PFF’s Brad Spielberger & CBS’s Chris Trapasso talk NFL Combine buzz about Kirk Cousins & JJ McCarthy

Matthew Coller talks with Brad Spielberger of PFF about whether he believes Kirk Cousins will come back to the Vikings and their potential plans in free agency if that’s the case. CBS’s Chris Trapasso said he heard in Indy that JJ McCarthy may be a top 10 pick…where would that leave the Vikings?

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Hey everybody Welcome inside the Indiana Convention Center Matthew caller here for purple Insider with Brad Spielberger for Pro Football Focus well Brad this is your 743d appearance on the podcast great to have you back and you’ll never believe what we’re talking about you and I salary cap Kirk Cousins it’s your first

Time ever on this show talking about it so hopefully you can keep up no I’m I’m just kidding but uh let let me just start out with this let me just jump right in hot what do you think the Vikings are going to do a quarterback I

Am starting to get the sense that this might be like the finally the the situation where they move on I I just think that there are other teams across the NFL that are more desperate and more willing to give him you know let’s say two years 80 million with the lineon

Share of that fully guaranteed um effectively all of it even if it’s not all of it effectively making it impossible to move on um like I just think there are other teams whether it’s Atlanta I think more people should be talking about Denver um that are in that

Market that I just don’t know if Minnesota is willing to go there now Kirk you know takes less and it wants to stay in Minnesota then maybe it gets done but if his ultimate goal is getting the most money possible and the strongest contract structure possible I

Think that happens elsewhere well and I mean he said it that structure was going to be the most important thing explain that to me though when we talk about structure I mean guaranteed money everybody understands but is there more to that conversation if you are the

Great Magic Mike m bney his agent and and you’re negotiating this with the Minnesota Vikings what what are you walking in asking for that isn’t just the pure dollar figure that Adam Sher is goingon to tweet out yeah yeah so so beond the guarantees too it’s it’s cash

Flows so you want as much money as early as possible so you know you want maybe a ma major signing bonus um or a lot of prated money early on because you’re also if you’re him probably saying all right this is the last window I have to

Try to chase a ring you know two-year deal throw on three void years give me a gigantic signing bonus that I get you know the first three months of the deal I’m getting you know on a 2-year 80 let’s say like 30 million of that put

That in a signing bonus um spread that out spend around me add players around me so yeah it’s also just when you’re getting your cash um and then protection so obviously guarantees are protection but also like we saw in Denver and and other places it doesn’t mean you can’t

You know move off of it so um early trigger dates so like the money in 2025 being guaranteed right away not a a later date where it would kick in hey your 2025 guarantee would kick in the first week of 2025 like no like doing it

All upfront at the jump so there’s no out for the team how hard would that be to do for a Vikings team that needs so much just before we went on we were talking about defensive tackle and how big of a need that is they have a guy in

Harrison Phillips who’s more of a five to 600 snap player who they were asking to play Borderline a thousand snaps last year which is just you know I mean they they had to do it and I give him credit for trying but Jonathan Bullard was playing 600 something snaps uh they

Don’t have defensive ends and I did not get the vibe that or that denal Hunter is coming back you need a linebacker I mean there’s so much to do here with the roster how restrictive would it be to give Kirk everything he wants yeah I think it becomes very very tough because

You are making Justin Jefferson the highest paid receiver in NFL history this offseason um that’s going to happen at some point I’m not giving inside information I’m just it’s going to happen at some point um you know and then like you know darus House’s coming down the line there are other deals that

You have to figure out on the offensive side of the football and that’s the big thing for me is like the defense like what Flores did last year was a modern miracle I mean that defense talent wise was as bad as it gets across the NFL so and you’re losing you know potentially

Like you mentioned is denil not going to be there I know wanam isn’t a superstar but wanam is a 800 snap eater like solid football player that like does matter um you know on a defense so yeah it becomes really really tough I don’t see how you significantly improve the defensive side

Of the ball and teams are we saw it already are going to catch up to blitzing 60% of the time or dropping eight like it worked until it didn’t and Flores there’s a ton of credit but the gimmicks are like teams are going to adjust what do you think about the

Dynamic between quacy daensa and Kevin oconnell here um because it was my observation yesterday at the podium and uh as of right now we’re recording this we haven’t done our sitdown with those guys we’re going to do it a little bit later so we’ll have more information but

If you just I don’t know if you’ve ever heard this comparison but when uh the Nixon Kennedy presidential race happened there’s this famous thing about how if you watched on TV you thought Kennedy did better but if you listened you thought Nixon did better it might be a

Little bit of a myth but it’s always been this thing that’s this brought up if so the comparison would be if you listen to quy daensa and then you listen to Kevin oconnell you would have different opinions on what you thought was going to happen if you listen to

Oconnell you’d think Kirk’s coming back because he loves him and he thinks he can run his offense but if you listen to quacy and he layered into his comments you know you need a guy who could play in structure and out of structure when things go wrong you’re like oh yeah I

Can’t think of any 36 year olds with Achilles injuries that are making great plays out of structure and uh then talking about hey it’s a negotiation with Kirk it’s a negotiation um what if there’s a difference of opinion there like what happens if the head coach views this vastly differently from the

General manager I think that’s the biggest thing is that it’s hard for I think coaches to wrap their mind around like for the right price this makes sense there is a cof point where it no longer Mak sense and I think if you’re a football coach trying

To win football games and keep your job and and you know run your offense and and all that in your mind it’s probably easy to say like why would a difference of 510 million doar or X structure change like our desire to do that or not do that and from a front office

Standpoint yeah it’s more a holistic view you are thinking about a million different decisions on the line and fixing other areas that Kevin doesn’t care about the defense I mean they bring in a phenomenal defensive coordinator a guy that maybe could be look getting head coach looks again down

The road obviously a lot of Dynamics there but um like they need to give that guy resources to use and to work with so I think there probably is a bit of a disagreement and a bit of a split there like I I I wouldn’t be surprised at all

And what do you do if there is a split there I mean to me the general manager is brought in uh and this isn’t trying to will it into existence I promise but the the general manager is brought into build a roster he’s brought into to be an economics Master right to understand

The value of his Commodities and I know that it’s human being so we can’t talk of it exactly that way because there are so many dynamics that go into this and that’s where you have a decision that can break apart a Duo when it comes to this and this happened already between

Rick Spielman and Mike Zimmer over kurk cousins where Mike Zimmer did not want Kurt Cousins and made that very clear to anyone who ever inquired and uh you know we Pinn it on Rick Spielman it may have been ownership it may have been you know kind

Of the powers that be above but he never really bought into that and that Dynamic broke apart that was very strong in building the first iteration the one that went to the NFC Championship Game and this decision has that potential to kind of be a fork in the road with this

Relationship between quaa and Kevin oconnell but I also think with Connell what’s what’s harder for coaches is they need to see it work whereas a general manager his job is to see into the future so I can see into the future and say that Sam darnold or jacobe brassette

Paired with JJ McCarthy could do better things than a 36-year-old Kirk Cousins who’s coming off of a very serious injury but to a coach he’s seen it work with cousins he’s seen them score points he’s seen him run his offense and the last thing that he saw was Kirk Cousins

Looking absolutely great against the Green Bay Packers and I think that that has impacted the the way that even Kevin o Connell would see this situation so the moving Parts go beyond just the X’s and O’s of uh the the numbers with quid daensa uh they they go all the way to I

Think a kind of personal like deeper level with this decision and that that is why it’s hard to figure out what’s going to happen here and I would say this too if you want to say right well what if you’re Kevin oconnell you say all right if we’re going to move on from

Kirk then are you going to trade from 11 to three like right like like what are we going to do that like it’s not you know this one decision has Downstream effects that changes the entire complexion of the roster changes how you run your offense what you know like are

You getting a rookie and building out of the infrastructure to to bring that guy along have a veteran to work with him and you know I guess you know m is in the fold but that’s the thing too it’s like okay well if we’re not going to

Playay him then then what are we going to do um and I hate qu I know you don’t probably don’t love trading up three first round picks to go from 11 to three but if we’re not keeping Kirk then that’s what I want to do um so yeah it’s

It’s a it’s a it’s a tug and pole and like the thing is you know to a degree we don’t think and look at roster construction and winning football games this way but like these are guys where you have a good off season let’s say you

Okay let’s just say it’s Kirk and they make the playoffs again those guys are getting extended or let say you take a rookie and he shows promise maybe you’re like a wild card team or maybe you’re getting extended if you make the bad decision you might be getting fired

Right well and that exists for everything and this is why I refuse to think that one thing is less firable than the other if it goes wrong in fact if you draft the wrong quarterback like San Francisco did but you find another one you could avoid that potentially now

I’m not saying in the seventh round necessarily but there have been other situations where you draft a quarterback uh Tampa Bay drafts jamus Winston that’s a bust but then Tom Brady wants to play there because you’ve built up your team uh and even with the Philadelphia Eagles

Where you have Carson Wentz and he’s a serviceable quarterback you move on you develop Jaylen Herz over a couple of Seasons but what’s happening is you’re building up this great team to where a lot of quarterbacks could succeed and that’s really the goal the goal is to be

So strong that like in 2017 you’re starting quarterback can go down and your backup quarterback can take you deep that’s the goal for a roster and don’t see how it’s possible at all to build that in a Time window of Kirt cousins because if this team looked like

The roster of 2019 Minnesota Vikings I would be like okay I get it extend him take another shot at it we’ll see you know try to fix the left guard position or something but it doesn’t and when you go through it and you compare what they

Have right now to what they had in that previous era where they did that it’s just so crazy different there was pro bowlers all over the field and now it’s they don’t even have players they don’t even have actual humans who fill those roster spots so let’s talk about two

Different plans though two different offseason plans starting with if they are going to draft quarterbacks so let’s say Atlanta comes in and says 40 million a year fully guaranteed for two years and Kirk says I’m going to ATL baby and starts playing Outcast music uh naturally naturally uh I don’t know that

That’s in his playlist except for maybe heya probably hya in um the early stuff definitely not so anyway but um let’s say that that Kirk leaves now you mentioned trading up I still like this idea even though I know it’s wrong it’s like when I go to Taco Bell again I’m

Like you know what is this bad yeah this is bad for me healthwise but I also I really want to eat my Taco Bell so I’m just going I really want that franchise quarterback so we’re just going is is that an unwise way to look at it from my personal health perspective

It is with the Taco Bell but is it unwise to say hey number three is the New England Patriots they want to trade out of that rather than picking a quarterback Drake May is on the board let’s go for it is that crazy to do no I

Don’t I I think that the justification for a massive trade up for a quarterback it it is worthwhile if you are and again we agree the defense needs help but if you’re dropping a rookie quarterback into a situation with two good tackles and two good receivers and a great tight

End like it doesn’t get much better than what you could hyp atically give offensively to this guy you said got to figure out you know bring back rner figure out left guard whatever but it’s about as good as it can get on the the offensive side of the ball in terms of

What you’re dropping a rookie quarterback into working with so I with that context like no it’s not crazy and of course people will point to the TR L trade or whatever um yeah didn’t work out but but no That Swing it’s it’s a swing you take and then if you say all

Right all that savings obviously we’re giving up draft Capital but all that Financial savings is now being poured into the defense um you know and that’s that’s how you go about it I think that is it’s a justifiable approach I agree and you know when I look at it from a

Surplus value perspective of uh you know when you draft a quarterback and if he succeeds how much money that’s worth uh maybe even two three years ago we could have been saying well you know if the guy is making 10 million a year as being a top draft pick then you’re getting

Like 20 something million from the top quarterbacks now that number might be 30 it might be 40 if guys are going to make $50 million year and the rookie contract is only going to put you for a salary cap hit for the number three overall pick at eight to 12 million or whatever

It’s going to be over those years that is $40 million and and I know that yes those other first round picks would also have Surplus value but nothing in comparison to that a defensive tackle if you draft a defensive tackle and he’s just okay versus finding one in free

Agency that’s not even close to what it is for a quarterback and I also agree that when you can drop someone into a situation like that with Jefferson and the way that Addison played and the coach that you have who is a guy who’s worked very closely with quarterbacks

His whole career they just brought in Josh Macau you cannot fail with Josh mcau in the building I I mean it just is all set up so well and this has just become this has become my take after watching Drake may I to I took some time

And I sat down and I watched a couple games and I saw the things that people don’t like but I also saw a lot of Matt staffordish level this dude has a crazy arm and he does some stuff where you’re like that’s not good but he has the

Touch on the fast ball he’s got the Deep ball I mean he him and Justin Jefferson paired together to me look like the best pair you could come up with out of all the draftable quarterbacks and if it takes moving up to get him then take your shot because this franchise is

Known for not taking its shot yeah no no and I think the thing with May um is there are issues there but to me they’re fixable like when you look at okay like what are the the pain points the warts with with a prospected quarterback they’re all gonna have them obviously

And the bigger question is just are these things that we think bringing a Josh maccau have a Kevin oconnell that they can work through and fix in relatively short order and I do think that’s the case with may like don’t make the dumb decisions where you’re Josh Allen running and taking unnecessary

Hits which obviously still he still does but bring that down he drifts In Pockets a little bit sometimes air mailes balls with you know some like sloppy footwork like things that like yeah you bring in and work on the fundamentals and the technique and if that improves you’re

Talking about a very very talented player that has like you said I mean Canon for an arm good athlete throws over the middle of the field like it takes risks honestly the biggest difference like people keep making the Herbert comp which I understand it but he’ll take risks like he he he will

Throw a ball into a tight window and which you need to do it sometimes um so yeah no it’s it’s there will be maybe a first year your struggle but I think he’s going to be a very very good player yeah I like Stafford more as a comp

Because he’s Reckless than than Justin Herbert who won’t be reckless in fact needs to be more Reckless and the plan for the Chargers is to hand off more that’s and hire not a great offensive coordinator and Greg Roman that’s that’s their plan I’m not confident in it uh

Make him more Alex Smithy with San Francisco I guess that would not be my idea for a $50 million quarterback with that arm but that is someone else’s problem to talk about uh so that plan would go along with then and any rookie draft pick plan would go along with you

Can spend as much money as you want now of course their 2025 cap situation is wonderful it’s the Pearly Gates opening to Heaven that they have been missing for so long in Capell uh but this year they could sign people and structure contracts so they’re a little more

Expensive down the road and that wouldn’t hurt them because that’s when their cap is going to be better if you are to draft a quarterback then how do you allocate that money because I I think they’re going to have a very tough time wooing free agents on Madden all

You do is go to free agent click and then the guy just comes and plays for your team it’s amazing yeah that’s not how real football works because the Lions went to the NFC championship game Chicago is a team on the rise uh you know you have all sorts of teams with

More cap space the cap just went up so there’s going to be some drunken sailor spending from other teams that are desperate to win uh the Minnesota Vikings I don’t think have a great chance of Landing big fish in free agency no matter how much money they throw at them because players are

Looking for teams that are on the cusp of winning Super Bowls if the money is even they’re not going to come to a team that went seven and 10 last year and looks like it’s it lost at sea a little bit um with all that considered what

Would your free agency approach be if they had Drake May or just you know McCarthy bonick whoever they were drafting if it if it was a drafted quarterback I’m more bullish on on players wanting to go there because at the end of the day it’s if you make the

Biggest offer the player wants to go there uh yes they want to win for sure they also want to you know fill their coffers with with coin um so yeah obviously it could be a challenge to have the strongest offer for some of those top end players but yeah I’m

Attacking the defensive line especially if you let denil go that’s obviously the first kind of catalyst decision either direction but we talk pre-show on the interior in particular um you know a guy that can that can one Gap get up field Rush the pass from the interior to me um

It is like the most glaring weakness I think maybe for the entire roster so I’m starting there there’s obviously the big flashy names the guys that probably aren’t going to make it to the market like a Christian Wilkins um but you know there’s good players Sheldon rankins

There are that next tier that middle tier of player um you know maybe take a risk on a guy like a tire tart obviously have to figure out the the non-f football stuff there but like there are a bunch of good football players right below that top tier um that I think

Would make a meaningful impact pretty much right away Ty tart known for being thrown out of a Vikings joint practice and having to play the first half of a preseason game that no other starters played for the Titans and then being Let Go by his team despite being awesome at

Football uh but that guy yes that guy but so I I was thinking about Javon kinlaw and I don’t like Javon kinlaw when I watch him with my eyeballs but I think that’s the type of free agent that makes sense to me this year is players

Who are under 27 years old and that they have potential upside and if I use Marcus Davenport as an example everyone is going to vomit well listening to this but uh how about Byron Murphy as an example as what they did last year was looked for a couple guys who were top

Picks who underachieved but had played and so you’re hoping that you bring them in and there’s more upside there and they can find their roles better and I do believe if you play for Brian Flores you have the best chance if you can’t make it with Brian Flores then you’re

Just not that good probably and so I I think that if they looked for those guys this year and then the plan was for next year to try to go really big game hunting if you’re a year into that rookie that would be the best approach

But you know I mean Brian Flores might also want football players on his team and for them to get somebody like Christian Wilkin so you kind of have those two approaches of you could go big game hunting and you could try to get much better really fast through this

Year’s free agency or take a little more of a slower approach with younger players hoping for upside and then go next year uh do you like that plan do you hate that plan no I do I do and look yeah kinlaw down to down was a lack of

Consistency but you still do see flashes as a pass rusher he’s not good against the run but you see flashes of like not many humans this size can move this move this you know burstly off the line burstly that’s that’s a new word um that’s a early morning uh Indie word bur

Mariam Webster check that out bursty um no like you see flashes of it yeah I think it’s a one-year flyer he’s not have a strong Market um that that does make sense for sure like you’re saying like that’s this is the bridge year and

Then if you do want to make some ma more major splashes um you start looking into those those deals so yeah no I think I think that type of player and I’m blanking now but there are some other like caliber of player in that range as

Well um that I think are taking shorter term not that much money um young upside all those things and again I get that there’s like the sticker shock with with Marcus Davenport but the idea and the process was sound the result obviously was not right and I think there’s some

Ed rers that are definitely like that AJ EPA one guy uh is it uch from from the Patriots where you know those guys have shown that they can play in the NFL is there a little bit more uh Bryce Huff is another guy from the New York Jets Who

As a situational rusher was terrific could you sign him and give him a bigger role with Brian Flores and get more out of that so I I like that a little bit more and I think that you should take your shot when it’s time but also if

There’s pressure to win right away you might have to take some bigger swings I do think it’s going to be hard for this team to get players of the top caliber with someone like the lions having so much cap space and the Bears um but I

Guess you know we’ll see on that now the other side of it is if they bring back her cousins then you have to in my mind go veteran shopping but also cheaper veteran shopping and you have to be really Savvy now this has not worked at

All in the past this is Delvin Tomlinson this is Michael Pierce this is Sheldon Richardson part one and part two neither of which were that great so uh that that level of free agency I think is the hardest to play in which is the let’s

Get the second tier guy who is Team let him go for a reason but also you know has a history of maybe being pretty decent or impactful how would you approach it if you were limited by the Kirk situation it definitely gets tough no there’s no question about it and the

Also probably you’d think would be trying to win though and and so like trying to push a little bit more with less resources that you’re probably looking at like veterans you’re probably more in like a Fletcher Cox Market or or or trying to court you know mention Miami connections like an Andrew van

Gingle on the edge or trying to Leverage The hey you you’ve played good football with Brian Flores in the past you know he puts you in position to succeed it can work and you’ve seen that and we’re a team that is trying to get a ring in

The next two years or Le make a deep playoff run in the NFC so it’s tough yeah because I think you are spending on quarterback and you probably all trying be a little bit more aggressive at least this offseason and adding more Talent on defense too well and they could go big

Game hunting if they were willing to kick all the money down the road and they might have to do that I just think that’s a hard thing to do because if you aim for those big stars and you miss out on them and then you’re just kind of up

A creek but this we’ve seen some of these signings work out I mean Patrick Peterson worked out extremely extremely well for them and I thought you know I mean Delvin Tomlinson was also a very good player for them it’s it’s not that they never work it’s just that the

Impact is usually limited there’s only so much again another player I have immense respect for Jordan Hicks there’s only so much that a Jordan Hicks can do that guy is more of a final piece than the piece that’s going to change which is fundamentally the the difficult uh

Thing about working around a Kurt Cousins contract as everybody knows so well uh last thing I wanted to ask you is just how does Kirk Cousins contract situation work um everybody’s heard about the $28 Million Dead cap if he goes does that make it for a hard

Deadline of March 13th where they need to bring him back by then or let him go like that decision needs to be made because the 28 million kicks in or can that be dealt with because I’ve looked at that more like a that’s a deadline they need an answer from Kirk and and

They’re going to have their number and so forth um but what like what do we need to know about Kurt Cousins contract details uh that pertain to this whole decision yeah well I guess if they were making significant Headway and thought they were going to get a deal done then

You could ask to push the void date back right say all right like clear we’re going to get this done we’ve agreed in principle on the high level numbers um but we’re not quite at the finish line yet but we don’t want this to void and

You saw them do it last year or two years ago with dvin Tomlinson um you know saying hey the date was originally this now it’s after uh the tag window after all these things if you think you’re at the finish line with Kirk but it’s not quite done say hey let’s make

It March 30th and that way we can keep those C pits spread out um but that would be effective the deal would be agreed to in principle at that point so B basically it’s a deadline yeah okay uh and uh is there anything else we need to

Know about that 28 million is that that is just gone that is just over with and done after this year and then you’re good to go nothing you can do with it can’t manipulate it in any way but yeah take take the dead cap hit and then like

You said 2025 the the sky open that sounds pretty attractive to me uh Brad Spielberger from Pro Football Focus well we’ll see uh what ends up happening here of course and uh we’ll have more information when we talk to Quia daensa and Kevin oconnell again here at the NFL

Combine and lots more interviews and conversations to go thanks for stopping by man really appreciate it of course thanks for having me hey everybody welcome to another episode of purple Insider Matthew caller along with CBS Sports Draft analyst Chris trap Paso inside the Indiana Convention Center

Here and you know I want to talk about Chris is you just flew in last night we did a podcast inside a hotel room that was not the best lit or the perfect background for us now we got a little bit better sitting your window here in the convention center official but you

Had a whole evening to wander about and if people have never been to Indianapolis before it is a very walkable City and I think that’s what the NFL likes about it is that in the evening time you go from place to place you see who’s out you kind of hang out talk football

And I think probably for about six hours last night I was just out talking ball saw you out as well so we should just talk about the buzz from India I think that’s what everyone would like to know so I will just start with this that I

Had numerous people say to me and and this could be just other reporters or people in the league or whatever that they don’t think that the Vikings are going to be able to put up the biggest offer for Kirk Cousins not that they don’t think the Vikings want Kirk

Cousins back but that there’s going to be another team that’s gonna put up more money for the Minnesota Vikings that was kind of the biggest thing that I was like oh a lot of people think that Atlanta or Vegas and someone told me like don’t you know count out the

Broncos as part of this so that’s like my new favorite take like oh buzz and Indie Broncos keep your eye on that for the Vikings so I love it that’s that’s kind of what I heard because every person I talk to sometimes there other beat reporters I met a beat reporter

From the Lions so we’re talking about the division and stuff like what are they going to do they just bringing back Kirk you know that kind of thing everyone wants to know what’s going to happen there now you are much more of a prospect guy much more of a scouting guy

So what were you hearing as you were chatting it up last night in Indie well first off you’re totally right that that’s like part of what you need to do when you’re hear at the combine is is go out talk to people beat reporters Scouts agents are everywhere normally this is like the

Sixth fifth or sixth time that I’ve been here and normally you go around and you get that Buzz or you’re looking for that you just what’s great is you can just nerd out with everyone it’s not like oh I’m talking with my friends at home and it’s like I’m going into the seventh

Round defensive tackles like you can do that here and it’s totally fine like people like that normally there’s not really a consensus you talk to one guy and he says uh I I don’t like this wide receiver then you turn around 20 minutes later you’re talking to a girl and she

Says oh we think that this team loves this wide receiver almost a consensus from three separate people which I think in one night getting the same thing from three different people Buzz is pretty good um that JJ McCarthy is probably not going to be on the board when the

Vikings pick at 11 now it’s early and he still has to work out but like these people that were in The Scouting uh field let’s say were like very confident about it which again no one knows for sure but it was not like oh maybe he

Could be there at at you know later in the first and the Vikings are going to probably pick him it was he may not even be there by 11 that it seems as though right now pre-workout for JJ McCarthy that the quote unquote the NFL that

Could be the whole NFL or one team or 10 teams likes JJ McCarthy more than I think Matthew ker and the media in general so that was interesting because we’ve talked about him as you know potential option b or c for the Vikings just to stay put pick him at 11 and

That’s was how I kind of broached that topic I was like what do you think about J.J McCarthy to the Vikings and all three responses where he may not even be there and you know I’ve mentioned this on the show before but even when I did an article with a couple of former

Scouts and was just chatting with them they were very high on JJ McCarthy as well and I just am gonna have to have you explain it to me because all right so let’s talk about if there if he is off the board by the time the Vikings

Are picking where would he be going like does that mean that a somebody likes him more than Jaden Daniels because I I could actually see that and maybe I’m wrong to doubt Jaden Daniels maybe like he’s so fast and he’s so physically gifted that someone’s just going to be

Like all right you got to take him but we fell for that trap with Malik Willis and I have made fun of it before and I know that you fell victim a little bit to that as well the traits the tools and assuming that the NFL would just buy

Into that now with Daniels he’s a much better Prospect than Malik Willis in my mind the guy won the Heisman unbelievable statistics and performance but it was a smaller sample size and he does have some of that slow like should I throw the ball should I throw the ball

Oh I’m sacked and it was the hardest sack ever and an NFL guy would murder me like there’s a lot of that on this tape would that throw the NFL off a little bit or those top teams from making him their franchise quarterback and instead

Feel McCarthy is a safer option or do we think four quarterbacks could go in the top 10 that seems Preposterous it seems like somebody would have to drop well to me it it might be Drake May at this point based on some more Buzz that it’s what you just outlined with Jaden

Daniels not that he would get picked because he won the Heisman but the speed that he fits that modern profile that that teams are just so into and there’s such a trend to find those highly athletic quarterbacks the Deep ball touch I mean again you could argue for

For hours or days on was it Malik neighbors and Brian Thomas that really helped him out but there were a lot of deep strikes down the field and that what I actually was hearing is that it could be the Giants at six that picked JJ mccarth because Joe Shane and Brian D worked

With Josh Allen not that McCarthy is a josh Allen type like like he’s not to that level athletically with the arm but he’s leaning in that direction as opposed to being mobile and not having a strong arm he he does have that long linky arms delivery and wild fast balls

That kind of go everywhere and Josh Allen was able to work out the Kinks there I think that’s what you’d be betting on yeah with somebody like JJ McCarthy uh so we’ve got I’m not sure what pay treats are going to do they don’t seem like a quarterback team to me

Because they have so many needs they could for sure Washington feels like a guarantee Chicago also feels well nothing’s a guarantee but Chicago also feels like they as close as you’re going to get to a guarantee a lock to be able to do that and then Atlanta I think is

Gonna find somebody else whether Fields whether it’s Mayfield whether it’s cousins we’ll see would that leave the possibility of Drake may just being available to that seems like I made it up I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility we’ve seen crazier things happen maybe I

Mean let’s think about this last year no one expected will Levis to be I mean there was a little sliver of the draft industry that was like oh I don’t I’m out on will Levis but I don’t think anyone expected him to go to the second round like like realistically it was oh

He could be the quarterback who slips a little bit maybe he’s not in the top 10 or top 16 but he goes somewhere in the back half of the of the first he goes in the second so we have definitely seen crazier things happen you mentioned it

Um yesterday about Drake May does he have some awkwardness or some throws directly to linebackers when there’s someone open right over him um so he right now it seems like he’s either the one or there’s a team that wants him to fall baby it’s the Vikings um so it I

Don’t think at all I just said you know Caleb Williams going to the Bears is as close to a guarantee as you can get just penciling in or writing in pen Drake May to the commanders at two I do not think that is guaranteed right now okay let’s

Let’s do this off off the Dome a little bit here let’s try to figure out what it would look like for the Vikings to get Drake May number 11 since this is your Buzz this is your uh yeah this was the talk talking to folks that JJ McCarthy

Could go in the top 10 so if we assume Caleb Williams goes number one and you think Jaden Jaden to to Washington to the commanders of Cliff kingsbery worked with Caleb Williams athleticism all that second best option makes sense makes sense I could also see Washington coming

In at the very last minute to Chicago and being like okay let’s give you a bunch of draft there’s still Washington until further notice there’s still Washington they still in the NFL PA survey completely crap the bed with a new owner so they’re gonna have to prove

That until they’re not uh but let’s just go with that all right then we have the Patriots and this is a team that could trade down potentially if they are not drafting a quarterback if they are are they a JJ McCarthy potential team because then they could draft him bring

In Andy Dalton or whatever and play play it out for a year Kobe brets available they could bring him back tank for a year without him starting and then plan to build up their roster for the next year that seems like not a bad plan if

The league is this high on JJ McCarthy yeah I mean again it it seems like it’s still somewhat early in the pre-draft process but we are here at the combine and we have seen higher ascents for quarterbacks that have happened fast like from March to April 2021 we were talking this time

About could the Vikings maybe pick Zack Wilson oh he could maybe go in the I think he’s going to go maybe higher than top 15 top 20 and he goes number two overall so for JJ McCarthy if he has a good workout um again I don’t think it

It’s going to move the needle a ton what he does here in Indie but if if the workout is on the better side or more closer to Elite athleticism than just above average Patriots at three certainly wouldn’t be totally bananas and that’s not to say that I think Drake

May there’s no chance he goes three but again I think for the longest time people like myself just thought oh it’s going to be Caleb Williams and then Drake May and then figure it out that I don’t think is the case Okay so if the Patriots do not draft a quarterback

Instead they say all right it’s Marvin Harris Marvin Harrison neighbors whatever uh a line lineman I’m sure there’s a lineman who’s high right you’re not high on the top lineman but that’s for a different podcast we don’t yeah yeah we’re not gonna talk L um left

Tackle is set that’s all we need to but uh all right so you’ve got the Chargers and you have the Cardinals and I believe the Cardinals this time on Twitter they are not to be believed on Twitter after the Josh Rosen incident but I actually believe them I think

Their plan is similar to the Lions where they’re sort of tanking around a franchise quarterback it’s bold but it worked Once Upon a Time for Atlanta with Matt Ryan where they had a down year kind of pop back up and it really worked for Detroit and it’s not that crazy of a

Thing to do around Kyler Murray is just get him a receiver build a team around him so I don’t think they’re trading Kyler and that’s where you land with the New York Giants so this could be McCarthy but if McCarthy does go that could also be Drake May and that would

Mean to me that if it’s realistic that four quarterbacks could go in the first six which would be freaking insane yeah that the Vikings have to trade up at that point if they want Drake May to go up and get in this scenario so this talking about just a buzz scenario they

Would have to make a trade with Arizona or the Los Angeles Chargers because they would have an idea that get over the Giants at yeah the Giants were going to do that which of course that’s better for the Vikings than having to go all the way up to three because that’s going

To cost an arm and a leg if it’s even two more draft spots that could be the difference in a second round pick or something like that a very valuable asset so I it’s probably I think the most likely that they would have to trade up for Drake may but just from one

Night in in Indie it seemed like the door kind of was propped open a little bit that like you’re saying at the beginning that Drake may could be the one that falls and we actually heard like two weeks ago Lance zerline on move the sticks podcast with Daniel Jeremiah

Said that he already heard pre- combine that Drake May was going to be the one who falls there’s always one um so but now I think talking to multiple people and I certainly respect the heck out of Lance but to hear it from a lot of people thinking like that could be the

Case the window is open a little bit where that’s dream scenario Drake May don’t have to do anything you just pick him at 11 so this doesn’t change my opinion that Drake May is the best possible quarterback for Kevin oconnell and the Vikings it only makes it a

Little more exciting and possible that he could be available to them because the best case scenario for the Vikings if they’re drafting a quarterback is clearly to just take them at 11 and I I guess I also got the sense and the people I guess you can call me a bad

Scout or maybe we’ll see as it plays out but from last night that people don’t View and then look I say people people I talk to there there’s thousands of people here but not viewing Bo Knicks as being a guy who you would take at number

11 and you haven’t seen it that way so explain this to me what is it about JJ McCarthy that has captivated the masses because I’ve watched it I’m not sure what I’m not seeing that’s supposed to be there when people talk to me about McCarthy and again would be all in on

That decision if the drafted him if Kevin oconnell likes him then I’m you know good I’m gonna say that a thousand times because I’m just telling you what I see and what I think but not like knowing what Kevin oconnell thinks or what they want to do uh but it’s a lot

Of you have to picture it you know those fans of The Golden Girls you ever watch Golden Girls oh yeah where uh the mother says picture it you know sis 1923 or whatever it’s like picture it McCarthy in the NFL doing things he never did in

College like well I’m maybe I’m not good at that like maybe I’m just not good at envisioning stuff that I didn’t really see with JJ McCarthy but you’ve been higher on him than me so you explain to me what it would be that your scouting friends are seeing with McCarthy that

Everyone is falling in love with that I am missing I think and this is not anything that I heard in particular but I think that there is when it comes to Scouts and coaches for as much as you and I can sit here and say hey like he

Has this weakness that weakness you don’t want to have any weaknesses going into the NFL or very minimal it seems like the NFL almost wants to develop a guy and say like oh I can fix that I and with JJ McCarthy I think and the combine

Will give us a little bit of a sense how close they are uh athletically and from a physical perspective McCarthy’s a little bigger and I think he’s a little bit more athletic with a little bit of a stronger arm than b Knicks and what I and this is going back to more Buzz

Stuff I was not in Mobile for this Senior Bowl all three of those people that I talked to in the league were oh my God Bon Nick’s Senior Bowl was horrible now I am someone I think the senior ball should matter about 0.01% because it is this throw and it’s

Your your evaluating practice with guys that have played with that that haven’t played with these guys practiced at all with the receivers running routes whatever but apparently that is the thing for teams like that’s kind of like we’re saying that that it’s it’s different for for me to talk about it

You to talk about it and teams and it was like it was so bad his footwork was terrible when he wasn’t in this perfectly insulated culture and system at Oregon he looked kind of out of sorts and that they were pointing back to other quarterbacks in the years’s past

That have not done well at the Senior Bowl guys like Jaylen Herz have done well that kind of boosted their stock or maybe showed that they were more NFL ready than the entire league thought um so I think those things J.J McCarthy being that moldable piece of clay and

That Bo Nicks had his opportunity going there to the Senior Bowl if if he Pat a Jaylen Herz and we’ve used that comparison very comfortable the footwork was good the accuracy was good had a strong week of practice and then played well in the game then we would be

Talking about him probably in this in terms of Buzz to be in that second tier middle of the first round but I think the fact that McCarthy wasn’t there actually did a lot for him because penck and bck really did not have great weeks in Mobile so let’s just say that uh Mr

McCarthy does go in the top 10 and so does Drake May and now we’re talking four quarterbacks out of the top 10 and the Minnesota Vikings they work their phones and they couldn’t make offers because the teams were like this is our guy just like what happened with Anthony

Richardson last year they made the calls but it didn’t end up playing out because that was the Colts guy and they were gonna take him the whole time uh that seems bad for the Vikings if they’re obviously in the market for a quarterback and I guess you could see

Why they keep talking about wanting Kirk Cousins back because if you envision this happening then you’re a little bit up a creek if you don’t think that bonick is that guy if you think he’s more of a second round quarterback if you think Michael penx is more of a late

First or second round type of player what would the Vikings do there let’s talk about not just the draft but also who’s playing quarterback at that point like well how they still need a draft one no matter what does this turn into try to get Jimmy Garoppolo here

Because he’s played in this type of system before is I mean I say that but the systems are so complicated now they’re not just hey run the boots with Gary kubak it’s like there’s a lot of intricacies to it but he’s run a Kyle shanan offense to the Super Bowl uh so

You look at him do you look you know Sam darnold’s name is coming out Baker Mayfield do you all of a sudden sort of back up a Brinks truck for him for a couple of years because you’re gonna you’re not going to be 100% sure though when you make this decision because

Baker Mayfield is going to be a free agent in March and then you draft then but if but if they come out of here thinking we’re not going to be able to get these guys then they might have to make a phone call to Baker Mayfield you

Need a real starter you couldn’t just be like oh let’s just bring in jacobe brassette and win six games I don’t think that that’s their mentality and then so give me a give me a pairing give me a if McCarthy was off the board and May and Williams like how how do they

And Daniels who do they at quarterback in that room for next year well I think the scheme fit does certainly make sense with Jimmy Garoppolo with Sam darnold to be that hey like we’ve seen you play at a reasonable level in this system but we don’t expect you to be the guy forever

But with the talent around you and and with Kevin oconnell and and Josh MCC a great coaching staff um to maybe win 10 games and get into the playoffs win nine games go nine and eight sneak into the playoffs and and again like I was saying

That they are not a tanking regime where they’re like let’s just tank and and and be you know and look ahead to next year one year prior to that um so those two that you brought up would make sense the one other name because I am more of a

Draft guy Spencer Rattler from South Carolina I if if they’re just out on penck they don’t think he’s mobile enough or he goes earlier than they pick in the second round whatever the case may be penck or Spencer rler to me is someone that at 19 years old at was at

At Oklahoma really cemented himself or I guess he seemingly cemented himself as this guy’s going to be maybe the first overall pick whenever he comes out regresses at Oklahoma goes to South Carolina and although South Carolina’s teams were not very good I thought the last two years he was Rock Solid and he

Showed those whoa that was a fade away 40 yards down the field there were some a lot of sacks his pressure to sack rate was right around Jaden Daniels the offensive line was not very good so he he has some athleticism but he’s not going to elude sacks like Patrick

Mahomes he’s someone that I think has the mobility is well experienced at the college level can be the booty action guy and you’re picking him third round probably I mean depending on on how well his workout is but I think he’s kind of a a Darkhorse name that could rise up

The boards someone that played a lot of football through a a ton of BigTime throws early in his college career at 19 years old and then kind of did that later at South Carolina in the SEC Spencer rler has sort of been the draft analyst’s quarterback like people that

Is I’m on the train right and his Senior Bowl where Rick Spielman who does a podcast with CBS Sports he mentioned with Ryan Wilson that he thought Rattler might have been the best quarterback there in the way that he performed which I I know that you don’t weigh it heavily

But it seems his NFL does the NFL definitely does that’s their first look it’s their first impression it matters the most famously Dave gettelman saw two seconds of Daniel Jones or something and decided he was the guy or whatever um which was the kind of the old school

Scout way of doing it but there’s still that ingrained of like this is my first thought on that guy and I guess if you were asking if the if the Vikings are not super high on pennx would you rather them take him in the second or Rattler it’s obviously Rattler because he even

Now I like penck still but Rattler would be the younger higher ceiling not as much injury and some who’s moldable for Kevin oconnell I’m never a big believer in the second rounder the third rounder because history is just not very kind to those people I also think that despite

Your Buzz I still just can’t see four quarterbacks in the top 10 it be pretty surprising too much uh I love it for a scenario to talk about but I just don’t I just don’t see it and I keep wondering like does somebody want Drake May to

Drop like who wants drop him to drop because it’s just been so solidified for so long that he was this Elite Prospect and then all of a sudden you get here and then well it’s weird how that happens right every year yeah right may maybe he’s not but let’s go down that

Road a little F farther though uh as far as the I mean free agents and options I would say baker Mayfield is the best option to do that on a short contract that they could get out of a Gino Smith type of deal where you could be

Legitimately good with him on offense he just got done with a very good season throwing to Great receivers and he’d be doing that again if you weren’t looking to spend the money though I’m out on the jimmmy Garoppolo idea he just is too hurt for me uh as far as him actually as

A quarterback I mean he’s had a lot of success you would sign him and then suddenly be like oh we’re back to where we were because he’s hurt he’s gonna have a hip injury or something like it’s just gonna happen he he we were joking about you know Jaden Daniels getting

Himself hurt but Jimmy Garoppo’s done that for his whole career it has to be of that Baker Mayfield level or I guess someone like darnold but I don’t even love that idea unless it’s paired with someone I think is going to be the future quarterback you could feel a

Little bit up a creek but what would they be doing at number 11 in that case if there were four quarterbacks going at the top and the league was this high on McCarthy okay so I’ll tell you a name and and you tell me if he’s someone that

Or the position makes sense Byron Murphy from Texas he to me is should be the first interior defensive linan off the board and to me when it comes to De interior defensive lineman they need to be like super explosive can get you 40 to 60 or 70

Pressures six to 12 sacks like anyone else any big body I mean nothing against Jordan Davis but I thought that pick two years ago like by The Eagles was a weird one because he was and and I know he tested through the roof but he was so big he’s had some conditioning weight

Problems being in the NFL can’t play all the time I want my guy to be Ed Oliver to Aaron Donald somewhere in that range and to me Byron Murphy on film The explosiveness the production was there at a big time time school at Texas um

And it feels like to me it’s like I’m in my head trying to think what defensive positions do the Vikings need and I think it’s a lot of them and and interior of the defensive line you could say oh like the Run stopping might need

To be better but you tell me like would that make sense um in terms of what they need because I think he’s a premier Prospect of that spot uh if you told me that they should go out this offseason and get three defensive tackles I would

Say yes because they have just been so empty at that position for so long and when they had their best defenses lynval Joseph was there just annihilating people in the middle right Sheree Floyd had he stayed healthy would have probably had a really good career yeah

True just that you know the injuries got him but he was super talented he was a problem in 2015 for a defense that was Elite and won the division that year and that’s what you’re looking for again because they just have not been able to create any pressure interior pressure

And and the way I look at interior pressure is and I know that there have been some statistics iCal studies on it and so forth and more fumbles come from The Edge rushers so when you look at EPA per play or whatever the pressures from The Edge are probably causing more

Problems and sacks from The Edge are causing more problems but from a quarterback’s perspective I asked Nick Mullins about this one time I was like what’s the difference between Edge and interior pressure he’s like Edge pressure you can step out of like you step up in the pocket right and that

Doesn’t mean miles Garrett won’t kill you sometimes but if let’s just say pressure though and not a sack you can step up in the pocket away from Edge pressure there is no answer for interior pressure no and there are 50 Edge rushers who are good there are eight

Interior rushers who are good and so team’s game plan the hell out of those defensive ends and sometimes they still lose but it’s always part of every week’s game plan is like oh this week we play Max Crosby this week we play Miles Garett this week we play TJ Watt and so

They know how to deal with these players they have plans for them I don’t know that there is a plan for an interior rusher of this Talent the Vikings put in last year CJ Ham on third down and long and this was an interesting little

Wrinkle but I I mean I liked it of course and he would block help the guards because they were sending so much pressure on the interior that’s where their weakness was very clever most teams are not putting their fullback in on Third and 10 to block interior so

It’s just your guys versus our guys and if you can win in that scenario you crush them and also the I mean the run defense has been less than spectacular uh in recent years I mean I just think this is such a big need and probably the most under appreciated value position in

The entire league yeah and let’s broaden this out a little bit this is kind of like the inverse conversation of what we’ve had that I kind of borrowed it from you a few years ago I kind of was thinking about it a lot that that you said that you believed wide receiver was

The second most valuable position I’m 100% of that belief but then I also factor in oh but there there’s also like a million awesome wide receivers it’s the inverse because like you said there’s just not a lot of quality interior pass rushers you can get quality run Stoppers third round fourth

Round fifth round like even late into day three big bodies that can eat blockers that’s not what I mean I mean true differen makers on the inside so for as much as someone listening or watching would say oh defensive tackle like it’s not that valuable of a

Position because the guys like Nick Bosa and Max Crosby and TJ watt have G so much attention and rightfully so there’s a lot of them like every team has at least like one stud outside rusher to be able to maybe get the first interior defense linan in the class and one that

I truly believe is Will warrant a a top 11 overall pick in this case in Byron Murphy it wouldn’t be the best case scenario that would be quarterback obviously and just picking the one that that the GM and Kevin okell like the most but that would be a good fallback

Option to say look like it didn’t work out four quarterbacks went in front of us but we got someone at maybe by the book not the most valuable position but one that is very scarce to find someone who can be that Difference Maker inside on the defensive line and let me ask you

One more question for this podcast we’ll do one more from Indie uh about you know more Buzz that we’ll pick up on tonight and more dudes of what’s going on but the defensive lineman talked today and I’m very curious about who might be available early in the second round

Where the Vikings are 42 if they are to draft quarterback in the first or even if they went to defensive linemen not crazy At All by by any means who intrigues you like who would you look at and say you know what if you’re going second round you’re looking for

Brian Flores to mold someone into a beast take a look at X Y or Z okay there’s three guys that I that I’ll name here uh the first one very unique interesting Braden fisky from Florida State okay like six he had a great senior he’s

A big senior bow guy and that’s again I I don’t Factor it in myself but I I realize I have to a little more in terms of when guys are going to be picked because The N he destroyed the Senior Bowl destroyed the Senior Bowl practices

And the game he’s interesting and I say that because he’s like I forgot what his exact numbers were but like 65 just under two he’s like 295 and he has like the shortest he has like 31inch arms so it’s like what the hell but on film Twitchy he he has all

Of those elements not to the level of Byron Murphy but Twitchy the get off is there can sustain speed to the quarterback a lot of times guys along like the defensive line they get out of their stance in a hurry and then it just like stalls and it’s like okay it was

Just your burst and then that’s not it fisky can get out of his stance in a hurry and then continue into the back field the pass rush moves are there and I think because of his shorter arms and then he’s a kind of a late bloomer he was at Western Michigan and transferred

To Florida State um a little older he’s probably going to be available at at 42 um Michael Hall from Ohio State to me is like the Byron Murphy light in this class that if you can’t get Byron Murphy and you want that quote unquote undersized interior pass rusher and I

Don’t really even think at 290 you’re undersized Anymore Michael Hall from Ohio State watches film like a lot of Ohio State guys whether it’s wide receiver or corner or defensive line very well coached the pass rush moves are there the first step quickness a lot of what I just said about fisky is

Certainly there and then one other that I think will probably go in the first round but he he could be there in the early stages of the second Darius Robinson from Missouri he’s the other one similarly size a little bit lighter like 65 286 is he tween he he’s a little

Tweener which that was a phrase that was used way back like oh is he a 3 four outside linebacker or a 4-3 we don’t really get that as much and he I think most people will have him as an edge but he is like that the The Scouting phrase

Like he’s the first first guy off the bus like he is 65 286 with like zero% body fat same and yes Matt looks very similar to Darius Robinson um if you wanted to bulk him up to like 295 300 he can play inside the arms he’s got Vines

For arms like not like Braden fisky who’s got 31 inch arms I don’t remember what Robinson’s exact measurements were but 34 35 inch arms and the pass rush moves are there the athleticism is there he’s someone where Brian Flores you said like a plug him in and use him

Everywhere that would be Darius Robinson where again way crazier things have happened where seems like he’ll probably go late in the first but if he was there at you know 38 39 and they had to trade like an extra six to move up a couple

Spots to get him he would be really an interesting piece for Brian Flores to be able to mold up front on the defense all right here’s what we’ll do tomorrow we’ll talk about some more buzz buzz so you gotta go out tonight okay and then we’ll talk about some more dudes that

The Vikings should be keeping their eyes on in case of XY and Z scenario CBS Sports Chris trap Paso draft analyst and me so here we are Indie we’ll catch you next time football football