Episode #181
Drew & Zach from Beyond The Contour join us as the roll out Canada’s TOP 100 golf courses!
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He All right we’re here with Drew Harvey and Zachary car from Beyond the Contour guys how’s it going good how are you good thanks so Drew is the founder um I guess you like all the rankings and stuff like that as well Zack you do a lot of the editing yeah somewhat when I
Have time to do it when my my real job allows me to right so can you guys maybe we just go into it a bit Drew can you give me like a bit of an intro of how you got into beyond the Contour yeah so growing up I I always had this website
Um that that acted as my own personal blog um and essentially Co came and I was pretty bored sitting at home and I I wanted to just Rebrand and just sort of have more voices and and it was originally called Drew harvey.com and I just figured it was best to have
Other people contribute be a bit more interesting I mean there’s only so many people that want to read something from me so I rebranded Zach was the first guy that I I I picked up and um we just sort of focused on golf architecture especially in Canada because there’s not
That much coverage of it and uh here we are almost two two and a half years later at this point so what what kind of LED you um Zach we’ll jump over in a sec but what led you down the road of like golf architecture specifically growing up I I’m from Le
Bridge Alberta so when I was playing junior golf there was this guy at the club uh named Mike Maisy um who I actually saw for the first time a couple weeks ago in Florida and he would go play bandad dunes or go play in the Netherlands or Pine Valley or whatever
And he come back talking about these places and I was always intrigued at at at that notion that you know this guy was going to you know Clemen New Jersey to play some random Golf Course um and then I played a junior golf event at Bam
Springs and you know that kind of opened it and I was I knew that it was something was different there than than the rest of the golf courses that I was playing at the time you know around son like uh some of the local golf courses
Built by Farmland people and uh I I I got into the Wormhole of of reading books and sort of got into golf club Atlas and eventually you know you never come out of that Wormhole if you go into it right it’s just a fascinating topic so I just
Quickly looked back B Springs has been number eight for a couple years on your list so I guess that’s what would sort of separate you from you know like you mentioned some of the courses that you’re playing being a top 10 course in the in the country would be you know a
Treat to play and something that just kind of stick out to you right so um Zach can we jump over to you can you give us kind of an intro of how you got involved with beyond the Contour yeah so I mean I remember I think it was one of
One of the co years just kind of all jumped together I Andrew is one of you know one of the only golf social Twitter accounts that that that we’re talking about Canadian Golf and um I I had never written anything I wasn’t on any kind of golf club Atlas boards or anything but
Obviously Twitter the way it is you know everybody’s free to to comment and stuff and so I would occasionally comment I think on his stuff and then Andrew eventually ended up reaching out and kind of Grew From there two guys like to complain about golf uh and then you know
Just started talking and it kind of snowballed from there and then eventually you know he totally gave me the opportunity to uh to write for his website and uh here we are today two years two and a half years later almost so you mentioned you had like no writing
Experience before it was just something that you kind of got involved in and and you were just passionate about golf obviously yeah I think so I mean I had background being an English major which is otherwise pretty useless but for this it ended up being useful yeah here we go
Exactly found it we found a spot yeah exactly so end up I you know I put my my my multiple degrees to work and uh you know maybe not the most uh you know maybe not what I dreamt of writing about when I was growing up but you know it’s
One of those things I kind of fallen into and it’s it’s been a awesome ride it’s been so much fun and you know I’ve never as much as you know it’s something that that that takes a lot of time and that maybe one day you know career
Career out of it or whatever that means um I’ve never treated as a job from day one it’s always been fun and it’s still a lot of fun you know it’s never felt like oh I got to go to the computer and write something it’s I’ve never always
Just been fun it’s something I I love doing still so when you guys um like when you think back Drew like you mentioned that you’re always kind of on like different boards and stuff like that like I know that from your past like when we were talking uh we have
Chatt in the past um we’re going to treat this one like a new one it’s been a while since we’ve had a conversation Drew but uh you know like what like what made you want to like get this specifically started I know you mentioned that there isn’t a lot of this
Happening in Canada but was was there stuff like down in the spa in the states that like inspired you over in Europe that inspired you or just kind of like seeing a platform that you thought was not really exposed that you wanted to kind of connect with I think for me it
Was just traveling across the country um so a little bit about me I grew up in Alberta and then moved to British Columbia and then finished my schooling in Toronto uh so I’m very lucky to live in in the three probably most I would say most famous or most notable golf
Provinces in the country and kind of playing around understanding what was good what wasn’t I kind of felt like some of the stuff that was that was sneaky good was kind of underrepresented um so for example when I think of that I think of like Waterton Lake
Um in Southwest Alberta where you know it’s right at the base of the Rocky Mountains between Alberta BC and Montana and it was it’s just like a cool kind of it’s almost like a heath Landy vibe in the mountains very low profile um but I
Think if more people saw it it it would be a pretty influential golf course in in maintenance standards and sort of understanding what’s good golf and what’s not so I was playing these places and I felt like obviously you know in in every country there’s the national Med out that would score
Golf but you know when you look at the states there’s the fried egg when you look at like the UK there’s like Cookie Jar and all these other smaller mediums that are going and finding um those those golf courses to talk about and kind of put them on a pedestal so when I
Was traveling across the country and playing these golf courses I I felt that they deserve to sort of have that attention that you know the the Common Grounds of the US got from the fried egg or you know cleave Hill from cookie jar and all this stuff and I just kind of
Felt that it made sense to start celebrating these golf courses that people locally know it’s good but potentially nationally they’ve never heard of been able to like even get the opportunity to go see or like even have the exposure right so it’s it’s kind of one of those things too it’s hard for
You know we’ll see like Hamilton and St George and and everybody hears about cat and stuff like that but then once you kind of get past that list like I know we talked about score golf in the panel and stuff like that once you get kind of
Past that list there’s so many that people don’t get the opportunity to play um I’m lucky enough to have a couple of friends who have played all of them so it’s like really great to be able to get their feedback and kind of tell me about the different courses and whatnot um I’m
Lucky enough to be able to play a handful that are in the area as well but um it’s not easy for for people to kind of learn about a course that might be halfway across the country right so um Zach we can kind of talk a little bit
About the editing aspect of beyond the Contour so what’s what’s your role look like what’s your typical if you’re going to give us like a day in the life to type of thing but or or you’re about to release an article what’s that look like
For you um I think in terms of uh what I do for be and the Contra we’re very like people who write for us like go ahead write as long and on whatever interests you right it’s kind of and I think that’s one of the the main sort of
Um you know positive aspects of being able to work for beyond the cont compared to other sort of you know Outlets or or media where there’s kind of limited space we’re very much just like you want to write a 25-minute article I’ve written 25-minute articles that nobody nobody gets through right
Except me but you know I have stuff to say and there’s no sort of limit on it um I would say it’s just kind of you know go go look at what our guys are you know submit kind of try to brush up a little bit on it I
I I believe in being as Li handed and editing as possible you know trying to trying to let sort of the individual voice is still sound individual not sort of tailoring it to my voice I think that’s kind of kind of the best way with editing um so it’s you know it’s just
Kind of very much going over the stuff having a chat together okay this is good you maybe probably flesh this out a little bit more here you know maybe this can be said in a little bit of a different way I’m OCD with myself so I
Mean sometimes just for me like if it was up to me I would just like keep going keep going keep going eventually it’s sort of okay well yeah it’s maybe not perfect but you got to get it out um so I think it’s just you know kind of
See where you can improve a little bit uh maybe touch up here or there but not to be overly heavy-handed in stuff as much as possible try to let you know we have very extremely talented writers Jason Alex Ben uh Ian Murray who’s done a couple things if I’m missing somebody
Sorry Tom Peters Tom Peters you know just just got you know try to let the individual voices sound individual but to kind of make sure it’s it reads well and it and it’s somewhat grammatically correct it’s not too many too many errors and stuff are we missing that’s a
Good point are we missing anybody else on the team obviously not everybody’s here with us today but so we work in a way that that’s that’s prettyy I think interesting um so we’ve kind of opened the floor to anybody who wants to write so um if if anybody wants to write an
Article you know we we let them we give them that platform of hey you know we’ll we’ll uh we’ll open that floor we’ll post it we’ll we’ll promote it um so I think in total we’ve had eight people I think so yeah uh contribute to the
Website which is pretty fun um so kind of anybody that follows after you know they read they they want to post an article we’ve definitely let them um I encourage it like I think the original idea was sort of like an open source of like people who just want to write about
And that’s what Zach’s talking about where it’s it’s very lowkey like we kind of give K blanch where you know kind of the the joke that I make we have a at this point probably an Infamous slack group chat um where it’s it’s probably the the the the most unhinged stream of
Consciousness on Canadian golf ever maybe um where it’s just 24 hours well not 24 hours a day because we sleep but pretty much like constantly going about something in Canadian golf courses you know live PGA to or whatever um the joke that I kind of make
In there is I just don’t want to be sued whatever you write like I will publish it on any topic it doesn’t have to be you know golf courses but um we’re very lucky that you know other than us six people have trusted us to sort of put
Their word out and contribute to that love that it’s like I guess there’s no like standard group chat like group meeting or what just kind of flying you’re just throwing it out there in the group chat and you’re kind of going with it right yeah the group chat is is is
Largely how we stay in contact like we do a couple events per year now um which is pretty fun uh you know so this year for example in three weeks we’re going to Caba citra’s Farms okay um some of us some of us yeah not everybody goes to
Every event um Tuesday after the Canadian open so June 4th we’ll be at Branford so unveiling the new golf course there and um you know then we have two more later in the year we’re going to do do a Skins game at Norfolk um so we just try and do these
Gatherings that you know a if the community wants to come and be a part of obviously they’re welcome to we’re trying to open those doors of some of the clubs that that we’ve been lucky enough to experience and kind of open those doors for them through kind of a
Meeting that allows them to play the golf course generally bring in the architect or one of the Architects to talk um kind of about the project or about their projects or just about the golf course in general um and we we just were trying to develop that community
And and uh other than that really we don’t get the chance to to be together that often because you know Ben for example is in Alberta Zach and I are on the road a lot in the summer and so we use those examples and the slack group
Chat largely is where is where uh we kind of develop that community so if we can get some of the listeners interested in the event through you mentioned that uh you’ll have like maybe the architect of a course like I know um last year you
Guys were a grand mirr and MH um can you give us an idea of what that would look like if came to attend the event what would it look like for me for the day events kind of change depending on each one but so cabat citus farms in three
Weeks I guess we’re recording this now so it’ll be pretty current when this when this drops um we’re going to play uh the new crew course which was the uh Kyle Fran overhaul of of World Woods Pine Barons and then we’re gonna play Mike noos The Squeeze great course great course yeah
Great course and um you know then Kyle France is going to talk to us okay about the golf so kind of we open the floor anybody can ask questions um you know meals are included merchandise is included it’s kind of allinone you go there for the day typically and it’s it’s sunrise to
Sunset if you want um this year Branford is going to be 18 holes uh what’s the I guess I can’t review the other two yet um but yeah so generally like last year we had uh Jeff Ming and Lauren Rubenstein speak at Lookout Point uh so
We did six H at Lookout Point food there uh grandm in Quebec um we had uh Keith cutton and Adam Stanley speak uh so we’re just kind of fostering those relationships that we have very lucky to have developed in the community and kind of sharing those conversations that
We’ve had behind closed doors to the public of the people who come to the events I love that if um so we’re getting to this point here can we can we talk about what it’s what the criteria is for one of the golf courses I know
We’re going to get a bit deeper into some of the courses I’m sure we’ll chat about some of them in length but for you guys are just starting so at this point in time we’re just unveiling the top 125 to 100 um you know in the coming weeks
As this comes out there’ll be a few more um we’ll probably be down to 50 or something like that 25 but what gets what is the criteria for a course to be on that list you want to take a swing of this want go ahead for courses to be on the list kind
Of the way that we set set up our first event our first list ever was two years ago it was one of the first Keystone pieces we launched because we kind of wanted to come out with a bang we compiled a list of what you know some of the other websites that do
Rankings the top 100 that they did um so there’s like two or three of them that do it and that gave us like 120 golf courses and then we sort of filled in the other 80 and we submitted a ballot to at the time 17 panelists and they
Checked off which one that they have done which one that they’ve played or seen because some of them are are Architects and and Architects see golf differently than we do very differently I would say um so they they they prefer to walk but then they would check those
Off and they would put them into specific tiers of where they felt that it ranked in the country so we’re not asking for you know what’s what’s Jasper Park Lodge’s fun out of 10 or or you know St George’s resistance to scoring out of 25 or whatever it’s simply just like we
Took those bar conversations or the the post round conversations on do you prefer ban for Jasper do you prefer you know Hamilton or Toronto or any of the great matchups in the country and sort of asked people to rank them how they would in a conversation now on the other side of
That what does it take to be a panelist to get that information to you I think knowing like because the way that we do it largely relies around having seen a lot of golf courses it’s important to travel around and I know other panels too like even down in the
States it’s a criteria you have to know what you’re seeing to be able to talk about it in general our panel is smaller than most like I think Golf Magazine or or score golf would be the next smallest at like just over 100 we’re we’re 27 this year
So a little more than last year two years ago and largely those individuals have have seen most of the golf in the country so the the panelists whove seen the most he’s seen 166 of the 200 best golf courses in the country wow and that’s Coast to co that’s Victoria to to
St John’s New Finland like as far north as you know wasu Lake and as far south as St Thomas or or Cherry Hill or whatever is the F the South golf course so damn 166 would be playing a bunch of those a couple times too I’m sure and yeah that
Wouldn’t be that wouldn’t be all of them that’s a lot of golf that’s a full-time golfer Works in golf he works in golf helps that’s a professional golfer that’s a you’re getting P like at that point you got yeah you’re just like that’s your gig you’re just playing golf
I love that now if you’re if if somebody’s like kind of listening at this point and they want to become a panelist or they want to like connect with you they want to kind of get information um again like all the show notes were beyond the all the
Information for beyond the Contour is in the show notes below um go give it a follow go check out the rankings they’re fast fasinating but if they want to like inquire more or speak with you directly like what are some of the feedback that we would that we would hear if you like
You’re going to obviously like you said look for somebody who’s been around the game for a long time checked out a lot of golf courses if somebody’s not at that point and they’re kind of wanting to get into it what would you encourage them to do to be able to kind of maybe
Do this down the road I think just playing a lot of golf courses it doesn’t matter what level of golf you’re playing what style of golf course or quality of golf course if you’re able to sort of play two golf courses next to each other and and you know put together a
Decent argument on what’s better and why it’s better and and sort of use some of that knowledge through some of the the the great books in the game on architecture like you know the Spirit of St Andrews by Alistar McKenzie or you know even like the the links by Robert
Hunter or any of Tom Do’s early writings be able to articulate why you think Golf Course X is better than y I think that’s a great start and if if you kind of do that people will see you’re passionate I would not as someone who’s
Done it I’m only 26 years old right I’ve played the entire top 100 in the country I would not say no to a lot of things early in those years just trying to Foster those relationships and make those connections even if it was you know the 170th best golf course in the
Country like you know you’re still going and playing with somebody who you know might support you might be very very friendly you might be able to reciprocate in the future um a lot of those have come as you know they’ve become some of my my my great friends
Especially in Ontario when I first moved out here where you know someone was like on Instagram was like you want to come and play Red crust right like you know red crust is never making a list doesn’t mean it’s not a good golf course um but
I would just be open to to Growing your network and you know seeing lots of golf courses if you can now Zach we talked earlier about some of the the members on the panel um some of the team members now can we talk a little bit about more of
What they might do like who some of them are what maybe they bring to the table um I know they’re not here they’re not able to be with us so you’re going to kind of uh give your opinion on on what they might but try to be nice man try to
Be nice here but uh no is there can you kind of talk about maybe a couple of the members on the panel um that are in like your tight group of the eight or so and maybe uh maybe what they do I think like for for me the one that that that was
Really exciting to to sort of uh have on the panel and actually to contribute to to one of the projects that we got up coming was Robert Thompson who I think Me growing up as as somebody who was interested in Canadian golf was kind of a massive sort of probably the the the
Sort of the leading figure of that sort of late 20 late 2000s early 2010s when he had going for the green which I thought even to this day I think is still probably the best golf blog out there um specifically for the reason I think he did did exactly what we’ve been
Trying to do where he he everything wasn’t sunshine and Roses or or whatever the expression is where he’s not just saying everything is great he wasn’t afraid to say something well okay they did this well but they did this poorly as well or this could have been better
It was very sort of honest positive and negative in a respectful sense where um I think that was missing in a lot of golf writing especially you know in the last couple years where it seems like nobody’s you know people are just everything’s just say positive positive
Positive well okay but you know if if you keep it respectful and you know you actually think about it there’s a way to kind of go and okay and and do it I think having him on the panel and helping us and supporting us was really
Cool for me because he’s kind of you know everybody has their sort of influences and he was really mine in golf um other than that I think the one thing that that I find is exciting about sort of the panel that we have is that it’s very different background and very
Different geographical locations you know we have guys from PI we have guys from Quebec uh we have guys from like Northern Quebec we have guys from Ontario we have guys from Saskatchewan BC wherever I don’t know if we have anybody from the territories no ter no no no no territories maybe somebody from
The territories out there if there’s anybody listening who’s played a decent even just an okay amount of golf in Canada who’s play golf in the territories we will take you as a panelist we need that Regional representation I’ll dive into the stats of the episode and see because sometimes
You get in there and you’re like somebody’s listened from like Japan and you’re like what like how’ you find us like obviously it’s gotten into some Spotify algorithm or something like that and they’ve clicked it and checked it out for a minute or two but it’s just then there’ll be like people from
Denmark or something like that it’s just kind of it’s kind of interesting in that sense but I think too having like a vast amount of Knowledge from around the country is obviously super important that’s going to lend to to you know getting as much feedback as you can
Collect and I look at the list right so we like go to you know the top 20 and then you think like for most people playing that if you weren’t able to share some piece of negative information which unfortunately you’re going to have to on like Goodwood or something like that to
Separate Goodwood from cabat links like there’s or else they’re all just number one right like they’re that good they’re all so good right so in in my opinion anyway it’d be very hard to like distinguish what the two would be so I think that not trying to be negative but
You have to be able to find those things where courses can improve and I’m sure a lot of owners and Architects appreciate that as well right so um I have a question for you guys I was reading through um some of the notes that you
Sent me so thanks for but um routing I have a decent idea of what routing would be but you talk about routing a lot through the courses can you explain maybe what that is or or Zach if uh if you like that one but we could both take
A certain I think it’ll be to get two perspectives I think it’ll be good for because I was I was noticing that word being used a lot and it kind of is um used almost on probably most of the breakdowns right so can you kind of
Explain what that is why you would use like that terminology or some of the terminology that you guys might find or or a listener might find while they’re uh while they’re checking out the rankings yeah routing is I’m lucky that with the website i’ I’ve had the ability to spend a decent
Amount of time with some very talented architects of the criteria that makes a good golf course I would say the two that they they focus on the most is routing and and the actual green complexes um because everything else can be changed the greens are largely I
Would say the signature of a golf course it’s kind of how you know who built it U but the routing itself in my opinion is is you know it’s the pages that the book is written on basically where I I focus a lot on kind of the flow of the routing
Like you know if it if it starts par four par five short par three short par five Dy par 4 it’s going to feel kind of clunky at the start and it’s going to be hard to get into a rhythm whereas is you know if a golf course kind of flows
Through the landscape in a way that sort of feels like that you know golf we calls it the walk in the park test and I I like that uh terminology where you know golf at it at its core is just kind of walking around a piece of property
With with a stick and a ball in hand um so for me how that sort of flows through the landscape how it explores the topography in in various ways if it is a good uh piece of ground if it’s not then generally like Marine Drive for example
Marine Drive was I would say generally a controversial Golf Course among our panelists I happen to really like it because it’s you know 92 Acres uh Which is far south of of of what a golf course should be today like if you’re going to ask an architect how much land they need
It’s probably 160 Acres okay minimum um a lot of these golf course I think ovenbird for example just off the top of my head is built on 350 Acres Sage Brush built on 350 Acres Marine Drive is 92 acres and it gets 18 holes in in a way
That is pretty impressive how it sort of you know changes Direction and and works through the the property so uh that would be my definition of routing I’m sure you got to yeah to be honest with you I struggle with it with routing because you know I don’t build golf I I
Don’t really see too many I haven’t seen many golf courses that are in construction even if you you took me to a golf course that’s out in construction I’d look at a field i’ look at a track the trees go I don’t know how how you’re
Going to make this into a golf course right it’s not what I what I you know not what I make my living on it’s not something I’ve studied to building a golf I think so like Andrew was saying I think it’s a difficult thing I think it’s it’s it’s something that in terms
Of evaluating it’s probably the hardest thing maybe to evaluate a routing especially kind of looking at what could have been done better Um again it’s it’s a bit like it’s a bit like like I’m trying to the right sort of the comparison to it I think you kind of know it more sort of is this a good routing was it it’s a tough thing to really judge um a lot of it’s just a
Feel thing to me as how I see it you know did the golf course kind of flow well did I come off of it exhausted did I feel like I was taking five minute car drives between um that’s kind of my opinion or thoughts of it when I think
Of routing I think like what is it like kind of like you know T boox to Fairway to Fairway to green and then what was it like to get to the next hole and things and did it flow well like flow is kind of yeah it’s hard I think it’s it’s
Really it’s one of the hardest things to to sort of to judge and to to understand to learn in golf right especially people who don’t kind of get a chance to see the golf course that’s getting built and stuff um yeah I’m not going to profess
That that I know everything about it I think it’s a lot of is just kind of you know in your gut when something feels well right and I and I would I would jump in with you know I my my writing like I don’t come from an English
Background I don’t come from a writing background at all but um I kind of like to compare it to pop culture right like when you watch a movie generally the best movies are very well paced like you’re never you know it’s it’s not the climax for two hours straight it’s not
The lull point for two and a half hours and you get to like there there’s little tidbits here and there that get exciting and then it kind of goes back down and there’s like and I think every architech much like directors has a different flow where you know
Christopher Nolan might make a movie different than Quinton Tarantino um where Quinton Tarantino is all over the place and Christopher Nolan’s building to that yeah you know um major reveal of the plot um to me routing is sort of the the plot of the movie and I think it
Largely like a great routing is very much like a great movie where the pacing is excellent and it just sort of Feels Like You Know You’re Building to something but you’re never you’re never peing too early I think one of the things that I’ve as as I’ve actually
Thought about it a little bit more in the last couple years where where my opinion has changed seeing you know having the chance to see a lot more Golf and stuff and is the idea of kind of sort of let’s say breather holes or holes that are kind of a little bit
Nothing holes I think if you look at Laval laak I think it’s one of the really good sort of routings in terms of pacing in terms of building it up with Ian and Mike we did there there’s a couple holes that you play and you think
Well it wasn’t much going on here but then right at the next hole you’ll get you know really intense green you get a t- shot that’s pretty difficult or you’ll get something that you know that that that causes you to sort of you know I hate to use the expression but Puck
Her up a little bit right right and hit a shot but then you know then he’ll give you kind of a wide open shot where it’s or a more seemingly wide open shot where you can kind of take a breather and hit it so it’s not just kind of like that
Intense intense intense intense stretch for you know for three four holes and sorry you’re really sort of yeah for three four holes you know it’s kind of there there’s moments where it crescendos and then it goes down a little bit quieter and so I think you know like Andrew is saying having that
Pacing throughout the routing is sort of is very important all right that was a great explanation but I’m I’m glad I asked that because I didn’t expect the movie route but that was such a good uh just way to kind of break it down for the listeners definitely too but you
Wanted to add on that one Drew I I think if you’re talking about routing and and sort of flow and pacing in movies I think probably the best description is or the best example is for those who have played it um you know Bam Springs gets a lot of criticism even as the
Eighth best golf course in the country like Bam Springs is I would say like one of the most iconic golf courses in the world not just Canada like most people when you think of can Canadian golf at this point I mean Cliffs is obviously in there as well um but Bam Springs for
Years it was like Bam Springs in Glen Abby because Glen AB used that was the Canadian open right every year those were the most iconic golf course in the country Bam Springs in in the 80s to make room for a new Clubhouse and a new n holes they moved their uh starting
Hole to what would have been Stanley Thompson’s fifth hole right so it moved from you know you you teed off at the base of the Fairmont Hotel which is one of the world’s best hotels it’s like this massive castle in the Rocky Mountains and you teed off from this
High point over spray River to this amazing Fairway that I think Jack Nicholas vouch for is like one of the best starting holes in the world and you ended right at the peak and and and and the final eight holes sort of wind along the B River and sort of give you this
Tease this hotel as you get closer and eventually just like it’s right in front of you towering over you and now as a result moving it to the fifth hole to make room for this new nine holes it feels like you’re starting on chapter five okay right so you yeah you
You get to the the famous Devil’s Cauldron by the fourth hole instead of the eighth right right halfway in the round almost um you get to the the the original finishing hole as the 14th hole so you get to the climax at the 14th hole and then the 15th hole was the
Original first hole and it’s a bit of a clunky way to get from from 14 green to 15t because it was never designed to be mid middle of the round the example that I would use is is cabat links where you know you start in the town you make your
Way to the the harbor you kind of get a tease of the ocean on seven and eth like you’re not on the ocean but you’re pretty close you go back into town and by the time you know you get out to 14 you’re on the ocean 14 15 16 is the
Ocean and then you sort of head back into the town so it kind of gives you all the elements of the the site in a way that you know if you just went to the ocean immediately because you wanted you know that wow factor right off the
Bat it doesn’t feel like you’re building to anything like you’re not building to the the climax of the movie or the or the story that Rod Whitman’s trying to tell at cab links I think St if you stay cabit too another good example be cabet Cliffs you know know you sort of you
Start on the front nine and you wind kind of down into the meadow then you kind of come back to the ocean for the middle then you walk then you go away from it inside on 11 12 13 14 15 15 you kind of come over the cliff and that’s
Really sort of like your if you want to use the example your last B your big battle scene right then that 15 you got down playing down to down to the ocean 16 over the cliff 17 over the cliff then you got 18 that’s kind of like a little
Bit of a less intense t- shot it’s kind of like that riding into the sunset moment after the battle where it ends sort of in that romantic kind of ending to it where you know it’s not as intense maybe a 16 17 the shots over the cliff
But it’s still sort of that big like wow as you’re walking off down sort of the big wide Fairway especially at night and you’re playing into the sunset I didn’t expect this response guys this is great this is I was I would say routing is we could like another
Great one is uh is Jasper Park Lodge okay um which for anybody who’s followed me know it’s it’s my number one golf course in the country um aliser McKenzie kind of G over it obviously he built the gusta National and Cypress Point and [ __ ] and Royal Melbourne and I mean that’s a
Pretty decent resume it’s not bad not bad um Jasper is such a great journey I think you know it tells such an interesting story where you kind of start near the hotel like the hotel is much different than B it’s it’s much smaller there there’s individual log cabins or like just individual c
Cottages cabin feel versus like the massive hotel at B Springs um and you kind of go through the meadow you go up to the mountain you come back to the meadow before ending around this this stunning Glacier Lake and then you end on this swooping downhill par 4 that
Aliser McKenzie called the best finish in the World of Golf and that’s obviously large praise um and I think it’s just Jasper kind of throws you the the the the excitement on like the third t- shot fourth hole and then you get to the eighth hole ninth hole and then you
Get to you know 14 15 16 and 18 like the the the moments come and go in a in a very deliberate manner I would say now do you guys we do have a question here I posted on Instagram so I do want to come
Back to that but do you guys have like a favorite architect like beyond the Contour is a obviously a lot about architecture so do you have like a favorite obviously it sounds like it’s Al Alison McKenzie and Zachary do you have um I mean I would say my favorite architect obviously aler McKenzie
Because had the chance to play Cypress a month ago not not the go should that was just like the greatest day of my life um my life Peak right there I would say Obviously in Canada probably Stanley Thompson right and Rod Whitman I think by far in way the two best Architects
We’ve had in this country um my favorite architect is actually a guy who did mostly his work in Europe called Tom Simpson um his go I played a couple of course around Paris which not only being the world’s greatest City he actually a really good golf City too um and they’re
Just they’re like really cool golf courses on flat land where he just throws these like crazy greens at you with these big rolls and these big dips and these big Hollows um he’ll throw cross bunkers he’ll put you know these these big mounds that make it blind and
I think what I especially admire about those golf course is that you know you give most you give any architect like a Seaside site in the Sandy Dunes he should be able to build something good right right now you give an architect a flat piece of ground with no features I
Think that’s when you see the really talented Architects come to the four and the ones I played from him like again I evaluating a piece of ground is not something I can do very well but even I can see that they’re not they’re far from a sites and like he just produced
Great Golf Course think two of them are in the world top 100 another one I would put really right on the cusp of it and so I think seeing those golf courses it was it was like wow this this guy’s really good and I you know he’s done
Some stuff in the UK that’s also really well thought of so I haven’t seen a ton of it but the stuff I saw around Paris was just like mind-blowingly good now Drew I didn’t want to take that from you because there’s obviously probably a deeper answer there but is there is
There one that you’re kind of more fond of I I think of the stereotypical answers obviously everyone was going to say Donald Ross and aler McKenzie and modern you know Tom do or Bill core the two that kind of jumped in mind for me would be um I really like Harry Colt’s
Work um it’s unfortunate that we only have two of them left in Canada because Harry Colt was was largely prolific across the across the country or more Eastern Canada when he when he was working in the 1910s here what ones are those R uh Hamilton and golf club and
Then he would have contributed to the dval location at Royal Montreal before it moved to Il Bazar um he would have done bonus in Calgary he contributed to Royal Ottawa although it’s very nobody really knows exactly what he did at Royal Ottawa Clubhouse fire that burnt
The plans so nobody really knows there a big clubhous fire I think in 1930s right they had a couple but I think 1930 is the one that sort of pooched it okay and then there’s some other speculative courses that I don’t want to get into because I’m trying to I’m trying to
Prove a couple still yeah um so Colt to me Colt is basically like the father of of Canadian golf in in certain like largely National Golf Links America and the states has seen as kind of that watershed moment of like great architecture where uh in the states they transition
From like Tom bendalo sort of like traveling around the country just putting you know stakes in the ground and saying tea off here and play to this screen where where cult or where uh National Golf Lings of America is deliberately built for strategy and and and you know golf architecture and sort
Of like having a better playing experience um you know Toronto Golf Club in 1911 served at as as that same moment for Canadian Golf and Stanley Thompson took a lot from Colt with um you know routing his golf courses starting with the part 3es first and and it’s never
Been proven if Thompson met Colt on site but Stanley Thompson was a caty when Toronto Golf Club moved from Scarboro to the current location while Colt was building the golf course so I don’t think it’s a stretch to go they both start their golf courses with par 3es
Like when they’re routing that’s the first holes that they pick out so I think that’s uh Colt would be my first pick and then the other one I really like out of the states and and he was very unusual in how he approached golf because he was an engineer by trade he
Never went over to Scotland um he never studied golf he he got into it purely off the luck of his brother being a drunk basically um building Maran for this guy named Hugh Wilson his brother got kicked off the job and William you could form maybe an opinion of who
One of the creators Architects some of the work that’s been done just by being able to go for a walk I think it’s to use the movie reference again like I mean you know a Michael Bay movie you see a Michel Bay yeah um each architect has their own kind of calling
Cards and on what they generally like um a lot of that is stereotypical as well like aw Tilling House for example he doesn’t have a style like Somerset Hills is very different against Wingfoot against San Francisco Golf Club against Baltimore um but I think I could
Definitely narrow it down to one or two the issue is is is I’ve done so much research on golf courses that I’m able to I would know which golf course you’re dropping me at right so it’s yeah I I think I’m just kind of curious because
The deeper we get into it the more we learn the more we learn about you and how much you know about Golf and golf architecture it’d be kind of like a fun scene to like yeah I don’t know blindfold you drop you outfit a course like you’d probably be able to pick out
Where you were cuz you played all the top 100 but uh or or you played the top 100 you had said right in Canada in Canada yeah so it’d be kind of fun to just drop you at one maybe where you don’t know take him to Paris if he
Hasn’t been there Zach drop off and see some of the builders are there I think that that’d be a fun little content piece for you guys down the road one day so we were we were talking about the driving here I have a friend who she
Works in media in the golf world and one of her one of her roles is is posting photos Okay um and she’ll get sent like the company will get sent photos of of places that you know maybe she doesn’t remember or or hasn’t been um in a while
So it’s quicker or or more convenient to just text me which hole it is and I’ll tell her which hole it is immediately it’s scary just just because like for whatever reason I can remember the hole um and so that that game’s been going on she’s been trying to stum me for
Probably three weeks and and has not been able to yet so this is where I need to build in the Zach G fakis gift because we’ve been talking movies of him at the blackjack table and R over that’s that’s Drew there with all the different course architecture and stuff so we did
Get a question on Instagram that I wanted to come back to um I like it it’s just a fun question of your top five each of you your top five are you guys comfortable kind of sharing what your own personal top five would be Zach can
We start we do okay my number one is Toronto Golf Club okay so I should preface this by saying I haven’t been out west in Canada so I have that big blind spot um but yeah so my number one would be Toronto Golf Club I guess it’s
Probably not the most popular pick for the number one course in the country there’s a couple of us that have it number one but that’s my favorite golf course I I just I think it’s so good just everything about it it’s just so good it’s getting better because they’re
Taking out a ton of trees and stuff I think Mikey Mikey will like that if Mikey’s lesson in he’ll like that actually I played with him there yeah did you Mike Mike from U I can’t say his last name Marty Sav Marty oh man I he’s
Been on so he’s been on like four or five times now so I absolutely I did I always ask that question now CU I think he was like our fifth episode and I didn’t ask the question before the an or before the podcast and I just went with
It I just confidently like went with something and it was not even close and it’s Mike Marty savich yeah he was utterly disgusted by my 2006 Titleist 3w yeah so that would be that would probably get him yeah he was disgusted by that yeah there’s nothing but
Nothing’s taken that out of my bag there’s nothing well I guess he was playing those artist in wedges for a little while but I assume uh you know he’s moving product in and out of his bag pretty quickly has that luxury that maybe sometimes not everybody has so um
But yeah so we got Toronto Golf Club up top yeah Toronto Golf Club my number two sorry to go off on another tangent but I think one of the the interesting things about debating the best golf course in Canada is that there’s probably eight or nine that can reasonably be number one
And you can’t really argue if if you told me this is number one I’d be yeah sure if you told me this is number one i’ be like yeah sure so I think like in the states there’s probably a few less but like in Canada that’s one of the
Interesting things that there’s so many candidates that could be number one you can have a lot you know could be hear days arguing which is better um so I prefi sorry going back saying like these course are really tight um in terms of what should be number one but my number
Two would be cabat links um I think both cits are really good I just prefer cabat links a little bit more I think the greens 50 yards in kind of elevated above cavic Cliffs ever so slightly like Cav Cliff’s really good too um number three is St George’s TAA green I think
It’s probably the best ball striking challenge consistent sort of uh consistently calls for great golf shots awesome setting you know everything just a great Golf Course um number four would be number four would be where was I oh cab Cliff sorry would be my number four again spectacular setting I think if
You’re bringing somebody to Canada and there’s one spot you would make them play golf that’s probably pretty good sort of choice for it um has a couple flaws couple holes I don’t think work that well um but there’s no denying how it just spectacular it is and number
Five I’m going to go a little bit off the board and Save Mount Bruno Montreal okay I think you know I C C Cape red Highland links is probably better golf course I had it ahead of that but in my personal top five I I just love M Bruno
It’s personal yeah it’s personal yeah yeah yeah I would realistic i’ rank haveit Highland links ahead of it but personal top five Mount Bruno Montreal I just think from when you from when you you drive up up up the entrance drive to the end of the day I think it’s just the
Most place to play golf in the country it’s like going back to the 1920s over in the UK love that well like there’s got to be a story to it right so yeah that that’d be my personal top five yeah don’t uh don’t worry about us man you
Don’t have to be quiet or anything for us we’re just yeah we’ll be just kind of chatting away but go ahead we don’t uh we don’t mind go ahead hit balls the mics don’t really pick them up anyway so you’re all good maning Drew can we uh can we get
Yours yeah so I think one of the most interesting things about ranking golf courses and the and probably the best way to do it is is by the do scale um so for anyone who’s not aware is um the do scale is largely based off Tom does the
Confidential guide to golf courses so it kind of ranks them into tiers it never goes one of the other um I’m obviously going to rank them one of like you know in order but I’m going to start by saying that I think Jasper Park and Cat
Linkx would be sort of my my coin flip number one in the country depending on on the mood and what I’m feeling I’m I’m maybe sentimental to the West because I’m from Alberta so I would generally lean Jasper just because I think it’s probably maybe like other than Cypress
Point maybe the best story I’ve ever seen where it’s it’s very clearly telling you something um and then after that there I think there’s three that you could kind of reasonably argue like St georgees would be in there obviously I think that’s probably Stanley Thompson’s Most Fascinating golf course
Because generally of the famous Thompson 5 that’d be B Jasper calano Highlands lyx and St George’s it’s the one that’s deliberately harder um and I think if you put St George’s in in New York City more people would talk about it I think it kind of loses some of that you know
Ump of like a wing foot or being the small town of Toronto yeah small the tiny little town of Toronto you know you put it next to Wingfoot in in in in uh Scarsdale New York and to me it stands toe and toe with Wingfoot like it’s it’s
It’s that good um Cape Ron Highlands links I have a I have a strong appreciation for it because I think it’s probably the most interesting 14 holes of golf in the country uh the middle stretch is is is is I would say bad it’s not good cough through the middle there
After you get past uh get past the eighth hole and then Toronto Golf Club has has quickly become I would say a contender with Paul shenna leading the work on removing some of the trees and and clearing up some of those sight lines that colt wanted originally
And just sort of exposing the landforms there I forget who told me it but it was a really good comparison where Tron golf club is essentially Cape kidnappers before Cape kidnappers became a thing obviously not dealing with the the inlets off the Pacific Ocean like New Zealand um but you have these
Fingers kind of jutting out into this Valley and Colt’s kind of finding his way to meander it I think ripping out those trees has really kind of exposed that um in a in a cool way that you know where St George’s routes largely in the bottom of the valleys Toronto golf go
Plays on top of them um and obviously there is some of the valley holes at Toronto Golf Club too like the best one in my mind at Toronto golf is the ninth hole and that’s down in the valley but um I think those would be my top five I
Don’t think I’m missing calano would be the next one I’ll probably I think that’s okay my six top six I guess so Zach if we’re going to kind of go through the list like so say we take the list that’s going going to be out so
Again if you’re with us at this point should mention what Uptown Gulf in Osa which is cool we’re just sitting in the bay here so you might hear a couple golf balls and stuff but that’s okay we got Cobble Beach behind us which is on the
Ranking sheet too which is I uh went through and grabbed one I only hit a wedge here too so that was it I just wanted to make sure the screen was working down the middle yeah it at least went pretty close to down the middle but
I have not made the Fairway but um if you were to Zach if you were to give us going through your list in your personal opinion the most underrated course in the country what would that be for you drew this is coming so you can have a
Minut overrated so I can get more trouble than I already do that might still be coming the most underrated golf course in the country according to our list I don’t even think it’s close frankly I think it’s a it’s a black irer list that it’s not in the top 100 it’s
Monabell near Ottawa okay so at one time montabello open when it opened in the 1930s was widely considered the sixth best Stanley Thompson golf course so after his big five which would if you if you if you translate that over we’ probably put it
Back into the top 10 I think if you look if you still go there and play it and you have the ability to kind of or the willingness to overlook some of the deterioration some of the overgrowth some of the turf issues that they have it’s pretty obvious why it was
Considered that well like there’s five or six golf holes that are just amazing um feels certain part parts it feels like C Cape Breton Highland links other times it kind of feels like St George’s sometimes it feels like West Mount it’s just really dilapidated um obviously they’re in some trouble
Because the ownership ever Grand group owns them and they’ve had some some issues with bankruptcy or whatever it is I’m not exactly sure so hopefully brighter days are ahead for them that would be my most underrated golf course at I think it’s 100 number 105 for me I
Would have it in top 50 right now I think it’s that good even even being in probably I mean Andrew knows better is there a course in top 100s in worst shape than it right now no no I think it’s by far in the worst shape but for
50 bucks or whatever it is to cost not too expensive I think to me that’s the most underrated golf course I think it’s just an amazing place and it’s a really cool place place you know the hotel’s really good you know the clubhouse there’s kind of a big sort of like
Dining hall it’s got kind of that old school sort of tutor feel to it with the sort of the Log Cabin I think it’s just a really cool place to play golf what about you drew most underrated course according to the beyond the Contour it’s t like having
Like we mentioned earlier that the mo the person who’ve seen the most is 166 of 200 I’ve seen 163 so I’ve been okay I’ve been lucky to see pretty much everything inside the top 150 almost um most underrated I think and it’s actually the biggest drop from 2022 to
2024 which I I I for I can’t figure out why okay uh is is Colona and I think it’s like 97 or something and I think you know some of Jeff Ming’s more recent work is probably a bit more adventurous with u especially cut and Fields I think
The redo of cut and field is fantastic and probably to me it’s Jeff’s Magnum Opus at this point um but Colona is such a sophisticated you know dive into golf architecture where it it’s it’s random enough that it still very much feels like an adventure um but everything is very deliberate so
It’s just like this great playing experience lots of Short Grass um a cool routing that kind of you know Works around this pond at the very bottom of the property uh the six hole is one of the best in the country where dog legs around this mountain um like
Legit it’s called Dorth Mountain it’s right in the middle of cola the city of Colona that would be probably my choice although there’s not to me there’s not many that are like dramatically underrated like anything at like top 50 I would say I like Royal cwood much more
Than 36 okay so I would put cwood in that list as well do you find that there’s a big discrepancy between let’s use the two of you for an example like is there a big discrepancy between your two lists if you guys were to go through and like put your top 100
Zach and your top 100 Drew would there be a big discrepancy in the two there’s there’s things that we strongly agree on and then there is a couple courses that we could we would we would bicker about into the like I think the the one that comes to mind is is
Highlands links not that Zach doesn’t like it but to me like Highlands links is is one of the most adventurous golf course I’ve ever played you know and Zach would have it a little bit lower not saying Zack would no I had it like eighth I think Zach had
It eth but I you know I have it like third or fourth but I feel very strongly that I think it’s better than what is it sixth or seventh and Zach feels like it’s adequately rated okay so there’s that’s eth uh no never mind seventh there’s definitely courses that I think
We could we could debate until they’ll get us banned if we they’ll get me banned all right Zach so I I got one for you what’s some if you were to look through the list in your opinion what would be the most overrated course and let’s take it from the beyond the
Contour list eagle nest okay eagle nest i i i for the world of me I don’t understand why they built the two styles of bunkers like that’s to me is just like a a decision that I I I don’t understand um it’s not walkable uh in all fairness I’ll give it
You know consider that that it was a was a dump before no it was dump dump adjacent but I don’t think it was a great site for golf yeah I agree it wasn’t a great site for golf but to me that and 40th was one of them I was kind
Of like okay I don’t know especially considering the price that they charge you yeah there like it’s exorbitant yeah um now some of the resort courses and stuff that I played have noticed they’re obviously not walkable does that hurt the experience like from a panelist standpoint point of
View when you’re a panelist and you’re needing to be able like you have to drive because there’s you know I remember playing at De Hurst there’s like probably over a kilometer in between some of the holes and stuff like that so is that something that uh can
Kind of damage the the structure kind of like when we talked about that flow that you know is that something that kind of hurts the we we just touched on it my reason my big reason for for not for having K Bron Highland links number eight people will say it’s this great
Routing oh I mean and I do agree it tells you you know takes you from the ocean to the mountains to kind of to the valley Back Down the Ocean I don’t know if a routing could be great if you got two 400 yard walks in between of it in
Between it in between holes I don’t know if it can be yeah I would argue that no again that’s probably going to get me in trouble and people are going to argue me about that but you have to take two like nobody walks it is it really a great
Routing if nobody walks it I think it ruins experience if you have to card it now I get you can walk H BR High Highland links but that’s where I see it that’s one of my knocks on it I think some of us too are like I’m not from the
Old school and like really much with golf like I’m obviously wearing a hoodie I just enjoy kind of the Casual approach to the game um I don’t disrespect any of the uh kind of the old school but I do think you got to be able to walk a golf
Course like I think like the course needs to be walkable like even at my course at Port Hope like we have this beautiful Scenic bridge and stuff but like the first three four times you walk it you’re just like you come back after 10 you got to do it again and you’re
Just gassed right it’s like it’s the only exercise I get playing golf it’s like got to do this again and it’s just you know and then you do it a few times and you’re down 25 PBS you know a month and a half into the season you’re like
Okay I can handle this now right but it’s like my Cavs look like Phil mikkelson’s like you know halfway through the season but it’s like things like that where it’s such a beautiful site so when you like see it it’s attractive point of the course it’s kind
Of cool it’s kind of neat you get up top you can take photos of like the Lake Ontario and stuff it’s really cool but if you’re walking it it can be kind of tricky right so I do want to ask you guys a couple pointed um spots as I was
Reviewing the list last night so we’ll obviously go up top with citt Cliffs it was I believe number one on the panel in 2022 that was when the last one that we went through right Drew okay so and now it’s down to number four so again it’s probably the most notable
Or recognizable it’s the most photographed course I guess probably in Canada um but is is there you know maybe a reason or thought process as to why it’s not the top spot I want to preface this by saying it’s not my personal list or Zach’s personal list like it’s we
Have 27 individuals that contrib it so we can only really like speculate why the shift and I I found it very interesting that uh cavat links and cavat cliffs switched so yeah last year or two years ago it was cavat Cliffs one cab links 4 that’s where I was going
Next is yeah it very very interesting like in the methodology like I just put the numbers into a spreadsheet it spits out the list like so it’s very you know people just put it in there’s no Rhyme or Reason there’s no editorial oversight into the list it’s just very funny how
That happen we don’t do anything political on this but like Trump would be asking for a revoe or a recount or something like that like you must have mixed the ballot up or something like that and like you know but that was kind of my question is like they they flipped
And Zach you spoke a lot about you know cabat Cliffs versus cat links and the differences between the courses and and so I was just kind of as and outside are is kind of curious as to what might trigger that to be like a direct Flip or it kind of come down a
Little bit right like I said earlier I think there’s eight golf courses in this country that anybody can put number one and you can’t really make an argument against it right comes down to sort of just personal preference and what you favor in a golf course and sometimes
Even the day you see it on you know like I’ve only played cabic Cliffs once you know sometimes you catch it on a good day if you’re playing cabic Cliffs and 50 mph wind and driving rain it affects your experience if you play it once of
Course right so I mean I think it was just kind of one of those that just you know it’s a tight sort of margin at the top right and I I would add on to that that I think like it is a tight margin um I also think it represents a shift in
Ideology in our panel where to me cavat Cliffs is a very very good golf course obviously um and it’s it’s one of the best in the country by far yeah but it’s it’s built to me more around sort of like the the the wow factor like like Zach said earlier if
You’re going to send one person or send send you know a golfer to one golf course in the country it reasonably would be Cav Cliffs or even you know Bam Springs would probably be my vote or just for the historical component but cavat Cliffs is is an easy choice
Because it’s to me it’s very it’s it’s a very Canadian Golf Course where you kind of have everything like it’s almost like the modern Highlands links in that regard um cabit links over time becomes kind of reveal itself to be a more detailed golf course I would say
Like there’s a bit more behind the the the scenes and cabat cliffs where cabat Cliffs is very very spectacular every time you play it um but cabat links gets better you you there’s something that reveals it and it’s it’s like you know a great song You’re going to hear that
Percussion again in the background or whatever the fifth time you hear it um cabat lyx reveals itself to be a more Golf Course over time and I think that that’s represented by the fact that two years have passed and they they swapped right the next one I wanted to go to
Kind of keep it up top is Victoria so it’s still in the top 20 top 20 I believe Victoria right um that one took a significant jump from where it was in 2022 when we talk about kind of the difference like Zach you mentioned the top eight it’s obviously a little
Outside of that but how there’s not a whole lot of difference between maybe the top eight um I think it was just down around 16 or 18 Victoria so but to be able to make that big of a jump It’s we just talked about cabat Cliffs it’s
Literally almost well it’s as far across the country as you can go um to the other side but what would maybe contribute to the the big jump for Victoria I think Victoria largely like I can’t I’m the second most weighted panelist I cannot make a golf course
Jump six spots so it’s not just me but we had more people see the golf course and think it was better than 24th um so there were just more ballots that kind of pulled it up and I was one of the people that pulled it up a little bit
Like I definitely submitted a ballot that helped it get better than 24th largely because I think the details there are so good like Jeff mingay uh his his bunker work in restoring it was just fantastic and the golf course itself is very interesting and how it sort of balances like the
Oceans side holes versus the Inland holes and obviously one of one of the most valid complaints about Victoria is you want to talk about pacing you want to talk about routing uh the ocean holes come uh the third fourth fifth 7th 8th 9th 10th then you go Inland um but I
Think the Inland holes balance it out nicely with some interesting greens some very artistic bunkering schemes um so obviously I’m only speaking for myself but I would speculate that just like knowing the numbers seeing the ballots come in just more people rated it a little higher than before love that so
Last time when we chatted Drew in the past we look like a couple young faces on there but you can probably go back a few years and find it maybe not but um Lookout Point was the big the big jump on that list for you at the time or it
Had gone up quite a bit at the time this this time it was Grand Mir so can we talk about how like we’re getting down the list a little bit but I think it jumped like 30 something spots or can we talk about what contributed to Grand
Meter making I think it was the biggest upward rise on the list yeah D I think we should both touch on this because yeah would love that yeah yeah well I mean I think the obvious reason why I jumped is people actually drove up to shuin again to see it which aside from
Ground Mir there’s not really a reason to go up to shawin again not much um like a junior hockey team there ex buddy Champions they won the World Cup 10 years ago um God we could talk about this gr all day I think what it’s just
It we’re in an era where where social media and and coverage is basically basically shed a light on on on just about any anything that there is like you kind of you pretty much know every golf course it’s very rare that there’s one that’s completely sort of
Unknown to the golf world but that was one just again probably because of his geographical location um you come out of the parking lot you come around the clubhouse and you just see like the these gold like Golden Age heathland features Big Beer green and these sort of these these nolles and
It’s it’s one of the spots that you know golf’s about moments seeing great golf courses you know moments that c that take your breath away and stuff and and and seeing like number 10 there coming around and seeing it for the first time that this golf course from that area can
Be kept that in that good of a shape really having just you know guys who who had been there their whole lives um that and being that good in the being that completely off the golf radar it’s it’s you know it’s it’s in this era it’s insane like
Really what what about you drew can we get your thoughts on it yeah I think grandm is interesting and I speculate that we might get a bit of flak for it because we hosted an event there um in September and you know Lookout Point you brought
Up Lookout Point it was it was the biggest separator between the score golf list in ours um in 2022 2022 was our first list um and we host an event there as well but that was pre that so we were already leaning towards the Classic Golf Courses and Walter Travis um is
Definitely an editorial favorite I would say um the difference with grandm jumping 37 spots is exposure right it’s it’s initially there was three people that saw it uh last year and it barely qualified like I remember having to um I had seen Grand May uh another per like and I had to go
Find another panelist to be like have you seen this because when I played it in April 2021 I think that was probably the first time anybody ever wrote about this golf course post the Canadian golfer ending in 1937 um we hosted an event there and I I
Largely dragged a lot of our panelists up there like just being like this place is unbelievable um and so the big jump was it went from three panelists uh of 17 to now I think it’s 13 of 27 so roughly half the panel is SE Mar now um
Which is a huge contributing factor to a golf course jumping up I mean the the the top 10 most people in on the panel have seen eight of the top 10 seven of the top 10 right but when you start getting into those wasu the grand maror
The Waterton Lakes um just having that exposure of people going to it makes such a big difference and Grand mayor at 24th I think 24th is worth every penny and then some it’s a little bit north of uh like for when we talk shigan it be a
Couple hours like north of troman I guess right the way you would it’s like 40 minutes north of Tu Rivier okay all right so it’s about it’s about an hour and 20 from downtown Montreal okay not bad it’s definitely uh it’s about an hour we got some listeners out that way
It’s definitely sounds like it’s worth a look that’s it’s worth it it took him about a year to convince me to go up there and when I finally did I I’ve been there many times since and so Zach we talked about it a little bit earlier but
Um one of the biggest movers down was Colona right so is there a reason why I think it was Colona yeah I don’t think that seen col I haven’t seen Colona no if you’re going to go with this maybe yeah yeah he can speculate but yeah is
There is there kind of like reasons why we think like cologne is obviously seen by a lot of golfers every year is there any reasons that it might bring you know we’re not picking on just necessarily A Colona but any of the courses that are like maybe going down in in rankings is
There any reason why they might be again I haven’t seen Colona so it’s difficult for me to to speak you know specifically about that example one thing I’ll say again if we were doing this probably in the best way possible we would do tier rankings but everybody nobody nobody likes that
Everybody likes at 100 you know ultimately we’re in the entertainment business we’re here to entertain it and having that 100 you know creates a little bit of debate creates creates some stuff um I would say a lot of times courses that move down like that again it’s it’s fine margins right somebody
Sees it who tends to not have a predilection towards that kind of golf coures golf course especially if you’s seen a lot of courses for some reason doesn’t like it gives it and you know you might think it drops 20 spots but really it’s not a huge difference it’s
Just kind of they’re tight margins in sort of those those different segments the list let’s say you know 1 to eight 9 to 15 16 to 40 right there’s not a ton that sort of separates them and so I think a lot of it’s just a numbers game that
It’s just kind of comes down to Shakedown right Drew what would be the most scene course in the country um from your panelist cabat links and then it would be St George’s I think and then cabat Cliffs couple people haven’t seen it just because it’s it’s not like new
New anymore I mean it’s eight years old I think at this point but uh cabat lyx is number one I think it’s like 24 of 27 panelists have seen it like it’s it’s a large margin drew some of the courses that are a little bit tougher to get to
Um but still made the the list can you kind of speak to a couple of those yeah James Island outside of Sydney British Columbia um for those who are really really into the Canadian Golf Scene it’s it’s a private Jack Nicholas golf course on this island Private Island um from this guy big
Telecommunications guy he sold it to Discovery Land which uh is the company behind Estancia Gaza Ranch mirel Madison Club some of those Swanky us us private clubs um and what was cool when when James Macau owned James Island is he would generally couple times a year invite
Some of the Victoria or Sydney high schools to come play his private golf course um and that was obviously 20 years ago now so some of our panelists played that way 15 years ago and they’ve played since just kind of getting their foot in the door that way first um so
They have submitted that that barely made the threshold like James Island would probably be in my mind the most private accessible club like not a back yard club like domain lafor is a bit more private and uh some of these frogs breath frogs breath like some of these
Uh very exclusive you know single owner he’s the only person is she’s the only person that plays it um wasu in it’s about three hours north of Saskatoon at is like remote remote that is definitely probably the highest ranked golf course that’s not crazy uh private or anything that’s just
Really really remote um that qualified for the list I think 48th or 47th and uh like like Grand may like it’s just exposure really like if you if you make the Trek to wasu Lake which is north of Prince Albert like we’re getting into the basically the Arctic Circle um it’s
Really really good so just before we uh we wrap guys I hope I didn’t keep you guys too long but uh before we wrap things up so how what do we got kind of on on top for the rest of 2024 so as as we’re listening here again beyond the
Contour the show notes uh head down the show notes before below if you’re kind of in the car and whatnot stop pull over click the link go through you guys got some great content on there go through the list it’s a rabbit hole to get through but some of the things that’s
Kind of coming up for you guys um this year and some of the things that you guys are um maybe some of the courses that you’re really hoping to attend yeah in terms of like projects on the beyond the Contour side um we’re we’re releasing a limited edition uh
Print book about the top 100 so to me it’s the most in-depth look at Canadian golf since John Gordon’s book about Canadian golf where he discusses like I think it was called the Great golf courses in the country or great golf courses in Canada so it’s 342 pages of content uh specifically
Dedicated to the top 100 plus the next 50 that missed and then some background on some of our panelists some you know discussion from Architects like Jeff Ming about golf courses and rankings um some writeups from all eight of us plus I think Robert Thompson contri so Zach
Was talking about them earlier uh four event four events plus the Skins game this year so uh two have been announced Cavit farms and Branford one more in Ontario and then one in Quebec the Monday after the President’s Cup uh in Montreal so that’ll be a ton of fun um
And then generally we’re just um you know we’ll just be writing playing I don’t I don’t have any like firm plans I’m going to go to main Mainland Nova Scotia but do you have anything I gotta I gotta go out west my big my big my big
Blind spot trying to rectify it this year trying to go see those I think so too and we all want to travel a little bit more and play golf and like I know Drew when we’re having our last conversation that was still a little tight but now we all have that
Opportunity so it’s a great time to kind of get out play golf travel catch up on some of the things that we missed maybe in the past but um guys really appreciate you guys taking the time obviously like really happy I asked that routing question we went down like a
Deep deep hole there is there anything we want to miss that we or that we missed that we want to add on before we uh before we head out you want to add anything yeah sure I would say just cuz it’s the time of writing sorry the time
That that this is released we have the 100 that that that that just got released sort of the courses around there I’d say that there’s way too big of a focus on the 100 that idea where it’s like you know if a golf course is 99 somehow it’s better than the golf
Course that’s 101st right you know it it isn’t that’s not the case it reminds me kind of like the NFL draft where you know you go through the process of the draft and sort of you’ll have 22 graded first round players but because there’s 32 teams 2 players automatically become
First round picks and therefore the guy that’s picked 25th is somehow viewed better than the guy who’s 45th where in reality they’re like they’re the same graded player but just it happens to have 32 there has to be 32 picks it’s the same way on the golf courses right
Where you know that like we were saying it’s kind of sort of a big sort of grouping where they’re all sort of very similar golf courses and you know just because the course is 92nd compared to 105th I you know there’s no Reon there very they’re coin tosses right so if
Your course missed the list you know don’t get too mad at us I like that like Joe pavelski’s Joe pavelski for a reason we lost the lights in here but I guess they’re telling us to get out but you know Joe pavelski’s Joe pavelski for a reason and like obviously Conor
Mcdavid’s Conor McDavid for a reason sometimes you’re going to hit and some sometimes there’s going to be misses there’s going to be things that change but really appreciate you guys thanks Uptown asosa logo’s in behind us here if you guys want to come down and check it
Out it’s uh down at South UA come down and hit some golf balls but Drew Zach really appreciate it guys thank you thanks so much that was fun that was good awesome thank you perfect We he
