Learning from gear trends on Tour and Miura’s COO talks new 602 Irons | Fully Equipped 233

On this week’s episode of Fully Equipped, GOLF’s Jonathan Wall and Ryan Barath are joined by Gene Parente of Golf Laboratories to talk what amateur golfers can learn from the latest gear trends and the rise of player’s distance irons. The episode then concludes with an exclusive, in-studio, interview featuring Miura Golf’s COO Bill Holowaty.

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And welcome back to fully equp Scotty shuffer is being compared to Tiger Woods Yasir and Jay tiger and I don’t know who else is on spring break in the Bahamas and all we want to talk about it’s a little bit of gear that’s it just a little bit of gear boys how we

Doing bright eyed and bushy tail at at at night yes yes hey it’s not night here I’m watching the sunset over the Pacific absolutely stunning man this is the best time you you could boot Jean from this uh from this chat I think there’s one that’s like banned from

Studio we’ll just ban him from Studio every time he says that I could I could send you guys Sunset I could send you guys daily Sunset picks that I take they’re pretty epic and especially when it’s a little cloudy it’s like almost biblical it’s just so incredibly

Beautiful lately I’ve taken to having a glass of wine and listening to Opera about as bougie as it comes but I figure it might as well who whoa whoa whoa whoa let’s slow down here Opera that’s that’s the word that that’s the word that caught me right there yeah yeah I swear

And it’s G to sound cheesy but the sunr the sunsets have been so epic that the only music that seemed to have matched them was like an Arya from a famous opera and I don’t know much about Opera but man it’s nice in the background when

You’re drinking are you a big uh big big pavara guy you can’t not be pavara I mean he’s he’s you know he’s the OG but um yeah it’s it’s there’s just something about those full-throated voices as the sun’s melting in the Pacific you know what we’re such we’re such assh out here

In California the greatest the greatest quote ever was RB the first time he came down and saw me down here he goes you know I always wondered why Cali Ians are such popest [ __ ] and now I understand it was it was smug [ __ ] oh smug [ __ ]

Sorry I was going to ask like how do you pick like um like an opera like there are times like I don’t I will pick like random like um like lowf like beat music if I’m like working and I’m writing and I don’t know what I’m picking I just

Like pick something and listen to it like do you know what you’re picking cuz I wouldn’t even know what to pick or where to start that’s the beauty of Spotify I just say play the all-time great Opera songs and man they’re good German marching bands pavara whatever

Tickles is fancy well I don’t know I’ve listened to a lot of music I like some jazz when the sunsets that’s cool but it’s just it’s not as dramatic and when you have these amazing sunsets you need something dramatic so Opera seemed to work and yeah so I’ve been sticking with

That that’s what I’m running with for the spring boys and since it’s here we’re going to have a nice spring so you know it’s it’s a deep cut but but you know what he’s not doing he’s not listening to it with one of his portable Bluetooth

Speakers wow it’s been a while since we thr haven’t had that dig throw have to have to re have to reignite that Grudge Feud no please let’s let’s let’s not go back there I’m just trying to Envision Gan like alternating between German marching band and pavara and col train like oh and

Standing in my underwear too that’s the other part you got to remember we’re done we’re done man this is the neighbors that’s a beauty of being in your 50s you just don’t give a rat’s ass anymore I’m standing there with a glass of wine in my underwear watching the sunset listening to Opera

And I’m like I’m the king doesn’t get any better than this well you are on like the 50th floor so yeah you kind of are the king kind of are the king all right back back to gear um there’s actually some cool topics this week that

I wanted to get into but RB I know you wanted to kick things off with with something fun yeah okay because I know I know like later in the show we’re going to talk about Trends and stuff like that and the reason I was thinking about this

Was because of earlier I was making like I was making dinner for like our kids and I had some chicken and I was like oh you know what I’m going to do I’m going to make chicken fingers I don’t want to you know go and buy the Frozen stuff or

Whatever I’m going to from SC scratch make chicken fingers I was like well I could bake them or do whatever and I was like you know what I’m going to go get the air fryer and do the whole air fryer thing and it came out kids love them I

Ate a whole whack of them and I thought at the end of it I was like you know when I first heard of like what an air fryer was and like those like turbo cookers and all those things this is like such a weird thing like this is

Going to blow over like all of these other like weird trends that you see and like kitchen appliances or all these other things and then the only reason I got one I’m not like humble but I won one in a golf tournament we don’t need

To know why but I won it in a golf tournament and I was like I’m never going to use this thing like I don’t even know how to use it and now I use it like once a week at least to like cook something and it was like it was that

Flip of like I thought it was silly I didn’t think I’d ever use it now I have one and I love it and I I came back to like golf equipment and I was like can you think of a trend in your head where you were like I this isn’t going to last

Like this is like the the dumbest thing and I used to see all the time like again working retail back in the day when like everything was popping like carbon crowned drivers and then adjustable drivers and adjustable weights and like weird inserts on Putters and all like even like big grips

Like the very first if you can remember out there the very first super stroke grip that you had to screw on to your putter shaft you physically had to affix it to your putter shaft because it was like hard plastic like it was just like the oddest things and now super stroke

Is obviously very popular like can you think of a Trend or something that either like outweighed your expectations or came and then died a very quick death that’s a good question huh I got I got one that’s a little embarrassing but it’s true for me it was hybrids when they first came out

I was like who the hell needs this I mean they were clunky looking and they just you know they they look like a mess between a fairway wood and and an iron and I just thought what’s what is and and to be honest they they tested all right but

They didn’t test exceptionally well but what what I failed to realize especially with some negative angles of attack is how easy they were to get the ball up in the air and all that mass getting the ball moving um and so they were that was something that I didn’t see as having a

Long-term Trend and I now put it in my top maybe three to five greatest innovations that that the game has you know uh presented I’m gonna I’m gonna go out of the gear space you know and and this will kind of I’m going to date myself a

Little bit but I remember when like the like the crystal you know Crystal Pepsi and there was like The Craze of like the clear yeah like sodas yeah I remember that and I was like man so does are go in this direction like they’re all going to be clear this is

This is this is the way of the world now the way of the future yeah and they they died a pretty Swift death and I I was wrong about that one so but I think it was probably because I was I was like a

Man I was probably like 10 or 11 at the time and I thought it was the coolest thing in the world a clear drink that actually still tasted like Pepsi was awesome aome like I’m drinking water this is the greatest thing ever yeah yeah 11-year-old me thought it was great

But it did die a pretty Swift death so yeah that would be a trend that I really wished it continued and unfortunately it did not I remember when when spikeless that is a really weird one we RB kind of put me on the spot man

So I had I had to I had to go through the memory bank a little bit I had to dig deep for that one yeah I didn’t prep I didn’t prep you guys for that one I wanted to throw it out there blind I wouldn’t hold yourself too much you were

10 after all you weren’t exactly Discerning as far as Trends were concerned very Discerning palette at 10 years old Jean watch your mouth I I can remember like spikeless shoes and like think thinking it was cool but it would probably go away um Fred Couples wearing his sockless Echo at the

Time you couldn’t keep them in stock people were buy people weren’t even buying the sizes that fit them they just wanted them so bad I can I can that was like to me the first like golf shoe that like hit everyone talks about like the FootJoy premieres and all that stuff but

Like that first Echo Street D eeko had a moment then yeah they were incredible like you could like we couldn’t keep them in stock at like The Big Box store you know like every time something came in people were calling if they had them it was absolutely nuts this is cool like

It’ll have a moment but now I think I remember I just talked someone the other day I think over like 65% of the shoes stole big box stores are spikeless now because people are looking for that Comfort now there’s a lot of different spikeless options and I’m not sure what classifies as

Spikeless now because there are ones that have like really big um like all kinds of different traction options but to me like seeing that take off I thought was was something that was was pretty darn cool um which I again I didn’t think it was going to but like I

Think my my the most I’ve said this before but the thing that I never thought would actually take off ever in the mainstream space but it was because I didn’t understand it and I know that I realized now there were much smarter people was Aros and like Data Tracking

For average golfers and now there’s there’s multiple apps there’s multiple different like technology whether it be an Apple Watch or all kinds of like you can just use your watch you can use your phone you can do all kinds of different things and at the time I thought it’s

Clunky it’s it’s like you gotta you gotta you know I think at the time I probably saw a Blackberry for goodness sake right like to me I was like oh who needs a phone with a touchcreen again no big one that was wrong on there see

Blackberries I was excited if and if you haven’t by the way that movie is great just I know it’s like a complete sidebar but if you haven’t watched the Blackberry movie with Jay barell and umen Glen Howard uh um It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia go watch that movie it is

It is a little bit of like a f like it’s not quite fantasized version of the story it’s like a pretty true to true to story like like whatever but like it is fascinating and it is like it it’s a true like Canadian tech company that like literally owned the space and then

Like is gone now basically um but yeah I thought it was never going to take off and I just thought like you know discussing Trends I think it’s always interesting from our perspective to like try and speculate because sometimes we’re going to get it wrong like you

Know I’m just it is the case um and I think sometimes oems get it wrong but at this point they almost always hit like they they they don’t miss now because they’re so good with technology and and understanding fitting and dynamics of golfer and track man and launch monitors

All these things you really don’t see stuff miss anymore and that’s why when people ask like what’s the best this on the market I’m like it’s hard hard to say everything’s really good it’s just what fits you and I think that’s what offers consumers I tied it back there I

Didn’t mean to but like I do find that very interesting now because there really isn’t I think there’s still misses out there I think I think we see them yeah yeah I think we see them from from time to time I I mean I think it

Usually comes off off a hot product yeah say it I was gonna say I was gonna say I think the stealth was a Miss in the beginning I think the qi1 has finally figured it out but I think that that product probably came out a little too

Early I mean for I don’t think the original stealth though Jean I I would not to cut you off I don’t think the original stealth I I think it was more like stealth too it felt like they they they kind of had an idea but but year

Two it definitely seemed like it as we as we like to say it regressed to the mean so yeah you know I mean here’s here’s the interesting thing from the old man’s perspective when I started in this business the big three other than titlist were Wilson Spalding and

McGregor you know and and then I watched this kind of explosion in the industry of growth of equipment manufacturers what’s interesting now though to your Point RB is um it’s kind of like the Auto industry now it’s real tough to get in you know there’s the the Teslas of the Rarity we

Were talking about rivan before we went on the air but it’s it’s hard to get in it’s a mature industry and so it’s really hard to to get market share but in the beginning but that doesn’t mean that companies can’t go up and down and you know there was no Callaway there was

No tailor when I started and and you know now they’re the dominant players so things can change but also you can reach a point where you have enough inertia that unless you have you know even Callaway what was it about maybe seven or eight years ago 10 years ago they

Went through a four-year run like they wouldn’t cha they wouldn’t Chase adjustable weights um taylormaid was way out in front and they wouldn’t Chase it and when they finally started chasing it they were so so far behind and they it it really hurt that company but since

Chips come on the company has really done well so even four years of missteps and not the greatest products doesn’t sync a big company like that whereas a smaller company you’d probably be done in in that same period of time the Diablo era yeah oh

Yeah it was it was all about some of those drivers are really good technology some of drivers were pretty good but they definitely did not offer the fitting options that Taylor had because of the no adjustable waiting and no adjustable hles so yeah that’s a good point that’s a really good point yeah

Well and you know the other one is old man carsten he wouldn’t go to a metalwood when everybody else went to a metalwood you know the big Bera took off ping was in his huge position and he stuck with his Pimon Woods for many years and would and and I don’t you know

I never got like an Insider’s account but he would not go to a metalwood and they lost a lot of market share in the process so you know they’ve obviously come back and now they’re one of the innovators in the in the industry but they suffered so you

Know even these Majors have some missteps sometimes or they or they bet on uh they bet on the wrong technology or they believe a technology is a fad like adjustability when it’s here to stay yeah all right let’s I mean I feel like we’re we’re getting back on the

Rails so I don’t have to well at least I’m talking about golf not some weird flavored drink that tastes like syrup or something RB asked me about Trends Uncle Jean I was started with chicken fingers for dinner I’m sorry guys and hot frers air fryers I’m the

One I’m the one who’s supposed to go sideways I’m not supposed to keep this thing like in the right direction so come on now do your job gosh all right well let’s let’s let’s actually discuss a new product that just was recently released it with M releasing its its new IC

602 it it makes me wonder did does it feel like to be relevant in the iron space you need a better player like a uh a player resistance iron not a better player but a player distance iron I mean M mura is is right there at the top if

You’re if you’re talking about about who’s who’s the who’s the best in the better player category I mean they they have they have pretty much like every possible option covered with the I mean you could you could start with the the 2011 which is just a damn good cavity

Back iron um you’ve got the 101 blades uh it’s like 502 I’m just kind of trying to reel them off my head right now 700 km 700 there’s just so many good options in there but they’re all very traditional irons this one is very Tech heavy for

And I say Tech heavy because especially for a company like mura this is this is like a IC meaning internal cavity this is a hollow cavity product it has tungsten weight it has a compressed polymer material behind the face it’s a a multimaterial iron which you almost

Never see from Europe but it just that was one like the first question when I saw these irons boys and and we’re going to we’re going to have some some more miror talk we’ve got uh bill holaa from mura I had a chance to chat with him he’s the Chief Operating Officer for

Mura awesome guy good Canadian boy I should say boy he’s way older than me Bill Bill is a is a Great Canadian boy he is he is he is a lot of fun to talk to and we we talked about more than just 602 but that was one of the topics um

Anyway but it just made me wonder like do do you have to have a player s iron in the lineup now to to to remain relevant with with the mask is I mean what do you think I I think it’s it’s something that um places that for places that fit golf

Clubs and places that are fitting Studios or very much driven by the the customer performance element I think it is something that most golfers are looking for it is BU and I’ve I touched on this actually I think I I want to say I did it for the last like Golf Magazine

And I did I think I wrote a piece about it as well um for the website but the idea that it is by far like the largest category in the iron space because it it allows the the lower handicap or the let’s call it the the Aging out of the

Lower handicap Market or someone who has a couple kids and they’re not playing as much golf as they used to and they want something that still looks like looks clean from the a dress and doesn’t have all kinds of stuff in the back of it and

It allows people who are um let’s call them aspiring players to play something that looks who who have some maybe have some swing speed to kind of play something that again fits into that category of hey I’m going to get some forgiveness I’m going to get some

Distance I’m not giving up distance I still get seven arm my buddy hit seven iron but it looks great and it’s such a weird thing because again this was one of those things where people gave again credit to the where credits due Bob Parson said I want I want a blade I want

A club that looks sexy I want a club looks forgiving and I want it to look like a blade and like it’s a pretty good impression of Bob and you know what they did it and they charged a heck of a lot of money for it and it was like man I

Don’t are these guys going to stick around you know like it’s going to be a play thing for Bob and like he’s just going to get bored of it it’s like no no this dude is in for it for the long haul he’s proven it they have proven it now

And they’ve really they I believe they have defined this category now you could say the Callo Apex as well was one of those ones that really like stepped into that place from like the big oems and then the 790 came in and was another option yep but the one that kicked it

Off for a lot of golfers although not a lot of people like went out and looked for it originally because it was again very expensive you couldn’t find it in a lot of places was that iron and now I think I mean Jean how many honestly how

Many players distance iron or sorry yeah how many players distance irons do you test and how many do we see from all of these startup companies that come in and their first iron is in ordered from some manufacturer overseas they slap a logo on the exact same

Head I’m just look go out there and look I wrote about it before too they’re slapping a logo on the same head and that’s their first Iron to Market because they know it is something that’s going to work for a lot of golfers and a lot of golfers are going to like

It well it it it kind of answers you know my issue about players blades as a whole is you you know they only work if you are consistently have an impact position about the size of a quarter and if you don’t you know they’re problematic and what you know when they

Hollowed out a players blade and and put technology tungsten or different types of waiting what they did is they eliminated the issue that most better players have with a cavity back or you know is that the top line was too thick and they didn’t like the shape so they

Took that all away so now you got a good-looking iron that’s that’s forgiving so why isn’t everybody playing it you know I mean you can you can Loft it up or down based on your attack angle and based on how you want to flight the ball but it still gives you that

Forgiveness because even the best players in the world every once in a while they miss out on the toe and if you miss out on the toe with a players blade you’re paying for it and with with these you’re not so I I just

I’ve gone on my rant before but I I I think that this is the best of both worlds and I think that it’s an absolutely essential category for the aspiring player but I think the elite player as well because they look at it it gives them confidence they can still

Hit in their quarter and and flight their ball and do whatever but when they have a mish hit instead of being in the bunker they’re on the right Edge and that that’s probably the difference of a stroke or not and that might be the difference of a tournament you know so

It’s like why why get penalized for that Mish hit just for you know some reasons that are more ego based than anything else I think I think for Mir it’s really interesting is like I’m someone who grew up in the age of like I was a a forum

Junkie every golf form that I could possibly get a hold of when I was a kid I was curious cuz was the way that I gathered information right and like was it always the right information probably not which is why I started writing and and trying to contribute to those things

Because it was like there’s a lot of misinformation out there about stuff around club building and all those things but anyways and for me and I always thought this was very interesting especially now being like where I where I am and have the access to clubs and

Stuff it’s like I had never hit a mirror iron and everyone there’s always be like what’s the best feeling iron and you always see like you know it’s is it at the time was like was it is it a Uno is it aor and everyone would be like Muno

Feels like this a feels like this it feels like like you know feels like you’re hitting a Jar full of sand it’s like really dense whatever right like you hear all this kind of stuff and I had never ever even seen a mirror iron until I was probably like 17 probably 18

19 and someone brought one in then you be trolling the internet and you’re like okay what irons back in the day were forged by mirror and then you could go out and find a set of those and you could try them out whether it be like I

Think it was like tailor made fire Soul or like the um the PCB tours from McGregor were a uh basically a cb32 branded yeah see I’m down the mirror rabbit hole at this point what happens you get those old form junky head here

We go right here we go and but it was to me it was like an aspirational brand and it still is like an aspirational brand for people who have like who want to play a club that feels great looks great has this history of manufacturing behind

It and the way that they do things so differently in such a unique way and the fact that they don’t make a lot I me you you can go out and find them but it’s not like they’re Mass producing like to a huge extent like you would find from

Other manufacturers and so what this does this spec this specific iron like the the IC 602 is it gives golfers who might not be able to get the full potential and look I’ve seen lots of golfers in my day by clubs that they should not be playing

Whether it be blades or small cavity backs or something like that because they want to play a specific brand just like you see people who don’t how to drive a car very well go out and buy something with a massive amount of horsepower and at some point wreck it

There’s all kinds of videos on YouTube or Instagram or Tik Tok whatever people get in their cars and go into the car show on a Sunday and they peel out of the parking lot and the first thing they do is plow it into a park car it’s like congratulations you just blew

$300,000 so I see this and what this does is what the what this iron does specifically is it gives golfers the opportunity to play something that was developed by the people at era and still be something that offers a ton of technology so they combine the technology benefits that are available

With the look and feel and the Soul design and all of these different things inside of this club head to put them together in the player distance category so someone could say look if you’re a fitter and you’re really looking for performance to your point she it helps

Those golfers who can say I play a mirror iron but I get the benefit and the performance the way someone who you know swings it fast and is a good player and like a low super low handicap golfer can play a set of MB 101s or 201s or

Whatever it happens to be so so are are you kind of answering my question in a roundabout way yeah I think it’s a great which is do you do you need a player assistance siren to be relevant now in the space I think everyone does I think

Every brand does I think you have to I I think it’s I think I agree I think it’s a necessity you have to have at least one in the lineup like even ping like I didn’t think ping was going to do it then they did the then they had the remember when

They they Tony fow had the mil out i500 and they miled out the logo when he had a prototype which looked really dop shinok I got the first photos everyone was trying to figure out is it is it a blade is it Hollow there’s a screw in

The toe it was like you know didn’t set the world on fire as far as like you know day-to-day people looking for K Middleton at this moment in time that’s a fun whole on the way on the internet right now but anyways people were like is it Hollow like people just endlessly

Debate it’s like oh there’s another photo of the Soul going this way like oh that Soul’s too thin it can’t be Hollow or maybe it’s filled with something or what is it and like at this point now everyone’s got one because the every OEM every company can see the benefit and

Not only that access technology or access manufacturing techniques to create an iron that offers all of these options for that level of player and we see the benefit it’s like the same with that we just tested all those Fairway woods and you have these even clubs that

Are smaller but are packed with titanium and tungsten and all this stuff and carbon crowns and they are so forgiving and they’re so straight and they’re fast whereas few years ago you couldn’t get that because you didn’t have access to the materials and the manufacturing to give that opportunity to players which

Is kind of crazy like I mean we you know people will give us crap sometime like oh is there really that much of a difference it’s like look let’s go talk to the robot guy and he’ll tell you right now he’s got a backload of data and tell you there’s a huge difference

Yeah for sure um all right if you’re consuming the podcast on Spotify or iTunes or wherever you get it just a reminder if you want to see our ugly mugs head on over to the yeah I know exactly you really don’t want to but don’t worry Jean’s not drinking wine in his

Underpants at least not at least not yet at least not yet has yet don’t forget that we have our own YouTube page now so we are at fully equipped golf on on YouTube and then also yes on Instagram but head on over there we’re posting or coach is posting the full episode every

Week on the page if you want to consume your podcast content that way um just wanted to give a plug there and and one last I we’re gonna get don’t forget our don’t forget our call-in line too yes Jean you’re exactly right there there is the fully equipped hotline

We’re not going to get to it this week we’re g try and keep it tight although we always say that and we end up going an hour and then we have an interview and um but yeah F hotline if you want to leave us a voicemail oh my gosh I hadn’t

Checked the voicemail in uh about a week or so and there’s a lot of voicemails so yeah if you want to get yourself added to the Q 602 935 4974 and again that is 602 935 4974 if you want to leave voicemail we will for sure get to your

Question on a future pod now before we get to the last subject and we get to the interview I just want to remind people though Hey listen if you want to if you’re curious about major championships this year um you know one of the big ones that I’m really excited

For is at Pinehurst and if you’re really curious about seeing Pinehurst before the US Open on number two you can check out golf.com go to inside golf it’s our our our membership program it gives you access to all the back catalog of Golf Magazine you get a subscription to Golf Magazine

You get stck on golf balls you get $20 spend at Fairway jocke get a whole bunch of stuff and you also get to take part in this call bucket list experience at Pinehurst it includes rounds on number eight as well as the newly opened Gil

Hance number 10 no wait Tom do Tom do sorry sorry it’s Tom do my apologies number 10 giving Gil some credit for thato I know because I was thinking I was thinking Corin crenchaw did number two they did the r redesign I’m like okay I was I was just reading something

About about Gil I’m all the way over the place but anyways I I got golf architecture golf architecture on the mind and if you are interested in that stuff you also get a behind the scenes to look at number two before Clos after a Clos to the public so you’re going to

Be walking inside the ropes and all that stuff which is really neat and then not only that you’re going to get inside access as well to the World Golf Hall of Fame and the new usj Museum which is built right really close to actually the um

Uh the main clubhouse at Pinehurst so if you’re curious about this go to golf.com Pinehurst experience to book your spot now and as of right now you get ,000 off the original price uh to get yourself inside the ropes to check out a a literally a a top 10 golf course in the

World just before a major championship which is a pretty darn cool experience there you go all right last talk before we get to Bill from mura for this week’s interview so if you don’t follow SMS on tour on Instagram I mean what are you doing they’re they’re they’re a really good

Follow they actually like quietly were we posting photos so it it’s the SMS is Sports Marketing surveys but they their website is sportsinsights.com and they do the uh people probably heard if and if listen to this podcast You’ probably heard of it before Daryl survey is the

Group who every week on the pj2 on Thursdays they will go up to players bags they will do an inventory of what’s in the bag and that’s how titlists can say we’re the number one ball in golf because they’re using Daryl surveys counts to verify so they’re not just

Throwing out random claims so SMS does the exact same thing on the DP World Tour and they recently posted a really cool chart um she probably give a give him a shout out on their Instagram as talking about him it’s smmscore onore tour and the chart was Club usage Trends

On the DP World Tour from 2008 to 2023 so we’re talking 15 years of usage Trends and I find this kind of stuff fascinating because we spend a ton of time talking about New Gear we we talk about what’s in guys bags currently but we don’t really do a great job just

Because it’s sometimes it’s difficult to look at the historical data because really in the last I mean what’s in the bags became very popular I would say in the last you know maybe 10 years I mean more popular than they are right now it feels like everybody wants to know what

What’s in guys bags but these Trends show some some interesting insights and I wanted to kind of get your take on this so the usage Trends look at wedges Fairway Woods hybrids and utility irons are lumped together in three irons and the the I guess the one Trend that

Was not very surprising to me is if you go back to 2008 there were basically the average tour pro on the de World Tour had three wedges in the bag that’s including a pitching wedge and now if you look at it 15 years later uh a large majority now have so

The number went from 3.11 to 3.84 so basically you’re looking at guys that are now averaging four wedges in the bag not all that surprising guys are getting longer they’re using more wedges to to dial in those yardage gaps because that for tour pro is incredibly important not a big surprise there would

You would you say guys are you’re you’re probably not surprised that that wedges have gone from three to four yes or no not not at all yeah I I don’t I was going to say I didn’t think either one of you were the the next that’s where that’s that’s where they make their

Money yeah for sure and and that’s exactly right you know these are the scoring tools you’re you’re going to want to make sure that you don’t have a lot of tweener yardages you say you know what LSP came out around this time 15 years ago readily available launch monitors yeah

Good point guys dialing in their distance gapping with their short irons and their wedges yep that’s I bet you that I mean I’m not going to like I’m I’m making a generalization and a guess but I think you’re probably bang on yeah that technology and people saying

Like oh I have this Gap I need to manage I think that’s probably why you see from now then to now why that number is changed yeah so let’s and I each one of these each one of these categories that they highlighted I want to just kind of

Tie this back into to The Listener who do you think would benefit from from a four wedge setup versus a three wedge setup if somebody were to say well we how like Okay cool so wedges on tour have gone from three to four like is that relevant to me as a golfer

Should I be using a similar setup to the pros should I go to from three to four what what would your what would your thoughts be on that no and it and it’s just and it’s just simple it’s just simply that most ameters can’t hit a 60° wedge and that’s

The you know it it’s it’s a nightmare you either blade it or you flop it and and it just it requires a lot of skill it requires a lot of precision and um and it requires a lot of practice things that most amers don’t do so stick with

Your 54 or your 56 as your you know weakest wedge and and have three wedges and you know leave that to the professionals because that’s what they do is they use those wedges and and they’re also really strong that’s the other thing their 60 degrees can go a

Lot further than you know mere mortal 60 degrees so I mean their gaps are bigger I mean it’s just yeah I I I I see it as simply a skill issue more than anything else I mean there’s tons of infomercials that say you can’t hit your wedge here’s

The miracle wedge well the reason is that because most people suck with their wedges because they you know they they they they don’t have the skill set and the weaker and Loft you get the more challenging it gets to especially off of um hard lies so you know I know I went I

Went like used Club shopping a couple weeks ago and I took lots of pictures and I was my wife was with me as well and there was a bag a full bag of like infomercial wedges and my wife’s looking because these things are so ugly and I

Said you know what this is this is a lot of bad decisions on late night television that’s what this is right here for only for only $79.99 you can prove your short game and I’m like guess what there’s a whole bag of them here that goes to prove that these things are

Still pretty damn hard to hit the the pure spin Diamond face scoring wedge was one man those I had I Mur some golf balls that that wedge face oh boy Titus love those cuz you ripped a golf ball apart in about five hits or so not even

That one one golf ball if you’re if you’re using a Bola that that Ball’s done you got a quarter size scuff mark on that ball those faces I mean the faces didn’t last for for that long but damn was that fun that that that diamond

Face scoring oh man that was a fun wedge you could act you could act like a tour pro even if you were a hack um yeah no I and I would agree with you guys I think for for most golfers they would benefit far more from having more clubs at the

Top of the set where a lot of a lot of mid mid High handicappers struggle and and not not put a 60 degree and we’ve we’ve talked about that before on the podcast Bob vogi and Roger Cleveland two of the Godfathers of wedges have both said that if you’re like a mid high

Handicapper unless you are like a mid mid handicapper with an amazing short game for some reason which is not is not a a normal combo that you would see you don’t need a 60 so yeah 5456 I agree with Jean um next on the list Fairway

Woods I I’m not surprised on this one I would say it’s actually stayed very constant so going back to 2008 the number on tour was 1.27 and 15 years later big surprise 1.28 so in 15 years the fairywood usage on the DP World Tour has not changed I

Don’t think again I don’t think anybody’s surprised here but the interesting part if you look at the trend lines is utility irons came up Fairway Woods came down we’re gonna get there we’re gonna get there we’re gonna get there Uncle Jean geez got a little excited try trying to bury the lead a

Little bit let let keep people around for for for a hot minute but um yeah I’m not surprised Ferry Woods are are have stayed constant over the last 15 years but yeah as Jean alluded to here’s where things get a little bit interesting um hybrids and utility

Irons we’ve talked about it before on the podcast there was a point where where it felt like we talk about trends that we thought were were maybe trending upward and and we’re going to stay around for a while hybrids I mean it it felt like they were

Were pretty commonplace out on the PGA tour and the DP World Tour and then it just felt like there was this massive shift as we saw utility iron usage increase exponentially on the big tours and hybrid usage has has gone the opposite direction and that’s what I’m starting

To see in this trend line here is if you go back to 2008 basically 78 so not even you know an average of of one in the bag per player then we saw around like 15 16 was when hybrids had their moment that you know basically every Pro had at

Least one and now we’ve started to see it go back the other direction and it’s back where it was in in 2008 at at basically 0 74 so that that to me I would say that the way that it’s gone that direction that would lead me to

Believe that the the usage is is fewer hybrids and more utility irons but I I also think that maybe that’s just more guys with high lofted Fairway Woods you know we’ve talked about seven Woods kind of starting to increase in usage there was even talk last week that Tommy Fleetwood was going

To use a nine wood at the Players Championship so yeah we’re we’re we’re definitely starting to see that one in particular starting to Trend back the other direction to where it was in 2008 I think a part of this as well I was say is like driving irons have

Gotten so darn hot where the technology was not there before kind of like the hollow body irons that’s you have that ability and again to Jean’s Point like it’s more like I think it’s almost more four woods and seven woods now than the three Woods because they just go to too

Darn far um like Windam Clark hit a two iron like short iron into 18 remember when Adam Scott won of the players and it was like driver seven iron and hitting a seven iron to that back left pin was like a big deal now it was like

Windam roped this freaking two iron and he hit like 270 AR like it’s it’s amazing to see the composition of players begs because of the shots they hit to position themselves around the golf course now which is really interesting I mean even Scotty sheffler

What did he hit I think it was his three utility from like basically 250 on the par three and he hit it to whatever 8 10 feet I I would I would totally agree I think I think utility irons have gotten a lot better in recent years

And I think that’s why we’re starting to see more players taking him out of the bad because look the the launch properties on a utility iron the consistency in spin and launch on a utility iron for tour pro that’s the one thing that I’ve asked other guys I’m

Like hey you had a hybrid at one point and that was maybe five or seven years ago but what what what happened and they would they you know more often than not the reason why they pulled it from the bag for utility iron is because they said it’s just it was inconsistent the

SP especially on Windy days they just had to worry about if that thing was going to just fly up the the face and just kind of right into the wind so I I get it I get why at least on the pro tours why we’ve seen guys go to utility

IRS now I don’t necessarily think again if we’re talking about the you know mid to high handicap golfers I think hybrids are great clubs I think they have they most definitely have a spot in your bag there there are some really good utility irons out there if you want to look at

Something like that but I would say based on the geometry and the tech packed inside a hybrid versus utility iron you you’ve got to be a better ball Striker to reap the benefits of utility iron there is some more forgiveness there wiers wider soulle thicker Top

Line but you can’t beat a hybrid if you’re going head-to-head something like and like a you know heel the toe forgiveness I would take a hybrid if if you are inconsistent with your with your impact consistency I I just looked it up and I I would I would love to find one

Of these in tested now compared to like a t350 or something is the the original Titus 503h with had that carbon like thing in the back the carbon composite plug those things were like impossible to hit I I can remember like everyone was super excited like tius is getting

Into like this driving iron category that was starting to take off at the time around uh like early 2000 mid 2000s and everyone like we were all super pumped when it came into like our the the first once came in and everyone was like no one can hit it it was great like

If you want to hit low low bullets like it did exactly what it was supposed to do but like you compare that again to that a new t350 T200 you are going to see something that goes higher longer ball speeds are incredibly faster and it’s going to be I I could not imagine

How much more exponentially forgiving it is when you miss outside of that little spot in the middle cuz you hit a T3 50 off the toe and there are players on the tour using them as driving irons they are insane how fast they are if you hit

One of these 503 H if you don’t know what I’m talking about go and look just Google title is 503h and if if you don’t if you’ve never seen one of these things they you probably won’t see them in a lot of golf EGS anymore you hit that thing on the

Toe it’s going to carry 160 yards and it’s G to just fall out of the sky like a like a duck you just shot at of like in duck hunt from the g whatever Nintendo game let let me ask let me ask you guys a question question what I’d

Like to hear both of your answers what do you think you have to shoot what score do you have to shoot to be considered a low handicap golfer a low handicap golfer yeah uh I would probably say the maximum what’s the maximum score you I would say I

Would say anything if if you’re breaking if you’re breaking 80 consistently I would say that you’re a low handicap golfer all right RB I was going to say a um like a to me a 12 cap is still a pretty low handicap golfer like you get

Into like a mid- handicap is like you know 15 I would say like 12 and above uh low would be anyone who’s like under like you know breaking 80 pretty consistently but they’ll shoot 84 85 like that’s to me still a low handicap golfer you don’t realize how hard that is

Sometimes to do that then then I classified as like low single digit like I to me low handicap and low single digigit handicap two completely different things well then you got SC even more yeah well here’s the reason I asked a question in relation to gear um according you know

It’s it’s it’s tough because these numbers aren’t exact but the numbers that I keep seeing bandi about are 2% of golfers break 80 2% so if if you’re looking at a bell curve to Arby’s point a low- handicap golfer is probably shooting 86 87 in the in the you know in the

Distribution and we talk about these Trends sometimes especially on the tour that these guys if they were if they had to have a handicap or plus fives and plus sixes they were in another universe as far as you know and yes some of their technology that that we highlight is can

Be beneficial to to average golfers but even low handicap golfers are only 2% of the marketplace and you know it it’s like players Blaze and all these things that we’ve been kind of talking about you’re talking about s that’s a rounding error on the general population of

Golfers and yet you know we we fixate a lot of time on these things like wow you miss this club on the toe and you really lose it you shouldn’t even be picking that club up if you’re a you know even if you’re a 12 or 14 handy C you should

Even be looking at the damn thing just watch it on Sunday and watch a master use it but don’t get GEOS aren’t listening they’re they’re costing themselves strokes and they’re adding a lot of pain to their game you know and it’s it’s kind of like and the reason

That I started thinking about this is I was looking at those trend lines and I was like yeah okay you you know hybrids might be a little spooky for tour players and you know from a consistency standpoint but for the other 95% of golfers out there that I’m going to

Consider High mid in kind of mid low maybe or even mid man hybrids are just they’re they’re they’re they’re unbelievable as far as the ease of use to swing get the ball in the air and the Forgiveness on offc Center hits for the ball to not only go straight but not

Lose distance so that’s where I’m always like you know following these trend lines they’re interesting but let’s face it I I I hope they’re listening but I kind of doubt that a lot of tour players are listening to this podcast but I know a lot of golf sickos are and I know most

Of them probably aren’t in that 2% if you just had to guess so you know go out there and try hybrids or go out there you know even we’ve talked about the pluses and benefits pluses and minuses of hybrids versus Fairway woods but there’s a lot of Technology out there for the average

Golfer and even the you know slightly better than average golfer that can really be beneficial that the tour might not necessarily be you know trending towards that’s why he’s the voice of reason and I agree I hey look I agree and I think the nice thing is a lot of golfers

I talked to and I realized still I’m talking to a small segment of the actual golf population um but I see more people asking and I get like I again my dad is like my echo board because he is the filter from all of his golf buddies and

Then they start asking questions more people ask about seven and nine woods now than they ever have and before I’m not this this is not my I’m just going to clarify this statement that this is not from me but when you know early 2000s when I was you know Frontline

Helping golfers Walking In The Big Box store people wouldn’t they like that’s a Woman’s Club male golfers wouldn’t even consider it and now people are asking for them because they see the benefit and I think you know it takes a little longer but those that information filters down and

It benefits golfers and Technology benefits golfers and it helps people shoot lower scores and it helps people have more fun and it helps them hit those shots where they say wow I’ve never hit a an iron that goes that high or a club that goes that high in L saw

From 175 yards 180 yards 100 200 yards whatever it happens to be right and I think it’s that benefit that allows golfers to just have a little bit more fun and you know have something that just you know feels a little better Works a little better at the end of the

Day hopefully you shoot some lower scores just like if you happen to get fit for some ic6 to twos there you go look at that I looped it all the way back there we go um the the last trend is probably the most hilarious because I mean it’s it’s the the most

Predictable I would say of all of these even more so I think than than the trend in wedges back in 2008 70 so not not necessarily one but getting close to like one three iron in the bag per per player on the DP World Tour now that number is

0.20 and I I wrote a story about it recently just the the lack of three irons now out on tour I mean there there are so few out there and once again I mean to Jean’s point if you’re if you have a three iron in the bag and you’re a 15

Handicap like somebody should should beat you with an alignment Rod like or that three iron that three IR well I was trying to be iting violence I was trying to be nice but yeah I mean even tour Pros now are starting to realize like there’s there’s no reason why you should be

Using a traditional three iron unless you’re unless you’re like a you know Austin eot as as is a perfect example Austin EO recently one on two or he has a three iron in the bag and and Kat notes ping tour rep been on the Pod

Before friend of the Pod he’s told me at Bay Hill that you know Austin uses that pretty extensively but he’s been playing a three iron for most of his life and he won at Sage Valley basically hitting a two iron all over the place so that guy

Again is to Jean’s point he’s a plus handicap he’s the elite of the elite so he can play a three iron but everybody else swings it very fast yeah everybody else know you should not be playing a three iron and and know by the way the trend shows it even tour Pros realize

Like this club is is not beneficial for my bag I’d rather use a utility iron fill it out with a you know higher lofted Fairway something that’s going to allow me to hit the same yardage but get a bit more forgiveness anyway I thought those Trends were fun as Jean

Mentioned these Trends are are just to have a talking point on this podcast it’s not meant to to be something that you should use as gospel we we talk we say it all the time if you’re going to look at what is trending out on tour look at the lpj tour because their

Setups are a lot more aligned with with you know golfers that are you know on the faster end of the speed Spectrum but not those guys that you’re seeing out on the PGA tour so look out there if you want to try and see what’s trending but

Don’t don’t use this as possible but again it’s fun fod to chat about so I think with that let’s get into this week’s interview as I mentioned I recently had a chance to go to Scottdale and chat with Bill hwa he is the Chief Operating Officer of M Golf Bill and I

Chatted about IC 602 miraan there’s a there’s a fun chat in there about uh kind of the the backstory on like Mira and their success with other brands Bill Bill actually let something drop in there which I thought was fun it’s a great interview enjoy it all right well

It’s always a treat when I get to talk mea and I’m sitting across from a guy who knows a thing or two about Mira products Bill how you doing man uh fantastic uh if you’ll excuse my voice which is a little uh I like it it’s kind

Of grally it is a little grally and I and and I have had comments that it’s uh suit suits the the personality but uh no Jonathan just fantastic to be with you again and uh um as excited as you might be to talk about mea I’m always uh

Pumped to be able to talk about our clubs and our products so I’m curious because we’re we’re both here in the golf industry um people always ask like how how’d you get started how did you how’ you end up here I want to know like what’s what’s your origin story how didd

You end up at Mira well it goes back a long time um I guess if we sort of do the reader digest version of this I was uh playing professional hockey in Japan and in Japan in Japan uh what’s the hockey scene like over there well uh

Ever evolving certainly but back when I played and this is uh obviously a number of years ago uh there were two foreigners per team there was a six Team league uh the foreigners on the team came from around the world there was two Russians on a team there was two checks

Two sweds and three teams had uh Canadians on them and my team was based out of uh Tokyo and certainly be became obviously a big fan and and lover of the Japanese culture even at that point in time but after my playing career was done there we my partner uh and I guy

Named herb wakabayashi uh we would do hockey schools in Japan every summer and so for about 15 years I would travel to Japan in the Summers even post playing career and uh spent a month in Japan north to south doing these hockey schools and one particular summer we um had a hockey

School down in coob and one of the kids in the school his dad was good friends with Mr Mira we were golfers at that time obviously and they were going to take us out play golf so my first introduction to Mr Mira was playing golf with him wow which which it’s about as

Good as it gets about as good as it gets but the next day we we were invited to the factory and uh I was a a a Gearhead a geek you know I I loved everything about equipment and at that time I think I was playing an old set of uh either

Powerbuilt Scotch blades or heg Ultra so it was it was really interesting to me but we got to the factory and um I was super excited about seeing this uh manufacturing process but within the factory at that time I saw tailor made clubs I saw uh

Hogan clubs I saw tiess Club clubs I saw Nike clubs and it was like I didn’t really fathom what was happening here following year we go back to another hockey school well the miror factory tour and golf was on the schedule even then so for about three years we went

Back continue to see uh um this manufacturing learning about the clubs learning about the mirror product you know domestically within Japan started bringing a set of clubs home one year friends tried it holy cow what’s this what’s the story and uh you know that takes us probably till late 1990s early

2000s and uh soon after that Muro was born and uh the global distribution of that you know superbly manufactured product um became a reality are you surprised by the growth of of the Mir brand I mean for for years I even go back to to really early on you know it

It seemed like Mira was like was talked about but like nobody really had access to the clubs but everybody that had hit them had said man these things kind of to your point they feel amazing great through the turf they they look like what you would want your irons to look

Like and now m is a global brand and you know everybody’s getting access and it’s not just for that Elite player but there’s you know even products within the lineup now that that are for those guys maybe in the mid- handicap range oh mo most definitely and and certainly the

Reputation gained was the direct byproduct of the proprietary mura um manufacturing process didn’t lend itself to mass production and you know to your point um there are miror designs and and clubs in in all playing categories right now uh you know the in it early on Mira was the

Forbidden fruit you know literally you know the again the golf Gearheads knew about it they knew of it they knew that um that Mira the Mira Factory was manufacturing on behalf of oems for their top Pro and and tour players but um if if you if you didn’t really know

That the this the story was really interesting and it was you know it it it I think gave credibility to you know the way that we approached it we were growing organically very slowly um Fitters early on um were a target of ours because they were able to

Understand and and communicate what Mira was to their customer um our first foray into working directly with Club Fitters was 2003 when we had meetings in Scottdale with uh hot sticks at the time Mark Tims starting out the original um you know sort of Club fitting template

That we see today and we had Club Fitters from around the country and uh even at that time we I can remember sitting around the table and they were talking about tolerances of Club head weights and uh again even around that table with with guys in the industry

Some weren’t really familiar with what mirror was or the manufacturing process and someone asked you know can you attain that plus or minus one gram number and uh my partner at the time U is John Hatfield John’s with Artisan golf and John said greaty yeah and he said

You know what we can’t do plus or minus one in gram and everybody sort of lean back and he says but if you want plus or minus half a gram we’re your guys so you know that type of Mystique around the club um to your point um you know was

The the impetus for for us getting started but those guys who at that time recognized whir is and it’s still to this day um our customer uh our dealers our Distributors their Guardians of that Mira brand and story and I think that’s that’s what we have to do continue to

Tell the story so more people learn about it this is an Ever evolving industry I mean we’re seeing new technologies and designs and you know ways to to make the game War fun for golfers you know mura has such a storied history in in their iron design how is

Mura kind of what are they doing to to kind of keep up an evolve while also trying to maintain their identity that they’ve had for for so many decades that’s such a great question Jonathan because I I think about that often you know remaining true to who you are and

Not chasing the next the next best thing right but I think there’s a marriage of of history and tradition and you know doing things the way you’ve always done them but not discounting or or marginalizing what technology is bringing you know to golf um maybe a

Little bit of an anecdotal story in that regard um in 2011 KJ Choy won the PLAYERS Championship playing Amura irons right and it was it was a real big step for us at the time the following year we traveled uh Yosh taka mira mira son himself myself traveled to Korea to soul

And spent a couple days with KJ and uh it was more a um an opportunity for KJ to um connect with Mira and see what was possible moving forward and we we were at the range and I remember seeing miraan watching KJ hit balls and he was

Back about 30 feet behind them on his hunches just watching ball flight then moved up to beside him you know right parallel to him and he’s listening to the contact that KJ’s making and he’s looking at his divot pattern and then he goes back again and you know over the past little while

As as you know new technology comes in I I came to realize that that was the original from my point of view launch monitor right that was the launch technology that was what he was using he knew by sound and sight what he could do to that Golf Club to you know address

Whatever needs that player had whether it be an uh you know a grind on the soul um you know whether it was upright or flat uh you know just where he was making contact so to answer your question or to at least get close to answering your question

Um the the Mira Suns that are involved shin and yaka now really pay attention to um fitting data that they have U Mira Factory itself has a ninepoint fitting um uh U process that they use that they’re they’re taking back um that information and applying to new designs

And that helps obviously with with all the the clubs that we design and manufacture but it helps specifically making and and maintaining a consistent feel and performance from our clubs so you know the past is blending with uh the now and the future and uh I’m pretty excited about that

Because um they’re still paying attention to history and what makes us different when uh but paying attention to also what the the future holds speaking of the now and the future um I’m I’m looking at an iron right here and we’re going to get into this but I I

Want to quickly discuss just sort of the release Cadence for for products mura you know to their credit you look at this industry and it’s not everybody but but a lot of companies stick to this yearly Cadence of It’s like got to have something got to have something mura is

Is you know maybe you see some products kind of released on on a more regular occas at times but for the most part mura tends to to stick to their own schedule as far as when they’re going to release products can you kind of talk about the way that they do things

Differently than some of the other oems in the industry yeah I I mean there the I guess the Mandate with the company has always been and and this has been Mira Sun since as long as I’ve known him we we won’t produce something or the Miron won’t design and manufacture something

Until he can make improvements on what’s already in place so uh there’s a a Japanese um saying that he and it translates roughly to we want to sell clubs or we want to manufacture clubs pardon me that would perform first and sell second so if they can’t take that box of

Improvement performance okay now we’re going to go to man or to uh to manufacturing then that that’s not something we want to introduce so uh you know it it’s it’s it’s different I mean industry um golf industry is not alone in terms of um you know how business

Works and um we’re fortunate enough you know with with respect to how we manufacture again uh not lending itself to mass production that we got to make sure that when when that club head is released or when that new model is released it does make an improvement

Over what was there um you we we have a probably a 4-year W um cycle for each of our models um so you will see uh a new model come out uh in a particular playing category every four years or so um again we’re not married to that exact

Time uh frame and and golf has changed over the years you know January used to be the launch date and now you’ll see launches happening uh throughout the year with all companies so um that we’re we’re we want to maintain that consistency in terms of delivering

Products that perform and uh if if the timing’s right then you know we can adjust accordingly I would say the the fastest growing category in the iron space over the last man probably five to seven years has got to be the the kind of that players distance category we’re seeing

Hollow cavity irons that that have a a better play or look but that performance of of a game improvement iron um M’s done internal cavities before but I got to say this this IC 602 that you have coming out this thing looks damn good it it really does feel like a mirror

Product how long has this one been in development for well H and and thank you for the compliments I feel the same way and uh you know as someone who sees Mir behind the scenes all the time um um I get excited about anything that’s

Coming down the pipe but I I’m with you on this this is a great looking iron um and we’re we’re super excited about it um I think a lot of the 602 evolved out of you know past multi- material models that we’ve come up with uh originally are um Genesis

9005 more recently the pi 401 um they they were they were designed um again that at the time um pushed the envelope as far as mirror was concerned um one of the one of the things that we really um are proud of with with respect to this iron is the fact that Mira’s

Reputation gained on producing forged irons that that’s that’s been you know where we’ve uh excelled and continued to excel the IC 602 uh has come about with a multimaterial hollow bodied iron that’s packaged for the intermediate and good player um as you mentioned uh the design

Um is one that uh the mura Craftsman led by Shin mura um have have focused a lot on but it came about through um feedback from from fittings from customers from dealers and the focus on on typically you know these multimaterial irons has been distance and forgiveness and

Certainly you know those are things that that play a big part from the consumer’s point of view um when when choosing a club but the feedback we received and and the data seemed to indicate that the mura player or the better player or the player just

Looking to um you know feel what a good shot feels like was not chasing distance the Mira product didn’t have to be the longest it had to certainly compete within within the boundaries of that category but what the mura player wanted was something that felt as good or

Better than a forged Club so that became the focus for the design of this club a look a sound obviously sound is really important to to a player and a feel that equaled or bettered what the forge product was delivering so once those parameters were in place Shin became

Laser focus with respect to what the design was going to be and hence instead of chasing and wanting to be the longest club we want to be the one that delivers the feel the performance the look The the consistency that a good player can rely on when you go to hollow cavity

Products one of the things that players always worry about is is that sound and that feel because you know I I kind of I’ve used the analogy before of levers you’ve got it feels like you’ve always got to pull down one lever and if you do that you need to release on another

Lever how how did Shin manage to kind of blend that you know mirror feel with with a product that that’s you know a little bit more advanced than your traditional you know muscle back or I mean there’s so many factors that go into it and and you know I’m becoming

Continue to be educated every day that I spend at the factory or with him with respect to those types of um decisions or or thoughts that he has to to manage you know obviously a club head has a specific weight attached to it in this industry um whether it’s a five iron

Typically the standard had always been 257 258 Grand So within the makeup of that club using a variety of of materials uh a body that’s 8620 soft carbon steel a face that’s crale that’s uh an inner cavity that has some polymer in it but a Tungsten weight

Also to help with you know positioning that Cog and uh and uh um impact point so you know all those things come into play um not withstanding the design of of the Soul um the attention to detail Shin places on the relationship between Loft and and face progression so you

Know so much goes into you know creating this this piece of art in in in my mind I got to hold it here like it’s just sitting here between us so it it it is it I mean as good as it looks the the performance characteristics are are

Going to be um you know I think worthy of the Mira name and and that’s been a big part of of what shin has tried to uh accomplish here kind of talk to me a little bit about this Soul design because this this is not as I’m looking at it this is not

Your your traditional mirror Soul this this has a little bit of camber it’s it’s looking I mean to me it looks like you’re going to get a little bit of of relief here in through this set what was what was Shin looking to to do with with

This Soul again so much fitting data coming back um recognizing that there are so many different swing planes swing pass attack angles and and attack angle playing such uh an important role uh in terms of compressing the ball and so you know how how do you design something

That gives you the best chance to deliver that club head to squared impact but have it you know Superior Turf interaction allowing that uh Club head to make good contact you know an ideal launch angle so you know you could build a and model an iron for one person for

One swing so a robot swing you know would be an easy design when you’re dealing with so many different variables so this Soul um that uh we miraan is calling the The mvs mura Versatile so has a uh a design that has a unique trailing Edge feature um obviously the

Leading Edge uh working to to provide excellent Turf interaction and make good contact but the the trailing edge with a a unique little notch in it um allows that club head to to uh release through the ball and and give the player the feeling that he has control over that

Club head through the shot um not just uh you know that contact and and not being able to um uh shape your shots or or or hit that window trajectory window that you want there there’s a lot more feedback that comes from the club head um because of that so design so really

Excited about it it’s it’s uh again uh modern technology allows uh Shen to uh to deliver this type of uh um new characteristic to to a m iron I’m I’m looking at the the back of this club here I think it back to all the really traditional mirror irons this does not

Look like a traditional mirror iron this has I I think it’s got like a mean look to it a little bit of an edge with this with this badging is is this sort of their their way of letting golfers know like Hey we’re we’re kind of trying to

Update our cosmetics and and give it a fresh look I I I think that hits it right on the head Jonathan I I mean when you look at what you know a traditional M iron is are very you know um traditional and classic black paint field Mira with the Mira logo on to

Um you know that that’s become synonymous with with who we are um the name and the logo obviously there but again you know this is this type of badging um on the look on this iron I think it uh it it it brings um or or

Allows us to enter into this you know category the hollow body player iron player iron category and know that there’s technology working for you here to know that the design is uh is um you know state-of-the-art and and we’re we’re happy with the look because I think it appeals to a wide

Range of uh of golfers yeah it definitely does I’m noticing this Notch here in the back and I’m sure golfers are going to are going to notice that as well what what is the the benefit for this little Notch here in the in the back of the

Yeah the the the notch um and and that was a question I had for for um uh Shen on on the design uh with a forged iron you have a tremendous amount of latitude with respect to Li and Loft adjustments um lie angle um I think you know quite comfortably plus or

Minus three degrees is uh is something that most Club Fitters will do um you know we’ve depending on on the player seen you know Ang Li angles go four or five degrees one way or the other um you know with respect to this club um it’s

Not the same it doesn’t have the same um um qualities that that a a 1020 softar carbon steel would have um in this case it’s going to allow a little bit more versatility with respect to customization so but the parameters would would probably be you know plus or

Minus two degrees um as opposed to the greater number so that you know specific Notch enables the club fitter to be able to have some uh some more ease and latitude with respect to any customization that might has to happen so when I’m looking at something like this this the the obvious question

Running through my mind after spending so many years out on tour is like could you possibly get this one into in tour Pros bag maybe at the top of the set I know that Mira’s done some work with Adam Scott um I know there are plenty of

Of other Pros who who have played Mir irons or or interested in the products what what do you think yeah I I mean I I don’t believe that we were specifically targeting tour players um that being said uh the feedback from you know the guys that are playing be it

Um Adam or Abe answerer um Stephen Ames um they all expressed you know the desire for something up there they all have a club at the top end or two clubs at the top end of their bag um that that might take the place for what the what

The amateur golfer might use as a hybrid the three and four iron with stronger lofs and and that’s something we haven’t touched on yet you know a standard forged iron um six iron uh the the the industry standard for years around 30 degrees um six iron in this set is is uh

28 so they are stronger Lofts so this set configuration comes three through gap wedge so the three iron and four iron being essentially a two iron and three iron are going to find them ways into the good players bag and and again knowing that prior to the design um you

Know recent models that we’ve released and we see most iron sets being five through pitching wedge five through gap wedge occasionally with uh with our TC 2011 or the mc502 will have a complete set but you know the our most recent cb32 was a fourth through pitch were the

Only options so here’s a club that comes with a three iron a stronger three iron so to answer your question uh yeah we see that um I I I would expect that uh we’ll get very positive feedback and uh I would not be surprised that uh we we we get

Some more tour exposure with this club that’s how excited we are about it so with Shin kind of running the show a little bit more with with these products and seeing the different Cosmetics is this a preview of what we might see from from Ura in the future is this you know

That’s where my mind always goes is like are these the are these kind of the looks that we’re going to start to see from your products going forward um I think Japan in general and mura specifically um we’re we’re going to always um you know value tradition

Within our company right and the the the look and uh the what has become maybe the the ubiquitous um logo and and name for our products is always going to be associated with our forged our forging coming out of Japan that being said um the next generation of the Mira family

With shin and Yos taka um there there is more um I think um awareness of golf and and design um around the world globally so paying attention to who your customer is um you know not just that traditional um Forge Club player but you know the the

The psych Graphics that exist out there where people are making lifestyle decisions um with regard to their equipment um maybe with with apparel with with shoes with with with irons and so to your point um the the look I think suits us um it it it it falls into a

Category where um you know we’re not living in the past and relying on over 70 years of history with respect to clubs we release we are looking towards the future and and this could be part of it so realize this is a little bit inside Basel but this is an equipment

Podcast and I think a lot of people do do care about these things because they they pay attention what’s going on but what’s the dynamic like now at at mea I know miran’s kind of taken a little bit of a step back you mentioned shin and

Yoshitaka have taken on more of the kind of the day-to-day what what is is Miran still involved in in the development and and kind of to what extent you know speaking to a product like the IC 602 so um yes I mean miran’s still involved 82 years

Old um still he need to take a break at some point at Point at some point he’s been working for a long time still opens the factory every morning at 5:30 does he really so he’s there he opens it turns on the lights gets everything

Going I just I love that I love the fact that he’s still like that’s that’s kind of his part of his daily routine is is opening up the factory that you know that’s that he created that he created yeah exactly and and you know that I I I

You know as we’ve grown you know we we tend to um I think forget that this is a a real small family business in many respects so he’s still there he’s still the number one chair on the grinding line um we were uh we were talking um

Over the years people you know that have visited the factory or asked me about the factory and his grinding um that chair has only three people have ever sat in that chair and grinded a club and one was Isa Aoki a famous Japanese golfer first Japanese player to win on

The PJ tour Jack Nicholas who visited the mirror Factory in I think 2015 incidentally miraan called that the best day of his life Wow when M when Jack visited the factory and uh and miraan himself so only three people have sat in that chair um he’s still involved in in

You know special projects customization um you know when when Shin comes up with a design and even for the 602 they’ll take a blank head Shen will communicate what he wants to his dad and his dad will literally take a blanket head and start to create you know what

About this how does it look now obviously you know with with a what a Hol body iron has and in terms of head weight you can’t do that with a a forge Club but you start to see what it would look like or what that so grind might

Look like um most recently with miraan was the cam 700 that was his design um that was um you know 70 years of of of manufacturing golf clubs that that went into the model and we’ve been overwhelmingly um Blown Away with the success of that club and how how it

Performs um but the second chair in the grinding line is Yos takas yaka is very much like his dad um an artisan um you know so he he’s the one now that um mura will be having a a wedge launch a new wedge line coming out later in the year

And that was your takas project where he you know experiments with grinds with looks with weights with distribution of um uh of the CG and that club so that’s his his his thing is is the factory and then Shin is is a little bit different from from that he’s wired a little bit

Differently from a designer’s point of view and uh certainly from a business Acumen so you know the Mir family and we we touched on it earlier all of them have a fitting background all of them you know could walk a club head from the Billet through the factory and literally

Produce the club themselves so all three are key in terms of understanding the whole mirror process um so I often talk about uh another OEM could the the president go into the factory and operate the Machinery to create a club head from start to finish and yeah

Answer no and it’s not realistic but that is something we should be proud of that are the the guys that are designing and overseeing Manufacturing and grinding for that matter they’re the ones uh who own the factory who live the factory and uh you know if you buy a

Mira Club um the odds are that you’ve got yosa or Shin or miron’s DNA on your Club head and uh there isn’t there’s only one miror Factory so whether you uh are a tour player or whether you are you know purchasing a set of clubs mirror clubs for the first time they’re exactly

The same bill I thoroughly enjoyed this chat congrats again on the IC 602 and thanks for walking us through it Jonathan my pleasure and i’ love to come back anytime and that’ll do it for episode 233 of fully equipped thanks again to bill for the time as always if you want

That gear goodness check us out on the social channels we are at FIP golf on our YouTube page and Instagram and _ equipped on Twitter thanks all for listening you see That