Super Shoes vs. Super Spikes, and Do Super Shoes Have a Plateau for Runners?

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Our own David Salas is heading into a season of track racing and that got Matt Klein and him wondering…what’s better for track racing: super shoes or super spikes? From there they spin off into debating whether our bodies plateau in their adaptation to super shoes, how super shoe adaptation may be effecting elite marathoners, and what this all means for the recreational runner.

Chapters
0:00 – Intro
5:16 – Track racing: stack height or light weight?
10:00 – Does foam compression impact track speed?
12:45 – Maximum comfort or maximum aggression?
15:47 – Do physiological adaptations to super shoes plateau?
21:18 – Is this effecting elite marathoners?
34:19 – Would you choose super shoes or spikes if they weighed the same?
36:38 – The impact of super spikes
42:14 – Are super spikes impacting specific races more than others?
51:32 – How are super shoes impacting recreational runners?
57:39 – Wrap-up

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We are a group of physical therapists and runners interested in the art and science of running shoes. Learn more by visiting doctorsofrunning.com

Hey everyone and welcome to the doctors are running podcast where we a group of doctors of physical therapy talk about the art and the science of the things that we put on our feet today I have the pleasure of talking with Dr Solas and uh you know we were going to talk about

Something completely different and we started a conversation off air and we’re going to continue it onwards because I think this is going to be really interesting so our conversation today is going to be about Super Shoes I know we talk about this a lot but it’s going to

Go a little more in depth and build off of one of the things we talked about a couple weeks ago being do you get the same training stimulus in shers shoes and how is that affecting athletes how is that affecting us so we’re going to talk about how that

Might be affecting Elites how that might be affecting recreational Runners what that might mean how to think about that from a training stimulus just because this is the stuff we Geck out on and we wna well we want to just hear what you think as well what we should also

Mention oh should I tell them or should I wait till the end to tell people so they have to listen to the end to find out the special secret thing oo special secret special secret let’s do like a we’ll find a convenient point in the middle yeah we’ll find a convenient

Point so stick around if you can handle us talking for that long it you’ll find that will’ll make it worth your time so Dr sa where are you in your training right now what what sparked the initial part of this conversation our subjective by the way that we want you to talk

About is how have you felt with the with training shoes coming into your rotation if they are how has that impacted your training in terms of what have you be able to do with it how do you feel like it’s affecting your recover y very open-ended question but how has it

Affected your training so Dr slos what started this conversation how did we get here yeah so essentially we wanted to see you know with advancements and Footwear what is the impact on your body over the you know plethora of distances that you can race and how does that fit

In a training cycle how does that fit in recovery etc etc and the reason why this all came about was I’m in the middle of a track season so I’m going to be running a 5k here coming up this weekend and I’m still trying to figure out

Myself if I want to run in flats or spikes right and I’m not running World athletic standard like World Championships I you’re faster than me I don’t I don’t need to adhere to the yeah I’m super excited to see what David could do because he’s the fastest of the

Group but I’m sending all my all my fast thoughts to you this season but yeah well thank you yeah but like I don’t really care about the 25mm thing that went into effect couple years ago like and truth be told this is actually a very interesting question in of itself

The CU remember before people would race in either spikes and some people did opt to run in Flats were those Flats over 25 yeah they might have been I don’t know yeah probably like the lunar racer or something like that that was probably over 25 people ran then yeah they ran in

10ks and that you know or 5Ks so that would technically be an illegal shoe now so anyways that’s completely besides the point um but no I was trying to figure out whether or not running economy no it’s not you you per uh a previous site it said that

No longer exists actually the Nike Lunar racer was 24 mm in heel 17 in the for for a 7 millimeter drop I don’t know if that includes the insole or not but dang that felt so much you know what one of those shoes that feel like swear was

Higher stack guy but it’s probably lower than we really realized and it’s probably a product of the times cuz we were also running in these like super minimal track spikes that who knows what the millimeter stack on that was dude I did like a half marathon I did several

Half marathons in the original Tumi Suns which like barely had anything there this would be like a mile 5K shoe not even now and so that just shows you how far we’ve come right like that that question yeah it was te track yeah I guess it was technically track

Legal yeah um so completely off the point but yeah trying to figure out you know like with running economy benefits does that actually matter in a 5k right when you look at running or below yeah like if you run a you go and look at metabolic economy running economy the

Paces that you’re doing at in theory are going to be somewhere around your marathon pace and so let’s say you are a super responder and you respond six seven per to a given shoe that’s at your marathon pace right like things can completely change when the pace goes

Faster than that and plus in a controlled environment you’re not running in a straight line you’re doing constant left turns and so does that change when you’re running in a real life situation trying to compete and go fast you know at a 5k 10K distance and I

Don’t know if I fully know the answer to that and that’s kind of what sparked this um as far as like beneficial reactions and like you could always make the argument like oh well if you train your calves up you’ll just be fine in spikes which is a fair argument but at

The same time it’s like what’s truly the better option right and like I don’t actually know right because what with Super Shoes the benefits that we’re talking about is the max stock height of a special foam and emphasis on the special foam because not everybody has seemed to figured that out although most

Companies have the special foam the plate to to stabilize that foam and direct forces the geometry to make things efficient because the foam is so tall and then obviously being on the lighter side now tra I don’t think there’s a single super shoe on the market anyway that is like that a true

Super Shoe not these like lower stack you know shoes that don’t max out the everything and maximize the Foams there’s some more like 5K 10K Flats out there but you know they’re not nearly as light still as all the track spikes the track spikes are still on that like low

5 oun like 4 o range maybe a teeny bit above six for one of them that you know well you have like s like terminal VT is like high 3es yeah and you’re totally right that is like feather light right so you have to remember that track

Spikes now have gotten a little bit higher stack they’ve got the F cushion that takes the edge off they have the stiffening agent still which used to be more paback plates and now we’re starting to see more carbon but the biggest benefit to them is that weight

And we know from evidence that as you go down and wait it things are more economical for to a certain point right if you’re running Barefoot it’s not economical right you have to have you have to have some Cushing there but the question comes up is when you go over

These shorter distances what’s really beneficial having more cushioning and higher stack or having that kind of more lower stack and that super lightweight plus the grip and that’s not something we we’ve mentioned onast is the traction from the spikes and the spike setup which I’m sure someone studied that I

Don’t know next to anything about it I’m not going to lie you go kicking in a track Spike you’re going to feel a million times better than anyo on your foot that’s that could be like the bottom of the bottom track spike like just your traction like and your ability

To get onto the track and really grip and pull like that that’s hard to beat that right you know and I don’t know how that affects if anybody has experience with that please comment below I’m really curious the only thing I know comes from my clinical experience was

One of the I forget what track spike it was I think it was an old one that somebody was used like one of the air kennedies or something like but um it was one of the ones that was it’s a it’s a distance Spike that was missing a

Spike on near the fifth met so oh yeah people were doing that for a little bit yeah when you turn there was nothing to stabilize and I had two masters Runners that came to me when I was at kasina and they were both having peronal issues because when they tried to Pivot off

There there was nothing to grip so they ended up having to really pronate and that put the pronus peronal muscles kind of in a better position to work and they were overworking that which was exacerbated by some CF weakness so that just kind of forced where they were

Going so I know you need to have an even Spike distribution across the foot I don’t know anything else about that in terms of how that affects economy other than personal testimonial like you said where it’s like it just feels better and you mentioned that because you’re the one

I’m not doing tack split stuff right now but spikes like feel so much better for Pace changes like distances and even even in a 5k or 10K like if you’ve run in a competitive 5K 10K field I know you have but more for the viewers like yeah

Like there’s a lot yeah but there’s a lot of jostling right there’s a there’s a lot of like kind of stop go like people are accidentally making contact with each other heaven forbid no one gets actually spiked but very rare to have a consistent Pace like and it’s not

Just that it’s people are aggressive they’re like like like going someone makes a move and like yeah and then you got to cover it right and like just anecdotally like even in workouts when I have been in spikes versus when I have not been in spikes if someone makes some

Kind of a move where like you negative split two three seconds on a lap like that’s a very noticeable change over 400 meters and like that being able to cover that moving spikes is so much easier than it is in Flats like it feels like

In these Super Shoes which I have wor on the track before like it feels almost clunky at first like it almost is like you kind of have to figure that change in Pace out and then once you’re up you’re okay but like that little bit can

Actually impact how a race goes with how fast some of these moves are made like you almost have to be like really like Vigilant I mean we’re talking if you’re trying to like win races and be in it and be competitive obviously if you’re running consistent splits you know in a

Perfect world it probably wouldn’t matter as much but as far as like being in context to the race in front of you like that can very easily happen right I I definitely agree I think I I’m curious because spikes right you’ve got the spikes they’re much lighter it’s much

Easier to turn over there’s also not as much foam whereas with the Super Shoes and the reason I bring this up is I’m getting miles on the SC Elite 4 right now which is a a great shoe to do long runs in like uptempo runs a marathon pace that thing doesn’t do anything

Faster than that for me like I cannot I I have trouble pushing that shoe and being able to maintain that faster speed and changing Paces Paces I’m wondering if that’s because with so much more foam there’s more compression right and that compression takes time right there’s it

Takes time to compress and to bounce back which is going to do great over half even 10K 10K half go to sleep just run your splits right but when it comes to like 5K 1500 stuff like that for people that are running at the paces that you are like

That really fast stuff that makes sense for the rest of us like myself for a 5k it may not you know like Road stuff like that it may just make more sense to have a super shoe but when you’re starting to go with those faster paces and how the

Shoe responds how quickly the the foam responds how quickly it responds makes more sense to me that you know maybe these super Foams and this economy stuff doesn’t make as much of an effect over these shorter distances and you know that gives more flexibility and what

Foams you can use how you set that stuff up so there’s other factors that are outside of my expertise in terms of how you design track spikes and things like that because I just don’t have enough experience do it like you know using them for several years I’ve got a couple

That I’ve been able to review from like a fit performance standpoint but I have my own limitations on that but I I totally going yeah yeah and then like Devil’s Advocate to myself I see guys like Dylan Jacobs shout out Dylan Jacobs like running in a vapor fly on the track

And having zero issues covering moves and kicking and doing things and then like some of the BYU boys before they made the stack height rule like they were also doing the same thing and ripping like Clayton Young was one of them like he was there before the rule

And it’s like yeah I don’t know it’s just it’s interesting because I know when I kicking I feel better in spikes and that’s a that’s a fair point too the word kicking right like we’re talking the last 800 meters maybe probably less even like you’re kind of ramping it up

But true kicking is probably going to be somewhere between 1 and 400 meters depending on where you’re going like truly going after it and that’s such a short period of your race that’s 12 and a half laps that’s one lap or less right where you’re actually at that point and

So that’s another thing where it’s like does it actually matter I don’t I don’t know if it does and that’s a that’s a a question I’m chewing on myself I will say and this I’m bringing I need to give you credit for this because it’s something you talked about that to be

Devil’s Advocate on this the the the opposite way to think about this is he talked about Comfort what’s going to be most comfortable what’s going to keep you healthy and actually get you through the race what can you actually control throughout the race so this is my advocate so someone like yourself that’s

Been doing stuff in track spikes I think for the last couple weeks correct right yeah yeah like yeah 4ish weeks now but not full workouts though we’re talking maybe second half of the workout you know you switch into them so that way I can walk the next day got it so this

Does apply to you because you said you’re not sure can you handle track spikes for a 5k so for the rest of us especially those of us as we’re starting to get a little bit older and you know David and I are still very young but as

You start getting into your mid late 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s plus you got to ask yourself what tool is actually going to get you through the race so we we often talk about this going the Marathon distance people like I want the the fastest super shoot it’s like yeah the

Fastest shoe may not get you through the end of the race I know 5K is not that long but when you’re talking about some of these super aggressive track spikes that are low if not zero drop if not negative drop sometimes you got to ask yourself can your calves handle that so

From an injury prevention and a finishing the race standpoint that’s something else to think about like myself I would need several months to prep my body even though I run in a lot of ultra and things like that I I would need several months to prepare if I was

Going to do a full 5K in track spikes just because yes performance is one thing but like you said I want to be able to run and race the next week or so I don’t want to get injured and that’s something you know I’m not trying to

Scare people but it’s a thing is what where is your limit too and it goes in the opposite with Super Shoes like I said is like yes it’s the super fast feeling like Max saite shoe but can you control that for a Marathon distance sometimes the fastest shoe may not be

The one that helps you achieve the highest performance because your own body is the other thing that you need to consider and that’s individual I think the answer is I just get a Adidas EVO One get a 5 ooun super shoe and there you go it’s the same

Weight as a track spike you’re fine got it so just every so that the EVO One is the answer both track forget it yeah the $500 shoe that I’m still dring over hey if if it lasts one Marathon that’s how many 5Ks that’s fair or 10 yeah

Should be should be more right right two two like what how many 10ks is that like four four 10ks four 10ks and then so eight like six to8 5Ks or so I’m GNA be honest with the viewers they haven’t we haven’t gotten our hands on that we didn’t

Get so we haven’t we haven’t tried it so I’m a little bit annoyed but so I keep looking at eay going oh should I do this and the whole team’s like don’t don’t do it don’t don’t do that it’s not worth it it’s not worth it’ll it’ll come around

Eventually and then we could probably get it at not 500 right or just like like two years from now buy it on sale and review it super late but so the other the other conversation we were having um which really kind of stimulus simulating us to go you know what we

Should do this as the main topic for the podcast is how these Super Shoes are affecting our training um yeah do you want to share the well should we be careful of who who we need this names no names share the story kind honestly it’s not even it’s not even names it’s it’s

Really it’s a it’s something that I’m noticing across a larger scale across the elite and sub Elite audience and that’s probably anyone that’s running from the range of 209 to I don’t know let’s say 216 and there’s a lot of people these shoes have been out long enough now but

Recent enough to where you have a large enough population of people that have run marathons and half marathons before these shoes came out and after these shoes came out and are still at a competitive age where you can’t attribute it to age you know where it’s

Not like oh well they’re 45 of course they’re going to be running you know slower than they were when they were 28 you know it’s like no no they’re still in a very competitive age in their life and a lot of people are running the same times they’re not getting that much

Better or worse you know and it’s I I’m trying to figure that out from a larger scale and I when I think of it like um from a training aspect standpoint I think as a larger you know picture here um I almost think of going I mean we’re

Obviously very science oriented and we want to try and figure out the wise of things but I think of it down to the root you know you just keep asking why why why why why and I and I go down the rabbit hole and I think dude I’m a PhD

Student it’s what I do yeah yeah and so just kidding sorry when you look at performances okay so it’s stagnant why is it stagnant well what was the major shift okay so people got faster initially all of a sudden in 201 what 16 2017 everyone in their mother started

Breaking 220 that’s fair you yeah yeah and then all of a sudden you give it two years and now everyone plateaus you know and some of them aren’t running faster than what they were before and I think to some degree it comes down to a physiologic adaptation standpoint and

This is again a rabbit hole I’m talking out of my butt here right I don’t have any data to actually back this and if you disagree please please comment below or email us because this is just a conversation we are thinking out loud so please disagree with with us if you want

Because I’m I’m with David on this but we’ll have a conversation we’ll see how this goes yeah but but I think about this right and I think about okay so why is it plateauing and let’s look at some training principles here and it’s like okay so people are putting super shoes

On more and more and more and you wear them during your workout great you run a good workout you’re let’s just say you’re a good responder you are four to 5% more economic in a given shoe and you feel good you feel less speat up and you’re getting through your workouts

You’re recovering and you you feel good and you can keep that training cycle going over and over and over again but when you look at some of the larger scale things and they and they’re when you look at the performances and they’re not getting better it’s like so why aren’t they

Getting better they feel better they’re responding to the workouts and then they go through on race day and they’re running the same exact thing and I think to some degree if the training impulse from a physiologic work side of things is not is now lower you know like you’re

Not working as hard to hit those same paces and you’re getting really good at running those Paces in that shoe but then when push comes to shove you’re not able to actually shift that gear forward anymore and so I don’t know if it’s better to do like a a hybrid obviously

You want to put these shoes on before you actually use them like I’m not saying don’t wear Super Shoes but can I interject there yeah go for it because Justin Matias who was nice enough to send up some of his research and again we we referenced him a couple weeks ago

But hope his master’s def dation events or uh thesis went well um Justin keeping you in mind um but his study although it was a small subject number there’s only two people that that continued I think with the the the flat it was a comparing training for eight weeks in Flats versus

Super Shoes and looking at economy differences and jump height and stuff like that the two people that trained in Flats had much larger overall economy improvements compared to those that had were just in the Super Shoes they also had if I remember correctly better maintenance of things like jump height

And stuff like that which was done without a Super Shoe versus those it were that wasn’t as good you didn’t have as big economy Improvement but at the very end when you compare the two of them the ones that were running in Super Shoes did best in the Super Shoes they

Seem to adapt Mo get the get like what am I trying to say they seem to have adapted best to them because they that’s now this the the environment or the tool that they are best at using those who maybe didn’t maybe didn’t respond as well because there it’s a new stimulus

So we’re not saying don’t use these but just be aware that yeah you if you if you want to use them you do have to get used to them because they are very different than traditional shoes or at least they used to be I mean things are

Starting to change a little bit but yeah things are getting closer and closer the waters are getting more and more mudy training shoe wise yeah yeah but I I just think there is something to be said for that because there’s so many people I mean even down like our top Americans

What 207 High 208 low that was the same that was the same case before super ju right like it’s we had like one or two people that could do that right and like maybe there was a like you know Ryan Hall or whomever was running one 206 yeah a special talent’s

Going to go run sub 207 regardless is how I feel you know and when you look I mean sure the masses have all gotten faster but the masses have also plateaued right like there’s a crap ton of guys that can run 210 to 215 but like there’s not that many guy

Well even 209 there’s a lot of 209 guys but like why aren’t we going any faster you know and it’s I I honestly don’t know this is not a shot at any of those guys like this is just a thinking process we’re just asking questions about by all means I want Conor Manson

Clayton Young and you know CJ Alberton like I I want all these guys to go and run really really fast you know but just looking at it objectively from the outside it’s just so interesting to like why are we staying at this area right you know and I don’t know I don’t know

What their training looks like I don’t know how much they’re in these shoes I again this is all speculation it is yeah but we’re making some strong assumptions here we’re making some very strong assumptions and I feel really bad for doing that you know this had a great

Conversation yeah I just don’t want to take anything away from any of the athletes you know me I’m always on the athlet side every single time but at the same time in order to get the most out of the athlete I do kind of feel like if

If the shift with the shoes did increase performance that much and let’s say you are that much more economic in those shoes maybe you do have to if you are using those shoes in training a lot maybe you do have to shift that training impulse to be faster and harder so that

You get that work impulse on your body and actually create physiologic adaptations because if you’re comfortable the whole time at some point or another you’re G to have to push right you know if you’re racing Elliot kog and he’s going to go run a 202 203

On you and you’re trying to be relevant in that race and you’ve been practicing for 208 you know it’s like well good luck right like yeah that’s that’s so much faster over such a large amount of time it doesn’t sound like much you know the jump between three flat and 250 you

Know is something that a lot of people can make in you know a year two years time the the shift from 210 to two flat is a whole another story the margin of error is so small right and the paces only get faster and so I don’t know I

Feel like from a adaptation standpoint to really Maxim what your body can do you almost have to overtrain in something else and then switch into it but I don’t know like I see where you’re going for both ways I don’t so what I think I’m hearing is and

We’ve talked about this before Super Shoes don’t make you faster they allow you to hold Paces for longer periods of time and I think that goes back to the track [ __ ] comment you’re like yeah these feel great holding these Paces forever but if I want to go like that

Track spike right track spike training in those that that that you could really turn over it’s the lighter weight the better traction the super you’re not going to take a track spite for a marathon but so the these shoes are designed to allow you to go longer and

From what I’m hearing I think they incre they we think they increase your capacity but if you increase your capacity this much but you’re only still training here you’re not going to get the same benefit these shoes are protected that’s a very I need to be

Very careful with how I say that word but because it makes you more economical if you don’t push to that maximal level right and you just push here even if that’s just as fast as you used to you’re not going to say get the same stimulus as what you used to get doing

These in non superoes your body still gets better in response to stimulus if you can recover from it but it has to be enough that really challenge that less stimulus less adaptation so that would make sense and I I think we’ve talked about this before that at some point

You’re going to adapt to the stimulus that’s why we were cautioning yeah these Super Shoes are great I love them like I’ve done I will explain toally yeah I they’re awesome I got a whole wall like is this is it in frame let me see I’ve

Done more insane stuff in this in these shoes than I ever have like I yeah just I I did a 10-mile run and it was I had a a 10-minute uphill Tempo workout with the stroller this morning that almost killed me and I just went and did the

Same thing before this I would have never been able to do that in traditional shoes but part of the reason I can do that is because I’m like yeah I still got energy from this morning let me go Max this out is that very smart training wise I don’t know I’m not an

Elite Runner I’m just doing dumb stuff and seeing what’s happening but that got me think yeah I’m laborat I was like that got me thinking and this hopefully doesn’t come off the wrong way I’m not trying to be rude and saying we’re not training hard enough but if you give you

Give yourself something that makes your more economical it’s not free it means if you want the stimulus to get faster it actually means you’re have to push that much harder and I was listening to an interview with rata Kenova hopefully I’m saying his his name correctly but

He’s a coach of a lot of these like super fast kenyons and one and somebody asked him like what do you think’s the biggest difference between now and 30 years ago and he goes you know there’s a lot of things that have changed our understanding is training is improved

Nutrition is improved obviously gear is improved but one of the things that is just that the clearest difference is these athletes are pushing harder and with more intensity than they ever have and part of that might be some of the shoes allow them to do that but they are

Running so fast and what kind of struck me is he’s like yeah these athletes are running like 98% 99% of their marathon pace for almost a marathon every like 10 days to two weeks that’s insane that means totally when they get when they get to Marathon day they’re like yeah

I’ve done this all the time nothing new it’s not a foreign experience it’s not foreign experience we are like good luck staying with them because then when they get that last like 5% that you can give during a race then you’re like oh my gosh so we really shouldn’t be surprised

When people are running like uh the recing with the Tokyo Marathon that ran 202 it’s like yeah he probably does not far off that like aund times like that’s yeah you know but I think that’s an example of and I need to be very cautious when I

Say this is people some people are willing to take these things and push them to the absolute limit and if you’re hurting just as much as you did before you’re going to get the stimulus you have to realize that if you do the same thing as you did with the Super Shoes

Before you may not experience as much improvement and you may Plateau quicker because you’re not this is so rude you’re he’s like you’re not pushing as much as hard enough hard right I’m not meaning to be rude but I also wonder if it’s not just

Hey are you pushing as hard as you are you pushing enough is are we simplifying this maybe that’s not the case maybe there is some level of adaptation that your body goes through it’s like well I don’t need to right like there’s something you can make the case too like

Something in nervous system yeah something that that like holds you back or like cuz I’m seeing you’re totally right like I’ve seen this and had a lot of athletes that I’ve talking to non- Elites to go yeah I had such a huge Burst when these shoes came out now I

I’m struggling to get faster right and there’s lots of factors that go into this I think what David and I are trying to get at is and you correct me in just a second is you know are is the concept of maybe having some things to rotate through and really thinking about what’s

The point of this to Tool and being really specific with it important which we’re not going to do because we’re shoe Geeks and we’re going to run in whatever and do stupid well I am you’re smarter than I am I’m laughing because our original episode was on shoe rotations I know

Maybe we should you’re like oh we’re going to do a rotation should we go into that now like go back to now we don’t need a three-hour episode on our hand two three hours speaking of which before I have go any further for those of you that have

Made it this far 30 minutes of this episode so we promised you we tell you that super secret so we are partnering with running Warehouse over the next several episodes and several weeks um and they’ve been graci enough to provide us a couple $1 gift cards that we’re

Going to be giving out each episode so if you want to be entered in the raffle for one of these please on YouTube please comment below and you’ll be automatically entered so hey just answer the subjective give us a hard time tell us we’re wrong do something right enter

In below and uh comment below and we’ll you’ll be entered in uh to the raffle that we will happily give away to support all your uh running needs that we are causing I’m just kidding yeah congrats made this far through us geing out but it’s just an interesting concept

Right like and I think too one thing with a lot of those like East African training groups again assumption I don’t live with them I don’t train with them right but so much of their runs are on like rolling dirt roads and like they they’re working you know you see what

They’re doing like they are not you could run that easy and that’s still a solid run like some of the stuff I see and I’m like holy crap they’re running that pace through that and it’s like okay now put them on a flat Road and they’re going to run like it’s not that

Hard right so I think some of it too is just literal training stimulus as well they when I I was very fortunate before I left for PT school down in Southern California when I was I came back from college I probably told the story before I came back to Portland in college and

While I was working at a couple running stores during that summer I was very lucky that I met a couple guys from Kenya and Ethiopia who are running for Nike idas which were located their headquart US headquarters are in Oregon they were nice enough to say hey you

Want to tag along and I was like sure um and they were the absolute masters of knowing when to push and when not to so I think they optimize that training stimulus because when we were running easy it was like eight nine 10 minute pace and these guys were all that time

This is like a decade ago they before Super Shoes were all like 205 206 207 guys running 89 10 minute pace on easy runs but the second they did anything remotely hard I got dusted they were running so fast and I was a 30 coming

Off being a sub 15 minute 5K like 31 minute 10K guy in college and I was like you know it’s not the fastest right I’m not D1 but they would just crush me and then when they run easy and so part of that is hey how hard are you going like

Are you maybe thinking about the watch too much and somebody asked us the other day going hey do you train by watch or by effort it’s like I’m an effort person I just the Watchers are just be like oh that’s interesting but yeah yeah I think they’ve optimized like that that

Training the the the stimulus and Recovery stuff really really well but that’s a strong like you said we’re not there I’ve never been to Kenya Ethiopia or any other of the East African countries of people that are really excelling and being like running 202 I don’t know I don’t know if drugs are

Involved too I know that’s a big accusation right now I have no idea I know somebody’s gonna throw that out there YouTube comment not to take anything away right that happens in all I don’t know somebody’s gonna say that I know doping you know man that was not something I was ready

Fortable I don’t know I have no idea I I don’t I don’t know right it’s it’s it’s amazing the amazing human body but if you want to get that level regardless of the country or where anyone is yeah it’s rampant in any Endurance Sports so I guess there’s always some speculation I

Don’t know we’re not there we have no idea but just curious going back to the shoes asking like hey you know we always talk about shoes or tools and how are how are this how are we utilizing these tools if you want to optimize your performance if not don’t ignore all of

This but if you’re trying to optimize your performance no matter if you’re running a 30 minute 5K or a 12 minute 12 and a half minute 5K it doesn’t matter it’s still like maybe it does but it you know how are we adapting this how are we getting that no it doesn’t matter

Because at the end of the day we get better stimulus and rest right that and the more you can optimize that the higher you’ll perform and who knows what your limit is right so yeah and that’s not to say there’s always always some level of a specificity right like you’re

If you’re going to go run a 12 something 5K in spikes chances are you do a lot of Spike work yeah like you feel comfortable running a 12 something in spikes on 5K so I guess so here’s my question if you had because this goes back to David trying to decide do you

Want to wear flats or spikes for this upcoming 5K so if you had spikes and super shoes that both weighed the same amount out which would you choose yeah and that’s a great question right like and I think it would depend on I think it wouldn’t be on the weight

I think it would be on how the shoe feels at the toe off you know like how do I actually feel when I’m trying to push the pace because at some point or another you’re going to have to pick up the pace you’re going to have to respond

To a move like you’re going to going off the line like you don’t need to be urgent you watch 5Ks a lot of times people just get off the line and like maybe they run fast for 50 met and then everyone settles yeah right like everyone just kind of settles into

Whatever the pace that race is going right so obviously like if you’re running a 13 low like world class 5K for them that’s still a pretty comfortable Pace right it’s comfortable until it isn’t right and that’s how it is for any race but like you watch them they all

Look like they’re jogging they’re they’re they’re fine you know yeah then you pass two miles and then the race begins right and so that’s going to happen whether or not you’re a 12 minute or 30 minute right like like you said and it’s really what happens in that

Third Mile and so that’s the thing where I was thinking earlier I was like well if I feel good like if my calves are good and everything feels great in the third mile maybe the super shoe is the answer but if I really want to pick it

Up and I’m trying to be aggressive and I’m going and really leaning into the track and I don’t feel I feel clunky in the supero or something like then I’m G to really want that Spike right assuming my legs hold up and everything’s equal you know um so I

Don’t know it’s just it was just a thought bubble that popped up and I figured we just make a little episode out of that I don’t know I don’t know 36 minutes later a little yeah I I think um the only way to truly respond to that is

To have a pair of evos right so if anyone’s out there listening wants to send me some Dave and I evil one soft plug no so what do you think and we also talked about this a little bit but you know a lot of the Spikes have changed too like the the

Spikes yest of course we didn’t address that spikes of yester year for those who who use them were I’ll some are not the same at all right like where’s oh I don’t have any I I finally I donated my avanes my my original like before the

Live strike Pro I oh I don’t have them I don’t have my I gave one of your teammates my pair I still have my uh no not the not the Light Strike Pro one though but the the regular just just straight up track spike oh the like the

Red on white do you remember the real bright cherry red yeah like those ones I don’t have them anymore that’s actually a shame I was wearing them in that picture right there that was do you have the current like some of your current track spikes right now yeah yeah

I’ve got a few let me just grab them do you know is there an embargo on the one I showed you before the episode you didn’t show me at track spike before the episode I did I already talked about it we just won’t grab that

One yeah that’s fine let me uh let me see here all right here we go I wonder if BJ is going to edit this part out or not we’ll find out I’m curious there’s one there’s another okay I mean Casper sorry Casper the Friendly Ghost strikes again um s terminal

VT really solid Spike I actually I think this ironically it’s meant for like the distances 5K 10K I think when I was in college this could have been like an ideal 1500 Spike for me agreed I never really loved the really aggressive spikes and so this with how light it is

I mean this thing’s like High three ounces I think like it’s it’s this is light like you put pick this up it doesn’t feel like much but it has good stack for the track spike world power on HG that’s in the Endorphin Elite that’s I’m not saying it just subjective yeah

Uh Adida saan Light Strike Pro you know fits right at that world athletic stack height standard a little bit heavier a little less aggressive a little more flexible so for those that kind of want that that’s a good option that is classic Adidas track spike by the way

Like that the Avant Al’s always been like that a little bit heavier almost like borderline of flat that’s okay yeah yeah and then you have the dragonfly so very clearly a spike right where it has that very spooned out kind of feel to it but the zoomx midsole is in it and it

Again abides by World athletic standards oh there’s no embargo on the shoe we talked about no no there isn’t okay I’ll gra it then you can buy it on their website oh sweet okay cool yeah I don’t know I I’m the one that thinks about these things before I say things I’ll

I’ll put that out there it’s on their website because I stuck everyone’s websites to see what’s available that’s um New Balance MDX so this has been out for a minute but that’s been out for a while yeah but here’s a good thing right here spikes are aggressive right and so this is a

Middle distance Spike yes I’ve run in it but it’s very spooned out you’re very on your toes it amazes me that people will run 5Ks in that that is insane to me people do yeah Emma Coburn was racing the 3K steep in this yeah like that makes sense yeah granted she’s probably

Got Cavs of Ste yes but uh let me see so the other one and it kind of sparked the conversation because these were a recent acquisition um the Brooks Hyperion LD yeah Hyperion Elite LD Hyperion LD doesn’t matter um but yeah it’s their longdistance track spike obviously Josh

Kerr has been running quite well in it um but I think we were saying this before I think Josh Kerr would run fast because he’s Josh Kerr yeah regardless of what’s on his foot you know again always on the side of the athlete here yeah but um so that that is you’re right

That is what stimulated the conversation because we’re going you know how much are track spikes really impacting efficiency you know over a Marathon distance totally makes sense to have these shoes because efficiency you know what actually you know what actually sparked the conversation it wasn’t that it was your

EBay stalking habits oh yeah my bad getting so we should have review out of this soon because Klein hounded on eBay wow R me out I’m going to get in trouble they to be pissed yes so my eBay hunting I found a pair of on the on uh 10K spikes for 60

Bucks on eBay new I like immediately pulled the trigger wed to try them I’m not supposed to do but so that’s actually what sparked all of this all right would to wrap me out we’ll find out if listens to this episode or not we’re doing it live yeah so the question

Again was hey over these distances you know there’s been a lot of changes in track spikes because now you got some you got a lot of the super Foams in them they’ve moved away from paback plates to now a lot of carbon plates things are getting stiffer higher sack kite again

With the 25 millimeter limit but how much of that is really affecting times now I I will admit I think they’ve been more comfortable right the increased cushioning there makes it a little bit easier although my CS feel just as worked to be honest with you they just

Feel a little bit more cush Cushing a little less harsh than they used to but and it’s tough because I don’t know how much of that is not being trained up to being in spikes right like I don’t know where this is showing its biggest impact

Though I think is in the 1500 yeah and it’s really interesting so if anyone wants to go do a study and go get data on this out of all of the events when I look at the large improvements and times from a massive standpoint the one event

That doesn’t seem to be touched very much is the 800 yeah that’s fair I feel like the standards to get into ncas the standards to get into usas who’s winning at what times and qualifying for World those times have stayed relatively consistent right somewhere between 143 and 145

That’s always been the case right the uh I would also argue for the 1500 that we you know maybe so we’ve seen some pretty awesome indoor times but overall yes getting closer closer but nobody’s has somebody did I miss that somebody ran that beat hiil goues well that no but again gou is

Gonna run what gouge runs I think regardless of what’s on his foot like I think those are the outliers but I think when you look at the masses it’s like you look at University of Washington has eight sub4 MERS you look at like the just the sheer

Amount I forgot I had the count on this like a while ago but that Boston meet had like 40 something sub four miles insane you know that used to be special when I was in college that was special that wasn’t that long ago you know what

I mean now feel like dude you haven’t broken four like what’s wrong with you yeah like it’d be like oh yeah what you I don’t know 40 something oh you’re slow then like yeah it’s just like it’s just crazy how many people are running somewhere in that high 330 1500 range

Right or low 340 range you know or but can we attribute that all to the dev Z can we I think a lot of it’s training I think a lot of it is programs a lot of them come from the same programs right there’s a lot more meets that facilitate

This where it’s like oh you go there to run the 1500 or you go there like Brian clay outdoor 1500 all day you can be in heat six and run a fantastic 1500 and then it’s like Boston obviously for the indoor mile but so I do think there’s

Other factors at play here but I feel like these ult responsive shoes it’s like you’re the 1500’s a weird event where there’s it’s just long enough to where fatigue can still kind of play a factor and mental fatigue and intensiveness and how you are within the

Race I feel like the 800 is at that dividing point where it’s like if your body gives it gives you know you go and run a 50 point first lap and then hang on for dear life the second lap I don’t know if it matters quite as much and I

Think that’s showing you know what I mean like on the spikes like your your body’s gas like you’re literally maxing out you’re just shy of maxing out from the gun so you think that that this makes a larger effect on the 1500 and 5K

But 8 800 is like is kind of the gate where below that it’s not any additional cushioning or things like that may not it’s probably not going to matter yeah and then to again to look at this again like look at the 400 times have the 400 times change that

Much well I mean to be fair devil’s advocate here like the margin of eror the margin of like change you’re going to see exact it’s going to be smaller but how many you what’s her name uh fem uh Fe yeah who just broke her own uh

Indoor oh my goodness I I feel like fem kol again though outlier I think she’s gonna go run 49 regardless got it like that’s what I like you look at someone like Sydney mcclaflin she was around before some of the and she’s young but she was around before some of these

Advancements in Foams yeah and granted she did run faster but I think she was also getting faster she was so young like it’s so hard to delineate that right but looking at someone who’s older let’s say Delila Muhammad in the same event like her improvements were also

Small and marginal so it’s like I don’t know it’s it’s so hard to say right like but I I can’t help but feel like the 1500 I don’t know why like I feel like the impacts are larger there yeah and why do you say that I think it’s

Because I think it’s a short enough distance to where no matter what you’re going to pick spikes right you’re you’re pumping into the ground pretty hard running a 1500 but those Spikes have seen some significant changes over the years like even the 15 like an like the

Nike um oh my gosh the different colored pair why am I forgetting what the name of this bike is the ones the victory yeah sorry um1 3.2 we all ran those there was nothing there there was like a little paback played and that was it that was

The only thing between your foot and the ground and now we have all the dragonly the victory all these shoes have as much possible zoomx or uh Light Strike Pro or power run HD they all have the max amount there but yeah they has that made a big

Difference I think it has I think it has I mean I think there’s like I don’t know what else to attribute having 80 something guys run under a mark like like when it’s not special anymore you know people stop counting it like there used to be like a counter

Of how many and they’re like I don’t I give up can’t we don’t count that high anymore yeah University of Washington was it like how many sub4 miles could be at the DC right and it was like that was a list and it was under 100 so if I

Remember correctly when I was running and it was like now in a single year you’re going to have not counting Pros you’re going to have yeah you’re going to have 60 plus in the same year if not like closer to 80 and like including Pros you’re well over a 100 so

It’s I don’t know yeah going to stimulus stuff so we just talked about this with the Super Shoes when it comes to Super spikes do you think some of those Concepts that we talked about also apply going hey you know what makes you more economical you’re going to need to push

Hard to get the same stimulus do you think that also applies because these shoes are same boms but it’s technically a different design I think it’s okay that’s a great question because I think it is so much easier to hit race stimulus when you’re working towards a 1500 as

Well so much right if you’re racing at sub 60 per lap you got to run sub 60 per lap right like and that’s not going slow if you’ve ever run a 400 like a sub4 mile is very special it still is to me even though we just said that like everyone’s doing

It but you still have to go run like if you look at go to your local 800 like go to your local high school meet and go look at how many guys run under two minutes in the 800 it’s not that many it still isn’t and it’s like as you get older

Like you got to run under that twom minute Mark twice go to a college meet like yes there’s going to be a lot of guys running under two flat like they’re in college like now they’re a little bit older they have more competitive experience but then again like they got

To double that the amount of like 157 to two flat guys you see is relatively high but those guys are running more like 410 to 415 when it actually translates over to the 15 so it’s like I think even though the 800 times aren’t seeing these giant jumps let’s say you take your

Three I don’t know uh 338 to 341 1500 or your 356 to four flat miler they’re not running 146 or 147 you know what I mean like like the Gap and these margins are so small right but like they’re still running I don’t know they’re usually probably 152 guys 151

Guys like and then if you look at the guys that are running even faster like they’re the 800’s not shifting is that’s what I’m getting at yeah is like you’re looking at these 350 MERS and you look at someone like Cole Hawker did he run he ran 146 I think that’s actually

Really good but I’m thinking like centrowitz ran what did he run 148 147 something like that no idea but the guy can run 350 yeah you know and so I I feel like when you start seeing these advancements like and oh that’s unfair too did he run that before

Dragonflies I I know I gotta history fact check my own self on that but I just I just just feel like the masses like I’m not seeing shifts in the shorter event but I’m seeing for the same people and you’re seeing these massive jumps in the other and I think

It’s easy to do 800 1500 work and be a middle distance athlete and see big improvements in the 1500 and not see it as much in the 800 and maybe that means the 800 people have to train more like 400 people I don’t know it worked for

Donovan braser I don’t know if it but obviously he’s had plenty of injury issues himself and things like that so I don’t know where the point is on that this is all again I’m speaking out of my butt here but I’m going to take this to the to the recreational Runner because I

Feel like the average marathon time is still increasing and part of that the major thing is more people are participating in just than ever before which is awesome like people are active they’re doing marath which is awesome right this is more accessible they have shoes that facilitates it’s more

Accessible so I don’t think everyone overall is getting faster just like I said I think the shoes increase your capacity to do things right you can do stuff for like hold a pace for longer and I think you’re right that over the 800 especially even if you add some of

These Foams and these designs to like the the spikes I think you’re right some of the shorter distance it’s not going to matter as much and I will even say anecdotally from looking at some data of some of the individual like people running Road 5Ks like your average Road

5K I don’t think the times are that much faster kind of the the winning times typically in the average place is still in your 17 18 minute unless you’re in a faster area you get that one 15 minute you know high school or college guy or maybe post Collegiate guy occasionally

And then if you go to like a race with prize money or real stuff you might see a 13 or 14 minute right us Road Championship but a lot of the times I think are quite similar because again these shoes I’m gonna say it again increase your capacity to do things for longer

They don’t necessarily make you faster and I think if you understand that hopefully help helps you figure out training wise if you really want to get faster you have to train to be faster right and that might mean either you got to run harder with these Super Shoes or

Maybe you do some workouts without them and that might give you a bigger stimulus I don’t know each person’s gonna be really different like I’m yeah training harder than I ever I mean not including Marathon stuff when I was doing with my wife I’m training harder

Than I ever have and it’s I don’t know how much stimulus I’m getting I’m just doing it cuz I want I need to test shoes I need to get miles and I like running fast so I can do a double threshold is it because I’m training no I just want

To see what happens uh but I would never be able to do that I wish I was as bulletproof as you man this D can take a hit like I do dumb stuff just because and I would have never been able to do this uh in in traditional Flats you know

I I dabbled in some of the stuff in my but I never would have able to do that stuff I was beat up for days whereas I can do this now in these shoes it’s not me I’m not definitely not better but you know how that impacts me long term we’ll

See I don’t know I have no idea and more people are talking about double thresholds so yeah I think I was kind of getting at that with the 1500 and I never like fully established that point yeah was that that’s just long enough for some of those fatigue resistant type

Properties unless used to kick in yeah where like okay you can hold that 59 for one more lap longer than you probably could have before and that’s the difference between 3 4 seconds on a race depending how hard you’re kicking you know if that 59 would have been a 62 or

Something like that and I don’t know again um yeah but it’s it’s hard to look at those results and be like why are so many people running faster it’s not it’d be one thing if it was like okay so the NCA Regional standard shifted three seconds yeah you know and it’s like okay

Well three seconds is a lot but that’s you know I don’t know it’s kind of reasonable but at the same time it’s like people are just running stupidly fast like when I was in school if you ran like 140 it’s like oh you got a chance at making a regional it’s like

Now it’s like for like you got to run like 1340 yeah and you’re still a bubble guy 5K yeah yeah like that is insane like I I mean this is anecdotal from what I’ve kind of watched but like when we were in college would you have ever thought about doing double workout days

Was that like ever thing uh I don’t know if I would have been opposed to it I I did did you do that or did you know about anybody really doing that not really we we kind of not no like maybe we had like a short threshold

Thing like in the morning and then maybe some like Sprint work in the afternoon but not like true volumous workouts yeah yeah like there wasn’t anything never no and I I I’m seeing that as I kind of just geek out and like look at the training of some of the Collegiate

Athletes they’re doing stuff like that and part of it is yeah when they’re on the they’re using Super Shoes on the road so they can do a hard workout in the morning and then they can go do a track insane track workout in the afternoon and you’re Collegiate athlet

So I think some programs are definitely maximizing their the capacity with which these athletes are doing how good that is longterm I don’t know whether they’re going to burn out or not or what have you or whether they’re just getting better volume of athletes who have this incredible potential and not every

Person’s going to be able to do that so it’s a very strong blanket statement but I think that’s the same we’re talking about capacity ability to do work getting that stimulus right and if you can get more stimulus and recover then you can adapt more right but to do that you actually

Have to push into that limit still you have to put the work in yeah and so we’re just in a weird gray area right now where I think training volume and intensity is just like we’re just hitting Uncharted Territory I don’t know we don’t know yeah and people are

Playing around and we’re getting some fun results and we’re seeing f times and it’s great and I love it I’m just trying to figure out the why behind it so that’s that’s like my ramble for the last you know hour here but that’s okay yeah my last is just wondering like hey

Like with the capacity we’re pushing into like you know I think some people are really maximizing and going all in and we’ve got some really cool understanding of how sleep and nutrition really impacts this notice I didn’t say anything about F rollers or all that stuff that that could be some nice ad

Because it makes you feel better but like sleep is being our SLE sleep understanding is better our nutrition is so much better understood how we’re recovering like people are getting better plus you add these things for the incredible ability to do work I think is

Great just again for the rest of us who aren’t Elite Collegiate or Elite athletes ask yourself you know you know how am I getting the best stimulus out of this how do I try to figure out how to get better performance is your goal if your performance is not

Your goal you just want to run like go for it you know somebody com there’s nothing wrong with that I feel like this whole episode we’ve been talking performance related we are geeking out all day I’ll believe yeah you want to go out and have fun and enjoy your run and

Have a great time by all means go do that please go do that GO train in superoes all the time we get it we’re not picking on you at all we get it but when it comes to like allout performance right that’s that’s where we’re going hey what what’s going on why we’re

Seeing plateaus some places we’re seeing inan performance other places what does that mean so you let us know again comment yes because could also get win a $100 Runner rning Warehouse uh gift card but also comment because we’re just curious to know what you think we are

We’re talking and we we’re thinking and we want you to follow us along with that so please comment below let us know what you think about this conversation be it about the spikes be about the effects of Super Shoes how that’s working for you if you are someone that’s running in in

In the super spikes like what do you think do you think it’s improving economy and then for everyone else you know David’s you know in that Elite level I’m not right so like I don’t know if I go that far you are now so like these days looking at that word that’s

Uh I know too much pressure it’s fine um compared to me and the rest of us right so it’s like what do you think the long-term impacts of some of these shoes and I don’t think it’s that a big of a deal anymore because like we said earlier we talked about this before

Trainers are becoming Super Shoes that’s just how it is just curious to go hey as the as shoes increase our capacity what do we need to do about it so we comment let us know your thoughts we always really we do read them if we don’t

Respond to all of them because a lot of people comment but thanks as always for listening and especially listening to us geek out we totally didn’t do the episode we plan to which we’ll just do that next week so we’ll just do it another time yeah yeah F thanks for

Follow along and letting us geek out