Should the Chicago Cubs make a push to add Emmanuel Clase & Robert Stephenson? | CHGO Cubs Podcast

Corey and Brendan discusses the pros and cons of an Emmanuel Clase trade. Other bullpen options such as Robert Stephenson are discussed as the Cubs attempt to bolster their 2024 bullpen. How would Clase compare to Alzolay’s 2024 projections? Should the Cubs just try to get several potential bullpen arms rather than spend big or trade high-value prospects on a select one or two arms?

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#Cubs #ChicagoCubs #FlyTheW

This is the chgo Cubs podcast my name is Corey I am joined as always by Brendan we are coming to you on Friday January 19th Brendan so welcome into the Friday edition we are not live this week for anyone asking but as we always say appreciate you in the live YouTube chat

Read the comments read the feedback later if you’re listening on your podcast feed wherever you get your podcasts welcome in to the Friday edition Brendan Cubs con has come and gone the excitement of the shoda imanaga signing the Michael Bush trade Etc maybe has worn down a little bit and now we

Are back in the muck back to being miserable Corey notable we’re back into reading the Cody Bellinger rumors the Scott Boris stuff what about Chapman this and that we’re back in that space a little bit the good news is 27 days from right now spring training begins pitchers and catchers report literally

In 27 days so we have that to look forward to yeah and I I was in the studio on Thursday afternoon with our guys Luke Cody and Ryan and brought up that uh your friend I I haven’t had the pleasure of meeting him yet but uh and

They corrected me on how to pronounce his last name Rich Biser field you butchered it that’s okay just call him just call him Rich call him rich rich yeah friend of the show Rich you can find him on Twitter of course uh he’s got some great photos of the guys that

Are already in Mesa guys like Matt Shaw um I think I saw Wiggins the uh the recent uh draft pick was there getting some work in so surgery post Tommy John getting his work absolutely a lot of guys there so we’ll be interesting as as some of the players

Trickle in uh I’m assuming you know we’ll start seeing Dan B Swanson Fielding ground balls either in Mesa or somewhere else uh very soon I I think he doesn’t feel ground balls during the off season he only hits is that that’s what I learned that’s what he said

Interesting yeah I mean you know at some point you just can’t improve anymore done it enough you just saturate your 10,000 hours required to be an expert he’s got more than that he’s got 100,000 hours so lot to talk about on this show we will talk a little bit about you know

The Cubs con going on uh you know in the aftermath because Brendan and I of course this is our first time on since those festivities we will talk about the third base discussion that remains ever present some comments from you know even Craig Council on Christopher morell’s versatility sort of having people

Reading into that again for like the millionth time we’ll talk about some bullpens stuff as we started to record this it kind of sounds like the Astros are circling the wagons with Josh hater uh it was kind of one of those when when we started recording this just for

Reference we were getting those reports that come before the report that he is signing with the Astros so is that true okay possibly sometimes those see so those don’t follow A to B but that’s what it see that’s what it sounds like okay okay so we’ll talk about that we’ll

Talk about all of that the the first thing I want to talk about Brendan and I don’t want to give we don’t have to give too much attention to where it came from because that’s giving them what they want but I did talk to Cody on Thursday

Afternoon and what he asked me for was a little more of a little more heated Brendan he likes when you’re you’re able to rant and kind of go along with him he appreciates it okay so listen we don’t have to mention where it came from but

If you wanted to take a couple minutes to vehemently defend Nico Herer and explain why he should be in any top 10 any top five setting me up to to deliver a a speech you could probably give in your sleep I mean it’s absolute [ __ ]

Number one I mean how do you make a list where one of your guys on that list has 300 Major League plate appearances in Zach Gila from from Oakland great player here don’t get me wrong how do you make a list when you know a 10-year-old can

Go to fangraphs.com you don’t even have to type in www anymore just fangraphs.com you go to leaderboard you sort by second baseman you click on the war on the top right number one Nico Herer not number two not number three not number four not even number 10

Number one Nico horer how do you and then you leave off aie Alby that’s a slap in the face the only explanation I have for why niiko horer was left off that list is because of Dan M Swanson because Aussie albz was his second BL second base double play partner too and

The only explanation is you can’t have Wilson users on that list the the MLB network will not give credit to a second baseman playing with Dan B Swanson that’s right you have to spread out your Rawlings users to meet your quota that majorly baseball has with Rawlings

That’s the only explanation Cory but it really like realistically whoever’s making those list you have with the MLB Network some people may not know what we’re talking about the MLB Network put out a fan list that didn’t have Nico at all for the top 10 second not even Allie

Al though and their expert list I’m not sure who compiled it had Nico at 10th which by any metric is just objectively wrong I will I will say if they’re doing this intentionally to troll people I I was hoping they would do that so I can

Talk about this I love hate talking when people leave off nicoo or Danby Swanson off these list it it gives me energy so I’m happy they did that and I I think it was on Twitter that a friend of the program Brett Taylor on the Bleacher Nation account in response to all the

Conversation that came from those lists was like look if one thing it’s reminding all of us of just how good Nico Herer is because everybody’s coming out and explaining you know no Nico what are you crazy he does this he does this he does this it’s like really good ball

Player like you didn’t need Brendon Brendan and I to tell you that but you know D he’s a really good ball player we are forgetting what it means to be a good major league baseball player I’m worried about the future I’m worried about these teenage kids coming up they will never

Understand I I this is an old head thing I think I mean this was the people the MLB Network I don’t think this has anything to do with you well they should all be fired fire every single person at the MLB network besides pack I like Poli

Our friend fire everyone else I don’t care if there’s ever a fireable offense is what I saw what was it Wednesday night embarrassing if I were Major League Baseball I would forget about the pitch clock changes I would fire every single person as my first priority Target get going Theo that’s what I

Would say really what needs to happen is Wilson should be paying you like that’s the thing you’re you’re the most outspoken Wilson Athletics person I think I know they make a quality product listen I this is free advertising I don’t just advertise for the hell of it

You know either I like the product or yeah okay anyway niik Herer very good definitely within the top 10 and should be much higher in any second base list you’re doing say again you you did probably laugh when you saw him that low cuz you knew what was going to come like

You knew this would happened the response you would get well I I mean from you too but like it is one of those things I think sometimes you and I get lost in our bits a little bit I also love Nico Herer he plays on the c talk

You know what I mean you’re not you’re not allowed to steal my bit see that’s what I mean when it was John Lester it would be like well Brendan can’t Brendan is also allowed to like John Lester they’re on the yeah but I can’t I’m only allowed at a certain

Number of minutes to talk about we can’t steal each other’s thing but we are all rooting for the same team did you tweet that collage of niik Herer today from the chdo account so Cody did but obviously I made it you can stealing my content I knew that was from you you’re

Stealing my content you know whatever anyway next uh before we get into some of the offseason discussion because again a lot of this is just rumor innuendo projecting stuff and we’ve done a lot of that so we will do some of it because of what is being talked about

About the Cubs I think was Buster only said you know Executives expect them to win the rest of the off season which as we talked on Thursday with Cody Luke and Ryan like all right we’ll do it already you know we heard that at the beginning

Of the off season too so like sure but go ahead and do it two things uh one I would direct you to the chdo sports YouTube channel chdo Cubs Twitter page we’ll tweet out all these links uh but our guys I believe Luke Ryan and Jared were able to sit

Down with some of the Cubs at Cubs con and got some really great interviews I I know they’ve already aired a conversation with Jordan wicks for sure I think amongst others and I think some of them are going to continue to trickle out uh but really good stuff um watching

Those interviews and some really great questions from the guys at the chdo Cubs team from Cubs con weekend so do check that out do seek out those interviews I think some of them are being aired as part of the weekly shows then they’ll go on the CH Sports YouTube channel so do

Check those out second thing because it’s you and me Brendan we have to do this okay okay we threatened reminising about random guys a couple weeks ago so we don’t have to do that but when the Chicago they’re pandering directly to you and me and Cody I think when the

Chicago Cubs tell everyone that they are going to induct Aramis Ramirez and Carrie Wood into their Hall of Fame I don’t care if Cubs Conan was three weeks ago it wasn’t but I don’t care how D outdated it is or how late Brendan and I are to the conversation because of when

Our show airs but we were talking about Aramis Ramirez and Carrie Wood because they deserve to constantly be talked about Brendan we talked about Oris Ramirez for years how we were hoping the Cubs would give him his Due Time well-deserved time and they never did I I personally thought it was offensive

When they just gave him the wriggly number and that was it before I mean you never know like where he’s living and all this other stuff but yeah care we got Zoom you and I are talking across the country right now Zoom him in I don’t know but it was emotional to see

Aramas come up there you have you know his son Carrie Wood’s son given that uh video narrative pretty cool but just the numbers from Aramis especially when you compare it to what you see today crazy we’re talking about in 2004 his first full year with the Cubs 398 waa

Following year 392 381 386 3 386 393 I mean what more could you possibly want from a corner infielder a third baseman and one of my favorite memories about Aramis among several several walk-off hits home runs clutch hits when he came back from dislocating his shoulder you you knew he was not right

He was swinging with two arms on the follow through and he was getting so much Flack for years about being lazy or being not into it and here’s your Cornerstone Slugger every year being consistent coming back playing through injury and slugging hitting home he one home run in Washington with the two-and

Follow through which he never did and at that moment I’m like oh this this guy this guy’s crazy he’s a team player he wants to win he doesn’t come off as being the showboat over-the-top guy he just plays baseball and it’s a consistent run producer he is more than

Deserving of this Hall of Fame induction and I hope they keep him around for other festivities in years to come yeah absolutely I I think you know Carrie Wood you know we we’ve talked about plenty and I think he gets uh his just do from the Cubs and baseball in general

Um but Ramirez is one of those that yeah you and I have talked for a long time about him and Derek Lee in particular like really wanting them to get their flowers and I can’t speak for different generations of the fan base but I know

For people like you and I who are around a similar age and who were teenagers in 2003 and stuff like that like these guys mean the world of course like everybody wants Sammy back and and stuff like that but Aramis Ramirez drik Lee like those

Were the dudes you know I have a story about you with Derek Lee so we were in Dodger Stadium 2017 I believe I think it may have been a Cubs game NLCS no it was a regular season game it may have been the World Baseball Classic too I forget

Uh and Derek Lee is sitting kind of behind home PL oh with noar yeah and we’re we’re like you know pregame and you just sto cold in your thought process I could see it in your face and you just stop you go that’s that’s Derek Lee it was as if

You were seeing the Messiah himself come back down like the the glow from your face was phenomenal I always remember that well and I you know and this is like a random thing but like I had the opportunity when they played in Vegas I think ahead of the 07 season 08 season

It was around that time because I remember certain guys that it was it was around spring training right yeah yeah uh I I remember you know having the opportunity to like go on the field and just like you know get some autographs wait you know behind the Rope or

Whatever with some other people and and get some autographs and just a like the the quickest anecdote like speaking to Carrie Wood and Derrik Lee I don’t recall if I I don’t think I met Aramis remirez uh but speaking to the two of them just even briefly as nice as as can

Possibly be just exactly as a kid at the time like exactly the interaction that you would want with these people who you just like absolutely idolize and can’t believe that you’re meeting uh Derk Lee is not in this Cubs Hall of Fame yet I

Would hope Som he will be he will be but I’m I’m very happy for RIS Ramirez and I of course him and Len Casper like forever tied together in Cubs lore with the Brewers walkoff like you know I just think like one of the most iconic Cubs

Plays of the last several decades so certain things come up all the time you know the the walkoff against the wh side like he obviously has some like key moments that everybody sees all the time I it’s it’s an obvious moment but I think so much about the Grand Slam that

He hits in Miami and to put the Cubs up 3-1 early moonshot too moonshot isn’t that off Don trell too maybe I forget who was actually uh I’ll look it up while I’m talking but multitasker over there the the thing that that jumps out about that

Especially is like this is a guy who comes over in that trade midseason and just absolutely delivers for that team and then of course goes on to build his own like you know Cubs Legend and career as he’s starting this next season with the team but like the way that he came

Over in a trade and just immediately injects life into that lineup just something that I’ll never well the The Narrative too was the Cubs have not had a good third basem since Ron Santa I I remember you know parents talking about this grandparents talking about this

Cousins Etc so at my time grow growing up 2003 2004 having a good third basem was something that other fans I saw wanted and aramas immediately filled that void too and he was so smooth that third B it it was off d trell by the way

So this is like Prime dant Willis and Ramirez is like N I got it I I hated dant Willis man you talk about a pitchure that put fear into my him and Josh Becket when they were in the bullpen man I was a miserable mess I

Hate those guys sorry he’s nice but I think as a kid dantrell was that first experience I had and maybe Roger Clemens because it was around uh that was a few years later I think but like dantrell was that first one where as a Young

Baseball fan I remember if he was on the the other side for the probable pitcher that night that was my first experience with like oh if the Marlin score a single run this game sced that kind of like attitude yeah yeah I was almost getting I swear to God this thought came

To me when I was watching the World Series in 2016 uh in game five I know wish they you know who won I know we always forget about this that the Cubs won let me put that preface in there the Cubs won that World Series in game five

Before Bowers surrendered that home run to uh uh Chris Bryant when they were showing the Cleveland uh bullpen the thought came to me oh my goder yeah yeah this like oh my God this reminds me of Josh Becket dant Wills 2003 it put me right into my 10-year-old miserable self

That moment yeah but we won well as it would turn out Andrew Miller was not unhitable um he was very getable by a what I don’t remember at the time a 38-year-old backup catcher so yeah David Ross anyway very happy about the Ramis Ramirez and ker wood thing and I’m

Excited that that means throughout this season will get more content from them and then of course when they’re actually inducted and they they have that day at Wrigley Field that’ll be a really amazing day so very happy for Aramis Carrie of course but Carrie is so much a

Part of the Chicago Cubs and cubs culture um so sort of a foregone conclusion I think Aramis getting his flowers like this is uh something that has happened less than you would think der’s next you know Eric Lee maybe Carlos and brono perhaps put prior in

There when the Dodgers come to town man don’t do that to me man you’re gonna put me in a sad mood yeah you know put Samy Sosa in there how about that H hey I present company is all in favor of that I know a lot of people have different

Opinions on that that’s a conversation for a different day but I know uh a long Bron and I had a vote the vote would be yes so oh absolutely anyway very happy about that like I said the Cubs kind of pandering to us specifically um but I am

Very much looking forward to you know digging into some I’m sure Marquee will have some good old Aramis Ramirez highlights and stuff that we’ve forgotten um so I I very much look forward to that I’m I’m watching the because I was looking for it just going

Through the loop well the the the Grand Slam off dantrell in the 2003 NLCS is sort of playing in the background and like just you know I’m remembering like the the swag that Ramirez would have sometimes when he would hit the homers and watch him kind of a not quite a

Sammy hop but like you know shrugging the shoulders like oh yeah I got that like it he was understated but there were times where he he he let a little bit of a shule he had that Swag yeah he was he was understated but he did have

It yeah man um anyway since I assume aramas from Mir has listened to this podcast we love oh he did say his favorite player to watch is Nico Herer so he understands that’s what I mean mean when he’s left off this ball player’s ball player yes they are doing

Fans a disservice by not recognizing the greatness of gold Glover yeah Nico Horner all right all right so uh let’s hit our first ad break here and then we will come back we’ll come back and jump into the bullpen Market a little bit just want to update on that and then

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$350 off discount when they use promo code chgo restrictions do apply see empiretoday.com chgo for details all right Brenan so really just wanted to uh follow up on something I said at the beginning uh and basically it was some of the local Astros beat talking about the Astros making a push

For Josh hater and then of course Ken Rosenthal you know is a local beat writer with the athletic then of course Ken Rosenthal is like here’s the story on the connection but usually like tomorrow it’ll be like sources Josh hater in agreement with Astros not always but typically when you see that

Specific smoke especially kind of out of nowhere it is usually a you see Ken Rosenthal putting his name on it then you know it’s gonna happen so just bringing that up because it is something that has been connected to the Cubs obviously they’re looking in the relief

Market and of course Craig Council has experien with Josh hater you and I have talked a little bit about that specifically uh on the show on Thursday with Luke Cody and Ryan talked a little bit about some of the Emanuel class uh rumors with the Guardians of course you

Know we sort of started this offseason talking about Shane Bieber and now we’ve kind of moved to their closer uh I mentioned to a really good thread on Twitter from friend of the program Greg zomac who was highlighting less costly options if the Cubs and Guardians were indeed trying to

Find something some cost controlled relievers that are not in that Elite tier but that would certainly help the Cubs Bullpen so I thought that was an interesting discussion too if hater is indeed off the market which again as I always say you know check the Tim stamp of this podcast and

Remember I’m speaking as with the news I currently have let’s say hater does go to the Astros which was not ever really something I don’t think you and I were too particularly keen on just given what the price might be for a 29-year-old who’s been pretty remarkably consistent in his career and

Hater how would you like to see the Cubs continue to evaluate their Bullpen we heard from Jed Hoyer at Cubs con and I I I did say this on the show on Thursday he did the thing that you typically don’t like which is where he points out

A serious flaw in his own roster just don’t say and then we have to wait for hopefully him to address that but he you know pretty if I was paraphrasing he the bullpen was really bad last year and a big part of why they didn’t make the

Playoffs and they need to make it better for this coming year and they’re not done doing that so how how would you like to see them go about that when you think about what the price might be for class is that something that you’re interested in given his contract his age things like

That or are you preferring maybe the alternative route that our friend Greg suggested which is load up on some useful cost controlled guys but don’t pay a premium either in dollars or in prospects for that upper tier of reliever yeah that’s a difficult question it’s it’s always under my impression that these

Moves are made with consideration to the luxury tax that’s how it was last season with the former signing versus going out spending more money at the time on you know Andrew shaan for example this offseason right now the Cubs currently stand at $40 million with the imanaga signing underneath that

First TI of the luxury tax so $40 million that’s a lot of money that you can in theory devote toter at the same time he could be making 20 million per year which might restrict the Cub’s ability then to bring in Bellinger in addition to maybe

Another depth piece in the form of a starting pitcher relever or uh position player as well I see the market I see class say I see the value in having a consistent reliever in class at the same time I also do have concerns and questions about projecting

Class day for the next three years because the price tag to get someone like him his value is supposedly pretty high of course I want a Class A on the CBS I be stupid to say he doesn’t make sense yeah the goal is to get someone as

Good as him is it going to cost Kade Horton is it going to cost Owen and it cost some of these higher prospects I’m not sure I don’t know what the value well and if it does like no just come on for for a relief pitcher no so I’m not

I’m not doing that and I understand we talked about it on the show on Thursday he’s under contract I think until 2026 for an average of $4 million a year and then an option from the club in 27 and 28 so it’s a very friendly contract if

He is that level of reliever but like it depends the it depends for a reliever and I know you’re not saying to do that but like come on like hang up the phone right away no way I if when I talk about CL if it’s going to be you know Kade

Horton it’s going to be those top etron Ty prospects no uh the main reason let’s let’s talk about CL though so why why is that the case so he has a track record of consistent success 70 innings in 2021 73 2022 73 last year ER in those three

Seasons 1.3 1.4 and then it went down or rather up last season to 3.2 we have talked and this is my fan preference you and I have talked I want closers that get whiffs one of the reasons why you and I like aleli but are still somewhat questionable about his

Long-term role is principally because he does not get whiffs CL has a worse whiff rate than adur aleli last season it was 25% that’s about League average for a major league pitcher now if you look at closer specifically I don’t know what the actual average is I would project

Below average and if that’s going to cost me a top tier Prospect no thank you no thanks yeah not at all not even thinking about it and I’m not even seriously considering that to be potential guy even you know even if we were talking about someone who who had a

Higher whiff rate like even just on principle like I just don’t believe in trading I I don’t believe in trading a top tier Prospect as a starting pitcher or a position player for a relief pitcher I just don’t I I I think the only time I would do that is when the

Cubs did it before which is like when in uh at trade deadline in 2016 uh and they end up going on to win the World Series world World Series correct so that that’s the only time just on principle now again like each move is not the same each you know if we’re

Talking about a pitching Prospect and a relief pitcher of course there may be combinations of this where you could create it and I would say yes but I’m saying as a general principle unless you’re acquiring a relief pitcher that you genuinely believe is like the last piece that’s pushing you over

To win the World Series you’re looking across at the Braves the Dodgers the rest of the national league and you’re saying the one thing this team needs to be better than them to beat these teams in the playoffs is a closer then at the deadline that’s a different discussion

Because you’re you’re talking about a particular opportunity to win a title where the Cubs are at right now with the amount of holes that they have and really with how like weak the state of the division is it doesn’t mean this team shouldn’t get better but like top

Prospects for a closer no I’m not I’m not doing it I’m not even entertaining it yeah I the question will you never want to trade prospects for relievers that’s fair but let’s if you if you really think about what you’re getting in return relievers of class’s value are

Extremely value so I don’t want I don’t want to downgrade that yeah yeah so for class if you if you look at just a wind’s perspective 2.2 war in 21 2.3 and 22 and 1.7 last year in just 70 innings in the highest leverage of moments there is

Incredible value there yeah where I’m reserved with relievers is that baseball has changed so much in the past six seven years and as a result it’s difficult for me to Envision long-term relievers having consistent success and simultaneously if we talk about projecting guys in the future on this

Team we’re talking about what are the alternatives an example with bush and Bellinger what are the alternatives to Bellinger one of them now is Bush likewise what are the alternatives to class A the alternative is well the Cubs have had this capacity to produce High leverage relievers at

Unexpected rates does that mean don’t go out and sign relievers no but you still have to consider what is the likelihood you can get a Class A equivalent without giving up substantial value in the form of a top 10 top 20 Prospect and because of that because there is a possibility

That does happen I would be shocked if Jed actually goes and trades Class A and I would agree with Greg Zac who whose tweet thread this morning was good looking at lower Bud type options well and you know again we we I believe the Cubs can win that way of course you want

An elite dominant closer and lights out Bullpen Etc but one of the things that held them back last year was really just not having enough trustworthy guys that could could get outs not necessarily guys that were Elite super number one tier relievers just reliable guys that

Could consistently get out by the end of the season they had about three and then when those guys wore down or got hurt it went from three to two to one to zero it felt like by the end of it so I think that I I think the options like Greg was

Pointing out it’s like yeah if you can build that stable to five six seven you know and again hopefully you’re having some experience from guys like Luke little Jose quas alante who they just got from the Dodgers and and any number of the guys that have already been in

The Cub system and part of their pen you do hope you can piece some of that together better than you did last year now again they do need to continue to go out and add depth but I just I’m agreeing with you that I don’t think the

Need is pressing to the point that you have to panic and give up some of your top prospects for a reliever it’s just all depends it all depends what they do too with the rest of the roster you know if you’re going to go out and get a

Reliever it’s going to prohibit you from getting other guys then you have to question that and given how J operated I expect that to not happen I would I think the interesting part with class though is that you know at 4 million a year like I don’t think that’s

Preventing anybody from doing anything no but given how risk averse front office has been yeah I look at class’s profile just being a reliever in general in Modern Baseball without getting whiffs introduces a degree of risk that the front office has not accepted in the past two three years I’d be florid if

They do that and you look at someone like Robert Stevenson for example just gonna say that yeah I I I can read your mind he’s someone I’m interested in for sure but how he became the Target that you and I are talking about is also worth mentioning how did he become

Robert Stevenson this 30-year-old reliever who now might make1 12 million per year entering age now 31 he’s someone who came over and had a k perine of under nine batters in 2022 with an erra of 5.5 all of a sudden this 31y old is going to be making 10 12 million per

Year how he did it is based on a developmental system in Tampa Bay that leveraged and optimize every single ounce of potential in him he got acquired by Tampa immediately Tampa says you know what your cutter is kind of interesting he didn’t throw a cutter in

April or May he was throwing Cutters at 75% rates with Tampa Bay Corey this is someone who developed a new pitch with a new team and that became a dominant pitch D so Robert Stevenson yeah men interested in him but again 10 million 12 million the history the age there’s a

Degree of uncertainty there that even for that price tag I’m not particularly thrilled about so I don’t I don’t know it depends on who the alternative guys are if it means the Cubs are going to go out to Cleveland and get some of those mid-tier guys with potential and give up

Mid-tier prospects that is my preference even as crazy as it sounds giving out 10 12 14 million for Stevenson over a 2year deal for a oneyear deal sure give him like 15 20 million I’m fine with that I think my hope for it is that Jed doesn’t

Overcorrect and I don’t expect him to because that’s not really hiso the bullpen wasn’t good enough last year they should have addressed it at the deadline it was really obvious that it was going to wear down and was not going to be trustworthy in exactly the way

That it played out but at the same time and that was kind of my concern with like the hater situation which again as you and I record this is technically still unresolved by the way hater sucked in San Diego when he got traded I mean he was awful well San Diego has bad

Vibes I don’t know he was awful he had like a seven ER in that second half in 2022 he got demoted he could he could loc fast last year he was great 2022 he was traded from Milwaukee to San Diego he was the worst pitcher on that staff I

Watched San dieg against every day I I I don’t know if I trust anything that goes on there so well be careful yeah they do have weird vies but but I’m just saying that’s part of Team not that I know you you know I know you live in the city

That’s how I well you know sometimes it’s hard to tell with you but from a baseball perspective in in hater that’s part of the equation too you have to factor that in oh he had two months or he was demoted or he lost his closer gck where he couldn’t locate a fastball what

Is the likelihood that happens you don’t want to ride the Craig Kimbrell roller coaster again oh my God but that was different that was only for 13 million per year no I was saying in terms of like there’s a moment where it’s like this guy doesn’t does look like he knows

Where the ball is going but at least he’s going to cost half the price as hater was random question let me finish my thought and then I’ll a random question what I was saying is I don’t want Jed to overcorrect the bullpen was I you if you

Had to pick an Achilles heel for this team last year I think it was the bullpen especially in the second half especially in that September collapse yeah that to me the best strategy is to make it better not to panic and spend a ton of money or go out and

Try to make the biggest splash to make it better just make it better and you can make it better by making several smaller moves that ultimately make the entire thing the the entire system better but it’s not something where just go get the most expensive reliever that

You can or pay the biggest price in a trade because the bullpen cost us a season last year like I I don’t think it’s that dire and that’s not usually the best way to address problems so that was part of my reservation with hater in

The first place like if if he was who he was last year and who he was in Milwaukee of course you want that in the Cubs Bullpen again I don’t like him so I’m I wasn’t rooting for this deal it was weird on the Thursday in the chat I

Was like I don’t like him and you know some people brought up the tweets which of course is part of the reason but but the main he was the Brewers closer for like six years why would I like the guy I don’t like his body language some of

The folks in the chat were like why doesn’t he like Josh hater why would I like Josh haer Give Me One Reason to like Josh haer like any baseball players other than Cubs there’s only a few that actually gave up a homer to ilaro Vargas that was cool that was something I liked

About Josh ha Brewers closer during their like best period why would I like it I don’t he’s a schmuck I don’t want him right and and yeah anyway all I was saying was part of my reservation with it was this might be a big contract he’s

Only 29 there’s probably going to be a big market for him I don’t want to overpay just because the bullpen cost us a playoff spot or was one of the big reasons for it last year you can make the bullpen better without like going crazy to fix it don’t correct it’s all

Contextual too if this team were a 92 win team then ha hater at 20 million I might consider that but we have to add context does matter yeah we have to add and they still have other stuff to do in this off we have to add eight wins

Somehow to even get to that point so the the question I was going to ask you before we jump to our second ad break here was in the middle of that 2020 season when okay like or or 2019 right but 2020 was the beginning portion when Craig couldn’t find the strike zone if

I’m remembering correctly yes that’s correct the end of 2019 he was just serving up homers but uh beginning 2020 couldn’t find the strike zone in that moment if I had told you not only did he figure it out with the Cubs to the point that he gets traded they

Have value in him enough to trade him at the deadline but then a few years later one of the best teams in the American League would give him a contract to come in and be his closer like four years from that point when you were watching

Him throw the the ball nowhere near the strike zone would you have believed me if I told you that no AB I wouldn’t have I was on record as being like I this guy’s toast I can’t believe he’s still pitching alone demanding that typee of value he’s the outlier he’s the outlier

But I mean to to to my credit though I I I forecasted his value for the Cubs you threw him in the garbage can yes in 2019 and there’s there was this audio record of that you hated kre h i I was off it yes that is true yeah crazy though

That’s the volatility of relievers that’s the thing yeah no that’s true so all right uh let’s do the second ad break here we’ll come back around finish up some discussion on third baseman first ad break here from our sponsor Midtown athletic Midtown Athletic Club I’ve seen those pictures videos of all their

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More information visit Ray cdjr in Fox Lake or raccd jr.com serving the community since 1963 all right Brandon uh so want to talk a little bit about third base and we’ll start the conversation you and I and I think the the rest of the chdo cups team we’ve

Talked a lot about Christopher Morell so I don’t want to Center this conversation too much on Christopher Morell specifically but I will read these quotes about Christopher Morel because I think it sets up the rest of the conversation uh so okay from Cubs con we had Craig councel talking about

Christopher Morell he said quote we’re going to have to at some point decide where we focus a lot of the work on with Christopher and we might get that wrong at the start but his versatility is something that is going to get him on the field that I think gives the team a

Floor if that makes sense so then I love that qu I love that quilt then Carter Hawkins okay what he Council ended that quote by saying that’s what versatile players do and that’s what I think Christopher is going to do for the Cubs talking about you know different days different positions

Guys need a rest things like that and and making a before you read Carter’s quote just quick injection what he was describing Council was a fail fast approach and he used the preface at some point we are going to have to dot dot dot that’s exactly the

Process I was hoping the Cubs would deploy over the past two years to get to the point where they’re saying at some point we may fail at first but they didn’t do that for some of their guys including Morel including mvis that’s where the differentiating factor with

Council is I think you’re going to get more aggression and more willingness to try new things and if it fails that’s a good thing you cross it out and you start to iterate over and over again yes uh agreed so one of my main takeaways from Cubs con was Craig cil’s

A genius Craig counil is great he’s a genius he’s great he says is is very good and and again it was one of those things where not to relitigate the the David Ross stuff or anything like that but one of the main things that I didn’t

Like about Ross was when I didn’t agree with some of his decisions I didn’t find his answers on them to be particularly satisfactory or convincing um you know thinking about like the wisdom bunt or things like that like I just remember his answers not really being not really explaining his position

In a way that I went oh I I didn’t consider that Ryan Herrera can explain it better for you if you’re really curious about is gonna love that joke um but something I’ve liked about Craig in the early going he’s very thorough and and articulate in his thoughts and

Strategies and the way he’s going about certain decisions doesn’t necessarily mean he’s always going to be right but when I read his thought process on things you have the feeling of like this guy’s smarter than me he has a really wellth thought out reason for doing it and

So go ahead I’m G to trust him with Ross a lot of the time it was like I don’t really get that feeling he doesn’t have a lot of like conviction or theory behind what he’s saying was just like yeah you know he’s he a gritty guy we

Wanted him to get going or and it’s like well that’s not really an answer to to something you know so yeah and I I always thought Council was this nerdy guy or whatever he has personality he’s wearing uh like a hoodie underneath a Blazer I’m like who the hell is this guy

Weing well I mean listen to be fair like you know you know Dansby showing up Pedro stroke was also in the building you got to up your style game at I mean he’s definitely was years past teams the standard May been a little lower a little different I I think you know

During the the leester Travis Wood John Lackey years you know maybe some camo shorts or I Know Travis would like to wear that denim vest or you know what just no shirt either no that’s what I’m saying he would start in the denim vest but then it would come off eventually

Naturally uh but you know now you’ve got Dansby Ian hap has modeled for some clothes like you got to kind of step your game up a little I mean I will say the the whole like hoodie underneath the Blazer is not much my thing you know I

Don’t think I could rock it like Council can but pull it off yeah but I don’t feel like it the chat’s going to say you have the hair to pull it off but oh I getting back to Morel and getting into the third base conversation um Carter Hawkins discussing Morel said quote I

Mean you could put all our chips in one spot or we can put half our chips in one and the other I don’t know that one is a better answer or not our decision right now is to play him at multiple places and to the extent we feel like there’s

Better ODS in one will continue to put more chips there but it’s just the Strategic plan we have at this moment one I love because I do this sometimes like he started you know comparing it to like chips and cards and he couldn’t get off it for the entire the entire quote

The whole thing becomes about chips because he started it that way I do love that I respect that but one I would caution and this is similar to other other things you have to remember that they are speaking with the roster that they currently have if they were going

To sign a third baseman Carter Hawkins is not going to say that so when he’s talking about well right now we’re thinking of playing him in multiple places that can always change because they can change the roster they’re speaking about right now and I remember that too it happened with bush and and

Talking about him playing at first base as I remember I think it was sahadev Sharma from the athletic said that that’s the plan for him right now is to play for first base operative word right now if they sign a first baseman then he might play somewhere else as the roster

Currently is constructed his best opportunity would be at first base so card is always subject to change that’s the the main lesson here but when they’re speaking they’re not going to tip their hand about other moves they might make right now they would probably all say PCA and talkman are playing

Center field unless Cody Bellinger walks through the door you know so just keep that in mind I don’t I don’t mind this I know we’ve wanted them to find Morel a position but this is clearly something that everyone in the organization is thinking about now you have Craig

Council who prior was an outside voice coming in and he’s offering his opinion so I’m gonna let them figure this out with Christopher obviously I like you I wish they had just planted him at third base two years ago and maybe we wouldn’t be having this discussion but we’ll see

Where they go from here now the question from that goes if Morell is roving around even in their plan right now if he’s roving around who is playing Third Base every day do they look at someone like Matt Chapman and hope that that market like they’re hoping with Cody Bellinger just doesn’t

Come to those two players and instead comes to Jed Hoyer perhaps I’m not sure do they plan on some sort of platoon like they did last year with some of the same guys I’m not sure the only thing I’m going to say and I’m just going to

Get this out of the way cuz I want you to talk about Chapman or some other things don’t say his name no I’m going to because I want to be on record on this I don’t care what they do the rest of this offseason if this team starts

The year giving reps at third base starting reps to Nick magal I am going to be furious absolutely Furious thank you thank you thank you for at least yeah not letting me go off on that tangent you’re welcome thank you the Chicago Cubs can do better than a third

Baseman that can’t hit at a League average level and can’t hit the ball to the warning track I commend fine depth player starting third baseman yeah no no I commend Magic’s attitude I commend him for learning the position admirably performing well defensively guy can’t

Hit for me this is the Chicago Cubs in a weak division you have to do better because the projection offensively is so shallow it’s a deser fine platoon sure it’s a disservice to the entire roster I guess what I’m saying is is that whatever moves they make you cannot go

Into the season saying like yeah we’re going to split time with magadle and master bony no no no no no no it’s a good question though what do they do at third base right now Patrick wisdom Christopher Morell Nick magical is part of that equation despite our

Reservations I am Master bony so is Master bony and athletically it does appear as if Master bony is a little bit more it’s all relative so don’t twist these words but higher ceiling given he can play multiple positions with a little bit more fast twitchiness he’s played Short

Stop very recently second base Third Base has a better propensity to Dy the ball Gap to Gap so those are the four guys Master bony magical wisdom and Morell if you give counil those four options I would bet he can figure it out I’m not not GNA lie I think the way

Wisdom can be used against the lefties for a platoon situation does make some sense but bear with me but what are the alternatives on the market one alternative is Matt Chapman you are working yourself up in a Tiss no I’m I’m working myself up because as we’re

Talking about this it’s like if you right now we’re only hoping that they bring back Bellinger we we haven’t even added anything else on offense that bush sure but like they don’t have Bellinger so if they resign Bellinger they’ve gotten back to around the level of the

End of last year we’ve said a bunch don’t compare it to April of 2023 it’s not really the same offensive group if if that’s all they do and we’re you third base is the same group of platoon players I’m not going to be particularly pleased with that I don’t

Like the team’s not in a better spot the team’s only in a better spot if PCA immediately turns into the player you’ve dreamed on and Michael Bush starts to hit listen listen I’m not arguing at I’m I’m not arguing with you I’m arguing at you I okay that’s an interesting way put

It I if you want to be explicit the Cubs have the 17th projected offensive war in Major League Baseball I don’t care how they become a top seven team but get there I I don’t care if they go into the year with those four guys at third base if

They figure it out out around the diamond I don’t care how it happens yeah but if you look at the current roster right now the voids on this team are threefold third base center field and first base there’s not enough stability at the top tier at the projection to

Justify any of these guys if you want to win the division if you go into the year with this current roster it’s stupid to bet on those four third basemen it’s stupid to bet on Bush mvis and PCA as well this is not good enough a 17th

Projected War right now is not good enough so does that mean going out and signing Matt Chapman maybe for 20 million yes maybe does it mean you sign Chapman and Bellinger and you make these crazy trades and you risk it and you go above the second thir luxury tax maybe

If the opportunity is there this is what I will say though where I always think about this and especially when you use the the the metaphor with the chips and and Carter Hawkins I in the back of my mind am reserved about the front office because sometimes I feel as if they have

A better understanding of probability than what actually is represented by reality and I feel as if sometimes they make moves based on a higher degree of confidence some of these probabilities and projections but I don’t really think that’s necessarily the case in where I would like them to be different is

Taking a little bit more risk and that’s risk at the developmental level which they’re starting to do in drafting guys and having downn caner bits and promoting some of their internal guys developmentally but I need more risk from this front office I can’t go into a

Year as an 87 win team right now Corey and that is probably the likely outcome but if they can go out and improve elsewhere at their base to push that tier of when projection 90 sure I’m fine with Chapman and I’m also fine with those four third Bas but it has to come

Those improvements have to come elsewhere yeah you’re working me up well no I mean it’s just it’s just the conversation we we’ve also seen uh a lot that Matt Shaw is working exclusively at third base and you know is that is that a fair assessment though I feel like with the front

Office especially with the imanaga signings and the bush trade and everything I keep saying this like the front office is making good moves I I like generally what they’re doing but I really feel as that there’s not enough push back sometimes where I feel what well not from you specifically but

Just generally speaking sometimes I feel as if we talk about these moves as if there’s only a certain like a multiple choice test where you pick a b c d and I’m talking about I want someone to write the damn dissertation I want someone to put the book out where

They’re changing the game I don’t want the front office to let’s use Carter Hawkins analogy play by the book I don’t want to just double down when they dealer sh 11 I don’t want to hit when the dealer was shown 16 even though my odds suck I want to rewrite the book so

My expectation for the front office is go out and do some crazy stuff and we’ve yet to see that these moves are great imanaga signing is awesome for 52 million I love that but I’m sick of having these conversations that’s why I’m getting myself worked up over this I

Don’t want to talk about probabilities and putting your chips in I want I I don’t want to talk about that at all I want it to be obvious and how you get there I don’t know but it’s not ABC or D and I feel as if sometimes we don’t talk

About it like that it’s always like oh what else could be done what are you suggesting what are you proposing I hate having those conversations no I I I hear you I think you know what got me even just worked up or thinking about it is just again like

They don’t have Cody Bellinger back so they’re not at that level and you’re you’re talking about a position where we’re it’s the same group as last year like how the team the offense isn’t better at all so I that just isn’t going to work for me again you know what the

Counter to that Cody Bellinger is not walking through that door yet yeah but you know what the counter to that point is hit me well if you bring back the same team as last year they were statistically speaking a 91 win team by the p p pythag record right and that is

An argument that people genuinely believe and could be a Direction forward for the remainder of the offseason listen that’s a fine attitude I’ve said this before it is a fine attitude if you are the Minnesota Twins but when you’re the Chicago Cubs and you haven’t made the playoffs since 2020 and you haven’t

Won a playoff game since 2017 that’s not good enough for me and again that’s ignoring so many variables that you would need to continue from last year now of course things can also go the positive direction things can get better players can get better new players can arise and make their name

And things like that but you know again the caution even with the current group right like is Mike talkman doing that again you betting on that and I’m not again I’m not saying you are you betting on as if you’re fine running it back to a degree with the group from that ended

2023 is Mike talkman leading off and playing that well again you’re sure about that is Jan Gomes at what is he 36 he’s going keep that up he’s going to get all those game-winning hits he’s going to stay healthy and fresh and play that way on offense you’re betting on that you

Sure okay yeah like which I’m a believer that se is the guy he was in the last two months but if you’re just running it all back you better be damn sure about that yeah so you’ll be judged on that too there is a lot of volatility in that

I believe Justin steel will get better as time goes on but there he also just delivered you an an an a an almost sa young season you getting that again is imanaga going to give you what strowman gave you even in the starts that he was out there who knows so like

That that’s my thing when we’re talking about you know certain parts or it was fine last year like was it and is it going to happen again like the the whole point is like you need to get better and add some assurances to that and to your

Point let we can talk about this it is a n 91 win team last year their output was a 91 win team but baseball is a stupid sport if this team goes into the season again with the same roster and let’s say they their pythag record again is 91

There’s still too much uncertainty to leave up for chance and Randomness so in order to compensate for that you need to significantly push your win projection and again you have to think about 2025 and 2026 and 2027 and I understand all of that but sometimes you you don’t

Project 25 or 26 well and you look back on these wind windows and you think damn I should have pushed in to Carter’s metaphor my chips in a little bit more maybe it made a little bit more sense to spend money at the trade deadline in 23

To get that reliever and maybe your 85 win Cubs would have beat the 84 win Dbacks NL pennet winners yeah Cory and that’s where I get a little uncomfortable talking about all this so look I’m not saying you know I’m I’m iffy on the unless the Matt Chapman

Market comes to Jed I I’ve been iffy on that the whole time but I will not be content with their offensive additions being Cody Bellinger and Michael Bush and nothing else that isn’t what we talked about when we started the off season that seems the likely outcome all

Right where else are you going to improve through the trade markets you sign Bellinger who else you going to get in the trade on the on the free agent Market that’s it it’s just Bellinger you know Reese Hoskins perhaps but then where does Bush play where does Morel

Play then now you have to put Morel at third base listen I I hear you but but you but you know what I’m saying like if you only bring back Cody Bellinger and you put Michael Bush at first base and Patrick wisdom is starting at third base

And it’s not a knock on some of these players I think I think the group at third base has real complimentary value I think they’re good bench pieces and they offer different looks Patrick wisdom even just those three players like wisdom madal and master bony they all can provide different things to a

Winning ball Club but as starters as guys that you’re leaning on at a corner position on a team that doesn’t already doesn’t have enough power and slug no that no I know no my answer is no and I’m not the one that gets paid millions of dollars to find a better answer so

This is how stupid Carter if you want an answer this is how stupid I am if I entered the off season and you told me that the Cubs would sign Bellinger and reys Hoskins and imanaga in late October I would have said that’s not enough I I’m not satisfied we’re sitting here end

Of January Hoskins Binger imaga we’re like oh that’s a good off seon hear right right see how our expectations change significantly right but I’m not I’m not wavering on that part I’m not gonna waver on I’ll give them some wiggle room what but I’m not I’m not I’m

Not wavering on that that hypothetical offense isn’t good enough no it’s it’s not my expectation going into 24 was 92 to 95 wins that is a stupid expectation to have likely not going to meet that expectation but that was my expectation and it appears that the front office

Doesn’t think it’s possible to get to that route therefore let’s look at 25 let’s soft push to 24 let’s see how the next five years work with our high volume of prospects and maybe one of them Pro probabilistically works out that’s the direction you’re likely going to go on unless some weird Market

Scenario happens where a good player Falls in their lap but that is going to be a likely outcome I feel we shall see all right let’s finish off this last ad break here from our sponsors Corey comed it’s getting easier for businesses to switch to electric vehicles that’s

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Electric connects us to a better way of doing business and a better future for generations to come all right all right so coming out of our last ad break here I it’s going to be interesting so one of the things I was saying on the

Show with the guys was that dead said at Cubs con that the Cubs off season is in the fourth or fifth inning and my response was well that better be true that that’s it so obviously in terms of time left before pitchers and catchers report and ultimately you know

We’re creeping up on the two-month Mark out of the Cubs and Rangers opening up the season down in Texas and we’ll see you know there’s a lot of stuff still to address so we will see how the Cubs go about that I you know again the the only thing I’m really

Expecting at this point is the the bullpen stuff for sure because Jed was pretty pointed about saying that it wasn’t good enough well I expected that too I mean I think they will improve the offense they can’t yeah I just don’t I just don’t know how so and you know it’s

The same thing like we may be waiting on that I I think if you’re if you’re Jed and you’re waiting for the market to come to you on a couple of players that can take a while because typically agents and players are not going to accept that until they truly have to so

We may be waiting on that for a little bit but we’ll continue to debate this stuff and you know we’re going to continue to see guys trickling into Mesa uh you know So eventually we’re going to start seeing chistopher Morell there we’ll be able to see where he’s playing

What he’s working on things like that and maybe that’ll answer some of these questions or maybe it’ll just create more but it’s uh I feel better than I did two months ago I guess even if only slightly I mean sure I guess if you told me this

Was a situation two months ago I would not feel good right now I would not I would not feel good whatsoever I understand the process if jet can get these guys on cheaper deals and you have to wait out the market good for him just

Has to work I’ll judg it in the middle of March but it has it has to work just has to work I don’t care how you do it I will complain about it I will complain about how there’s no deadlines in the offseason even Jed Hoyer himself is complaining about how there’s no

Deadlines in the offseason so yeah I’ll complain about it but if this is how he believes is the best path forward for a 24 winner okay let’s just see it happened then yeah so we shall see um as I said early earlier but if you missed

It do go to the chg sports YouTube page of course you should be subscribed already but really great stuff from the team uh from Cubs con like I said I know they’re they they did an interview with Jordan Wicks I saw an interview with Mike talkman uh and there’s more to come

From the crew that was over at Cubs con they did a really great job so check out those interviews Brendon and I will be back with you next Friday hopefully with uh signing a single signing or something I doubt I doubt it I would take a

Lowlevel reliever trade even can I can I interest you in a backup catcher no we have too we have plenty of them um maybe that’s the new market inefficiency Brendan backup catches yes I mean you know they had quite a few in 2016 yeah

Do we have M bets no do we have sh Otani no Aaron judge no but you know what we do have 8,000 catchers Al forado alaro yes is it alaro yes anyway hey he’s not on the major league team yet you don’t have to you know you don’t have to figure out that

Was intentional yeah I don’t know yeah sometimes I can’t pick up and SAR I think it was easier when you and I couldn’t see each other I think that’s the problem yeah maybe but we will be back with you next Friday of course tune in throughout the week Monday through

Friday the chdl Cubs team as you covered with live shows we will hop on if there is breaking news uh I believe we’ve only gotten to do two of those shows this offseason one was for Craig Council and the other for shoda imanaga uh but the

Cho Cubs team was live I believe within five to 10 minutes of I was on the show yes of both of those things being announced so I had the camera up my nose basically on that show you were willing to do what it took to get the uh the

Pitch lab data will do what is necessary yeah at all cost so if the Cubs do have breaking news a big signing a big trade Etc and you are looking for immediate content and discussion look no further than the CHD Sports YouTube page and the

Chgo Cubs podcast so we will talk to you next Friday appreciate you guys tuning in thank you as always we will talk to you again soon and as always go Cubs what