Joe Ogilvie with Gary Williams

Joe Ogilvie was a PGA Tour member from 1999-2014. He contributed as a member of the player advisory council and always remained well versed on the business of the PGA Tour. Today he works for Wallace Capital Management and has a thorough understanding of the world of private equity. He penned an open letter last fall to the members of the PGA Tour regarding their current state and the road ahead. This is a wide-ranging conversation on the new private equity deal with the Strategic Sports Group, what’s next with the Private Investment Fund (PIF) of Saudi Arabia, the value of competition, Tiger Woods, Rory McIlroy, and a global schedule. It’s all here in this conversation with Gary Williams.

Welcome into this five clubs conversation guy’s going to join me is very well versed in the inner workings of the PGA Tour but also understanding the mindset of the people who just invested in the PGA Tour I’m talking about Joe Ogie played on the PGA tour

For 15 years he is now in wealth management so what exactly is going on well he pinned an open letter to the membership last fall what’s his perspective on this Investment Group what it means for the future investment of the public investment fund of Saudi

Arabia and who are and what are the most important assets that the PGA Tour owns all of that and a whole lot more coming up right Now I think this is only a grip it’s only my sole connection to this it’s only in my hands on every single shot it’s an extra 2 yards of carry when it matters most yeah only a grip mine are only Golf Pride respect the grip and with that we

Welcome in the Blue Devil Himself he actually doesn’t look bad considering his Devils uh took one on the chin they LED for all of 16 seconds in Chapel Hill last weekend isn’t that a nice way to bring you in Joe yeah yeah you you brought the high heat straight off the bat

Um but we’ll we will uh we’ll see what happens in Cameron on March 6th absolutely there’s nothing like it and I will be in the building well there’s not you know is somebody like yourself who went to Duke I I was talking you know just to to start off as an aside you

Know these things are so precious like you know as somebody who went there were were you in the building for all four years when you were there for Carolina Duke for Carolina Duke I think I missed one we may have had a tournament a golf tournament over one of those but yeah I

I camped out my freshman year and then luckily we had recruits for two of the two of the next three years so when you have a recruit you get to you get to sit under the hoop and and do that thing but uh no it’s it’s it’s fantastic if you’re

A Bas if you’re a college basketball fan it doesn’t get much better than dude Carolina no it it doesn’t let me um there there’s so many directions that we can go and I’m going to try to keep this and not make it too too much of a a

Serpent tining from one direction to the next but I know I can I can talk to you ask you about virtually everything as it pertains to the PGA Tour let let me start with with the deal itself uh strategic Sports Group if you look at the Cadre of of people who are involved

In this Investment Group it’s like the lineup of the 1927 Yankees It’s wildly impressive um what is the most encouraging thing of what you know uh with respect to this deal as it pertains to the membership of which you were a part of uh for many many years yeah I think

That I mean stepping taking a step back I mean when when when private equity and a bunch of the different groups expressed interest I mean the the lineup of people I mean it was really a who’s who in in in American Business and I mean not g to say everybody in American

Business was was inquiring but I I think 65% of the of the American Business Leaders were probably on one side of the deal from the friends of Golf Group to the 8coin group to Liberty Media to strategic Sports so that was that was that’s encouraging me people

See the value in the PGA Tour um strategic Sports I think the board was most comfortable with them closing um but every one of these groups could have brought billions of dollars to the table that was not a problem Capital was not was not the issue

I think the board and I wasn’t in the board rooms but I think they were they were comfortable with it I mean Jay Monahan obviously has a long-term uh he used to work for Family Sports um Sam Kennedy who’s going to be on the PJ tour Enterprises board his sister works at

The PJ tour um so there was a lot of uh Mark flarey who’s on the board of the PGA Tour was a mentor to Sam Kennedy um and and to jmon hand so there was a the board of the PJ tour is very comfortable with stre especially in the independent side

Um and they they’re they’re really smart guys they they haven’t really dug under the hood as far as I know um the T the PJ tour was very very late in getting them all types of data and all all the financials and things like that but

Um look the PGA tour players are going to have equity in this thing I hope and people think that I’m totally naive in saying this I hope it becomes an owner mentality uh for the tour players because if they do that Gary I think it solves a lot of the problems that’s

Currently happening in the game and and by doing that if I own something I want that product to be as best as it can possibly be and in golf to have a great product well you need great fans number one I mean the players are players are important but the

Fans are incredibly important um so they need to feel comfortable but I think if you’re if you’re an owner you you want the best players in the world playing on the PGA tour more often and you know I think it’ll take time to get over that hump but hopefully as

These guys think of themselves and owners and the owners and the equity gets doled out I think you’ll start to see hopefully some of this pain um hopefully it’ll subside why are the fans in golf so important is it because they support the product or because they support the products that support the

Product well I think I think two things number one I think they’re the best I mean you think about it they’re the most dedicated fans in any sport and what I mean by that is if you’re a general admission buyer of a ticket on the PGA

Tour you’re driving from your home to a parking lot that’s probably 15 or 20 minutes away from the venue now think about that we’re the only sport that has that so you you go 20 minutes away and then you take a shuttle and then you get

Dropped off and then you go in I mean so by the time you leave your house it’s probably an hour an hour and 15 minutes by the time you actually get to watch golf and they’re coming in by the thousands I mean that’s a you know everybody talks about the

Fans need you know we got to re-engage the fans I mean part of it is they’re they should be treated as their guests in our venues I mean they they really do they they’ve they’ve come and we shouldn’t charge them an arm and a leg for you know Cokes and Waters and beer

And everything else we should they we should it should be almost like you you’re treating a guest I mean the Masters does it the best right the $150 pimo cheese sandwiches and it cost you an arm and a leg to get in there but once you’re in um I mean I don’t charge

You for parking they you just feel like oh my gosh they’re not taking advantage of me even the even the merch which they could charge I mean they have pricing power they can charge whatever they want but so that’s what I mean by the fan and

Then the more fans you have it enhances the the viewer experience on TV and on the digital because it looks like a big it feels like a bigness when you have people lined in the fairways and you have when you have Roars and everything else I mean that enhances and by the way

That’s that’s free to you if you’re the PGA Tour or you’re the host organization getting a a person that’s going to enhance the viewership for the the people at home that that’s a not only is it free they’re actually paying to help you so that’s what I mean by the fan is

Just incredibly important and um I I hope in all of this they recognize that I I hope they recognize that that is that is an incredibly valuable person to um treat well no you’re right you you know it’s not it’s not a a reach at all

That the golf fan sees less of the actual product than football fans basketball fans Baseball fans when you sit in your seat at those other sports it’s right in front of you the the effort made one to get on the property of a golf tournament then to decide okay

I’m going to follow this group or I’m going to sit in these stands um that’s why you know I was saying about when you get there you know fans may watch I don’t know in total 26 minutes that’s just an arbitrary number of golf shots as opposed to a three-hour football game

Where look you may me spend some time at the at the site level that’s where I’m I’m I’m getting back to this whole idea of you know what are they buying into they’re buying into the Association The Fortune 100 Fortune 50 whatever Automotive sector Health Care Financial

Um you know it’s it is a murderer’s row again of of who is investing in the game of golf and SSG is well aware of that so when they when they see that and they see all you know whether it’s Wells Fargo um you know who knows on Down the

Line who’s going to replace Wells Fargo and Charlotte um what are they seeing as the most valuable assets of the tour what are they seeing and going that can be monetized Way Beyond what its current value or the revenue it’s currently producing what are the best assets that the tour is providing to

SSG well I think it’s the game I think it’s a game itself in the professional game itself right I mean the PJ tour is the best tour in the world um I don’t think that that’s debatable um there it’s also a scarcity value right Gary I mean you know the NBA

Has 30 odd teams and each one of those teams I mean Sports has always been priced like art um it’s not you don’t do a discounted cash flow statement to find the value of the PGA Tour you you look at it as like look it’s it’s pretty good

Now the tour schedule is very bloated um they will reduce tournaments there is zero doubt about that um they will they will make scarcity the the Lynch pin of this thing so they’ll be you know let’s call it 35 events as opposed to 47 events or something like that they will um they

See you know I think at headquarters it was it’s probably been undermanaged for the better part of 10 years um it’s gotten a little bloated so they’ll they’ll put controls in on that they’ll um they’ll invest in the digital product they’ll look at the tournaments as you

Know some of these tournaments are kind of they’ve they’ve also been undermanaged I mean um I think the tour is going to make you know they’re changing the Palm Beach tournament right now um it’s going to go from basically breaking even to almost making four or five million do um

For instance I think that there’s a lot of things that they can do on the international side and you know we can get into piff and and how that all works but you know as as the really smart thing the tour did and the players did

Was is to make it a calendar year schedule and so now you’ve got a January 5th let’s call it to September 1st schedule I mean everybody every league has a defined has a defined season and that’s kind of the PGA Tour season now and so you’ve got September 1st to December

20th to do something on the international side so there’s some things that they can do there but I mean I think that this will this is a scarcity investment and it’s a I mean they’re buying the Mona Lisa of golf it’s what they’re doing that’s what they’re investing in the um get very

Very few times you get a chance to invest at the league level and that’s what that’s what they’re doing the um it’s interesting what you said about these events and I want to get to something that you wrote in your open letter that you wrote T the tour

Membership last fall about looking at these events quote as as franchises but let let me follow on what you said about the number of events if if if the number of events is lesson which I support that I think all sports require us to need

Them to want them to to miss them um and and we we the 800lb Guerilla we have to miss more than any other which is the National Football League uh it’s getting ready to pull the curtain you know this weekend um and then you know we’ll we’ll

Die lousy and we’ll watch every single report from training camp starting in July in the dead of Summer um and and they have they have a death grip on our Consciousness they they do but if you lower the number of tournaments and you’re already limiting playing opportun

Ities for instance the NFL let’s just go 53 men 32 teams you go the National Basketball Association 15 members of a roster 30 franchises same thing baseball 25man rosters these guys as you know God there’s so many guys who can play I mean really really play and if you reduce

This down to what less opportunity and less number of players in the field you got to have some real churn don’t you yeah yeah you do um and I think that’s the that’s the hard thing I mean I I you know I read a lot in the offseason and

Uh Ryan’s armor you know refer to himself and his ill because the mules and you know I was a mule to a certain extent and um you know us us mules we kind of just want to know what the what the game what the parameters are and we’ll go figure out

How to how to work that we’ll finish top one we’ll figure out how to finished top 125 but give me a give me a fair shot right and so when you went to a calendar year schedule which was really smart and but then at the same time you went to a

Signature series the signature series events where you cut basically seven tournaments from 144 to 100 well 120 man to 144 man Fields down to you know 75 or 80 you eliminated a giant amount of um playing opportunities and what what they what they needed to do but they for

Whatever reason they didn’t do it is they needed to reduce the amount of fully exempt players right I mean they needed to go to 110 or 100 and then you let all those guys you say look if you’re if you’re at top 100 on the PGA tour that’s an incredible

Achievement then you you you you let the signature series events be 120 people and then maybe maybe you have four without cuts or something like that I mean you’re you’re kind of recreating the wgc’s to a certain extent um but they didn’t do that they’re going to do

That next year in fact they added an opposite field event and I get why they did it but you know eventually um I think in 20126 is when is the year that you’re going to see a lot of change you’ll see and and you’re you’re saying

That based on what you think is that this deal and whatever subsequent deal gets done with potentially the public investment fund uh justice department all that the 2026 is kind of Dayton in terms of we’re going to co-op space there’s going we’re going to see these guys playing against

Each other and whatever they’re going to be rebranded at is is that what you’re talking about yeah because if you think if you think through it um we already said that the top 125 guys on the FedEx Cup are going to keep their cards this

Year so you can’t I don’t think you can go retroactive retroactively change that so even if you do a deal with piff and even if there’s a way for the guys that left to come back there aren’t any spots right I mean there’s just there’s just there’s only so many there’s a finite

Number of opportunities right so that’s going to get pushed to 2026 I don’t know what that looks like at all um but 2026 is when you’re going to see some changes and you’re probably going to see a reduction in the schedule and you’re going to

See you know you’ll be able to do some partnership with with the DP World Tour and if I’m assuming you’ll probably do something with the piff um internationally from September 1st to the to the 20th but you know those are those are all that’ll be done that’ll be

Done is probably talked about I mean strategic Sports was was in Saudi Arabia with Jay um when was that two weeks ago so they they have they’re talking um they’re talking so we’ll we’ll see what we’ll see what ultimately happens Joe you mentioned the world golf championship series and when that was

When that was constructed you know late 90s 1999 um and it was no cut events um small Fields you were insulating and really wrapping Kevlar around you know the top 15 top 20 I I know that a couple players like figured out like okay if I

Can get in this you know and by virtue of having four rounds these these the deep end of the pool um I’m I’m getting fortified with all these world ranking points I have no problem with the best players getting protected as much as possible like these signature series events and the points

Available to them and it’s elevated to that every sport protects their Stars this is the way they’re doing it the National Football League you can’t hit a quarterback and LeBron James and and Steph are probably not getting foul called on them late in the game because

They drive the product so I I get all that but if you limit let’s say these signature series events to less than a 100 come on you you are you are flying in the face of what you have projected yourself to be which is the strongest

Deepest tour in the world and we all we got to do Joe is look at the month of January and the guys who are capable of jumping up and winning not just events that are not signature series events how do you kind of protect the best but give opport

To the mules which by the way is one of the great terms um yeah ever coined not surprising Ryan armor you know he’s an Ohio guy great guy um out of out of kin state but uh no it’s one of the great things I look I think that one thing

About the feedex cup and the wgc’s and everything else they they they changed I mean when they announced the it was designated events and then it was Signature Series um I said look it’ll be one thing we know is that they will be changed and iterated over over and over and over

Again and you know anyone that did the math in September could see like we were going to have a playing a playing problem with Q school and some of the uh corn fairy guys I mean they just weren’t going to get in I mean very few guys are

Getting in this week and I think there’s 17 full Fe full point events that a rookie could play um might be 18 but I think it’s 17 they’re not in the PLAYERS Championship so I mean that’s a that’s a that’s a small small schedule um and

Once you get to the memorial you’re only in I mean from the end of May to um to the first playoff event you’re you’re only playing six events um that’s not a big schedule and two of those events are are opposite field events with I think

Only um 300 points to the winner so I mean you you are you are at a major major league deficit and so that’s where I say that you know they’re going to have to go to fewer cards um and then you know with the signature series events and with the players getting

Equity I think that’s the carrot right you just say look you guys are getting some you guys are going to get equity and it should be significant and we’re going to make these events as as good as they can possibly be and I don’t think

That that is a 75 person event but may maybe and I said this too look let let Jack and tiger in Arnold’s tournament let them let them be whatever they want to to be yeah um they’re they they have the gravit they deserve to however they

See fit if tiger wants a 70 man field if Jack wants 120 man field if if Arnold Sam Saunders and his family want a whatever 156 man field Arnold’s an every man um let them do that and then I think the signature series events it makes too

Much sense to me that every one of if you’re a city that has a PGA Tour event um it makes sense that you deserve ve the best players in the world to come to your city once every three years or once every four years whatever that Roa

Is I mean Major League Baseball does it with the All-Star Game and they do it with the Super Bowl it’s like look you’ve supported us you built a new stadium great you’re getting a Super Bowl in you know seven years after the new stadium or whatever we should be

Doing that in golf I mean the best players in the world should be going to Molen Illinois and support John Deere the best players in the world should be going to Detroit once every three years they should be going to Pal Springs or or or where ever um I just think that

That makes too much sense so they’ll they’ll be changed um and venues will be changed I think you’re going to have more more tournaments probably go maybe go by you know two cities um as opposed to just one home I’m not saying that’s going to happen

Every week but I think you’ll see that Joe let me just let let’s talk about something I know pretty well and you played the Wells Fargo for years um when it was built and born it was like okay this is the way it’s supposed to be and

And from the you know the two player AMS on a Wednesday uh to all the trappings that that you could possibly have all the Benny’s you know private planes for for wives up to the mountains down to the beach booze cruises for the W whatever they did it all but but beyond

That and more importantly the golf course the field and here we are at the end of the road for this sponsor and I Know It On on good authority that the tour turned away north of 20 million a year from a bellweather sponsor in a market that has been money for them

Sponsorship fan participation you name it and by the way their current business model is for less than half of that based on 156 person Field concessions two t starts split T’s I mean and now you’re going to a Signature Series event and you’re and you’re figuring out like

Okay you know we’re going to do this we’re going to offer you 20x for four or five years maybe there was an option here I don’t know and the tourist says no really yeah so if if um if you go to Hermes um you can buy a Birkin bag for

$112,000 or whatever the number is which I I have not done for my wife um but if I bought that Birkin bag for $112,000 I could go sell it for 20 almost immediately arese has the most pricing power of any retailer in the world I mean they don’t they literally burn if

They sell too much of something they they burn the rest because they don’t want to be for the masses and I and I and I use that analogy because you know okay we might be able to get more money from a different sponsor but we have a longtime

Partner we were only a few million dollars apart and that’s let’s call it 12 million over six years and the biggest disappointment for me Gary in that negotiation was we were willing to flush a partner for 12 million over six years or whatever the number is but we haven’t

Cut one dime in expenses in Pon aidra and that is a bloated bloated organization and we”ve got a lot lot of great people in that organization but I mean we’re willing to to pun our to pun our partners but we’re not willing to look ourselves in the

Mirror and say we need to change and that’s that’s a bit that’s where I that’s a big disappointment for me because if you talk to people inside the the organization I mean we have whole divisions that don’t talk to one another and we have people that like I don’t

Know what they do um and these this is not coming from it’s coming from inside the organization people talking to me and talking to others talking to strategic sports groups um so that’s the biggest thing I mean live golf was a gift upon aidra Beach and yeah they haven’t

Changed um so that’s that’s that’s been that’s been a disappointment when you were when you were playing you know people knew that you had a curious mind and that you you were not just just out there uh trying to do the best you could in addition to trying to do uh the best

You could week in and week out you you took an interest in the governance and and the the business of what was going on at that time what did what made the most sense in terms of what the PGA Tour owned and what made the least amount of

Sense yeah I mean I don’t know that so so when I was on the board it was a different time right we had tiger he was in the peak of his powers um and we didn’t have any we had no competitors I mean literally we had no competitors and

So you could run the organization a little bit you could run a bloated organization you could run with opposite field events by the way I was an opposite field guy so I I benefited from the bloat but there was no place for these guys to go I mean tiger couldn’t

Say you know what I’m going to go play the European tour and do something else there was no no nobody was going to offer him the same amount of from a I mean it’s United States of America it’s the biggest economy in the world it’s the biggest Global stage no one could no

One could remotely um offer him the same economic package whether it was tiger or Phil or or DJ or anybody um so that was a hard that’s a hard to say what we owned that we didn’t have to own I mean I make an argument I mean look Austin Austin

Was the match play did almost 26 ion dollar last year and it left um Austin country clubs sort of like this there was some the push and pull so owning a venue I kind of understand that it’s not a it’s not it’s not a great business to

Own a venue and it’s a lot of capital but I think there’s ways to partner with you know local organizations and local local owners of golf courses and country clubs where maybe you you you have an equity stake but um I mean I think now what they’ll probably I think the

International side of the President’s Cup is definitely something that they that’ll be monetized I mean it makes PJ tour owns both sides of that your the riter cup is really really good because Europe controls one side and the PJ to or the PJ of America controls the other

I think the international side of the President’s Cup it also will alleviate that throny issue of what to do with the joei neans of the world and the cam Smiths of the world and those guys who clearly should be on that team on the international side but don’t qualify

Right now so I think that gets monetized um I think that the DP World Store I mean I just I don’t I don’t know what they’ll do but I think you’ll see I think you’ll see assets kind of shed and what you want to do when you own assets

Is you want to say okay is there someone that’s a better owner than I am and I think the international side of the presence cup is one one instance where you can point to say Yeah in an international side would be a better owner than the PGA Tour owning both

Sides and you get with Mike and you Mike Weir and you get with Ernie Ells and you get with Trevor Elman and you get with these guys and say hey look what do you think this is what this is how we think about it but you guys are the you guys

Built this you guys built this event we want we want you to have input on it but this is what we’re thinking do you guys think this is a good idea and I think then then you get into those conversations I I look at like the the

The the TPC Network um it’s high times for and operators I understand that um I I’ve always felt that first of all that that is a meat grinder of a business um and I don’t necessarily think it makes complete sense for for the membership of the PGA Tour to be owning an operating

Dozens and dozens of facilities I I would honestly I’d shop them um it’s it’s top of the market right now um the other thing is and I’m not I’m not I’m not saying hey look you should shed this shed that I think it’s great that PJ tour Champions exists and these other

These other developmental tours as well those are cost Centers do you think the SSG is going to take a hard look at at these things that are are one’s nostalgic the other several are develop developmental uh to to ease the the financial burden of a lot of this

Stuff well I I think that there it would be naive to think that private Equity is not going to come in and take a sharp pencil and and take a look at everything um one thing about the champions tour I’ll say this is that um there’s a guy named Woods that is GNA

Turn 50 in two years so you know um it it and Joe that’s and look that’s a GameChanger and I’m not being hyperbolic here his participation will outrate regular tour events I’m not joking it will no and that and that’s right and and Tiger’s tiger probably understand I

Mean he no he doesn’t probably he understands that so what does his schedule look like and how many does he want to play what does he want to do and then you look at it and say you know okay this I mean I’ve always thought that you talk about a great team concept

The champions tour these guys are the best corporate corporate Representatives we have in the game right and and I mean who’s to say that you shouldn’t have a team maril Lynch and a team Goldman Sachs and a team AT&T team Verizon or whatever and have it the greatest

Corporate kind of corporate team event you you know with the their customers walking inside the ropes with everybody wearing the hats and all that stuff you can you can make the the champions tour you can make it work economically I mean I think it they probably lost of

Him because of him but I also think you can do it you got to change the you got to change the you got to you got to change change the fundamental um tournament and what that looks like but you can you can make that work um I’m I’m convinced of it it might

Be team it might be whatever but you can make the champions tour work it’s going to look different but you can make it work um and and believe me it’ll it’ll probably be changed I mean SSG will not you do not spend a billion five and then spend another billion five without

Taking cost and without looking at everything that’s a money loser you are going to change it fundamentally and I think that I think everyone has to really understand that um that that will come with time but and we’re in the honeymoon phase the honeymoon phase is always you know um

Always fun but it’ll it’ll get it’ll change and um you know Champions Tour will be that that’ll be looked at I’m sure but those guys I I am confident that you can make that work um change is always difficult but you can make the champions tour work you

Might have to lower the age you might have to do a couple different things um and I think there’s ways to protect the Ben khaws of the world who are infinitely more valuable than the Joe ogies of the world and corporations want to talk to Ben khaw and Joe OG is a nice

Guy you know and so you you you have to you have to figure out ways to you know marry that maybe in a team event maybe it’s a scramble um maybe it’s a you know two man scrambles and you have six people on a team and you have some so

You can do it and you can do it corn fairy tour I think is I think is very it’s AAA baseball right you need a farm club and you need you need to educate these guys on how to travel and everything else we have a ton of our

Members that came through the corn fairy system and it’s really really good and I think when you you know let’s say if opposite field events are no longer with this there’s an opportunity to make corn faery tour you know super tournaments where you win one of those and maybe you

Graduate straight to the PGA Tour I mean once a guy has his card on the corn fairy tour does it help him to play another 15 or 20 Events maybe you have you know every 10 tournaments you have four guys graduate up to the PGA tour in

Season or something like that I mean I think there’s I think there’s ways to do this that again competition allows you to do certain things that you couldn’t do before and but to your point Latin American tour Canadian tour used to have the Asian tour you know some of that

Some of that is you know let let somebody let somebody really concentrate and try to make it the best they can be with with with looking at that with a um you know be fanatical with those tours and maybe they we give them something then graduates get the the nation or the

Corn fairy tour but um maybe we don’t own and operate him that makes that makes sense and I I I I I I like the idea of of graduating based on you know the the the performance of of winning and and we’ve had different incarnations of of it started as a battlefield

Promotion and then that wasn’t good branding anymore and then you know they they made it something else but if you do that you’re already we already know that it’s challenging in to find starts for existing members so we are we are headed down this path of a two-tier

System which is not a it’s not altogether a Bad Thing what’s the most effective way to sell a two-tier system which exists already but it’s becoming even more crystal clear that there are these events and there are these events yeah so I I think if you wrote if we’re

Talking the signature series if we’re just talk the PG yeah and if you rotate the signature series events I think you mitigate some of that because everybody everybody gets a bite at the Apple well how does that contract look if you’re if you’re a signature series event one year

And you’re not for two more yeah well it it works just like any other contract I mean you you you can let’s say let’s say the number you want to get to is 40 million and for three years or or whatever the number is you know 12

12 uh 16 you know whatever the I mean those are those numbers might be low but um you you can get that I don’t I don’t think that that’s a big deal that that’s just contract law and you can get with your partners and you’re you’re giving them something every three years that

All of a sudden it’s boom okay this is great um now some people would argue that okay you’ve cheapened my other two years but I don’t I don’t know if that’s I don’t know if that’s true or not um because once you go to a calendar year schedule

Again this is the first year where if you had a PJ tour card and you told me where you finished on the money list I could tell you your schedule I I didn’t have to ask you are you taking this off or this off you’re not because you have to play every

Single week you have to play the 500 Point events if you finished 78th on the money list or 78th on the FedEx Cup points last year you have to play them you can’t take them off because you’re only going to get in I think a guy who

Finished 78th is going to get in 19 tournaments this year that are full points I don’t I don’t know what the Genesis Scottish open is because I don’t I don’t know the eligibility I forget what the eligibility is because you’ve got the DP World Tour taking some spots

And you’ve got all that kind of stuff so but I know your schedule so the fields this year are going to be better and you’re also going to I’m assuming I don’t know this no one’s talked about it but I’m just you know when you start thinking through what’s

Going to happen is as you reduce the number number of cards guys are going to play more I mean and if you reduce the number of cards and I said this I think we’re seeing that this year already Joe and that’s gonna continue no you have to

Right and so if you do reduce the number of cards guys are gonna play every week I mean these guys there’s so much money in the game now PGA Tour players and I said this two years ago they’re going to have more of an athletic career and that athletic career is going

To be in the NBA you’re going sure you’ve got LeBron James and you got Tom Brady and you’ve got these guys but you know 10 12 years yeah a lot of these careers are going to be you know six to nine years the best will play 12 to 18 I

Mean look at these kids you got Nick Dunlap and you got leing oberg and you’ve got I mean you’ve got the uh how you pronounce it h uh the twins from Den uh oh hoard Hoards I mean you got you got all these young young guys coming in

It’s incredible the amount of talent that are just Caleb srat Went to went to live but you you just have it’s going to get younger I mean when I got on tour in 1999 I think there were six of us that were under 25 yeah Prime is definitely it’s

Trending there’s no doubt you’re right um the idea that that you you you started to get to like riding that high high at 30 no it’s now it’s now 24 to 26 20 7 there’s no doubt that that that achievement they’re not waiting longer they’re not waiting their turn they’re

More ready um I I I there’s no doubt I I agree with that um Let me let me ask you about the public investment fund because it was interesting and it’s always interesting to see Rory’s position on things um there there have been some dramatic evolution of opinion from him

The Olympics steadfastly opposed uh took shots at the whole thing right before it in 2016 and I know part of that was was was a personal thing he was used as a political football and it was uncomfortable uh and it really was an intensely personal thing and then he

Went to he went to Tokyo and and now he is beating the drum and and you know live and his he just loathed it and I’m not suggesting he’s wrapped his arms around live now but there is a combination of getto over it it’s it’s we need it now resignation whatever it

May be does the PJ tour absolutely and does SSG positively need piff investment I think need is a strong word okay right I mean if if you look at this and say okay I’ve got lives put or sorry the piff has put in let’s say they spent two and a half

To 2.8 billion to date on Liv um SSG just valued the PGA Tours Equity at 12 billion pre 13 a. half billion post so I mean that 12 billion in equity is still what four and a half times what the piff is invested today I mean that’s a pretty good Fortress to defend

Yourself but I think Rory looks at the piff is almost like the the if you’re a star Star Trek fan the Borg I mean resistance is futile you will assimilated and you know when you’ve got someone that’s throwing that type of money at you um

It’s really hard I mean you know if you if you look at the guys who went I don’t I don’t blame them I mean these these numbers are these are these really Major League Baseball NBA and and um NFL type numbers for a sport that you know we

Don’t get those we don’t get the viewership and so and no one’s ever done this before so it was just like wow um but I I think that you know you got to hand it to the guys that didn’t take it that that that kind of hitch their wagon

To the PGA Tour um that looked at it like okay we still have the biggest stage to play on um I I get I get where worri is all over the place um I think it’s highly likely and I said this from the beginning that International Golf is sort of grand it’s

Kind of Green Field if you look at the DP World schedule it is I mean if the PJ tour has bloated schedule I don’t even know what the DP World Tour schedule is I mean it’s it’s got I mean you had the South African open going on the same

Time as the as the may have been the Australian PGA or maybe the Australian Open maybe they were on the same date yeah month of December lot of like they were DP World Tour events I mean so you have a crazy bloated schedule on the DP

World Tour um and so I always thought that the piff and the DP World Tour and the PGA Tour can say okay let’s let’s do intern National Golf over here PGA Tour the US tour really really works I mean you’ve got the most consistent weather you’ve got three time zones you’ve got

The biggest country in the world best economy in the world or biggest economy in the world um you have ease of use it’s pretty darn good you’ve got three Majors you got the PLAYERS Championship so from March 1st to call it July 1st golf is the United States um so if you

Look if you just take that is is okay that’s where golf is I I kind of saw like the piff internationally that kind of made sense to me um do they need I think it’s I think you got to separate it right piff DP World Tour PGA Tour okay cash infusion

Whatever that looks like piff gets a minority ownership what happens to live because if you’re SSG and you’re the PJ tour and you’re the DP World Tour and players own that entity and SSG owns part of that entity already no one can afford to take on

Live right I mean it’s it’s going to lose you know somewhere in the $450 to $600 million range this year so you can’t I mean $450 million purses and the the television product that they put out is incredible with with TV stands on every I mean it’s they can literally

Televise every hole which is they’ spent a lot of money and it’s huge cap back so you can’t no one can take on live except the piff and so you almost have to do a deal without live over here and I don’t know I what one thing I will say the PGA Tour

And the piff and SSG there’s been no leaks on what the talk has been with with with p and and no one knows um so maybe they have a grand plan maybe they have this whole thing that they’re going to put together and it’s um but I I just don’t know

Maybe the piff’s involved with you know what I want to do with the President’s Cup um I just don’t I just don’t know uh what that looks like but I do know live almost has to be separate because no one can afford it right now now maybe maybe it works later maybe

This deal helps it make work and they get TV and but it’s really hard because what if if I sign Gary Williams to play for the New York Yankees and you go out on a three- game series with a Boston Red Sox and you hit 10 home runs and 25

RBI and you know you make an amazing thing and I’ve already paid you a100 million to be a Yankee I don’t pay you for that Series right and so if I’ve played John ROM $300 million you don’t go pay for 20 or $ 25 million purse and so that’s the that’s

The Bugaboo right I mean I get contracted players are interesting I mean that’s a that’s a New Concept we can argue on the money that’s whatever but the but the the contracted guarantee and then the purse on top of that it just no one

Can a I don’t I don’t see how that model works and then you take it leagues need geography there’s there’s F1 I think is the only sport in the world that the geography is global I guess tennis is global tennis is but tennis is tennis is very fractured and fragmented and when it

Split apart it did a reparable harm and and it also coincided with with American men drying up as as top five players but nonetheless yeah I understand your point yeah and it’s a you know tennis is a bit of a dumpster fire financially too so you have you no one understands it so

You have leagues need geography and live is kind of everywhere and so it’s really tough to do a TV deal because the public even with streaming Sports is different and the reason people pay so much for sports is because there’s time slots there’s people it’s the only thing you

Have to see live and when you have you know you’re playing in Singapore and you’re playing Australia which I think is great great globally Americans it’s tough to tune in at 3 o’clock in the morning and and so that’s a hard thing and so leagues need geography um or at least

That’s I think that’s a consistent theme for successful leagues so so Liv is going to have to be in these negotiations I think separate and I just don’t no one knows it’d be great if you know uh H or yaser would would kind of make his ideas known to the to the golf

World I think that would go a long way for it because he’s got he’s got Greg Norman is kind of you know that’s the face of it and you know Greg Greg um Stokes a lot of emotion in the golf world and it’s not um people dismiss it you know on it on

Its people just miss it because Greg’s involved and so you know it’d be great if if if he if yaser would come out and say this is this is my vision this is what I want yeah well here’s the thing about about yaser and about them and and I

Rely on somebody who’s done a lot of business with them uh in in the sports uh atmosphere and it’s a kabuki dance it’s it is it’s very different um Market principles don’t necessarily apply um compromise is is a word they’re unfamiliar with um and so it’s not an

Easy partnership and oh by the way you know look this this this thing that came out a couple of weeks ago about about entrapment and kidnapping and all that it’s one thing to take their money it’s another thing to to to have to do photo ops and I don’t know what’s going to

Happen with that but this is a swallow hard kind of like not just once maybe for the foreseeable future which is which is challenging and and I say that and ask you this why wouldn’t the public investment fund just buy the DP World Tour you then own the Ryder Cup on the

European side you have a foothold in the Middle East where all top players have gone to start the year you have very attractive venues in the fall I mean think about I mean from Wentworth to the Dunhill links to the Italian o I mean they they like you said they’re bloated

But you strip away all that stuff and you insert some of these you know you go to live with respect to Australia obviously Saudi um why why wouldn’t they just buy the DP World Tour yeah I mean um and that that’s probably part of the negotiations right

I think the PJ tour owns 40% of it um and yeah I think think the DP World Tour is really interesting I mean it would be interesting to have a have the Tour subsidizing all of their deals Joe yeah I mean yeah no it’s it’s it’s a it’s a

Mess but you’ve got I mean you’ve got a bunch of tournaments that are National opens I mean you said the Italian Open The French Open the um Spanish open yeah I mean it’s it’s it’s amazing and and so there’s there’s a look I think they

Could make a I think they could make a I think it’d be better for International Golf if the VP World Tour was fully funded I think you’re going to lose some people you know that’s currently on the PGA tour to go over there but I I look

If I’m a player I want competition um and I think it’s very healthy to have those to have you know a DP World Tour that’s very number one financially viable and fully funded and if you had a partner that could spend a lot of money and and create something over there I

Think that would actually enhance believe it or not the PGA Tour I mean it used to be I remember it was really cool when sebie BOS came over and played Westchester before the US Open like that and I think Greensboro by the way you would go to Greensboro North Carolina I

Mean I think there’s enough Global Talent that it would be great to develop stars that were you know that that that Americans got to see on our tour you know five or six times I mean if if you gave me the PGA Tour and you gave me a

Fully funded DP World Tour and you said all right go compete well okay I mean I’ve got the United States of America I’ve got three time zones that I have my golf tournaments on I’ve got three of the four majors that are played on my soil I I feel pretty comfortable I can

Compete under that scenario I might lose guys I I will definitely lose guys live as live is taking guys but I can compete under those scenarios and if I’m a player I want there to be great tournaments in September October November December I mean if I’m the best player in the world

I want those events to be great I want the Australian Open Rory made reference to this to be great the Japan open I mean I think Japan’s what the number four largest economy in the world I want the I want the Japan open to

Be huge I want to go play that um I I don’t know I think that there’s something on the international side and I think if I’m a player especially if I’m a top player I benefit if International Golf is strong and if I’m worried about it and I’m inside of you

Know I’m running the PGA Tour I can I feel comfortable that I can compete with that and I feel comfortable I can compete with a fully funded you know uh competitor and you know it would make me better it’s going to make my tournaments better it’s going to make my

Guys better it’s going to make everybody better and then I give my guys a chance to go play internationally and I can probably partner and and create something some type of international series when my season’s done and you know and I I enhance the global game if

I go down and make great tournaments in Australia or great tournaments in Asia great tournaments in Japan China wherever all of that’s going to do is it’s going to develop the next great star the next great Jason day the next Hideki matama the great um uh howong lee

It’s gonna it’s U sunm it’s gonna it’s going to create these new guys they’re going to come out of the wber there’s just going to be more of them and so longterm that’s a long-term greedy strategy if I’m the commissioner of the PGA Tour that I might have some pain to

Compete at the beginning but long term everyone’s going to benefit and I think the global golf system is going to benefit two two last things they’re not for sale um but do you think the Strategic Sports Group uh should find out what the what the ridiculous sticker

Price would be for the Ryder Cup and the PGA Championship and obviously the tour’s got a piece of the Ryder Cup already um but but to to to purchase that major um and if the PJ of America you you talk about and again I’m I’m speaking in kind of an outlandish

Hypothetical here you you know pension and health care and those types of things for their membership yeah they lose these really amazing you know hood ornaments uh to put their organization in front of would you pursue purchasing those um not at the beginning what I

Would what I would do and setha has he referenced this at the last Rider cup that the economics are so skewed right now that I mean the PJ tour I think 23 out of the 24 guys that played in The ryer Cup this year were tour members yep

And the the economic split is the PGA Tour gets 20% of the us-based television rights nothing of the gate nothing of the corporate sponsorships nothing of the you know all that kind of stuff so number one I think you got to I think you got to redo the economics and then

You can talk about purchasing or partnering or whatever you know it’s a little bit inefficient because they’ve got two tournaments basically that they do this PJ tour has a bunch there’s economies of scale That Could That Could Happen um you get a lot more efficient those events could be you

Know um those events could could continue to grow um you know our players could I don’t think our players want to be paid but I think our players do understand that on the President’s Cup they are paid because the President’s Cup is in the is in our television package and so that’s a

That’s a tent pole event that when NBC buys it and we put it with you know 10 other tournaments it makes it makes those 10 other tournaments worth more money on the television package and so our our players that play in the President’s Cup benefit um and the Ryder Cup you know

It’s not in our television package so I think that that’s what those guys were saying I mean it wasn’t reported very well and of and of course it was during being reported during the tournament so there was a little bit of and it was on European soil there was a little bit of

Uh you know poster board uh talk on that but I think that that’s what you know the can’t lays of the world and the and the shaes of the world were more referring to um so I think you negotiate the economics and then you you know you get with Seth and

You say look what’s what’s what do we got um it’s beneficial for the PGA Tour to own or at least to put those two events in the television package and it’s and it’s beneficial to PGA of America to kind of say okay we’re going to run these in conjunction because you can get

Better vendor deals and you can get if your if your you know if your package is bigger so there will probably be something happen there um I would imagine but it’s you know I would I would want to negotiate it first to get the economics right and then and then

You go from there okay last thing the equity piece of this for the players themselves um the premise that it’s going to be staggered there’s going to be some like performance parameters maybe Legacy Equity uh afforded to to certain players does all that in your

World uh as far as it do is there a potential for a lawsuit from a faction of the membership going wait a second this this you know the idea of it being teered in the manner in which it is uh doesn’t work for us does this get resolved easily

Comfortably no but it’ll get resolved right I mean there’ll be a lot of lawyers um but that’s where I think that I mean look there’s been 602 individual winners of the PGA Tour since I think 1969 um if tiger gets the most equity and Jack and Arnold get you know the

Most of the veteran members and you kind of work down from there and there’s an algorithm based on wins and cuts and yada y I I don’t know I think that the Legacy guys um should probably get 3% of the equity and that’s I mean we’re not

Talking huge huge numbers but I think it does we rever the past on the PGA tour and golf in general talk about Hogan and talk about Bob Jones and talk about all these guys and when Jack and Arnold and few other guys made the PGA Tour or started the PGA tour in

1969 um you know it might be if you’ve won a few tournaments or whatever you get $100,000 but you know back those guys they’re 80 and 90 $100,000 a lot of money um and I I think they should do that and then as far as the stars on the PJ tour and

The needle movers and the guys who turned it down uh to go with piff they’re going to get an outside package and um you know we can argue and people can argue whether it’s right that they get Equity or not but I mean look we times have changed and you know

I think this is where I think this is where we are and um I also think that if you give these guys equity and um it’s meaningful enough that you now kind of switch the conversation on it’s getting it’s it’d be easier to get the guys from Liv that

Want to play back on the PGA tour because again I go back to it if I’m an owner and Gary Williams is went to live and you know you’re the you just want a major or something um I want you to play The Players Championship it’s in my best

Interest that is that is one of the top two events that I have well top three so we got the FedEx Cup we got the President’s Cup and we got the PLAYERS Championship Players Championship is it’s always been the best field in golf it’s always been an underrated tournament even

Though you know it’s a very high I mean it’s just an incredible event why do you think it’s underrated well just because you’ve got aund you’ve got 125 guys that play then you’ve got everybody in the top 100 in the in the in the world um I mean you

Truly do have the best field and golf on a golf course that I mean it’s terrifying it’s it’s very provocative i i i i the reason I ask you that is I I think it is too uh and I think part of the reason why it it kind

Of has this kind of weird place in the game is because for too long people were trying to force feed the notion that it’s the fifth major I was in a meeting this was five to six years ago with Jay and I said do you like that do you like

Being called that and he kind of he said well what do you mean I said well first of all if you’re a major you’re a major there’s no there’s there’s and and I get it I get how people you know rank it I’d rather win this and that but at the end

Of the day the the the weighting is it’s the same we don’t we don’t look at Jack’s PGA any different in terms of the number I I think that that has kind of in a weird way kind of kind of weirded out the whole perception of what it is I

Think we’ve also put the majors in such a place that that it’s hard to put anything else even close it’s by far the next best thing you can win in golf and that’s great why can’t that just be great yeah it’s the great it’s just a

Great great event and it’s it stands on its own exactly and it is I mean look I when I played it I had to get rotator cuff surgery cuz I had so many drops um back when you used to drop up at shoulder level so I mean it it was a

Heart attack admitted and it’s so much fun to watch those last you know I think Dean beam call him the gauntlet um and it could but we got to get back there where it’s the best field in the world and I think the way you do it with

Equity is you can get back there quicker if these guys are participating and you kind of you talk over the business side I know these guys that you know some of them the head their eyes are going to roll back in their skull when you start talking about the business side of the

PGA Tour but it really matters and it it’ll go a long way you need to communicate it we haven’t been the best at communicating lately but I I think that there’s a way to do this I could be just paana and you know pie in the sky

But I think there’s a way to do this that we get back to where the game needs to be and um you know I I think that the players championship and and those tent pool events could be where you start to see a coming together it won’t be just

The majors but we’ll be we’ll be a part of that I hope at least I hope listen I I greatly appreciate the time I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation I hope to see you sooner than than later thank you so much for doing this hey thanks Gary and you know you know where

To get me on AOL so uh yes I do yes I do you you will die on that Hill uh you are I mean you really are the old Tom Morris of of internet communication yeah I am um got mail thank you appreciate it Gary well really appreciate Joe taking the time there there’s a lot there to unpack and there’s going to be so much more because the public investment fund part of this is really the biggest part for you know look 1.5 billion is big could go to three uh it’s the business

Of men’s professional golf I do bristle when I hear the game the game the game this is not the game the game is you putting your ball in the hopper or you playing a member guest and going on a on a boy trip or a women’s trip to play the

Game that’s the game this is the sport the business a professional go it’s a big difference but appreciate him most importantly appreciate all of you out there watching and listening to this five clubs Conversation