
wasn’t gonna he wasn’t going to give you
shots usually coming in you know it
wasn’t he wasn’t going to drop shots he
you know and if he was chasing
you uh he definitely applied a lot of
pressure if that made sense um tiger
usually gained a lead by hitting
driver but man on Sunday on the back
nine he never hit driver he hit three
with two iron he put He never missed a
fairway rarely missed a green like it
would he applied a lot of pressure and
if he got a lead you know if he I
remember I played him in his in his uh
whether it was Target or Chevron or
whatever it may have been at the time
the postseason event out at Sherwood and
it was basically he or I that were going
to win the event and I made a few
mistakes I don’t know somewhere 8 n 10
somewhere and and he might have either
probably took the lead by one or two and
uh and then it was just too iron Three
Wood two iron three wood and you kept
hitting it 15 fet 20 feet 10 feet I it
it was a lot of pressure I mean you’re I
hit the ball straight I hit a lot of
greens uh comparatively and but you know
he he’d put it on cruise control and and
uh and apply a lot of a lot of pressure
to you so it seems like he made it so
that you had to beat him rather than
almost always yeah he didn’t beat
himself very often that’s why and I
think a lot of guys beat beat themselves
playing tiger because
of again uh the hype the attention
whether that was TV whether that was the
crowd um knowing his record knowing he
was the number one player in the world I
mean it all adds pressure to the other
guy
um you know I think uh playing with him
in rder cup and President’s Cup he he uh
I never really noticed it but uh until I
played alongside him as his partner but
he put himself in positions where he
stood to make sure that he was a
dominant figure um not in the way not in
a gamesmanship kind of way but he he
knew how
to he knew how to make uh make his
presence known I guess would be a good
way to say it I think he pays more
attention to the details of that than
any other athlete ever and not in terms
of pure gamesmanship but like doing the
things to protect an image or an aura
yeah that gives him this kind of crazy
Advantage I mean feder has this
Advantage as well in a unique way where
every tournament feder plays at he has a
home field advantage because he is so
universally liked Tiger has the same
thing in the sense that every tournament
he plays at he has more crowd than any
other golfer has really scene which is
super unique I loved playing in his
group like I love that big moment I love
the feel of it um playing as his partner
in ryer cup and President’s Cup it gave
you a a little minor Peak at what his
daily life looked like as far as I mean
the whole world’s attention is on that
group um so you kind of got to live in
his shoes for a day um playing in front
of him was a giant pain in the butt
playing the group in front you would in
my mind I was like if I had a fast group
I was okay because you could usually get
out ahead like his group had a hard time
moving through the course because
crowd but if you were in a group that
maybe a couple guys that weren’t the
fastest players you felt like a herd of
elephants was coming at you all day and
so I thought always playing the one
group ahead of him was always the most
difficult spot in the golf course well
that also might have helped him protect
his lead too if if it’ss the the final
day and he’s in the last group I mean
you have well I I’ll say I you
know I lost I I think I’m trying to
think if I I I think you could kind of
say I beat him I think he finished
second at
uh at the Western open in 0 I think it
was 06 05 one of those two years and I
won the event and he sent me a nice text
afterwards saying that was fun wasn’t it
you know congrats and he did he made a
bogey on the way in like
on
14 uh and I I C take like a two shot
lead and then carried it through and
either one by I think I won by a couple
but I think that’s the only time where I
feel like I got where I won an event
where and I had a lead he was Jason so I
never caught him I know that and head
to-head he he got the best of me as as
he did everyone else the the the last
thing I want to touch on obviously you
played in one of the most in my opinion
one of the most epic play us of all time
with tiger in 2001 in the WGC event yeah
it always pisses me off people bring
this up I know I know that’s that’s why
I brought it up right no I’m just
kidding I I was wondering if you could
talk to me about what that experience is
like it’s you’re in extra holes it’s
essentially just you and him on the golf
course yeah I had him I had him beat at
least twice maybe three times in those
seven holes um he made a really nice
putt going up I think we came down
18 I mean I had to I think I hold a
bunker shot too to stay in it um we went
up 17 and he had like a 15 plus footer
for par and I was in there like 10 feet
for birdie and he poured it in and I
lipped I lipped the 10-footer out um I
had a 10f footer for bir on 18 that I
missed he hit it and left on 18 one time
we just kept going back and forth and
was under a tree screwed he had nothing
and there was a scoreboard wire in
between him in the
green and no chance he was playing that
way but by rule um he he got
relief I think it was the right call and
then he had to from even getting relief
he had to hit it 40 yards right of the
green and then make an amazing up and
down to kind of keep it going so he just
had an KN of extending and keeping
things going and I had my chances I
missed putts I missed two 10-footers
that could have won holes and um it was
a bummer to lose but it’s funny like
people bring it up to me all the time uh
about how you know they love that
playoff and what a great moment and I
always kind of genuinely say thanks and
appreciate it and they walk away I go
God damn it I lost that tournament like
it of all the fun things I’ve done in my
career that they remember me losing
that’s that’s wonderful so well I
remember for winning the that’s that’s
tiger F but uh no I I I mean it in the I
mean that to be funny uh it definitely
was a a bit of a heartbreaker and and uh
it was a big event you know with a world
golf championship and so and and
honestly one of my favorite golf courses
so there’s two or three
courses three off the top of my head
that I never won an event at and it to
this day it still makes me mad because
there are like three of my favorite
courses on tour and firestone’s one of
them so I mean what was the biggest
takeaway from that experience I mean
obviously aside from people telling you
about it and needing you all the time
um I mean I think by that time was that
like 01 it was 01 okay I mean by that
time I was pretty comfortable with
myself in my career I guess this before
I won the US Open so that was a bit of a
heartbreaker um but I knew I was good
enough at that point and and uh I was
putting pressure on myself to to win a
major championship
and uh that would have been the biggest
of event I won to that career you know
to that point in my career and and and
so I guess I I was probably more
flustered I think I think
um we on tour probably
remember like like the losses sometimes
are more painful than the wins are happy
if that makes sense when I take my
friends to play golf and I like to say
like they hit two great shots that day
say they shoot 82 they were decent
players hit two great shots we go to the
bar after the round we have a beer and
man all I have to hear about is those
two good shots oh how about when I
birdied 17 and that you know that four
iron was just a laser show you know they
they tell you all these great things
about these two shots they hit and I
always the way to combat that is they go
you know what the difference between you
and my friends on tour and they’re like
no what I go well after the round
instead of coming in and have a beer we
go to the lunch table we sit down and
they’re always bitching about the two
bad shots they hit during the day that
you know they could have shot 68 but it
ended up being 71 and they’re just irked
those two shots and they’re going to go
to the range they’re going to beat three
bags of balls and try to figure out why
they double crossed or why they I said
so you know like the Tor Pro is always
remembering the two bad shots and the
average Amer is always remembering the
two really good shots and and that’s
kind of what we focus so like at an
event like that my point is
like I’m more focused on again like it
hurt I went through the same Dynamic
that I would have it it hurt it’s
painful you know either you feel bad for
yourself or you’re upset and then you go
to like being pissed off like I I could
have won that event I should have won
that event um why didn’t I and then you
start breaking down the process what
could I have done better I missed a
couple putts uh of course management
whatever it may be you’re going down the
stretch you’re kind of thinking of what
could I have done better for that to
work out and then you go to work you
kind of I let it go and
uh I go to work and try not to make
those you know I work on it try not to
make those mistakes again and so I guess
that process for me I never really
thought about it I just as I got later
in my career and you know moments like
that mount up right you get beat up in
this game so moments like that mount up
and when people say how do you deal with
it I’d say well I kind of History tells
me this is kind of what I did and I’ve
been able to kind of let those go and so
people always go like what’s the one
moment the question I get asked what’s
the one moment that bothers you the most
that’ll haunt you till your grave and
I’m like
like that’s just not going to be the
case like there’s moments that I wish I
could go back and change but that’s part
of life and that’s part of that process
and you know uh none of them are going
to haunt me to you know to that you know
there’s some that make me mad and I’m
like ah yeah I should you know should
have handled that situation way better
but you know it happens I had a lot of
success as well and and probably won a
couple tournaments that I I shouldn’t
have you want a few terms I shouldn’t
have as well well related to the the
idea of
of celebrating the the good shots versus
learning from the bad shots do you think
more broadly you hate to lose more than
you enjoy to win or the other way around
yeah absolutely I hate to lose uh I
almost think I think most people that
you know play professional sports would
say that but
yeah and golf’s different like cuz you
lose every week effectively unless if
you played for 20 years you won one
event have a good career every year
you’d be a Hall of Famer 20 times
lifetime
member you’d have a great career you
think about you know even if you played
20 times 400 events you know you lost
380 you won 20 your Hall Famer so it
it’s just part of it’s part of our job
you you get beat up pretty good in
playing golf Jim those are all the
questions I have are there any questions
that you wish I ask that I
didn’t no not really I think um I think
everyone goes about it different I just
enjoy it’s not really a question I just
I really enjoy meeting other athletes of
hearing stories like when doc tells
stories about other athletes but you
know the the greatest thing about our
sport is we get to meet so many amazing
people that are successful that are in
any field whether it’s Athletics
entertainment business we just we get
the opportunity golf’s the you know the
common denominator that brings everyone
together and but I enjoy talking to
other athletes whether it’s a pitcher or
we always have something in some
similarity you know uh talk to pitchers
that say when they were pitching well
the ball SM the ball felt small in their
hands and that’s kind of like same thing
with a golf grip you know I’ve heard
Hogan even say that when when the grip
felt good in his hands his hand felt
like long and thin it didn’t feel like
there was a lot of you know puffiness or
you know but just can’t make smaller
grips and get that same feeling it just
you know they felt like they had control
over the club and the Pitcher saying the
same thing had so much control over the
ball and so just talking about little
things like that you kind of pick up
tips along the way and things that you
know they’ve done throughout their
career to be successful and and uh I I
just kind of admire
uh uh I admire the folks that we get to
meet and and love uh rubbing elbows with
them and and talking about instead of
talking about me and golf I like asking
them questions about about their
profession and their life well you could
be co-host if you want then not that
good at it k i just fair enough Fair
well Jim again this is amazing thank you
so much for the time appr perfect that
was awesome
20 Comments
INCREDIBLE interview! I found it super insightful, and I will definitely be rewatching several times!!
Dude I just started watching golf and this was wild to watch a replay of
Never realised what a nice chap Jim is. Always seemed so intense on the course now I know why. Great interview good job
The best quote about Jim. His backswing looks like a man swatting at bees in a phone booth. His downswing looks like an octopus falling out of a tree.
Awesome dude. I understand they’re pros, but I’ve played TPC River Highlands a few times the week after the tourney. All I can say is, WOW. As far back as that play from and as tight as it can sometimes play? Super impressive!
Great talk. Lots of thigs I try to do but fail at miserably😅
this was great!!!
Ownership of your swing. Trevino, Scheffler, Furyk, etc. They aren't flying to see "swing coaches" annually chasing bags of beans.
Wow, great interview and insight from one of the strongest minds in the game.
Gotta be the best interview of all time. Always love JF but now off the top respect. You did miss key comeback- what was his most used single swing thought in event.
Jim can you come caddy for me so I can win the National Hickory Championship with you on the bag I know I could two years in a row at 3rd. That would me awesome.
Follow Jesus Jim first then family and it will all make sense
Always loved watching him. One of the best!
he nailed these questions great job both sides
wonderful interview!
Living in Lancaster, PA , it's neat to hear Jim talk about Four Seasons and Media Heights as part of his development. I've played both courses, but I'm sure I hit more shots in a round on those courses than Jim. It sounds like Jim has hit a ton of shots on those courses. It's great to see his success…saw him at Allentown a few years on the seniors circuit.
The Exponential Athlete Podcast is available anywhere you listen to podcasts (spotify, apple, etc.) . Thank you for tuning in to this episode!
Interesting to hear how is unusual swing was protected. That takes an exceptional insight to go against the conventional wisdom.. and to think it created 58 and 59. Damn
Got you to 300 subs mate, good luck with the channel, great interview.
Superb specific questions & especially searching, self-aware answers.