The Truth About Vokey’s New SM10 Wedges | No Putts Given

Ever wanted to talk the guys who designed the SM10 Wedges? If you know Vokey – you know Aaron Dill. Chris and Tony sit down with Titleist’s Director of Wedge Relations and Kevin Tassistro Titleist’s Director of Wedge Development to get the inside scoop! Let’s get it! Looking for something specific? CLICK MORE 👉🏽

👋🏽 00:00 Welcome Back
🧐 01:12 What is SM10?
⛳️ 02:41 Changes Between SM10 and SM9
📝 04:43 What Consumers Should Know
✅ 08:18 Difference from Older Models
🦶 09:57 Why Heel Biased
🔗 11:51 What is Versatility?
⛔️ 13:39 Different Lofts but Same Shape
🏆 15:38 Your Best Wedge?
🎯 22:02 Chris’s Fitting
🙃 30:15 T Grind Conundrum
⁉️ 36:12 Tour Players Don’t Know their Grinds?
🖥 41:00 Online Fitting Tool
🆕 48:32 When to Replace Wedges?
🍪 55:54 If Wedges Were a Cookie

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All right everybody how you living we’re back no puts given we’re on location we are at TPI Oceanside California and we brought guests obviously we have Tony but why don’t you guys introduce yourselves we we got found a couple random guys here at Titleist that we

Thought might be able to help inform our conversation so gentlemen I’m Kevin tacro director of wedge development and I’m aill director of wedge relations those real tour stuff I do tour stuff are those real term yeah I don’t know somebody else made this up introduces the wedges to each other make

Sure everybody’s getting along so obviously we’re we’re going to talk sm10 we can say that term Because by the time this video comes out everything will be fine we’re all good so let’s just dive in first we are Tony and I did fittings we’ll kind of

Talk about some of that stuff in a minute too but why not SMX let’s start there no we don’t have to start there yes but what is I guess first thing out of the gate what should consumers know about sm10 if they know nothing else what are a couple of major

Changes well uh I think it’s important to know that everything that we do when we design we look at everything we look at the shapes we look at the score lines we look at the grinds are those right do we have enough pieces in The Matrix are

Our finishes where we want them to be um my job as a tour rep is to bring that valuable information home that I’m learning from our players around the globe and share with Kevin and Kevin is the brains behind the operation who says well these are the little things that we

Have to do in order to make those changes um for me it’s really about fine-tuning the things that our players are asking for they’re they’re talking about shapes they’re talking about leading edges we’re talking about trajectory and spin management and all the little things that helps those guys

Focus on what they’re going to do which is play the best golf that they can but I know nothing about the engineering side so I allow Kevin to help me figure out those things but again it’s it’s it’s about focusing on everything possible that the line is going to be basically based

On so what what were the dominant trends like you you just mentioned a couple of them like because tour players are probably in your ear all the time right hey can you do this can you do that how about more of this less of that and then

I have to imagine you develop themes if aund guys are telling you the same thing that maybe says something what what stood out from sm9 to sm10 in terms of things that you were hearing clearly from you know like you said best players in the world the Justin Thomas’ the

Jordan spe Etc that’s a good question I think there’s a consensus amongst the best players whether you’re the best player in the world or just the beginning golfer I think that there are things that golfers value right and when it comes to wedge play trajectory is something that players are really asking

For how do you help me find find a lower launch window what’s it going to take right I tend to throw the club at impact I hit it higher than I want to why is my ball not spinning and so these are the little things that that I hear from

Players how do we make that ball flight stay through the lower Windows more often how do I increase spin around the greens that’s another thing our players love and players are constantly challenging us to come up with grinds and shapes and just general Leading Edge Topline toe profiles that are more

Attractive than they’ve ever been how long how long before so sm10 is going to be on tour and people I would imagine your tour guys going to be like oh this is great I love it but how long before you get into the but it would be

Nice if like how long before we we have to start thinking about sm11 changes based on tour feedback it happens pretty fast there’s a honeymoon period there’s a honeymoon period you know when you when you first give it to them everybody’s excited I know we’re excited

Um once we get it out into the open and players are allowed to get to know it a little bit and they’re they’re playing golf and they’re finding success with it we’re testing we’re exploring different things you know that’s where I started asking those tough questions they may

Not be forthcoming and saying hey I wish that this did this or I want this that’s where I start asking how can we do better you know what are we missing here that maybe you want us to focus on and that’s where I meet up with Kevin to

Have those discussions to say hey everything’s going really great but I think these are some Avenues we should explore for what’s coming down the line yeah so Kevin question for you too with like like I said fortunately you’re the brains behind the operation right that’s theoretically that’s a good thing um

What do consumers not get about wedge design that you wish they would in terms of like we we talked about these iterative changes right like hey right one of the most common things on tour is hey I want keep everything the same but make it better you’re like yeah no

Problem we can absolutely do that or not but you have to do that then right make it keep the things that are really good about a previous generation but assuming that that previous generation was your best work at that time now you have to also make it better

So what should consumers know about how difficult that is or where are the biggest challenges yeah I mean we focus on three things right shop versatility through grinds uh distance in trajectory control through CG and then spin through score lines and we try to improve on all three

Of those but I think the most important is the grinds part um whether or not the consumer understands grinds is again it’s nice to know what you’re kind of working with but if they just know that I need to find one which works for me I think when we all get fit for

Wedges you find out oh there is a difference and it means so much to the total performance of the club one grind may not work and produces a high no spinning shot and the next one produces a low spinning shot we’re going after that low spinning shot why does it work

Sometimes you don’t have to know why but just know that there is an option for that consumer or Tour player that will work yeah and what I mean because we’ve talked you like things that toggle right like you do more of this but that generally means less of something else

Right like there’s a there’s an opportunity cost I guess to different elements at how you design what are the biggest opportunity costs in a wedge and why does that make it challenging to iterate something that does everything but yet does it all better right so we just talked about the grind um the

Grinds come from years of research and Bob vogi and Aaron creating these grinds that work for specific players or even all the way down to a general consumer but once that soul is locked in we now have to kind of build around the soul so

If you look at your your tea and your Al grinds these thin soles that means we didn’t use a lot of the weight that we need so where are we going to put this weight okay some are easier we can put it in the Top Line we can put it in the

Hosle then you get to your larger Souls your D’s and your KS big massive Souls you know more forgiving all right now we used a lot of weight we don’t have enough now to make the whole club and there’s just there’s certain things that Aaron kind of helps us with in designing

And saying hey we can we can give up weight over here but not over here so um again the hles the Topline thicknesses but we have room in the back our back flange angles we call them uh that kind of help change the weight to make sure

We get the CG in the right spot so with so let’s just go from sm9 because that’s the one that most consumers are most familiar with right even though we know a lot of consumers haven’t upgraded since Maybe two or three generations before that but compared to sm9 what are the biggest

Differences in sm10 other than the fact that you don’t have Tony’s favorite uh finish that so to start off we have uh a new finish uh it’s called nickel yeah it is after you yeah it is it’s the reason why we did it not fair so not fair sometimes

Um that’ll replace brush steel um it’s a little bit more durable uh helps with bag chatter a lot um it’s kind of a cener between Chrome and jet black definitely more durable I totally agree um the next part is the the grind Matrix we going from 23 to 25 grinds we’ve

Added the 548 M back in the lineup and now we’re now we have the 58 and 604 T grind so the T has replaced the L for low balance in those Lofts um in terms of you know our trajectory control excuse me um the 46 through 52 we’ve taken the CG

And pushed it a little bit closer to Center face it’s still heal biased but that’s going to allow less of a draw bias so it’s going to slow down the club head during the swing help it go a little right for right-handers okay so when we’re talking about this or kind of

Talking this middle part right so the CG location has always been toward the heel right on so it’s kind of a heel side CG so what you’re saying is it’s still heel side it’s still heel it’s still this way but it’s closer to the center than it

Was before correct and by bringing it closer to the center it’s going to slow down the closure rate just to eliminate some of the draw Bo so we hear though with a lot of competitors new wedges like CG is perfectly centered and it kind of becomes a talking point a

Selling point so and and you’re saying hey we’re we’re still heel biased we want to be heal biased so what what is the advantage of being heal bias why would you want to be not perfectly Center sure so wedges in the past have been very heel biased um what does that

Do that increases closure rate from 46 through 62 well not all wedges are made for the same purpose um the shorter they the stronger Lofts 46 through 52 are probably meant for more of distance gapping with your irons so where are those CGS those CGS are kind of more

Toward Center but not centered but then as we get towards the 54 through 60s we progressively go more towards the heel because we want to incre increase closure rate because that club is used for shots full all the way down to 10t from the green so if I’m swinging it

Lightly I need to swing that club and if I’m swinging it fully I want to be able what I put into it is what I want to get out of it now if that CG gets too far towards the center or at Center that club is going to start to work against

Me a little bit if I just take the club and throw a ball at it with a center CG I’m going to get a very fast rebound if I move the CG over I’ll get a little bit slower rebound but with the CG to the heel I get a faster closure rate which

Increases speed but I lose some of that by hitting it off center so it’s kind of a a give and take but I’ve gained the ability to hit multiple shots without losing ball speed Effects by having the CG towards Center I’m starting to lose the ability to hit every shot because

The club is going to want to droop more slow down and I’m I’m going to start hitting worse shots from all over so it sounds like part of the versatility right and we we hear that in wedges a lot it’s versatile grinds what what does versatility mean to to the vogi team as

As it relates to wedge performance right here yeah well for for us on tour versatility basically means I want to be able to hit as many shots around the greens as I can I think simply put give me less bounce so I can pull off those crazy wild shots that we

See the best in the world do versatility is extremely important it’s why the te grind is the number one wedge we use on tour um but we can’t stop there right that’s why we have so many different versions of our 58s and 60s is to have versatility in different ways your D

Grinds are very bounce driven in the front so if you’re a steeper player who is a little you know is a little down you’re going to love that bounce in the front but you do have the polishing in the back to allow you to open up the

Face when you need to the m is Bob’s most favorite wedge that one is again a very similar Best of Both Worlds sort of wedge where it’s not as much in the front but it’s also Less in the back so if you need it from the Fairway you can

Have it but if you need to be around the greens you have a little width and you have a little polishing on the back to to allow for those things and then the te is just that extreme version of conditions are firm I need to hit flop

Shots you know those types of things where where where you can pull off those different shots for for the best in the world versatility is is essentially give me a wedge that does all the wild stuff I needed to do when I’m greens side yeah I I I just think it’s

Interesting let’s go into so biggest differen is again from nine to 10 we have obviously some of that but one of the things that jumped out I think Tony you would say this too is the shaping of it and and meaning like you would get wedges You’ put them down you can almost

Tell what wedge it was just by how it was sitting in front of you you guys made a concerted effort to have every wedge within a certain Loft regardless of what the grind is look exactly the same number one why why do that so I I think a big point is the

First thing that a golfer usually does when he grabs a club is he puts it down does it look good and sometimes he puts down a club to try that just doesn’t look good well don’t worry about the shape hit the grind that’s what we’re trying to test um in the past we’ve

Tried to make them look the same um but as now we’ve gotten better at using the computers we’ve really locked in call it the profile and and the hles and the blade lengths uh before putting the sole on basically I mean Aaron’s come to us and said this the te grind looks great

And everyone’s playing it but he goes you know the M Grind just looks a little different and I’m having troubles getting guys into it we’re having to do a lot of custom polishing well to help him out and to help everyone is we locked in that profile and the hles and

Then again like I said put the sole on afterwards so that when you put doesn’t matter which 60 you put down or Club within a loft set is that’s going to look the same and the only difference is the sole so maybe leading he Leading Edge height changes based on the sole

But when I put it down that shape that vokey shape that we’re all accustomed to looks fantastic and then it’s just I’m testing for grind and so kind of touching on the grind stuff usually we talk about you know the past heavily when we talk about grind it’s again the versatility piece

But but how it moves through the turf right what what I found really interesting when I did my fitting was was seeing how much the trajectory changed just by changing the grind which kind of blew my mind I’m like hey these are these are both

54s but this one is is flying a lot lower this is this is hitting the window I want to see what what causes that and why would it for example why why would a wedge that flies lower for me or hits the right window for me not be the right

Wedge to hit that same window for somebody else well fitting is very important something we talk about every day we encourage anybody who’s going to play golf invest in golf go out and experience what these different wedges do I mean how do you really know what’s

Best for you if you don’t go out and figure it out um grooves two through five is The Sweet Spot you want to live in more 8 through 12 kind of guy 8 12 place to live but when we Z through one when we talk about when we talk about

Strike locations groups 2 through five is essentially this spot here and and this is where we want our golf ball to live at all times the importance of fitting in finding the right grinds is helping us find that location more often right anything above that launch angle

Is going to go up spin’s going to reduce and the carry is going to shrink and there’s nothing more frustrating than being in kind of a go Zone scenario where you can hit the shot have it float a little bit and have it land four or five yards short and your you’re having

To chip again so when we when we work with players even with you guys like we went through this process of having you test and try different things allowing you to experience not only how they feel through the turf but where the ball is making contact and how important it is

To make contact in the right spot that’s why it’s so important to get fit number one but also to offer these different grinds because conditions are changing you know if you play in Scottsdale and it’s firm and dry or you go to the Midwest you’re going to have different

Moisture you’re going to have different soil types different grass types and so it’s important to make sure that the right grind fits your style of play and where you’re playing so like yeah like we’re saying we both got fit Tony so like what were your biggest takeaways

Like because we’ve both been through a lot of wedge fittings there’s a couple things that really surprised me on mine but like we did them independently didn’t watch each other full disclosure had no idea what was going on and yet and yet and yet we ended up

With nearly identical specs you got and by nearly identical I mean the same right pretty much so what I guess what were the biggest takeways for you from that I mean a couple things like like I mentioned before the seeing trajectory change and and I would say even

Dramatically from just changing a grind and and this time with with those shapes being consistent not being able to go like I mentioned earlier right with the uh the first time Cory sent me a low bounce K look at I’m like I it just looks different than than when I’m

Playing so it just like mentally I couldn’t handle it now to to be able to kind of move between grinds and have nothing really visible maybe something on that Leading Edge if it look really close as it’s sitting on the ground but nothing radically different and seeing the trajectory change that was eye

Opening for sure and then kind of the the little stuff around the green where we we intentionally started out with for me what is a tricky shot with a little bit of a bunker carry and I’m like you know trying to hit the te grind and be

Precise hit it high land it soft and then realizing like it doesn’t look like a lot of green but if I just squareface an F grind sand wedge and hit the easiest shot just a little painless you I’m just going to knock it up there and

Seeing that like oh look at that that shot with that low trajectory is going to stop even arguably better than the high soft one like that was that was kind of like all right wait a minute this this can fundamentally change how I approach the shot and and the other thing say

Like not having to manipulate it where I didn’t have to feel like all right I want to I want to flight this low I want to kind of just punch it up there and not feeling like all right I got to doft didn’t do all this stuff I’m like just

Just a really easy yeah like as easy as this game could possibly be right on that shot we over complicate golf we really do I mean we hit a ton of shots together and one of the things that I noticed was The Sand Wedge was was rarely used for what it’s intended for

Right it’s like we we had concept we had together think I even joked and said that’s why they call it a sand wedge you know get in the get in the sand you know the less lofted wedges tend to outperform the higher lofted wedges I

Mean there’s there’s a value in a 60 and and it’s like great it hits higher it probably spins a little more it maybe you know lands a little softer in actuality the consistency that comes from a sand wedge is pretty remarkable and when you expose players through the fitting process of understanding like

Hey you’ve got the sandwich I understand it’s a fairway club and you hit it 110 yards whatever um let’s take a green side see if there’s value in there and they hit a couple shots think oh my this is easier my lob wedge um yeah this is way easier and more consistent it’s

Through the same Windows it spins a bunch and it’s consistently Landing in the same spot 20 30 yards away there’s no reason why I shouldn’t hit this more yeah I think I mean two thoughts on that one my bias was I’m not going to be able to hit

This high enough around the green meaning you know want a default to a 60 or something and say hey because I know I can hit that high enough to do what I need as soon as soon as there’s a bunker like whatever it’s got to go way over

The bunker it can’t be enough to just be like plenty it’s got to be right well and then you said something maybe you did too the idea you know bunkers are in the ground so it’s not like yes there are pot bunkers and things where you

Have to hit it straight up in the air to you know whatever but the vast majority of bunkers on most courses are dug out and down so it’s not like you have to hit it crazy high it’s not it’s not like a tree that you’re trying to get over so

There’s a pretty good chance you’re even 50 or 54 56 is going to give you 50 sounds crazy I’m just saying but it’s going to give you enough lot I mean and so I that was something for me around the greens you know that it’s like you

Will be able to hit this high enough with enough spin to get it to stop um and I I wasn’t necessarily convinced to that you know before so what else you fit me so what give me give me some feedback on on my wedge fitting how terrible you

Into a bowling ball he fit me yeah two tennis rackets and a bowling ball but no from your because you fit the best players in the world and you work with everybody from exactly you fit everybody from Justin Thomas to me so what but I think there’s some value in that in

Terms of what are things that maybe we did that were common to that entire experience regardless of how good you are or aren’t and and where do you go man you these are the huge differences that you see when you work with players from you know

A variety of ability levels yeah I think for me I asked a lot of questions I peppered you with questions because I was trying to identify where are strengths where are weaknesses what your course like you know what what are your fears and we identified those pretty quickly we

Realized the majority of your shots are on the thinner side which means you’re not utilizing the bounce at all you’re not even using it correct so what’s the point of having it right so that correct so that’s part of the that’s part of the process is saying okay if this is if

This is my player’s fear what do I need to do to get him or her to do what you naturally do in golf which is thump the turf and allow the wedge the ball on the ground to work together right we increase bounce here and there we

Decrease bounce here and there we offer some variety in your grinds and in your bounces because essentially that’s what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to create a matrix of wedges that give you the best chance to go out and play really good golf good golf comes from confidence so if I

Can provide tools for you that make you feel comfortable in what you’re doing then you’re going to you’re going to go out and have more fun and shoot better scores ultimately so for you we identified that your 50 had too much bounce we need to actually clean up your

Strike because at times at times at times what you would do is you would make early contact yep your ball flight would go up yep your spin would reduce and you’d have inconsistent carry numbers so we early contact I like that contct do sound as bad do you have any pills for early

Contact so we changed that and now we have consistent sub30 launch good spin numbers and consistent carry more importantly right one of the things we talked about was the importance of swinging 85% speed or less and we learned this through The Sand Wedge testing right we look we we found out

That he had a 56 degree it was 23 yards distance between difference between the the Gap and the sand which is too much as it turned out 13 13 that’s a big gap you know there’s a lot of guessing going on there so trying to

Tighten that up and say okay I think we can get closer to your Gap have a nice clean distance number between those two but then go green side and I can prove to you that all the shots that you’re concerned about that’s the you can

Actually do yeah so that was that was a really interesting Dynamic where it’s like okay so we got gap wedge to you know roughly one low 120s right was kind of once we got a consistent number trajectory spin it was carrying in the low TW you know 120 so he said okay our

Next Club I you got to get me to 109 you know 108 109 whatever so I’m hitting 56 and it’s going 100 like well now we got a problem there’s 22 yards so it’s like in my head it’s like okay can we get to that

109 but am I going to still be able to hit the shots around the green that I want to be able to hit so the way you got me to 109 was really interesting though where it was the kind of quintessential less is more you know because I hit one I

Don’t know let’s say it went 108 or something like that you’re like hey just try to hit this one 105 just try to take a little bit off 105 what happened it went further that’s right I was like come on and so what happened there and is that typical at all because

I that one kind of changed my viewpoint on a lot of this yeah so we learned you were swinging really hard to get this result and while sometimes you hit those numbers which is fine there are often times when you swing that hard where the club catches up ball flight

Goes higher than you want it and now the energy that’s supposed to be propelling the ball towards the hole is now shorter because it’s just gone in the air for too long so meaing you to slow down put you in a better place of connecting with that ball and bringing your launch to

Where it needs to be which is in that mid to high 20 range um that allowed you to swing softer you actually hit your lines better so there were less there were less left bias misses less right bias misses you were right on the target line um you still had great spin numbers

But more importantly you were consistently hitting 108 yards at the right launch without effort it was pretty simple in fact you said I should probably do this with my irons too don’t like there might be something might be something because I I have been you know accused of having a very effortful swing

You know a lot of people have very effortless power I have very effortful power so it really that much power it’s not much power so I’m working really hard to generate but I think I think there’s probably a lot of amateur golfers that place more of a priority on

That effort part as opposed to efficiency and that was a huge shift for me is this idea of going from Max effort to maximum efficiency MH and that has nothing to do with wedge fitting this stuff whatever but that that’s just an interesting dynamic because then like

You said then the grind everything can do what it’s supposed to do then like you’re like oh okay well that’s kind of neat and it shouldn’t be that hard it’s 107 yards I mean it doesn’t seem like it’s really hard but when you when you’re talking about the pressures of

Hitting at 107 to a tight flag you have to hit it perfect you really do if you allowed to come up short especially where you guys probably play your golf you know that’s that’s death some tall bunkers some tough grass you know so it’s important that you can swing a

Little softer and manage how that prov1 or prov1x gets into those tyght pin locations do with trajectory yeah and like you said the distance didn’t go down it actually went up a yard or so so there was Zero sacrifice in terms of total distance in fact it was just the

Same if not slightly better and dispersion um kind of tightened up then we noticed we noticed that your Sand Wedge is not a commonly used Club around the green some occasional usage but not enough to say not as common as it should be may

Not as common as it should be yeah so I do I just grind let’s go te grind to be fair he hits the tea grind really well I love the tea grind but it CH me we learned we learned that there’s it’s not used a whole lot right right and the

More important thing about that is that he’s not really manipulating the face a whole lot when I say manipulating there’s not a lot of face opening where we’re going to have to be too concerned about the trailing Edge if you were to open up the face a great deal we’d have

To be concerned about what grind we put you into because I wouldn’t want you to bottom out early and either catch it thin and have it go hot over the greens or catch it early so so because of that that really opens up this door of well we can kind

Of do whatever we want we can try all these different grinds I’m not sure he’d even utilize the back sections of some of these grinds so we can put as much on as we want and we can make a few other shots way easier long bunker Shots indig

Grain shots you know where where it’s maybe Bermuda grass if it ever gets softer uh squareface pitching anything like that where I can essentially free you up to thump the turf like you should and allow the club and the ball to do what they’re supposed to do right that’s

A win yeah yeah it’s just like said a little bit of a mentality change there too and then let’s get to the 60s because again we both ended up in tea grind a little bit like you said it’s been always it doesn’t matter my fitting isy predetermined

No all the cool kids let’s start with a tea grind and we’ll figure the rest out right make it easy but like you said you even in this Matrix for this release you added the 58 so it can’t be just me or Tony or others like for something that

So I guess who’s the best candidate for a tea grind and because of that and why is it everyone and why isn’t me yeah no but also like what might you suggest in terms of maybe carrying another wedge just in case even the better players in the

World you’re telling me and and maybe speak to that a little bit of even best players in the world that have t grind also have something else because that’s not a 100% everyday solution no so let me start by saying the T grind why why players love it it’s extremely versatile

Meaning all the shots that they value and they need at the highest levels of golf is basically put into that club it’s a low bounce option it’s four degrees so versatility you think about that word it probably means it’s not as forgiving as some of the other options

We have but at the highest levels of golf even at levels like ours if your course conditions and your Technique fit what that wedge is all about you’re going to love it which is big reason why you guys do so well with it um at the tour level it’s all about firm tight

Lightly sanded bunkering U you know these guys are so good with their hands too it makes it’s really not that big of a deal for them to have a ton of forgiveness it’s probably a big reason why we don’t see a ton of K grinds out there at 14 degrees

Is these guys are looking for the best ability to get them out of these predicaments around the greens that that the PJ tour and most you know all tours around the world makes so challenging um that’s the biggest reason why it’s number one for us but every other grind

We make is is outstanding so if you’re playing in firmer conditions and this a another reason why the te is so good of firm conditions bunkers with a little bit of sand are very compact BAS cases if you have a shallow angle of attack if you are from the inside great driver of

The ball players tend to love that style to Soul because you’ve taken away a lot of the elements at the bottom that would equal forgiveness but add to the versatility aspect around the green so if you’re from the inside it just kind of slides through that Turf so much faster is

There a common one for one swap so if I’m a tea grind guy but the coarse conditions maybe we go somewhere that’s that’s softer or it’s you know it’s been raining what whatever what is there a common one for one with a te grind so I

Was going to bring that up next we’re we’re seeing more and more these days players around the world are adding an additional 60 or whatever their highest lofted wedges to their bags for condition changes right so if things get a little softer or let’s say we go from

An M Grind at most of the courses here in the US and we go to St Andrews and it’s baked up crispy and like this table the M Grant is just not going to work it’s just not you know that’s why we we said out a million of them to our

Partners in the UK um they’re going to have to make a switch you just can’t make good clean contacts so conditions will dictate some of that um coaching will dictate some of that too you know as players are making changes in their golf swings they might make changes in

Grinds but I would say most of the time if the te grind covers 80% of the venues you play in throughout your calendar year players love the M Grind because it’s basically the T grind on steroids it’s just a little bit beefier then you take players like Justin Thomas who

Carries a k at 6° and a te grind and bases that on bunkering so he might get into a bunker and say there’s just too much sand in here or it feels a little soft I’m just uncomfortable he’ll bring out the k for that week and switch him in and

Out what what about the vind where does that come into play Benny Taylor you guys know Benny Taylor I don’t do you know Benny Taylor Ben Taylor he’s a title of staff for ours uh he carries V and T V covers the majority of his his events throughout the year and the t

Comes out when things for so he’s kind of the the flip-flop of that the V grind is an interesting wedge because it’s a lot of forward bounce for Square Face play when things are a little soft so if you’re a little steeper maybe a little

Over the top V is great because it just kind of lets you get in and get out in a hurry but does have the versatility on the trailing Edge that you need to get around the greens you asked me a question and you just mentioned something here you asked

Me how I hit driver mhm and I’m like oh that way I’m like like yeah I hit it that way um but I had no idea why you asking me that question if I’m like it’s a wedge fitting why are you asking me how I hit driver who cares how I hit

Driver you know so explain so some of the questions you ask me are for very specific reasons of which I had no idea and that one was maybe the most Oddball seeming one to me but there’s a reason you asked that well I asked that because a lot of

Times what’s going on at the top end of your bag will reflect the bottom end of your bag so if I have a good understanding of how well you work the top end or how poorly you work the top end then that gives me a good understanding of maybe why some of the

Things are happening down here right so for me as your fitter I’m just trying to understand I’m trying to get as much information as possible typically good drivers of the ball are slightly from the inside and when they’re from the inside they tend to bottom out early

They tend to be shallow they tend to catch a lot of shots low on the face you know around grooves one two and three and those are those ones where where you just you have to you know explain to your to your to your fitter or to your player um you’re

Not using the bounce at all they go why like because you’re shallow so so that’s part of that part of that process is you give them a tool like we did with the with the the F grind today we said we have to encourage you to thump

The turf more often to actually put the bounce to work if I give you the right bottom to do that maybe you’ll do it more often and you’ll make Cleaner contact because of it so you know as I’m learning about your driver game I’m learning about your

Your long irons and how all that stuff transitions into your wedge play and that’s allowing me to choose models right away that I think are more beneficial yeah so you mentioned earlier um you know you love this time of year contracts come up you new guys and and

For for average golfers me and Chris come out here which unfortunately not everybody has a chance to do but the the wedge fitting process is transformative like you see it immediately ultimately you know like you’re seeing immediate changes in your game more so than I’ve experienced with any other club do you

Get that at the tour level as well when you have a chance to work with somebody new who hasn’t kind of gone through the full vokey experience you’d be amazed at how many really great players have not been deeply fit it’s it’s it’s crazy right some of the best players in the

World who come out here I ask them the simple question I go okay here’s your wedges why do you have those in your back you know what they say I don’t know that’s what they gave me right this is what I’ve always played I have no idea

And you just think to yourself that’s crazy right you’re in the top 50 in the world we’ll say we’ll just said you’re a top 50 player in the world and you’re out here working with us let me help you deep dive into this and get a deeper

Understanding as to why these work and why these don’t and a lot of times what ends up happening I’ll use JT post as a great example of somebody who came out here doesn’t Tinker with his equipment doesn’t even think about it he comes out here and and and I asked him that

Question and he he said I don’t know and I said well guess what today we’re going to find out why and he left with three different wedges well I was going to say what was the before and after with that because again you’re taking best players

In the world and you probably make an argument that in a way they’re Their Own Worst Enemy because they’re good enough to figure out how to use that wedge in spite of the fact it’s not an ideal fit and so they’ve kind of been able to work

Around that so so what did he come in with and what did he end up leaving with so we were we were testing all the different options he had a uh 508 he had a 5608 so an M Grind and a 608 so just kind of M grinds across the board okay

And that’s pretty common because I think some players just assume that if I’m a 608 guy 5608 is probably a good thing you know there’s some why not there’s some similarities that probably work out fine it as the fitting process goes on a big part of that is is is identifying

Weakness and selecting wedges that take that weakness to a whole another level of success and create confidence right if I give you the same grinds and bounces across the board you’re limited to these shots and you look at the best players in the world and how they build

Their bags they’re trying to build versatility not just in their grinds but in their bounces right so if you’re in soft conditions and you have low bounce everything kind of in trouble unless you’re really good at delivering a wedge so for JT he was in a 608 we realized

It’s too much bounce for you because the one thing he said was I have a hard time sometimes around the greens just not feeling like I can get under the ball so what do you do when you try and do that I open up the face what happens now the

Leading Edge Rises and now I’m uncomfortable and now I change my technique and I’m just kind of lost okay well let’s try this just shot after shot was easy he’s like wow this is really cool okay now let’s validate it and take it in the bunker this is easier in the

Bunker too so now it’s like they’re just winning everywhere so then that wedge then takes you into the sand wedge and begin to realize you don’t have enough bounce here what am I supposed to do with this wedge well it has more value than just a fairway wedge well I hit it

Pretty good from the Fairway okay let’s see what it does along buger shots let’s see what it does into the grain chunk chunk chunk so you expose them to a little bit more balance and you explain the benefits and say you don’t have to just hit this from the Fairway you can

Hit this anywhere you want with the way your game is put together and how you use a wedge these are all benefits I’m not taking anything away from you I mean it was just kind of a no-brainer there too so now you have one low bounce and one high bounce short

Game tool everything in the middle you can do now and you get into the gap wedge and you begin to realize okay we’ve got a good distance wedge here the math makes sense everything’s working out nicely do we have a bottom though that encourages you to take a divot or

At least make contact with the turf because there were often times where he would come up Shallow and he’d catch it a little thin and his ball would go low right or low yeah to low to the right yeah so we tested him in 512 and we said

What do you think of this I feel like I can just hit and that was really the defining Moment Like This is why you come and you get fit is you need to understand why these things work and now when he goes green side he can hit the

Sand wedge he can hit the lob wedge Everything feels really comfortable for him so that’s why you know it’s important to understand so he went three for three in terms of swapping stuff out yeah so I mean that’s great for for guys like you and me who are fortunate enough to be

Able come here and obviously tour guys that you work with but what about average golfers who don’t have access to this type of situation or or maybe even very limited about as far as what wedge fitting tools are available to them how how can just a regular guy go into

Something like a Dix or a PGA Superstore even a local Pro Shop where you know maybe maybe they don’t have expert wedge Fitters how can they go into a typical retail environment and come out with a wedge or two or three wedges that are going to work for their game well we

Have our app yeah hey hey I’m here uh welcome back great job uh no I mean like you said you you can get fit by Aaron all the way down to you can go fit yourself um don’t recommend that I don’t recommend fit yourself but there are options for that that’s a t-shirt

T-shirt that’s a t-shirt right there there are options uh we have an online wedge selector tool you can go on there answer questions same questions he asked maybe not get into the driver but types of shots you hit where you’re most comfortable what’s the what’s your

Current iron setup to get you the proper gapping that’s number one number two um is going to your local Pro or one of those stores and getting fit there’s an app that you hit a few shots on trackman or foresight and it will track your descending angle and uh shaft lean and

It’ll help you to determine uh again it’s asking you questions where do you use this um also just going in and just trying them um if you grab all 560s and next to the even on a mat you will know right away which ones do and don’t work hit different

Types of shots um there are some that you’re going to hit one of them the most consistent and now that we have those radar devices you can look at launch angle and spin you can see which one’s spinning the most which one’s spinning the least that’s probably not the one

You’re going to want um there are ways to do it but obviously outside on grass is the best um but the again starting with the on online selector tool it’ll it’ll get you a start on where which one is maybe the best for me but again going

And trying them um not just going in saying ah this oh this is the one in the middle I’ll do that one cuz I I’m not too high or too low you might be but trying them against each other is is your best bet what do you what should a

Golfer look for in terms of Aaron mentioned it earlier but what what’s the right launch angle for a wedge because I think a lot of people maybe think they need to hit these high towering wedge shots and you guys are saying no you want it low and

Spinny so what what’s what’s that launch angle I should be looking for on a launch monitor I’m going to add to that too what are the top three five things like so if I’m doing that right so I’m going to go in and try these couple

Things out or whatever A lot of times golfers are their own worst enemies because they don’t know what what good is you know they might be able to say hey this one feels better um but if there were you know three four five things that they should look and say

Okay you know launch angle spin whatever the case is and they’re going to do that for themselves what are those things well I would say number one is start with gapping make sure your math makes sense so work off your pitching wedge hit that first 13 yardish in between

Each wedge I think is a nice Gap once you get into 60 or 58 that’s less about distance it’s really more about how it performs around the green so I’d put more emphasis on whether or not it’s hitting the shots that you know that you

Want to that you want to hit um work on that launch angle sub30 launch numbers um simple simple math take the LOF that’s on the bottom cut it in half subtract two I think that’s a good general area you want to ready can you

Do that Tony this is a 54 what should my launch angle be we’ll go to 25 how’s that that’s close enough yeah that’s good so but you’re seeing sub30 just as a general rule to get it under 30 shoot for sub30 numbers um the great thing about sub30

Numbers is it takes a little bit of the pressure of spin away because the lower you launch it the better your spin numbers will be so when you look at trackman data you look at any any launch monitor data if you’re higher than 30 you will see a diminishing return on

Spin and carry it’s going to shrink um that’s because that ball is is not working efficiently with the face it’s a very oblique strike um so you want to get those numbers sub30 and you’re going to to see good results from that so focus on that the launch that’ll give

You the spin um if you’re doing shaft testing find a shaft that feels good has some weight to it I think that’s an extremely important thing too and L angle I’ll add I’ll add one more I you said regardless how I think feel is very important if it feels good it probably

Is good means if I hit 10 shots with each and nine of them feel good you’ve probably hit nine really good shots with that club so um we say if it feels good it usually is good well I mean it makes sense right cuz a thin shot doesn’t feel

Great a big chunk doesn’t feel great so if you’re making clean contact and you’re getting those numbers and it feels good you should probably yeah probably listen to that feeli tends to be one of those things that also helps guide you into great grinds you know if

You’re not if you’re not an expert in grinds if it feels good like Kevin says it typically means you’re in something that makes sense for you you know so sort of trust what those fields are giving you along along the field lines there again a perception I think that that continues

To exist that forged clubs inherently feel better than cast clubs you guys cast your wedges how do you20 right yeah how do you how do you build feel into a cast club and really how how important is Forge versus cast in in that in the field conversation yeah so I think

Um all that kind of came out decades ago right for forged clubs what were they they were blades right and you hit them solid they felt solid well as investment casting came in we were trying to make cavity back clubs you know move the waiting out to the sides and make sure

You have these huge sweet spots things like that cast thin faces ball speed things like that well I have a blade and I have a cast perimeter weighted Club two different clubs they’re going to feel different uh even today’s world where we do make four forged cavity bat

Clubs and a forged blade they feel different no one’s really making the exact same Club forged and cast we’ve done those tests we’ve made the exact same clubs given them to Pros we can’t feel the difference the thing with casting it allows you to do more we’ll say it gives you a bigger

Design freedom to add characteristics to the especially inside of metal woods like rails and ribs and things to help sound and things like that um we use it a little bit in wedges to help those things it’s easier to work with um and we’re able to get near identical in a

Slightly different shape in a cast Club versus a forge Club so this it’s more based on shape than it is around material steel uh 8620 carbon steel versus a 1020 forged carbon steel they’re both carbon Steels just manufactured differently and it’s the shape shape of it that really produces

That sound or feel so when you have the exact same club they’re going to feel the same but the fact that nobody’s really testing the one blade versus another blade is not the same it’s we’re we’re testing different shapes along with different forger cast so that’s where really the difference is is more

In the shape not necessarily how it’s made the last thing I wanted to ask about and this one last question this your last question one more if you want it this is your last one um we we see a lot you guys recommend I think the number you give replace your

Wedges every 75 rounds and and a lot of the feedback we get is well of course that’s what vogi says they want you to buy new wedges so kind of what’s your perspective on that like how often is is 75 the number you know or is it you know

75 for a sand wedge and maybe can I get away with a gap wedge a little longer and so talk about maybe Aaron how how frequently you replace wedges on tour and then and then what what maybe the the consumer who who who who probably has to pay a bit more than

The average tour guy realistically how often should the average guy be replacing wedges and if they’re copper should keep a great question uh for for from from the tour’s perspective we replace wedes all the time now these are professional golfers they hit balls all day they practice in the bunker all day

They play tons of rounds of golf so they’re going to see spin bendic a lot faster than we will right you take a you know Kevin’s had a great analogy for a long time about u a pencil and how you sharpen a pencil that you get that razor

Sharp Point as soon as you start using it that tip breaks off breaks off and before you know it it’s it’s it’s dull right so these guys will see that a lot faster now the where they see it the fastest is in the highest Lofts so when

We focus our attention on making fresh wedges and fresh grooves we’re really more focused on the wedges around the greens that are doing the majority of the work so a guy like Justin Thomas for example we will give him a set of wedges at the beginning of the year it’ll be 46 52

5660 he might try and play that 46 and 52 for almost two years unless I come to him and say hey we’re starting to see some funny things with your with your stats have you noticed anything with trajectory you know so he’s not going to change those out as much because that

Lack of loft is not changing the performance of the ball as much as a 56 and 60 which again is very Bleak in how that ball and that face work together so we’re going to replace that 56 maybe four to six times a year and that lob we

Might replace it 8 to 10 times a year times two because he has two different 60s uh and then we might venture down a unique path of St Andrews grinds or something you know there’s all kinds of different things at least 20 times a year roughly but I would say but I would

Say if we’re talking from a consumer standpoint it’s the highest lofted wedges that you’re going to see this lack of spin or loss of spin with so if you’re a 52 56 60 player and you hit 60 all the time you’re going to see that

Ball start to go like this over time and you may not even think about it you might just hit it and just accept it and it’s just what it is and I’m grateful to be out playing golf as it’s going up you are losing control of that ball that

Ball is going higher it’s carrying shorter and it’s spinning less so when we talk about getting fresh grooves in your bag I think that’s the important thing to remember is that does it have to be all of them no it needs to be the ones that make the biggest difference

And produce the greatest loss in uh in spin so just for argument sake let’s say so in my set I got 50 54 60 let’s just take that 54 we have ideal numbers on it so 59.75 oh we’re getting to that yeah 50 54 59 and 3/4 but let’s say I am kind

Of a trackman geek I am that consumer that hits balls in the winter and sees so okay I’m dialed in here’s my launch here’s my spin boom boom boom and I’m going to look at those numbers is there a time if it’s like hey if this varies

By more than 10% or something where you’re going to say this is definitely where you need to start thinking about you’re losing performance right not just oh we’re vogi we’d like you to buy a new wedge of course it makes sense but you are definitively losing performance as

Soon as what happens so your launch is going to go up that’s the first sign um if you put on a loft and line machine and the numbers are perfect your launch is going to go up you’re going to see a reduction in your spin numbers and your

Carry is going to shrink which means you’re going to swing harder and then when you start swinging harder Happ it’s not going higher in carrying even shorter so so usually those are the the telling signs that it’s time to start thinking about it again you’re going to

See it the most in the 58 60 62s those are going to give you again more of that slip and slide effect that that ball and that face are are going to are going to they’re going to do so pay attention to those numbers um you’re going to see it

In the face where and turn on the face is also a sign you’re going to see deformation of the face you’re going to see changes in the finish so if you’re a chrome player you’re going to see that wearing down into a darker Browner crustier color um if you have the darker

Finishes you’re going to see that as well um there are always visual signs in spin Decay now you’re going to see them again in the higher Lofts way more than you will the sandwi but you’re going to see on that as well over time yeah if you’re looking at pure numbers

You’re probably looking say 3 to 5 degrees and over 1500 RPMs of spin if you see 2,000 to 3,000 RPMs from where you started toome it’s gone cuz we’re talking you’re going from 10,000 to 7,000 or something that’s now 18 to 24 feet of roll out versus 5 to 10 when you

Started I mean now you’re having to play for that which you probably didn’t even realize you were doing well because it happen so incremental I think that’s part of the thing is like like one foot at a time right yeah like well we were joking like it’d be it’d be great if

Like the the wedge face just exploded you know at a certain one it’s like oh now I I have to replace it self-destruct it just you know some kind ofen spontaneous combustion or something where it just explodes and it’s like oh I got to replace it but it doesn’t right

It’s just a little bit over over time and by the time I mean like so many other things right by the time it’s you’ve lost performance you rightfully probably aren’t aware of it no and and that’s the frustrating thing is that if you’re let’s say you’re at 100 yards and you’re hitting your

60° and it’s not spinning very much it’s going straight up in the air if there’s no obstacle for it to stop on it’s just going to hit and release so now you’re thinking when you get to that ball and you’re like I’m 12 yards behind this

Flag do I hit this thing 112 yards now your brain’s thinking it goes 112 yards now what happens if you hit that same shot but there’s a pond or a bunker where that ball first touch down right you really only hit it 90 yards right right but you didn’t know right right so

It’s important that you have fresh grooves you should have fresh grooves all the time but if you had to make a decision to if you had to make 20 times a year 20 times a year 20 times a year just stop by the van every knock on the

Door ad ad told me this yeah exactly uh your wallet your name is not on the list sir no but uh but it’s but it is it is extremely important if you want control your golf ball you have to have spin there you have it I think that’s a

Lot of information that’s a phenomenal amount of information hopefully you could all pay attention uh if not there’s going to be a quiz at the end we’ll hand out prizes um no but we do have a challenge for you and here’s the challenge is we were talking about this

Earlier we want to associate a type of food with every grind in the VY lineup and you’re going to lead us off cuz you have a great one then I have another one to offer and then we’re just going to offer it up to people though maybe a Japanese head cover or two

Coming people’s way but start us off I’m going with cookies cookies so M Grind chocolate chip cookie M Grind is a chocolate chip cookie why because I think it’s it’s the original Bob’s favorite everybody loves it it’s a great opener cookie okay nothing objectionable about a chocolate chip cookie it’s classic it’s quintessential

Very versatile yeah you can heat it up you can have them cold they can be chips of Hoy they can be eat it ra you can eat it raw they can be home baked you could risk getting sick yep all those okay I like it deal Tony do you have one the

Tea grind is for me it’s the sugar cookie like it’s the the tea grind the one that overlooked for too long not everybody understands just how good and pure it is so yeah that’s that’s mine if we gota we got to play the cookie game

Gotta play the cookie game I like it do you have one you’d like to like offer like how did I get this no I think the white macadamia nut white chocolate came up or something like that I that was a good one I I’m an oatmeal raisin guy not

Many people like it and I think that is probably maybe like the F grind not many people like it but if you did try it I think you’d like it it’s Sneaky good sneaky good it’s Sneaky good I it is kind of the one I don’t want to eat but

It does but it’s very satisfying it’s satisfying gets you the result you want yeah and that’s what the f grind does see that’s what I’m telling you people there are options out there we still got we got K grind to go we got L grinds we

Like you said we got we got low bounce K we got high bounce K we got all sorts of options A’s and v’s and A’s and v’s and let us know what you think W grind don’t forget the W don’t forget the W grind wow are there a lot of grinds out there

Anyway thank you until next time thank you for being here thanks for all your knowledge appreciate it if you have questions again find us on the interwebs we’re around we’ll help answer some of those things we Out