🎙️Following On Podcast – How Does Bazball Evolve After India Defeat?

Neil Manthorp is joined by the former England fast bowler Steve Harmison to look back on England’s 4-1 series defeat to India, and discuss how this Test side move forward ahead of home games against the West Indies and Sri Lanka.

They hear exclusively from the England Head Coach Brendon McCullum, and they’re also joined by the Daily Mail’s Lawrence Booth. talkSPORT’s Cricket Editor Jon Norman joins the show to reflect on New Zealand’s 2-0 series defeat to Australia, and what now for Tim Southee as Test captain. England Internationals Chris Woakes and Tammy Beaumont also join the show to reflect on International Women’s Day.

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You’re listening to following on here on talk sport 2 with me Neil manop along with former England fast baller Steve harson as always so the dust has settled on England’s 4-1 series defeat in India or has it is it still swirling we’ll hear the thoughts of head coach Brenda

McCullum uh who suggested that they do need to adjust as a team going forward we’ll also look ahead to the start of the English summer with wisdon Almanac editor Lawrence booth and uh debate how basball evolves going forward talk sports Cricket editor Tom Norman is also

Set to join us to reflect on New Zealand’s disappointing 2-n series defeat to Australia and we’ll hear from black caps bad Daryl Mitchell and we’re also hear exclusively from England Internationals Chris works and Tammy bourmont of several counties bid to host a professional women’s side from 2025

And as always we’ll bring you the final words so there really is plenty to get on on with this week this is following on well um the wounds have been licked and uh I suppose the the defeat the series defeat will continue to be picked

Over um hary we’ll hear in a moment from Brandon McCullum and Ben Stokes uh but um do you think that there were enough opportunities missed to say that um England didn’t didn’t take their chances or were India really uh 4-1 better than England I think India were 4-1 better better than

England um but I think both in that question I think both answers I think you could say England were were possibly guilty of if england had took their chances would the would 4-1 being the end result possibly not because there was times especially in that I think it

Was the third and the fourth test match where you’ll be believed you know what if england do play a little bit smarter here they they can put pressure back on India I think what India were very good at and I’ve seen the video of R D’s

Speech in the him at the end is when India got in front they were ruthless and I’m not sure you could say that about England and I think that’s where I think M Colman Stokes really need to to look at the game plans going forward you know if anybody thinks that this baz

Ball for one of a better word is needs to be readdressed ripped up started again is nonsense you know this is the best mentality this is the best look and this is the best way we should be playing our cricket and going forward I just think at times you Juran the ashes

It has I think some of the the Worden and some of the rhetoric that’s been talked about has I think hampered some of the mindset of the players the one thing I will say is I do they have to have a look at Personnel going forward

Keep the game plan but boy they might have to start making some tough calls on players going forward yes there has been an element of of class of as a cozy club I’m not I don’t buy that what I buy is the fact that they’re giving people a

Chance to express themselves the best way and giving them a chance to make mistakes but we we we’re nearly two years in now and I think some players are playing some players are making the mistakes more often than they than they’re not and I think they’ve met it

Far too many times for my liking to under for them for me to think whether they’re using the the baz ball as a as a crutch to say oh well that’s just the way we play that needs to be readdressed that that needs to be readdressed big time and quickly

Because the way that we out the Outlook that we’ve got of the game the positive mentality that we think about the game are of forceful where we try and push onto the opposition I think is brilliant I just think in times I think we we have

To look we 100 for one you know Joe root reversing there you ashes when Nathan lion walks off at 180 for one down to 10 men our ashin misses two days of a game all these things are keep coming back and back and back and I think because of

That I think that’s why England are in the were in the position they were in they did make silly mistakes they did give chances aw when they were in the ascendency and the one thing that India did they didn’t give India England a sniff when England when India were ahead

In apart from the first test and that’s why I think it ended at 4-1 yeah the turning point for me was uh after two days or the third morning of the third test and I’ll never forget England 27.2 uh just 230 behind they’ve got uh B

Duck on 130 and andat they did on the third morning was a massive disappointment nothing wrong with the B approach I just think that as many people have observed they need to be more selective when they fly but let’s hear from BR mcum first then hary obviously disappointed you know we came

Here with high hopes and felt that we had really progressed as a team and and uh on this occasion we’ve got to acknowledge that we’ve got a bit of work to do moving forward and and I think as long as we’re prepared to put our hands

Up and say that we need to to adjust uh some of those things never throw away what we’ve done to this point because you know that’s the conviction and the methods that we’ve got but you need to also keep improving you mentioned adjustments there what type of

Adjustments and how do you see this team evolving going into the summer yeah look I’m not going to I’m not going to proi too far forward obviously we’ve all got some thinking to do I think the method that we’re try and operate within the environment is something that the guys enjoy the way

That the the skipper and I have very clear vision of where we want to get this team to we’ve just got to make sure that that during the next couple of months when there some time for self-reflection amongst the playing group but also you know amongst myself

And and the skipper too about what we need moving forward it will give us our best opportunity but look you know we do have to put our hand up and say that it hasn’t been the tour that we wanted it to be but the same stage I do believe

There’s some positives to glean from it that was England coach BR mum speaking to am man and India Cameron ponon be I’ll never forget when England lost by an Innings to South Africa um and they would criticized for going way too hard and McCullum said we didn’t go hard

Enough which took everybody by surprise that I don’t know whether you agree with me but that sounded like the first time I’ve heard him I don’t know took a step back but certainly took a couple of steps sideways first time yeah sideways but I think he’s I think he’s also

Realistic everything I’ve heard and this is the first time we’ve had comment because the test match finished we we got Bender McCullum but we can’t play it out we had a little bit of Ben STS that we you know we didn’t have after the back end of the the Test match and I

Think reacting off the back of what Ben and Brendan have said was realistic I think they’ve been as realistic as as they can be about what’s happened for1 defeat yes they weren’t good enough yet in weren’t good enough yes you know they could have they could have done things a

Lot smarter India with a better team all that was was relevant the one thing I will say coming off the back of what McCullum and Stokes have said I think the change is coming because I think what I’ve just said before I think the same people are making the

Same mistakes and that you can put up with to a certain point but then the realization is well this is the method this is the game plan this is how we play if these players can’t adjust in in that to be smarter and play better and identify situations then are these the players

For us going forward and how long do we last how long do these players last and I think that’s something Reading between the lines I think what McCullum is saying there I think he’s I think he’s saying you know we’ve we we we are potentially making the same mistakes and

That worries me a little bit going forward you know 18 months out from from an Asha series especially when B and Brendan have put so much faith and a lot to be fair all the eggs in one basket with about 14 men and I think what the

Mes just realized in this tour under pressure are these the ones that are going forward do we might have to make a little bit of a tweak in a change watch this space well yeah um look one man who wasn’t taking any backward steps or in

Fact even sideways steps is uh was was Ben Stokes he admitted that his team team were outplayed but uh well let’s hear what he said to he was speaking to Cameron ponon b for us this this series isn’t going to and shouldn’t affect anything that we’ve managed to achieve

Before this tour you know it’s the first time you know in particular these last four games where this team’s been you know dominated pretty much the the whole time throughout a series The look we we will use this as inspiration to become a better team we will use this as

Inspiration become better players and that’s the mentality that we have um you know this this media named basball is is everyone is saying what is it what is it my opinion it’s a mentality you’ve always wanted him to get better so you know in the face of of defeat and

Failure baz ball will hopefully inspire people to become better players and Inspire this team to become even better than what we are there you go still very much a baz baller although he does use the word with a with a sneer is doesn’t obviously enjoy the term but uh he he

Uses it um because everybody else does and he said uh that he hopes it will continue to inspire people but they’ve lost seven out of the last 12 test matches and that that’s not inspirational to anybody no it’s not inspirational to anybody but the way

That you are you are asked a player you know the freedom that you’re given to express yourself the where that you are tread as adults and in from a human point of view when you into the dressing room the onus is on you to you know to

Be the best player if you possibly can be it’s your career so you enjoy being the the you know the best version of yourself coming into an environment which is which is given which is everything’s given to you going into it and we’re giving you the best chance

Possibly to play with freedom take the opposition on and one or two I think are fallen short of that and I think one or two are using the this is the best this is this is this is just just the way we play I think they’re taking that too far now as

A as a little bit of a crutch and I think Ben’s I think Ben’s possibly realized that you know this team I I hope he’s realized that you know this team has to be tougher this team has to be smarter and this team has to identify situations where Under Pressure we could

Play better not more defensive not yeah and if if it means going harder go harder but play the situation a lot better which I think does as a as an individual and I think over the course of this time he’s been in charge hopefully he’s identified that when

Times are good in England you know when things are going well for us but sometimes you learn a hell of a lot when you get beat you hell of a lot about individuals when you get beat and I hope that McCullum and Stokes have learned a

Lot about the makeup of the group he’s got and if it is the same group going forward yeah so be it hopefully they’ve learned but if it’s not um I wouldn’t be surprised well I’m paraphrasing but you basically said on a show at the beginning of January that England will

Go to India they’ll lose 4-1 and then they’ll come back and beat West Indies and Sri Lanka 3-0 3-0 they win six out of six and suddenly it won’t matter in India so we’ll come on to that point that’s basically what you said beginning of January we’ll do we’ll do that in the

Next we’ll do that in the next section you’re listening to following on here on talk sport 2 with me Neil Manor along with former England fast bowler Steve homson and next up we’ll hear more from England head coach brend McCullum and we’ll chat about what changes England

Might or should or could make to their test side ahead of that summer you’re listening to following on here on talk sport 2 with me Neil manth along with double as’s winner Steve harson and a reminder you can now also watch us on YouTube If you so desire

Just head over to the talk sport cricket YouTube channel and uh subscribe uh right before we have a chat to Lawrence Booth as promised at the the top of the program let’s hear it a little bit more from England’s test coach Brandon McCullum we can all acknowledge that

There’s a big Series in a couple years time but respectfully we’ll certainly be putting our attention on what’s in front of us and obviously for us that’s Western East to start the summer then Sri Lanka and then we obviously roll on to Pakistan New Zealand India at home

And then and then Ash’s way so there’s there’s enough there for us to be able to suggest that there’s some time to be able to get some some Cricket into some people that we think um are going to going to give us our most amount of

Options in in those big series look know we’ve got it’s a it’s a fine fine balance um but you know we’ll still be looking to ensure that we we pick the best team that we possibly can in any given situation whilst also looking to try and get some Cricket into could you

Shed some light on the on the Wicket keeping situation obviously Johnny Bera was the wick Keeper at Home Folks come in kept very well as in kind of the specialist subcontinent conditions does B Remain the man in possession the summer or was it the case that folks was

Told this could be yours to continue with uh look we haven’t had any of those conversations yet I think we got a couple months to to sort of work things out I think folks has kept brilliantly here in uh here in India and and obviously you know Johnny had a decent

Series with the bat and uh and the ashes as well so you know there’s there’s good options and we just got to make sure that from our point of view we we make the decision which we feel is gives us the most amount of Weaponry to be able

To ensure that that uh that we we’re able to go toe-to-toe with the best teams in the world and um I thought folks did a good job with the gloves and and Jo obviously had 100 tests under his belt as well and we’ll we work at things

Down the line plenty of decisions for Brenda McCullum and um the management team I suppose um to make uh Lawrence Booth um well-known longstanding now I can say wizd Almanac editor and writer for the mail joins us Lawrence um there are so much to discuss with you and so

Many questions to ask I’m gonna let hary do most of them but I’ll start with the obvious one as the co-author along with Nick Hol of a brilliant book um about basball um and about um its culture and how it’s changed uh test Cricket or how how it did um in its

First 18 months um have you been the subject of a few snarky comments from people saying huh what have you got to say for yourself now yeah just a few um especially as a serious progressed and and especially from from Indian fans funny enough who I think there’s this

Sort of slight misconception that because we’d written a book on basball we expected England to win every test match that they’ somehow cracked cricket and found a a fair safe method I mean the argument the argument that we put forward in the book really was that it

Had freed them up Brendon MCC and Ben Stokes had freed up the the players to play a more aggressive entertaining brand of cricket which was giving them a better chance of Victory I mean I think the concern always going to India was that the the Gap in class would be too

Great for even a kind of positive mental attitude to overcome you know we had the near Miracle of England’s win in the first test at hydrabad and everyone said here we go this is basball in exelis if you like this is this is what it’s all about and then England got themselves

Into positions in each of the next four games actually uh but they weren’t good enough to capitalize India were too good to to let them capitalize um that doesn’t mean Bas ball’s dead or they’re going to stop playing basball it just means that they came up against

Opposition who were too good for them no matter what approach they took and Lawrence in a couple of years are you going to be are you going to be following up with this book with a a second edition with smarter basball or you the more refined version of of

England going forward because I think that’s what England need to do over the next I think few a few months few weeks and leading into the ashes in a couple of years and there’s some decisions to be made when you when you wrote that book did you foresee some of the

Mistakes that are were made on that Indian tour being made by the same people at the same time under the same pressure It’s Tricky I mean there were signs against Australia weren’t there especially in the second test at Lords when there was that half hour 45 minutes

Of of hook happy dismissals and people really first started to question the approach you know where they were they sort of was this lack of responsibility that some have sensed around the basball ethos was that coming home to roost I spoke to you didn’t I before the the

Headingly test and you said England could still win 3-2 and you you came quite close to actually um I think that you know what happened in India was they because India the the Gap was so big between the two teams England felt obliged at times to be overly aggressive

They they tried to catch I mean Jo Joe Root’s little reverse ramp at um at Raj cot was the classic wasn’t it where everyone said that was the moment that cost England but that shot had had had given him lots of runs for for almost no dismissals previously in his Bas bow

Career he he was averaging more as a basb bat man with a strike rate that was 20 higher you know people tend to zoom in on the isolated moments that don’t work rather than look at the bigger picture so look but to go back to your question there are there are decisions

To be made for sure Johnny Barstow cropped up in the interview there Brendan McCullum he’s he’s an issue the bowlers how do how many The Spinners feature in the in the years ahead so there are lots of questions do they have to play smar as sh you know basball

Isn’t isn’t a solution to test Cricket it’s not a finished product it’s an attempt to free up the players and make them play uh a more entertaining um productive brand of cricket but they can improve for sure absolutely and lawr on the the way keeper situation on the bestto stuff

This team has been very loyal Stokes and McCullum have have kept Faith even even out in India with 14 players in the in the five test matches do you foresee in the future that they’ll stick with being loyal or do you think the mistakes that have been made England might go and make

Not household changes but two or three changes where they go well instead of folks all be though we’ll leave them both out and we’ll bring in a Robinson A Smith or a you know jimy Smith from you know Sur OE Robinson from Durham and James Ru probably the three names on the

Tip of my tongue who potentially from Somerset who potentially could take over that number seven spot and take the glovs yeah absolutely I mean when Harry Brooke comes back and and look England missed him massively in India don’t forget that um when Brooke comes back

One of besto folks will have to go but as you say both go because I I think Ole Robinson not not the fast bowler but the wicked keeper but Durham who’s been playing basball Cricket for definitely last season and scored a couple of counter-attacking 80s for the England

Lions against India a recently um I I think he he he could be a natural selection I I think folks you know there was a lot of debate last summer wasn’t there in the ashes should it be folks or should it be Baro because the F the folks Ultras got annoyed when Baro

Dropped a catch they went a bit more quiet when Baro Hammer that 99 at Old Trafford you know it went backwards and forwards but neither made a great case for themselves in in India besto kept getting into 20s and 30s I think seven of his 10 innings were 20 or 30 he

Didn’t get to 40 and that’s not what you want from a guy playing up up to 100 test matches and folks kept brilliantly I no one talked about the Wicket keeping which was a sign of how well he kept actually um but he his strike rate was

Was under 40 and you can say it’s not all about strike rate but there was that game where he I think he scored a single and over for 12 overs trying to protect the tail and England went absolutely nowhere and that is not the kind of cricket that the Cullman Stokes want so

They could both be out it could be Brooke and Robinson uh in the first test against West Indies um Lawrence just on the the ethos of of the new approach the new regime the demystification of Chess Cricket I mean its status as the ultimate form of the game some players have found inhibit

In inhibiting and intimidating and um and that’s why M and Stokes talk so much about having fun removing the fear of failure and you know commentators like me saying well you just don’t do that in a test match you don’t do that on the first morning of a test match you just

Don’t treat test matches like that um but I’ve actually I’ve loved the fact that they talk about making memories and playing with this um freedom but it’s it’s quite a hard sell when you lose seven out of 12 isn’t it yeah it and I think people this is where

People just have to step back and look at the bigger picture they you know s out of 12 includes um two against an extremely strong Australian side who had it not reigned at Manchester would have become only the second team in test history to lose after being two n up that would have

Been a great comeback by England I mean I prefer to focus on the fact that England fought back brilliantly in that series I mean previous England teams have been two- nil down against Australia would have lost four or 5 nil but McCullum McCullum said after they

Went two nil down at Lords 3-2 has a nice ring to it there outrageous stuff really that we’re not used to hearing from England coaches and he he almost got it right and losing in India everyone loses in India that’s not news no team has won in India for over a

Decade so the fact that England got themselves into a shout in each game to me someone who’s followed England for for years was progress um they lost 3-1 in India last time when okay they they got a good win in the first test and rout batted like a gold and India

Slaughtered them after that they lost 4-0 in the previous series they didn’t get close in any game r got had a better of the draw that was it this game that you could see India were a bit spooked you know Ben Ducket got his 150 in the second test rout batted beautifully they

Had first Innings lead in the third test I think third or fourth there were moments there were India India had to play out of their skins um to to hammer them so look I’m looking at the overall picture I’m thinking since England since Stokes and mcum came together they’ve

Won 14 and lost eight uh they’ve drawn one and that one probably been a victory had it not reigned one of the defeats was by one run one of the defeats was by two wickets prior to that they’d won one out of 17 they’ve scored a run quicker than

Any other team in test Cricket only India and Australia have a better win loss ratio in that time we’ve got to look at the bigger picture here you know India and Australia are damn good sides um and England are playing with look at the Spin Attack they took to India I

Mean that was kindergarten stuff wasn’t it really once leech got injured you’re looking at show of Basher who’s got 10 wickets at 60 goodness sake gets picked and and and B’s F takes two fers looks like a guy for the future heartley ends up with only Ravi ashon takes more

Wickets than him in the series and he goes for fewer runs and over than both ashin and Jer and the these are ludicrous things that would never have happened under a previous regime so look I hear the results they’re not great they are not but I will not I I will not

Be convinced by anyone who says that it’s the same old England because it certainly is not yeah I agree with that I 100% agree with that and I keep on saying that you know the little bit of refin a little bit of smartness play better on the tougher conditions and

Does that Lawrence give you the the confidence because you know we we talked about the results you know against Australia then against India in the next 18 months we’ve got them again but the opposite way around we go to Australia we we’re playing India at home in five

Test matches each time do you feel as though this m you know the McCullum and Stokes over the next probably six to eight months with the summer because the summer series will be an interesting one because they’re playing against nobody really did they then you know reaffirm

Their where they’re playing but also try and make some you know little tiners to make sure that when they go to Australia when they come when you come here we are in a much better mental place or you know situation place when it comes to the tougher moments in the game yeah I

Think they they have to get better at looking at those moments I mean India grabbed all the big moments didn’t they after hydrabad um look England I I don’t quite buy the the fact that IND England have got no one before those two I mean this winter they’re going to Pakistan

And New Zealand I don’t expect them to repeat the 3-0 that was in Pakistan that was quite a freakishly good result for England and that that had never no team had ever done that before um and New Zealand are tough I mean they probably should have won that test against

Australia overnight in Christ Church and that would have kept their unbeaten run at home for seven years you know England found out last time how tough they are so those two are going to be tough series they should beat West Indies and Sri Lanka at home I think they’ll beat

IND at home next summer um just because India are a different a different side on seeming tracks um and then the the key England’s only hope of getting any kind of result in Australia in a couple of winters time is to keep playing basball they’ve got to stick to it that

That is absolutely their only hope and Australia would have been slightly spooked by what happened last summer they deny it completely they bang on about the ball change at the oval they ignore the fact it rained at Manchester they got they they ignore the fact they were a bit lucky at edgebaston let’s

Face it they they were they needed 55 to win with two wickets left which is a situation from which you generally lose a match they outplayed England at Lords um but no one would have complained if england had won that Series so I think Australia England have got to keep going

At it and that’s why Stokes and mccan they sound stubborn sometimes um they and people think they they’re not learning they’re they are taking everything and they’re smart guys and they want def don’t I don’t buy this stuff about they just want to entertain

That is a it’s not a smoke screen but it is a it’s an attempt to free the players up from the burden of success and failure and uh they will be doing everything they can to be playing this brand of cricket uh by the time they go

To Australia in less than two years time Lawrence it’s been such a pleasure wish we could get you on more often but congratulations on another edition of The Almanac we’ll no doubt have you on when you’re doing your media rounds once it hits the bookshelves and we’ll have

Our five minutes of your 14 hours of media that you thank you thank you for your time cheers Lawrence thanks cheers Tommy you’re listening to following on here on talk sport to with me Neil manob along with former England fast baller Steve harson and if you have missed any of the show

And you want to catch up you can always download the podcast from The Following on feedable as always via free talks spard at or wherever you get your podcast okay um the the boss has joined us again it’s Cricket editor John Norman to chat about his very much his second

Favorite team country that he’s very close to and has spent a lot of time in New Zealand disappointing everybody again no more than themselves losing to Australia going down 2- in a series that so many uh black cap supporters had high hopes for and they really um having

Thrown away a couple of opportunities in the first test match they then had Australia 34 for four needing 281 and they lost again um Alex kry made an unbeaten 98 was absolutely brilliant there were runs as well um for Mitchell Marsh John so disappointing and you know I mean I

Think every almost everybody in England’s second favorite team is New Zealand and especially when they’re playing against Australia what what is it that I mean they haven’t won for for 35 years or something against Australia in New Zealand why why do they always under perform against the their big big

Neighbors well I mean know if I knew that then you know I probably wouldn’t be sitting here talking to you but what I do believe is that the disappointment is you know etched on your face and I’m sure the listeners can hear it in the voice it there’s obviously a

Disappointment in New Zealand as well but actually there something and it’s quite interesting how different countries cover the same sport could you imagine the reaction uh in India and I know there are geop political reasons why they would be a little bit more angst if India was to lose to Pakistan

Not they ever play each other but similarly there was a lot of anger when England lost to Australia and yet all we hear is Disappointment in New Zealand and speaking to some of the uh the journalists out there I don’t think the rage and shame that is actually felt in

That country is at all rep presented by the media that they have out there and there is a real disconnect um within the feeling in uh New Zealand which goes well beyond disappointment and what is actually described and written about uh in broadcast and on print the New Zealand

Players should be maybe not should be in another country those New Zealand players would be getting and the coaching staff would be getting absolutely slammed for that performance performance not just in Christ Church where they threw away a golden opportunity but in Wellington where they threw away about

Four that if we’d had Daniel mccard on I would have asked him Daniel what was the worst um worst bit of that first Innings or that first test defeat was it the the fact that you picked the wrong side for the second test in a row the fact that

You retired near Wagner before the series despite the fact he had a great record against Steve Smith the fact that you picked Scott Cooper line the fact that you didn’t pick Mitchell Santa or the fact that you essentially let Australia off the hook with poor bowling poor captaincy poor uh fielding

And poor batting and yet if I was to look at the uh the media in New Zealand I would I wouldn’t see any of that so why is that I wonder well um you mentioned the captaincy John I I’m thinking about that I’m thinking about it I think mostly

It’s because there aren’t any full-time Cricket media in New Zealand exactly exactly it’s not covered time is it yeah no exactly I mean but I tell you what I know you want to throw to the Tim sa the audio but I would rather you threw to the Daryl Mitchell audio all

Right because if if there was ever going to be former players or jist coming in on their long run up they certainly did when they heard what Daryl Mitchell had to say what do you think you’ll say to each other now as a name as as you depart this you know

Having Lost the series uh look for us we’ve always said as black caps we’re not defined by the outcomes we’re defined by how we play cricket and and hopefully how we Inspire our country to play the game and um we really proud of the efforts that we did throughout the

Test although we didn’t get the win that we wanted um I think if we keep tuning up and and keep playing Cricket like this with puffing our chests out and and doing it with a smile on our face and hopefully inspiring um many young kids

Here in New Zealand to play t Cricket in the future then we’re doing the right thing well that was Daryl Mitchell sounding like gon Patel maners W it you can see where Jon Patel gets it from the New Zealander who New Zealand offs being coach for England comes out and after

Eng has a shocker and talks as positively as he possibly can but John surely I know I know New Zealand Cricket has I’ve got some fantastic players but is it as simple as this is all we’ve got so you know we talk up the no there’s no real accountability because you can say

They didn’t have you know the right team or some of the you know their best players but is this what they’ve got and they’re happy with their lot and that’s why they’ll always be happy New Zealand comfortable semi-finalists beaten happy beaten finalists and does that is will

That ever ever change no they’re not H they’re not happy at all this is the point I’m making you know when I made out my made my way out to New Zealand in 2019 England were playing a test series out there before um the ashes I think

Maybe they weren’t either way it was 2019 and I was out there I’m fast losing track and I struggled to communicate the depth of the despair that New Zealand felt to after losing against England in the Cricket World Cup final they they were on the floor this was in the same

Year that they losted England in the uh in the Rugby World Cup I think England knocked them out of that as well they weren’t actually bothered about that and this is this is the problem they’re not all happy gol lucky new zealanders who have such an amazing life

Down on the farm um you know they they’re ABS they’re incandescent with rage and it’s not portrayed anywhere they’re not being represented there’s going to be I mean they do have proportional representation so maybe if they set up their own political party they’ probably get you know four or five

Seats in the uh in their their relevant Houses of Parliament so and also they do have the players Mitchell santner you know he could have played Neil Wagner could have played Glen Phillips could have bowled more than one over before lunch yesterday as well there’s so many

Decisions but at the end of the day hary as someone who has led their life through the old adage of law of averages because I’ve watched enough sport in my time to know that eventually if you keep doing the right thing something good will come of it I then look at New

Zealand’s records in cricket against Australia over the last 40 years and think hang on maybe I should have been basing all my life on the LW of averages after all right Tim Sai um has had a a really disappointing summer um with overall figures of uh four for 245 against

Australia and two for 183 in those two tests against South Africa’s SE team um and it was a surprise to many when he took over the captaincy when Kane Williamson relinquished it um and unsurprisingly uh he’s not sure how long that he’ll retain the job only been the

Job a short time um but uh but yeah this obviously disappoint like I said disappointed to finish the I guess a test block like this it’s always easier when you you you finish a block on a win and um but yeah we got an exciting

Winter a tough winter away in in um in Asia and then we come back here and we got uh got got a few tests against England so um plenty of test cricet this year for us which is which is exciting um and and we’re looking forward to that

Challenge but for now we’ll we’ll reflect as a group um and uh and and like I said look to look to move the side forward and you expected the captain for those matches uh well we’ll see obviously you go to Asia the the make of of the side changes slightly

With um with obviously spin becoming um becoming the the main the main threat in that part of the world but um but yeah we’ll we’ll see when we get there we’ll we’ll deal with this tonight um and then uh like I said look to look to move

Forward to um what’s to come later that’s Jim Sai John he said that he’s not been in the job long and he hasn’t and it doesn’t sound like he’ll be in it much longer um but there’s a number of New Zealand players in their 30s aren’t

There um and they’ve been very good at transitioning and and um rebuilding the side um but I I think they’ve got they’re going to have to have quite a few younger newer pressure faces coming in aren’t they yeah for sure I think if there was something to take away from

This series and the one that preceded it was the fact that you know a rook looks like he’s got something about him Sears looks like he’s got something about him um you still got a couple of years left from Henry hopefully Jameson has still got a few years but his injury problems

Are obviously you know well documented uh so the bowling looks in a decent place I mean they’ve got to keep hold of them once they got them what a difference Trent Bol would have made the fact that we’re not even talking about him anymore um says plenty because we

Certainly were this time last year when England were in town so that’s the end of T Tren Bolt’s test career the bad thing Conway still to come back um leam I think has still got a few years Williamson too um and darl Mitchell as well as of course Glenn Phillips coming

Through so they’ve got the Bedrock of a team I think the point that was made in some of the press was that you know New Zealand aren’t scheduled to play Australia in tests again of course they will but the schedule only goes up to 2027 so at least three or four years at

Home they do go to Australia at the end of 2627 hopefully that series goes a little bit better than the last time New Zealand went there but you know will you know what players will still be there for them we should just wait and see but this was a huge opportunity for New

Zealand huge because this is not a stellar Australia side it’s a little bit of a knacked Australia side they played a lot of test Cricket it’s an Australia side without a settle batting lineup and at the end of the day New Zealand had an opportunity and they absolutely blew it

Final word hary um do you think New Zealand have finally got over the oh but didn’t they do well for a small country syndrome I think they’re trying didn’t sound like that from Daryl Mitchell but they’re trying um and where the next leader is I think that then where I was going to

Start to John their next Captain has to make them like Ben Stokes has to make them this you know machine which is um get over that that sort of Happy New Zealand tag I think that next leader is important you know Saudi and Williamson have come from the McCullum now they

Need somebody I think to stand there with a little bit more steal and determination hard man hary saying they need a hard man who’s the hard man is it come where is it Lam’s already been is Le leam gone to it do they go all the

Way and go well let’s put revender in charge and say all right it’s yours for the next five to five to 10 years better he probably will lose a lot of crickets through franchise stuff you know is there a captain out there that can really grab a hold of this team and say

Right we’re going this direction this is hard knows hard first and this is how we’re going to play our cricket and we’re going to take everybody on well if they picked Mitchell santner he already leads in white ball Cricket at times doesn’t he so maybe he would have

Especially with the amount of cricket being going to be played in in Asia but yeah it’s a good point hary I’m not sure that there is an obvious leader there across all three formats but specifically uh in the test Arena um I think they probably maybe have to look at the coach as

Well might have to get you back next week and uh resume this uh hopefully John I’ll be back next week for uh another special feature you’ve been listening to following on with me Neil manthorp as alongside as always a former number one bowler in the world Steve

Harmeson uh next up in part four we’ll round up the week’s other big stories or the ones that have caught our attention and we’ll uh obviously also hear that chat with England Internationals Tammy Bowmont and Chris wokes you’re listening to following on here on talk sport to with me Neil manop

Alongside darham Hall of Famer Steve harson and a reminder you can now watch us on YouTube just head over to the talk sport cricket YouTube channel And subscribe now last Friday marked the international women’s day and to celebrate that talk sports Scott Taylor spoke with England Internationals Tammy

Burmont and Chris Wes to discuss the importance of the day and the rise of women’s Cricket Tammy Chris thanks for joining us we’re here on International women’s day of course Tammy we’ll start with you just how important is this day for you yeah I think it’s massive I think um

Actually a few years ago I kind of struggled to see essentially the importance of it but actually um the more you kind of realize how important it is and and kind of how far potentially women have got to go to to gain equality actually it’s massive to

Have a day of of recognition and also you know look at how far how far we’ve come particularly in a sporting context I think um getting that day to kind of reflect on on the journey that you’ve kind of been on um but also kind of keep

Seeing what what’s next to to really yeah and Chris as a as a father of two girls yourself how important is it that them growing up now they have that visibility to be the next Tammy Bowmont for example yeah absolutely I think you hit that on the head really the fact that

They’ve got that you know you’ve got something to look look towards and and Inspire to um you know Tammy obviously is a key figure in that um you know the girls and the women’s team have done some fantastic things over the the recent years um not just to promote the

Game but to obviously you know to to perform the way they have as well uh within their International game has been fantastic so yeah as you touch on yeah to be the father of two girls it’d be you know I’d be delighted if they were

To take up the game um you know it’ be a you know really s proud proud moment for me but obviously at the same time um the girls are doing a fantastic job at the minute to to make sure the game’s in the in the best place possible for

For these younger girls growing up to to hopefully come into the game and tamy we’re speaking with with Chris who who’s a current men’s international cricketer how important is it to have someone like Chris’s profile publicly supporting the women’s game and championing it yeah I think it’s absolutely massive

Um to have someone like Chris as as an ally to to the women’s game um and kind of being outspoken about that I think is is brilliant and um I think it’s actually kind of the last few years the way things have been particularly with the hundred or or the way things have

Been marketed I think it’s kind of brought the two games a lot closer together and there’s a lot more kind of bounceing back and forwards and actually it just feels like Cricket it doesn’t feel like you have to label it as men’s or women’s like obviously it always has

That label but actually there’s so much more um conversation going on around all of it um and I think it’s just it’s great to have have voices um not just women’s voices kind of champion in that and we’ve seen in the 100 actually the Manchester Originals had it last year

Where they had both the men’s and the women’s side spend a lot of time together so it is as you say that united front is that something you experienced with Welsh fire or is that something maybe you’re looking to to do in this for example yeah I think it’s certainly

Something we did this year I think in previous years potentially haven’t but um I think the fire in particular seems like quite a family Vibe um a lot of the lads had their their wives or girlfriends down we’ve got a couple of kids um from a couple of our players and

Um just a real kind of family Vibe we even have a couple of dogs that come along my dog comes along so it’s an absolutely massive family Vibe a lot of kind of social time spent together I think a lot of the time because a lot aren’t from Cardiff themselves it is it

Does become a bit of a hub our team hotel and um yeah we turn it a bit red and try and just get everyone involved really which is great and Chris for you are speaking here ahead of the the The Joint Series against Pakistan in May is

There any plans in place for the men’s to go watch the women’s team and then maybe Tammy for you vice versa we start off with You Chris yeah well I mean I I don’t know exact plans as as as of now but I think there should definitely be something

Like that put in place I think um as you said for the fact that the series has being played you know effectively alongside each other aline the series I think he’s you know he’s really important um and I think as Tammy said I think the the two teams both the men and

The women it’s it’s never been as close as it is now I think there’s a lot of um Talk between the players um at venues as you said around the 100 games uh and it’s brought the two games together and effectively that game now is is effectively won which is the way it

Should be um and hopefully that’s only going to develop moving forward so um hopefully there is uh something where you know that the two teams can can get to to see each other play um and I think that’s why these series are have put together and have been developed the way

They are is to try and I suppose promote that as much as possible and and get people watching England cricket as a whole not just the men and and the women and and for you Tommy yes I certainly hope so I know we we made an effort to to come down to

Edgebaston for for the ashes test and we’ve obviously got a game at edgebaston this time so Works he only down the road so that should be the one come absolutely so we’ve also seen the ECB last summer introduce eil match free for both the men’s and the women’s side

Aside from the money itself just how important is that Tammy for you that it’s it’s more about equality isn’t it and an equal fitting as opposed to the money itself yeah absolutely I think that’s that’s the big thing is it it’s about equality and for me I don’t think

Equality necessarily means um absolutely equal pay yet I think it’s kind of a scale of of what Revenue you bring in and and that type of thing and but actually for me it’s the equal opportunity I think that the big one that absolutely every single one of my

Teammates want it’s you know we want to play at the big venues we want to play in prime time um you know days of the week and time slots which um which we had for the ashes last year and exactly the same for this this Pakistan series

Kind of making sure that we didn’t clash with the men’s ashes test um we’ve kind of played the day after or or t20s were 7 o’clock at night making sure that you know we had a prime slot and the men had a prime slot and we weren’t crashing um

And that kind of to me is how you we start to get equality because then we’re actually you know if we’re 2 o’ on a Tuesday outside of school holidays no one’s coming um so you can never sell the game whereas now we’re starting to sell the game you know we’ve already got

Record ticket sales for this summer already ahead of last year and you know it was an ashy summer which is massive so um for me I think the the equal kind of financial um rewards will kind of get there because of getting equal opportunity first um if that makes any

Sense whatsoever yeah yeah it does and and Chris for you you worked did some pun you worked for the hundred you saw the crowds at the women’s game just how refreshing was that to turn up to the big grounds and see the attendances last year especially and as Tammy said even

More this year coming up yeah amazing really um like you say I think I think that’s the the one real benefit and positive that has come out of of the hundred obviously seeing you know big big crowds at women’s games um and you know I think Tommy just touched

On it there I’m biased to biased to Edge Bon but whenever we got down there there was there was a great great crowd for for both the men and the women really supporting the teams um and I think Tammy’s hit the that on the head I think

Playing in the in the big venues um is really you know important moving forward I think they should obviously get the opportunity to play at these venues um but also I think that inspires you know young young girls and young boys to to go watch and to see their their role

Models playing in these you know amazing test venues that have so much history and you know people have seen for many years um I think having that opportunity is huge and I think we we’re moving the right direction with that um but as you touched on start the question the 100

Has been an absolute Revelation for for for both the men and the women’s game I believe and they certainly pushed it in the right direction and we’ve seen the the women’s side have the the the appearance at the Commonwealth Games we’ve got Cricket at the the Olympics

Being outed as well so Tammy is it more a case of the ceiling is there is no ceiling for the women’s game you’re starting to have spin camps Pace balling camps and that sort of stuff so the development of the women’s game has been huge recently yeah absolutely I think um for

Me it’s the how quickly uh the game is is growing and accelerating rapidly I think the standard just seems to go up every single series you play um no matter who you’re playing against everyone’s hitting B further boundaries bowling faster Fielding better I think that’s just because of the

Professionalism of the game and um yeah it’s kind of great to see how far it could go with the likes of things in the Commonwealth Games Olympics just getting that game to to a wider audience um yeah it’s a really exciting time to be part

Of the game and um yeah I think you know the sky is the limit really and the obviously the English stommer starts off with that Pakistan series but there’s there’s two T20 World Cups this year there’s one in Bangladesh for the women’s one’s in the West Indies and and

USA for the men’s as well so we’ll start off with you Tammy how excited are you for for 2024 as a whole yeah a a massive year for us and we’ve got pretty much back-to-back cricket from sort of now until um in December time when we I think we’ve got

A test match in South Africa for for the first time in in years and years so um it’s a really exciting year and yeah hopefully be part of that that T20 in in Bangladesh um I think it would be a great tournament to to go to and

Probably one of the the most high standards women’s tourn tourament so far so um yeah it’s a really exciting time to to be part of this England team and Chris for you you obviously missing the the India series that’s going on at the minute but staying fresh ahead of the IP

And then the T20 World Cup later in the year yeah yeah there’s some some real real busy Cricket I mean there there’s always a a schedule to work towards isn’t there it seems to be packed all the time nowadays so um yeah a nice little breather at home before what you

Know it’s going to be a busy IPL and then hopefully into a into a World Cup in in the West Indies and and the states as you mentioned um you know there’s always feels like there’s a big tournament or a big series around the corner noway so um yeah exciting year

Ahead and you know fingers crossed it can be a you know a really rewarding one for both the men and the women and Tammy just finally looking ahead then do you think we will see a time or or when do you think we’ll see the time that for

Example Sue redferns this become the first women’s umpire to to manage in a men’s international when when do you think would be the time we stop saying the first women and it just considered as the norm really that that this is an equal sport for everyone no matter male

Fale yeah I think I don’t think it’ll be long I think you know the fact that you know people are being the first I think you see in the the rugby Six Nations now I don’t think it’s unusual to see a a a a lines person be a woman you’re seeing

It in football more and more I think I think it’s great really I think it’ll probably be a couple of years years and and it’ll just be the norm to to see any sex or gender officiating in any kind of sport and that was England Internationals Tammy Bowmont and Chris

Wokes speaking to talk sports Scott Taylor who produces our show as well yeah to celebrate International women’s day and to look ahead to the Joint Series against Pakistan in May right hary just a couple of minutes to go uh Kent Daren middlex Somerset and North ANS are amongst counties set to

Bid for a professional women’s team as the ECB looks to revamp in 2025 um just it’s all good news isn’t it I mean tremendous brilliant news honestly it is it’s brilliant news it’s getting better and better uh as more the the women’s game develops um I know I’m trying to get

Rachel to come on to our show for the next couple of weeks from Durham to prove you know to push the the Durham K that we want them you know if we can’t get a 100 team this far north we’ll get a women’s team this far North to

Showcase what you know what fantastic you know skill sets that are on show for the women’s game and they are getting better and better and better and it’s getting more and more um popular in all over the country because this minute I just sometimes feels are the women’s games

Centralized you know we live in a big country and there’s a lot of people want to watch it but unfortunately I don’t think everybody can get it in the four corners so that’s why I’m pushing in the Durham bed okay um good for you and and

Good luck to them rul dver the Indian coach was reacting to the news that J Shaw the secretary of the BCCI has announced a scheme in which Indian players will be financially rewarded for playing test Cricket this is what coach and a great player himself Rahul jard

Had to say about that I really hope money is not going to be the incentive to play test Cricket it’s just nice it’s just nice that uh the hard work and how tough test Cricket can be is being recognized so I don’t I wouldn’t see it

As an incentive to make people play test Cricket I I really hope not I hope it’ll never come down to that but but I think it’s just a probably it’s really nice to see that it’s a recognition that this is a tough format and it’s a hard format

And it takes uh it takes a special person to do what Ashwin has done play 100 test matches you go through a lot and rightly so and and you guys celebrated Ashwin today you’ve celebrated Johnny besto and Ben Stokes a few games ago and because I think all of

You recognize how challenging and tough this format is and what it takes to be able to have consistency and to be able to survive the test of time in this format uh we don’t celebrate a 100 t20s in the same way do we but but yeah so

It’s nice that the BCC is I think uh recognizing that uh that it it’s just reward I think it’s not an incentive I think it’s a reward but no I I still really hope I mean looking at the guys who came in and played in the series I

Think everyone wants to play test Cricket I think people want to play testet Cricket it’s just a recognition of what you need to be able to do to survive and play in test Cricket that um sometimes you know it’s only when you get here and you realize sometimes it’s

Quite tough and you know it’s it’s it’s not a not a it’s not easy but it’s extremely satisfying you know uh and and no I I still think there are people who and especially series like this and and test matches like the ones we’ve seen in

The last four five months and if they’re well supported and well documented by people like you I’m sure that there’ll be a lot of people still wanting to play test Cricket that’s R David hoping that money isn’t all that motivates players to play test Cricket we’re on to the

Final word hary and I’m going to give you a choice of three today uh first of all morer asmus retiring from umpiring after 82 tests 124 Odis and 43 t20s and 18 women’s Odis a very very popular figure a real um commanding presence um who never imposed himself on the players

And never had to so there’s that’s your first choice second choice is Sri Lanka celebrating their ODI Series win against Bangladesh by posing for a team photograph with all of them pointing towards their watches or imaginary watches after Angelo Matthews controversial timed out dismissal against those opponents at the at the

World Cup and choice number three goes to mmad RZ uh dur during that series he became the first first man in the history of the game just when you thought that all the firsts were taken the first man ever to become the third player in a hatrick in all three formats

He was the hatrick man in tests and OB eyes and now in T20 eyes amazing oh well that one’s got a win to be honest is is the is the choice because you got to be some batter if you are the third person in all three formats to be hatrick but

You know I thought the I thought Angelo Matthews is hilarious and Maria Rasmus but somebody who stands there any stone face doesn’t say a great deal has a brilliant sense of humor he really has so congratul relations to Maria Rasmus because he’s he’s a wonderful man fantastic umpire but he stands there he

Looks as though he’s not interested he’s got you know very very stoned you know doesn’t say a great deal you know from a you know verbally when he you see him talking to players he doesn’t give a great deal away but well were in India

Had two or three you know cers with him and what a funny funny man and a really passionate golfer so I’m sure he’s going to enjoy some time on the golf course and so he showed he’s been a wonderful servant to to to to world cricket as a

Man in the middle when he started his playing career for Borland in South Africa he was still a primary school teacher life has provided him with unimagined riches and uh he deserves them good on him as you say he’s a terrific BL uh you’ve been listening to

Following on here on talk sport 2 with me manle along with former England fast bowler Steve harson um and if you missed any of the show or you want to catch up you can download the podcast as always from The Following on feed available via the fre talk sport app we’ll be back

Next week as we build up to the start of the 2024 County season can you believe it less than a month away or just over a month away but for now this has been following on On am on D via the talk sport app and on your smart speaker talk sport