What went wrong for Kalvin Phillips at Man City?

18 months after completing a £45m move to Manchester City from his boyhood club Leeds United, Kalvin Phillips is heading out on loan to West Ham United.

But why has the move ended in failure for the England international after looking so promising under Marcelo Bielsa at Elland Road prior to signing for Pep Guardiola?

With Euro 2024 on the horizon, can David Moyes rejuvenate one of Gareth Southgate’s most trusted midfielders?

Ayo Akinwolere is joined by The Athletic’s Man City writer Sam Lee, Leeds United writer Phil Hay and England correspondent Jack Pitt-Brooke to discuss.

00:00 Intro
00:40 Kalvin Phillips at Man City
01:25 Did City get something wrong?
05:43 Phillips & Rodri comparisons
10:58 Kalvin Phillips under different management
17:30 Is the level at City too high?
20:34 Will West Ham be a good fit for him?
24:52 Could Phillips get into the England squad?
33:14 Phillips & Rice comparisons
37:06 Outro

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#mancity #westham #premierleague

Here for Thursday’s episode we’ve got the Athletics Manchester City writer Sam Le leads United writer Phil Haye and also our England correspondent Jack pit Brook right let’s start with you Sam look 18 months into signing for Manchester City 45 million pounds you know I remember him signing as you know

After the mural was painted for him at Lees United Club Legend and then for some reason doesn’t seem to have worked out under Guardiola any thoughts why any thoughts why I mean the long and the short of it and it’s it’s I’ve always felt harsh writing and

Saying this for the last year or so but he’s not been good enough or is he’s been a judge not good enough which is a mad thing to say because you think about all the players in the Premier League you think okay there’s probably quite a lot who obviously great players we’re

Not right for City but you think Calin Phillips is a good player um you wouldn’t have thought he’d be out of his depth when he did sign he talked about going back to then with had the mural at leads I remember thinking okay it might take 18 months like everyone else he

Might not show his best straight away but no I see no reason why he won’t get there but he hasn’t um you know I think Guardiola and the staff kind of made their minds up pretty early on that in terms of like January last year kind of

Time the writing’s been on the wall for about a year now in terms of why I think the city just actually got this one wrong um there were there was loads of reasons but we can go into those why theyed him um just just briefly England International played for belela

Um the profile of the player he was he wasn’t coming into to expect to play every minute which is key for City in that position but I think they thought well he’s a good guy he’s played for BSA so we can we can kind of reprogram him

And get him to do what we need to do and I think they had a look in training and quickly went I’m not sure about this and then as it went on he didn’t really adjust to to what they needed and by that I mean he’s just a bit more direct

Than what they need for that position um he he he struggled a bit specifically with taking the ball off Defenders off the goalkeeper which is a huge part of the whole midfielder’s job um and again look if he signed for another team with his quality another top team you know

Another top six team I don’t think he’d have many problems but with what Guardiola want specifically it just wasn’t up to it and you know it’s obviously a very high bar yeah Phil I I wonder you know in terms of his personality um Alvin Phillips you know

This was this was the the step up right you know we saw what he could do at leads um leader at that team um Local Hero Boyhood Club you know but like anyone has faced adversity in his career as well and nothing would have I don’t know through what I’ve seen from the

Outside would have made me think Manchester City wouldn’t work for him why do you think it didn’t work for him considering he was so influential in that lead Squad I’m with you I did think it would be a good fit uh and and he was

Certainly ready for it I mean in in the Summer where he left Le Leeds had gone very close to relegation and if truth be told they’ve been lucky to get away with it and the system that they were playing under Jesse Marsh didn’t suit many were

As well as the system used by Marcel baa did baa turned him from quite actually a generic Central midfielder into this really really defined um Ultra important defensive mid you know holding point in front of the the back four um it was massively influential in that team and

And was almost like the metronome in in making it Tech and I mean strangely enough Leeds never had a player who was identical to Phillips Phillips was the one in that role um in the way that I think to to a large extent is the one in

That role at Manchester City and I think what Phillips is found at city and Sam touched on this I think he’s he’s absolutely right is that it’s not that Phillips isn’t an elite midfielder or a you know very very good Premier League midfielder but at City it has to be the

Best of the best and I think partly he hasn’t had many games because rodri D is so good but partly he hasn’t had many games because he just isn’t quite at that level and and I think what you’ll probably find is that very quickly at West Ham you’ll start to see the

Strengths of Philip you’ll start to see the difference that he makes I think the way that he plays the way he passes the ball um hitting Runners who are very quick and and go from deep and have space in behind him he’ll probably suit

West Ham um to to a large extent but I think what Sam said there you know about struggling to take the ball of the defense behind him and use it properly says something about just how good City are um and how you know how high the standards are under Guardiola because

That’s what they did under BSA leads and okay a lot of that was in the championship but they thrived at it he thrived at it he was he was excellent in that role and it just seems to me that that it has been a step too far Jack I mean from an England

Perspective I mean talk about standards I mean this is an international football It’s Been instrumental in the in the England squad are we saying the standards at England aren’t as good as the standards um under pep guarda for instance I mean this is a top of elite football yeah I mean it’s worth

Remembering isn’t it that he started all seven of England’s games at Euro 2020 and that was only two and a half years ago so he’s clearly been a hugely important part part of gar South Gates team um I do think the level of Manchester city is much higher than than

The level for England the demands are different of course because southgate’s got a narrow pool of players to choose from he can’t he can’t have the same expectations of the of the players that that Guardiola can um and what’s been interesting to me is that even though Guardiola clearly doesn’t rate Phillips

Especially highly Southgate has been really really loyal to him over the last few years you know he’s made B he’s in almost every England squad he started I think so far this season he started two games for Manchester City and two games for England so despite the

Fact that he’s he’s been on the outside at at city he’s still been a part of the England setup even if he has lost his starting 11th place so it’ll be really interesting to see what what bearing his move to West Ham has on his prospects

For the Euros in the summer yeah um Sam you alluded to sort of the arrival and the rise of rodri I mean we talk about difference in quality it’s it’s quite a starkk difference not to say Calvin Phillips isn’t a fantastic player of course he’s equipped in so

Many ways but in terms of a development of a player C Guardiola has someone like rodri you look at a player like that you think oh goodness me I can’t leave him out of the squad and then Calvin Phillips is going how am I even going to

Break into this squad you know you’ve still got Bernardo Silva that can sit in that position as well and they’ve got various other players that can sort of sit in that position as well well well the thing is they haven’t got anyone who’s as good as as Roder now um when

They had G wi it wasn’t so bad um but part of the reason they they brought Phillips is because Phillips knew going in that yeah he wouldn’t play that much he was fine with that and one of the reasons that City bought him was because they didn’t want to sign

Somebody like chaini for example who went to Real Madrid I think it was the same summer he was on the market as well but City he didn’t want to go for somebody who’ be like 80 million expecting to play they wanted somebody of that Phillips mold who would think

Okay well I’m not going to play every your game but I will go and I I’ll try but the thing was Roger’s going to play every game but when there is rest needed Guardiola would put somebody else in and the comparison with rodri is good because it shows that there’s a quality

Level because rodri is just brilliant and like you say Phillips is obviously very good as well I agree with um Phil he’d be great at West Ham I think I agree with JPB I think he’ll continue to be good for England if he has a a good

Spell at West Ham i’ see no reason why he won’t start fingland again in Midfield in the summer so no problems there but you’re talking about just a different level with rodri but also it’s just it’s not just about quality but about type and I think where Guardiola

Thought they could maybe or city thought they maybe change him and adapt him in the same way that they’ve got a Winger like dku who’s got very brilliant talents but don’t not everything just fits into what city want but they think okay well we can take that we can take

That or we can mold it I think they thought they could do that with Phillips but they haven’t been able to and in terms of the type of midfielder he is when we think about Phillips and when we think about that Euros Campaign which is probably where most people have seen him

He’s more boxto boox isn’t he he’s more all action City don’t want that from a holding midfielder and obviously they thought they could change him but they haven’t been able to but that’s kind of it you know he’s been more he’s more of a direct player he he moves more than

Rodri does you know Guardiola likes just holding midfielders to stay in their position and dictate the game around them not not move so much I think Phillips is that type of midfielder and again in terms of the writing being on the wall Guardiola said October and then

He said it again around December he said when the game’s a bit more chaotic we can use Calvin when does Guardiola ever want a chaotic game he goes out of his way to make sure the games aren’t chaotic I mean the nail was already in the coffin by that point but that was

Like the last I mean can you put a cherry on top of like a cofin and cake I’m mixing my Mets up but you know what I mean that was it that was the final confirmation it’s like you just don’t see this guy in your team whatsoever so

It’s partly because of the quality of rodri but partly just because of type and that’s why again going into a different team like Phil said finding Runners being a bit more direct he’ll be absolutely fine and to be honest I wouldn’t be surprised in a month’s time

He’ll be playing well for West Ham and people say why did City let him go but it was just just not the right style fit as much as anything Ju Just two points I was going to make on Phillips um one was that I think one of the red flags was

That it’s it’s not as if every top Elite player um at city has played every week or or been a regular in Guardiola starting lineup and Mar’s always struck me as somebody who Guardiola really rated and wanted to involve but had other players he would rather play first

And it felt different with Phillips it was that even when he kind of needed somebody in that position and rodry wasn’t available or you know the injury problems or whatever else Phillips never really felt like the go-to player even though he should have been the answer

There and I think that over time that started to tell you that it just it just wasn’t working and there was something about him or something about his style that wasn’t suiting um Guardiola but Phillips is quite has got quite an interesting background because he he was

A l Comer to the academy at leads most of the best players who’ve come through Leeds Academy and there’ve been plenty I’ve been in it from primary school age you know so eight nine 10 years old Philips arrived in his mid teens um he was well into secondary school at that

Point he was quite close to being released when he was in under 18 he’s very late developer and even the season before um BSA came in he was being used certainly in the first part of it as more of an attacking mid you know somebody who was um trying to get into

The box go beyond the last man scored a decent number of goals it was very different under BSA BSA actually did use him as that defensive pivot in the Midfield but what you have to remember is that Leeds had masses of possession in the championship they were very very

Dominant they played on the front foot and Phillips would often play around about the opposition box because of the way the game was set up but he’s quite new generally speaking to that role you know I know it’s back in 2018 that Bea came in but that’s a short stint of a

Player’s career it’s not as if Phillips has been molded as a defensive mid from the age of nine um or even from the age of 15 16 he’s gone through quite a lot of transitional periods um and as I say I think there’s an extremely good high quality Premier League player there but

I think we’ll see him flourish far more at West Ham than than he has at City yeah that just brings me on to to this really in terms of you know that the managers he has played under and sort of having the trust of the manager or

Feeling like he’s he’s part of the manager’s plans him how much do you think of a cultural shock was it to go from be Elsa to to to Guardiola uh Sam in many respects because you know football-wise and we’re talking perhaps it’s a quality difference but football-wise both love to control

Possession right so perhaps there’s a little ingredient that the guarda is like perhaps it’s going work for me but for some reason perhaps it’s the character of the manager that just hasn’t worked for the player well I don’t know in terms of the character of the manager I think it’s pretty similar

I mean B may even be more strict than Guardiola you know obviously I think one of the big landmarks of Phillips’s time at City the people will remember and obviously it hasn’t really been on the pitch but off the pitch and that would be after the World Cup and coming back

You know overweight um but you know he had Runnings with Bea about that had leads and I think Bea was Guardia is very stricted about it but I think B is very like heavy as well as the Spanish say even more so but but in terms of the

Style of play I think it’s probably the the style of play rather than the approach of the manager the characteristics of the manager which was the biggest difference because although yeah obviously they they chose possession the El is far more chaotic isn’t he like the way that they would

Mark manto man if you think about I I love B I think he’s fantastic but um if you think about his leads before he got sacked with the way that the manto man Markin was being exploited City he did it they they scored they scored seven at

The EAD I think United may have got six and Scot Momin talked about it recently how character said look if somebody makes a run and you run through the middle you’ll get it and he scored after like a minute or something Guardiola would never set his team up in a way

That was that susceptible to to being ripped open um you know he’s he’s actually very conservative as a manager and I think B is a lot more certainly by comparison gungho and again I think that goes back to the style of the midfielder they wanted I think they realized or

They noticed certain traits in Phillips and other characteristics like him being English and not expecting to play too much and not being especially defensive but they recognized certain traits him okay we can change that but ultimately they couldn’t but yeah in terms of differences in the managers I don’t know

I I think you know Guardiola is no no more stricter Taskmaster than than Bea but I think it’s the style of play you know Guardiola doesn’t want his holding midfielder running up the pitch and leaving space behind that’s actually the last thing he wants B was incredibly strict and I mean the

Stories among many with him at leads were the fact that there were you know weight checks for players every single morning and I know it’s not unusual at all for elite clubs to do that with footballers but even during Co everybody was sent home with specific scales

Everybody had to send in at a certain time in the morning via WhatsApp their wait for the day it was a daily thing of making sure that nobody deviated and there were points where Phillips and others did did find that tough I I agree with Sam about the style B would always

Say when we asked him about Guardiola because Guardiola is always very differential to um to B and talks highly of him and says he’s been influenced by massively but be also always used to try and say what he’s doing is is not exactly what I’m doing you can’t say

That he’s copying me you can’t say that his football is exactly the same as mine and and know different similarities different principles that that they both adhered to but B’s football was far more open and far more aggressive um you could almost say far more more attacking it’s not the city aren’t attacking

They’re very very much on that level um but they have the players to do it whereas with be Elsa it was almost irrespective of who he had and who was in his team that was how they played that was was what they did um and I

Think again it just comes back to the the fact that at City the level you need to be at is absolutely top of the tree you need to be the best set of players in the world and and I think Phillips just fall short of that Sam I was really

Surprised when Phillips came back from the World Cup and Guardiola said I believe he said it was in a press conference he’s overweight he’s not in condition to train and play is that like I’m not you know I’m not surprised that a manager would look at something like

That because of course manager obssessed about the player’s physical state but is it unusual for a city man for the city manager to do that I vaguely remember him saying something about Sam azri and when he took over in 2016 but it seems kind of it struck me a little bit that

Guardiola would choose to make that comment public rather than just to keep it in house AB absolutely that was the key sign that was that was one of the Key signs because up until that point you think but he’s had shoulder surgery he not played too much before that but

He’s a new sign in he’s had surgery that kept him out for what two or three months end up World Cup so nobody was looking thinking Phillips hasn’t done much it was just normal lucky fair enough and then guarda says that you think oh okay what’s he done to annoy

Him then because guarda is very good at normally like if you if you go into a press conference it’s it’s it’s a tap in for the manager if somebody’s played well he always used to do it with leoan for example you say oh sane was great

Today like it could this be his season or whatever but it always flipped the Switch and Go you know what he needs to he need to do this this and this and his attitude needs to be better anything okay and then the next week you go into

Press conference and go what was it about asan’s attitude that needs to improve and he goes look we got about Leroy and it’s like he’ll only do it when it suits him but he was very much sending a message and look as far as I

Know I think at least one of the city player high-profile City player also came back overweight but Guardiola didn’t have any concerns about him he probably thought well he’ll get up to it straight away but there was lingering concerns that Guardiola already had and

He thought I need to nip this in the bud I need to get this guy up to our level quickly and it’s one of those where Phillips never really did much wrong I think a lot of the players who were in the England team who weren’t starting

They came back in not great shape because the training was very much geared on the the first 11 and the starting players the other ones were more you know defending that set pieces that kind of thing so they weren’t especially sharp they didn’t come back in great shape Phillips didn’t do

Anything especially wrong because City players were given time off after the World Cup they were given a date they had to come back by Phillips came back on the right date he took some time off beforehand came back on time little bit overweight the problem was and I think

This is something that City realized I think people don’t like around Philips realized too other City players had maybe realized they weren’t in great shape they come back sooner and you know players like leaport for example Phillips is a great guy in the dressing room he never gave Guardiola despite

This massive lack of playing time he never gave him a minute hassle about that but if leaport was out of the team for one game if marz was at the team for one game they’d be moaning about it and Guardiola genuinely appreciates and likes Calin Phillips for that but on the

Same by the same token leaport came back early to do that extra training and I think they was a bit of a a thing that Phillips needs to realize this is the level now he wasn’t back late he didn’t do anything necessarily wrong but you at

City now you need to step up you need to go to the next level that stereotypical thing about all the you know his first one in and last one out of training City got about five of those guys he he needed to get up to that level and when

It came to preseason he did come back early he did do extra work with a trainer the message did go in but again then we go back to the start and it was ultimately about the quality but there was a little bit of that as well and

That’s why Guardiola made it public when he did didn’t with others and there’s plenty of other things as well which he will keep behind closed doors in house but when he’s got a little message to send he will do it and obviously what a month after that was when City beat

Spurs and he came out with that happy flower stuff because he’d been saying behind the scenes for months you need to do this you need to do this and it weren’t listening so he thought well I need to go public with it and I think it’s similar with Phillips it’s it’s

Funny listening to this because actually it it’s almost confusion in the sense that what went on at leads with belela should have set Phillips up perfectly for for that type of he also loved Philips I mean really really loved him he once told him that if one of his

Daughters had to marry a footballer he’d be quite happy if it was Calvin you know that he kind of said you know you that’s and and be was famous for and is famous for never getting close to players you know keeps them at arms length it’s it’s

How how he deals with them but if you go back to the start of B’s last season Philip’s last season that leads um 2122 you’ll find that Phillips post Euros spent a bit of time out with the team and and it was the same sort of

Thing trying to get him back into the condition that BSA wanted him to be to be in I mean again there’s a a famous story of a charity golf day that somebody had paid you know four figures for to play golf with with Phillips on a

Sunday morning got to the golf course to find that Phillips wasn’t there because he’d been Dragged In for extra running you know extra running sessions at at thop Arch to get himself in shape so I can’t imagine that what went on at city um was a real shock to the system and it

Sounds a little bit like it’s a kind of accumulation of factors but and Sam might might disagree with this but it does feel more and more when you listen to it like it come comes back to the fact that for Guardiola he just wasn’t ticking the boxes and I imagine that was

Probably more than anything that must have been technical yeah technical I do think a little bit attitude but again it’s difficult to sum up because he’s not got a bad attitude whatsoever but it’s just the standards look they won the treble last year you don’t just do it by being

Good at football you need extra ingredients as well and you know Phillips is very good at football he’s very good professional maybe just not quite that but like I say when he goes if he would to go to West Ham look if he would have go to jpv might disagree but

Spurs for example I don’t see him having an issue at at a top team um England even but you know city is just the next level and I know I’m the city correspondent people going to say you would you would think good of them but they just won the treble you know they

Wanton five out of six Premier League titles you need to be at a huge level here and that’s just what it is Jack I’m gonna come to you in a second just around David Moy because he’s obviously off to West Ham on loan but just a quick one fill on on Phillips’s relationship

With B Elsa I think I was watching something recently he talked about having a hard time at uh City and having to call be Elsa just to get that confidence back and I wonder if there is a little bit of that because you know we’re still dealing with human beings at

The end of the day where you feel nurtured in one place and then you sort of feel a bit isolated in the other just based on can I talk to the manager can I have a chat with him does he make me feel confident about myself you know he

Has spoken about lacking confidence at certain points in his career and perhaps you know that step up to city where it’s probably a bit more of a corporate environment in that respect just did suit his Personality yeah I I got the sense when speaking to people who know him that his

Time went on at City he he’d gone there very respectfully of the club he was joining and I think like Sam said aware of the fact that it wasn’t going to be games every week but I think his time went on there was a certain degree of I

Don’t know if you could call it embarrassment or humiliation or whatever else but I think professionally he knew it wasn’t a great look to be there on and what is a very big contract with a team who win an awful lot and and you know at a place where he is picking up

Medals and barely kicking a ball you know I think he started to feel as time went on that it that it wasn’t right for him and he and he did need to go somewhere else um he’s a he’s a lovely guy as Phillips I mean everybody likes him he’s genuinely popular really really

Good company kind of sort of the earth and I think that probably touches quite a lot on both his family background but also the fact that he wasn’t in the academy system um from a really early age that’s no smear on the other kids at leads Le are actually very very good at

Educating the kids that go through it and and bringing out mature players at the other side of it but he was just a very ordinary ordinary guy extremely laidback without a doubt I remember his old Academy coach Neil redon saying that he’d said to him once when I see you

Walk you sort of walk from side to side rather than walking straight forward you know everything needs to be you know you need you need to look like you’re going for things you need to have that you know being kind of lateral um and but at

The same time the career he’s built is is very very impressive given the in start he he was at and I know that when it was City the reason he went to he he met with Andre rzani the old leads owner on a yacht um near um AA and told him I

Want to go and the reason was because that was the moment you know that was the move and I think there was a certain amount of doubt about is he actually going to be good enough for that level because it is the best of the best but

It felt like the right move to me I I thought it would work I thought given the price of players generally that 45 million might look like decent value for him um but not as it turns out yeah Jack in terms of obviously heading to West

Ham and I know we’ve written that you know David Moy has been a fan of Phillips for a while this feels like a wonderful fit in terms of both personnal and and I guess the profile of the team as well yeah I think so I think W like I

Think West Ham have done really well this season with the resources they’ve got but to me it always looks like that their team’s really thin like I mean the recruitment has been mix that obviously C cudas has come in and done brilliantly but I think they’re still probably a few

Players short in terms of depth um and if you particularly you look at the middle of the pitch you know Ward prow has comeing and done really really well um such they’ve had for a while has been very consistent Alvarez is kind of fine but there’s not an awful lot of energy I

Think in those three um and I think they definitely look like they need an extra body who can come in hit the ground running because they know the Premier League like Phillips does but give them a little bit more physical energy and dynamism in the middle of the pitch

Because they can look a little bit I mean except for when they get the ball to cus and bow they can look a little bit onepac West Ham I think that though the physicality combined with what Phillips does well on the ball which is switches a play long diagonals and

Everything else should be tailor made for I mean it can’t be a coincidence reading ran Thomas’s piece earlier this week um and him talking in there about the fact that Moyes had identified Phillips way back when he was out of work you know as a player he might go

After later in his career it can’t be a coincidence that and and you you would assume that on the basis of what Moyes is has seen and and identified in him that he and West Ham should be a pretty good fit yeah for sure right let’s move

On to to England and we spoke about at the top of the Pod and definitely a manager that has backed him um a lot for for the country is Gareth Southgate um we spoke about it earlier you know named England player of the year uh for 2021 following the Euros of 20 20

Performances uh Jack you have to think on a shrewd sense if he’s to stand a chance of getting into this Euro Squad he needs to be playing football well you think so but then he has continue to play for England you know he was in the he was in the

September 20 you know earli this season he was in he was in the England squad in September he started the game in Scotland away he was an the England squad in October started the Italy home game he’s in the England scor in November started away at North Macedonia

So Southgate has been really loyal like Southgate is incredibly loyal to the players who he feels have always delivered for him and never let him down and you know we’ve seen this in recent years because look how long he stuck with say Harry MaGuire you know when Maguire wasn’t getting a game for

Manchester United Southgate stuck with him he’s stuck for a long time with Rah I mean not anymore but he stuck for a long time with Rahim Sterling when lots of people were calling for Sterling to be dropped and so if you continue to to perform well for Garett Southgate and if

Southgate thinks you’re an important part of the group both on and off the pitch then Southgate will be loyal to you um so in that sense I think it’s arguable that maybe Phillips didn’t even need to move for the sake of the Euros that said obviously it will you know

It’ll stand in a good stead if he is actually playing week in week out for West Ham or even playing a bit for West Ham because the you know it’s it’s going to be better for him to be playing football rather than not playing football at Manchester City yeah I’m

Phil you alluded to it earlier and it just got me thinking about him having to play football because he’s a player who’s been at Manchester City incredibly decorated as well Champions League you think of the League titles as well but hasn’t played much I mean how important

Would it then be to to actually be part of something you know like regardless of where where West Ham finished this season to actually be part of something and say yeah I’ve got my medals but actually I’ve played some bloody football yeah I think so I think so Jack’s probably right though Southgate

Does seem very wedded to the play players who who’ve played well for him previously and and the players who he he likes and trusts and I almost feel that for as long as Jordan Henderson is is getting into the England squad you suspect that Calvin Phillips will be

Comfortably in there too I mean admittedly it is different for Henderson now that he’s gone to to aak but when he was out in Saudi and you know I think by his own admission on the basis that he’s he’s packed that in already clearly not um clear not the sort of level that

Makes him think he’s he’s going to thrive in his his later years um he was still getting into the England squad and I think I think the fact that he was getting booed was less to do with the moral Panic of Saudi than it was to do

With the fact that Southgate was still leaning on this aging war warhorse and and that is kind of how Southgate tends to be he has these players that he likes that have done good service for him and and he’s he seems pretty Lo to to move

On from and I think he’ll realize that in the system he plays that Phillips can do still do good things for him and I think be very surprised that Phillips doesn’t go to to the Euros um but we are kind of in that era at the moment too of

I guess hybrid fullbacks who can play in Midfield as well and it is increasing the competition and I guess if you’re Phillips there’s probably only so long that you can sit not playing and saying to yourself yeah it’s fine I’ll get an England squad regardless it doesn’t

Matter because if you don’t play enough the day always comes doesn’t it yeah Phil I just wanted to say you make a good point obviously about four backs going into Midfield but I think one of the one of the key reasons that both hean Henderson have been around it

As well as South Kate loyalty there’s not a huge amount of alternatives are there you know if there was some in there let’s say if Bellingham played a bit deeper and he was the man there and you’d play let’s say Phillips oh sorry not Phillips bodden as lot more than

Number 10 then you could see the Midfield Moving on but the Midfield hasn’t really moved on has it and so I think it’s left the door slightly open for Phillips and Henderson despite their less and ideal circumstances and yeah like you say if they’ve still been in the squads recently as JPB

Outlined this this move to West Ham is is going to do him no harm whatsoever it probably cements his place in the Euros as long as he avoid injury oh I was just going to say I think what you’d say is he’s probably picked the right time to

Go needed to give it 18 months at City to see if it was going to work because if it does work there then that’s where you want to be but I think there’s got to be a line in the sand at some point and and this is it I mean clearly isn’t

Going to play much at city or wasn’t going to play much at city in the second half of the season so you have to you have to send the right messages I think don’t you you have to look like you actually want to be playing as opposed

To sitting in the background and and the timing’s right also I think I think Phillips even though South has been really really loyal to Phillips um I do think Phillips’s position in the squad is probably under more threat than it was six months ago or maybe 12 months

Ago simply because in the last few months we’ve seen as you mentioned Alexander Arnold coming into M that’s myland before we’ve seen Conor Gallagher doing better at Chelsea than people would have expected and he’s been more of a regular feature for England recently and I think he you he might

Well feel that he’s got a he’s got a claim to start or at least be part of the squad for the Euros Madison playing fantastically well in a Midfield three you know not playing as a 10 for Tottenham he’s playing in a Midfield he’s playing in Midfield Guardiola

Finally using foden in central position this season maybe a little bit further forward than some of these other guys but he’s playing centrally as well and Southgate is always I’ve always got the impression with Southgate that he was relu you centrally until Gua did but now that Guardiola is then maybe maybe that

Changes the thinking there and so there kind of there are more players who can play in that Midfield three along with rice and Bellingham than there were six or 12 months ago and I just think I just wonder whether there might be a voice in the back of Phillips’s mind saying you

Know you’ve got more you’ve got more competition on your hands to be on that flight to Germany on the 10th of June than you might have done a year ago yeah I wonder if the I was just thinking Jack he quite surprised how different the trajectories of maybe

Someone in that similar position Dean rice and Phillips have been so different you’d have expected them to both sort of push on in the same way whilst rice obviously we’ve seen at Arsenal right now you know one of the best in his position and Phillips has kind of

Stalled a little bit in that respect yeah so rice only rice only came into the England team about a year before Phillips so we really started seeing rice in 2019 and then Phillips so I think I mean Phil might know more than me on this I think Phillips was going to

Be in the England squad just before covid so the March 2020 International break which never happened in the end South was going to bring him in even though leads were still in the championship at that point uh then he had to wait until those kind of ridiculous empty Stadium games in

September October 2020 where the players were clearly out of Nick and they were just you know playing games for the sake of it when Phillips finally came in the team but um then you got to Euro 2020 and obviously it was rice and Phillips together and lots of lots of fans didn’t

Like that but in fact it worked it worked very effectively throughout the throughout the course of of the the tournament they started all seven games together rice and Phillips and it’s only really been I think what another thing which we got to mention here is the the

Rise and Rise of Jude Bellingham you know Bellingham you in EUR 2020 right Phillips was preferred to Bellingham um and it was only really so England had a game in Munich in June 2022 a Nations League game Phillips started ahead of Bellingham Phillips got injured after 10 minutes Bellingham came on and

Bellingham’s never really you know it’s been Bellingham I think has probably every serious game England since then so in that sense Phillips has been maybe a bit unlucky but I do think you’re right that if you look at that there kind of different Pathways of rice and Phillips

Pro I mean I do think rice is fundamentally better player for one but I also think rice has probably made better decisions about his Club football in the sense he stayed at West H you know he kind of had this longterm contract at West Ham stayed there for

Quite a while probably longer than some people would have expected him to but he you know cemented him his place as being West Ham’s most important player became Club Captain won a European Trophy and then finally he left and he went to Arsenal where again he’s a really really

Really important player whereas Phillips you feel like when he did leave he didn’t quite get the move right I was just goingon to say um in comparison to Phillips Dean rice also stepped forward at a slightly younger age you know so there is there’s not a huge gap between

Them but but rice does have three years on Phillips in the sense three years younger um and I think I mean Phillips was one of those players who was when he was in the championship was tempting Southgate to break that kind of not unbreakable but fairly strict druy had

Of not picking players below the Premier League Phillips kind of you know a little bit like like greish had done um it was just you know it was too tempting not to not to have a look um so for a while there was this discussion about you know is Phillips better than rice

Who’s going to go on to be the better player but when you actually looked at it with Phillips you were talking about a player who was already 25 26 with rice you were talking about somebody who was at exactly the same level um some people would have said playing better um other

People playing seemed playing worse but was younger um it was a much earlier stage of of his career um and it’s not when you look back at it now with Hite it’s not a big surprise that it looks like rice will go to bigger things yeah

I just wanted to say it’s funny actually in terms of transfers and rice and Phillips and picking their moves and stuff and what I was saying earlier about City they wouldn’t go for like a true many character who could come in for big money and expect to play because

They want Rod to play the whole time they don’t want to upset the apple cart the balance of the squad and they didn’t want to spend big money on that that kind of position either but they would spend big money on somebody who can play a bit further forward in Midfield and

Hold in Midfield like gundan for example and they would have done that with rice that was where The Rice interest came in but where it kind of founded apart from the fact they didn’t want to get into a bid war with Arsenal rice wanted to play as the hold

Midfielder more often whereas city were like well if you could come in you could play next to rodri you can make those runs forward into the box and you can do that and then when rodri is not there you can play holding Midfield and well I

Want to play hold to Midfield and that’s the issue they’ve got with rice in the summer but also generally speaking because if they can find another player who can do both great but they don’t want to go and spend big money on somebody who can only play in rodri’s

Position because they’ve already got him but then they haven’t got anybody not just Phillips cage can’t do it Stones can’t really do it he can go into Midfield but he can’t really stay there Nunes can’t do it all these midfielders they’ve got Bernardo can’t do it on his

Own nobody can do what rodri does and it it’s given them a a problem and we’ve kind of seen that with Phillips just to kind of bring us full circle yeah well whilst we’re on City actually uh Sam just heard that as we’re recording this city have announced the signing of clao

Evich uh e so my bad um from riverplate um any more on that yeah uh the thing is if you look at it so he’s coming from River Plate in January uh similar feed to julan Alvarez he’s going back to River Plate on loan and then obviously Alvarez came over started really well

Put him straight in the first team won the World Cup everyone knows you know how talented he is so people might be thinking the Sameer he started one proper game for River Senior Team he’s only just turned 18 at the start of this month um a has

Paid like 150 games for River Plate uh you know he was part of the squad that won the libertadores when that game was moved to to Madrid against bcka it was much more experienced and I mean from what I’ve seen I sat down and watched a

Lot of clips of him um he’s obviously talented but nowhere near City level at the moment I think once he finished that loan at River Plate which is for the whole of 2024 so taking your 209 he may then you know potentially go on loan to Jona City’s cister Club if that’s still

Allowed um but you know if he were to come to city now I don’t think he’d be as good as or as suitable as if we’re talking about types of player like with Phillips earlier as good as some of the players they’ve already got in the Eds because they’ve been playing that City

Way forever um then I think they are more rounded than AI but they’ve obviously decided to spend 12.5 million initially Plus on so they know he’s good he does look good but he is very raw so I wouldn’t be expecting to see him in a city he see him anytime soon possibly

Ever but certainly soon nice one well if you like Sam you can go on obviously online and look at videos or you can look at the profile we have on ET on the athletic and it’s available to read right now jents we’ll have to end it

There but thanks so much for your time Sam Phil and Jack as well and please make sure you leave us a little rating and review wherever you are listening from and also remember that you can subscribe to the athletic day for just2 or $2 a month for 12 months at the athletic.com

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