Swing Plane with 3D Data | Sportsbox 3D Golf | Webinar

Diving into specific trackers related to Steep & Shallow paths
Recorded on January 16th, 2024
Speakers: Terry Rowles & Mike Adams

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Welcome everybody we already have 92 people in the room so we can get started um thank you all for joining our first webinar of the Year Sports box webinar um and uh we’ll have Mike and Terry present their uh you know findings and knowledge about how motion data

Relates to kind of the outcome you know outcome of the golf shot um how the club is delivered and therefore how the ball flies um all of that you know starts from the body and what you do with the body so uh this is part three of a

Series um on that topic um how the motion data relates to the outcome data and today’s will be steepers and shallower um that you know ultimately impact the outcome uh so I’m really excited about this something that probably affects every single golfer in the entire world and therefore you know

All of you coaches that are in the room can apply this knowledge directly to the very next lesson that you’re going to be teaching so um and of course as always we have Dr Phil chetam in the room um to Pro provide um any you know answers to

Any questions you guys may have about the product or the numbers or the bi mechanics behind what Terry and Mike Mike are talking about um couple housekeeping notes before we get started um next week is a PGA show we hope to see many of you guys all of you guys at

The show very very excited this is our favorite time of the year because we actually actually get to see everybody in person um and so we will have a booth U Booth 1781 um I’m sure you guys are connected by email so you’ll get lots of information um year I graduated from

High school what’s that I said I think that’s the year I graduated from high school great that’s how you remember that number 1781 um and we’ll be all over the place we’ll be presenting at the open Forum we’ll be presenting uh that you know at various different education events throughout the week in

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Will not want to miss it so please um take the time the next couple days to book demos with our sales reps if you’re at all interested in you know Sports box subscribing for the year or purchasing the the studio product um and um we’ll

We’ll follow up with email on how to do that so with that I’ll turn things over to Terry and Mike to go into the education which we’re all here for perfect thank you g you want me start yeah so today we’re going to talk about um

How the the human body and how we measure it with sports box and the outcome uh so relate together and then in additional layer is we’re going to talk about how Mike and I look at that an additional layer is Mike and I hold ourselves to a standard that we make uh

Variables Dynamic and not undynamic so we’re we’re trying to make make sure that we’re adding energy to the system as well as fixing the attack angle in this case or the swing path with Club face so specifically when we talk about steepers and shallows we are talking

About the outcome and we are talking about attack angles a variable on a on a launch monitor so we’re going to talk about uh you know from sort of the beginning to the end of the story of things that affect the attack angle and um you know how we look at people

Differently some people are predisposed to different attack angles um I think really important to understand is that we may overlap some of the information from the swing Direction um because almost entirely the swing Direction and attack angle are related so the generally the more you swing to the left

The steeper your attack angle be and generally the more you swing to the right the shallower it’ll be all other things remaining equal but there are some outlying variables that also shallow the attack angle and will shift the path more to the left so Mike you want to talk a little

Bit about setup you know we always say well you always say I use your sayings all the time to how you swing the club yes sir basically if you can get set up properly you have a good chance to swing in the club properly and when we’re talking about setup we’re talking about

Grip posture ball position aim and alignment and stance uh those five areas really uh control what we do in the goway so how do we look at that in terms of attack angles can we sort of categorize some of those things well let’s look at the grip to start

With the more covered the grip is uh the steeper the shaft is on the back swing and the shaller it comes on the downswing the more under uh the grip is the more shallow it goes back and and steeper comes down um basically all we’re trying to do is get

The uh understanding where the club head is relative to the hands so well I’ve done a lot of work trying to make sense of uh you know the trail on fault test this year which you know when we stand there and swing back some people their elbow pulls in and

Some people the hand rotates and so this has a really big effect on you know what I now call hand path to head path in the back swing and this is kind of interesting Mike in terms of when somebody is you know more of a early hand Rotator and under

Golfer um the consequence of that I stand up here is that you know the elbow tucks against their body and then the hands actually come out slightly early in the swing a lot of people don’t like to see this right because the the lead arm comes off the body so their hand

Path if you can imagine there’s almost like three you know train track one two three the hand path is going to go up more the front side of the body but interestingly because of the early rotation of the club or the hand the head of the club is going to go behind

The hand paff more than somebody who pulls their hands in deeper hand path like Jack Nicholas but because the shaft is rotating less and it’s a little bit steeper the net sort of steepener and shallow on the club is not gigantic but the way in which they create

The the the trajectory of the club is very different right so we can see that on um Sports box if I bring that up real quick share my screen see what I’ve got here 63 so down the line we can see sort of more towards and away from

The the ball it’s a better angle to view and puff STS I’m just going to do this oops screen share there we go so here we got uh eberg my probably my favorite swing in golf right now are we allowed to have favorite swings Mike it’s extremely

Matched up let’s put it that way so um some numbers along the bottom here so we can see you know when starts his swing for example that zeros out the thrust and we can see some numbers which show you know how his Club rotated or not now

Going back to setup just real quick I think you know he’s probably just a slightly on top goer um but handle sharlean at a dress M you know when it’s more forward it’ll tend to flatten the plane on the way back and if it’s more

Back it’ll steepen it so he he is he has his hands a little bit forward just like Rory even so even though his hand path starts to pull in so what we’ll see with the you know more of the on top golfers is the hands are going to be closer to

The right side of the chest and we can see on the bottom of the screen here mid hands thrust gives us an indication of the hand path depth and as he reaches the top of his back swing Chris Kirk does this really well and Rory uh at

Some points in his career where the elbow softens can you guys see that it’s from the video standpoint how his elbow sort of softens and gets deeper so we can see you know good amount of his uh his bicep there so if I put that sort of at the top of the

Swing we can see that mid-and thrust number is yellow so if I click on it we can see at the top of the back swing he is one of the deepest so the hands have traveled in almost the most you know in terms of our PJ tour database and and it

Goes down to as little as 10 Ines so he’s five inches deeper than the the other end of the the Spectrum let’s say and so as he comes down he’d be one of these golfers who who has the elbow more behind the hip and is releasing the club more around the

Corner so that’s that’s kind of cool you know you can use that um I would say that’s not the best number maybe to use comparing player to player um but if you want to compare yourself to yourself you know you know single player um with cover golfers we see that Trail

Elbow get behind the hip right so so get more in front of the hip right so so that’s the nature right so when they did the test they they pulled it in so Hand path is a good one um within that I didn’t show it but the shaft plane is

Interesting so I think his shaft plan is a little flatter than uh you know what we might expect for Pure cover response but that’s because he had shaing so like Rory It’ll be deep but not quite as steep so that’s kind of an interesting one um

So when we talk about attack angle mik of course ball position makes a difference and you know we we tend to measure um you know good thing about sports box of course we can see it on the video so despite the fact that you know some of the micro intricacies of

Grip and certain things uh you know are actually not really easy to measure on any system um we can definitely see ball position and uh you know that’s definitely effect and you know we we do adjust that Mike for different styles how do you how do you approach um p

Position well ball position back is going to be uh create a path that’s more to the to the uh right ball position forward it’s going to create a path that’s more to the left now with a driver the more forward it is the more you can hit up on it but with an

Uh with uh and the more back it is you actually hit more down on it so so when you move the ball back it shuts the shoulders so we have to adjust the feet to uh to create the everything Move online so if uh if I’m moving the ball

Back so that I’m not hitting so much down on it I will close my stance okay uh which will allow me to hit swing out to the right more uh if I’m moving the ball forward I do the opposite I open the stance which is that allows me

To swing the club more to the left so there we go you know those two work together well said Mike um you know so let’s take another variable another anthropometric variable somebody who’s extremely flexible for example you know extremely mobile so when they change direction they they create a lot of

Separation in their body parts like kind of like uh Ricky Fowler um but obviously you know teenagers and you know have a lot of Mobility that Mo yes exactly that Mobility you know will tend to you know shallow out their angle of attack right

So so how do you deal with the fact that their their Club is you know coming around the corner let’s say later and and very shallow how would you address that well basically I mean uh they’re gonna react more like an under golfer if they’re a cover golfer with a ton of

With their hypermobile uh and the a ton of external shoulder rotation um it tends to drop the club in the Sha in the slot um we see that with Sergio we see that with Fowler we see which tends to lay the club off at the top and

Uh by basically uh opening The Stance up you get it moving more down the line so then nature is to be extremely shallow with the angular attack and opening The Stance will give them a more right so that’s especially important for people that are extremely mobile and

They’re hitting out the rough or uh you know they want to hit down a little bit more um so that’s good information and of course the opposite the opposite we close the stance those who don’t have any external shoulder rotation or ar hypermobile and what that does is buys

Them a shallower so the club foot drops back and allows the club to come down a lot shallower that is true so so that really sort of shows the relationship between somebody’s sort of natural swing Direction in this case it’s purely based on their Mobility let’s say but there

Are other metrics that you measure Mike in terms of wingspan versus height and uh forarm upper arm length which have a similar effect you want to talk about those well if you have a long longer arms than height the club’s going to go more upright uh you have shorter arms

And height the club’s going to be flatter if you have a longer forearm it’s going to come down steeper and a shorter forearm is going to come down shallower um because it’s going to be flatter at the top or a longer forearm is going to take it make it steep uh

More upright at the top which um creates a steeper angle attack on the way down um that’s why you see Justin Thomas very long forearm and long arms tends to get the club more upright for a guy who’s under golfer which is pretty amazing um you see uh

Well sheffer’s got longer arms too doesn’t he oh he’s got it isn’t he so if you look at sheffer’s swing it’s very upright um I mean he why don’t you go through how many steepers he has he a maybe an on top arm fold front post you

Know long arms all of those are raising steepener so he has to create some shallows so so in terms of shallow what what do you see that he that he does when he pushes into the ground which helps it out uh he’s that’s it go well go ahead no go

Ahead I actually grab a club and demonstrate what that does ahead he has a tendency to um have a little shift to the left uh to the lower of the plane um he’s got Happy Feet but that you know for you and I I think we could say that those those are

Really helping him do what he needs to do so if you look at him you know he’s very upright you know it’s very steep coming down um but you know so watch this so so as we’re swinging the club you know a lot of people uh you know try and hang

Back let’s say so when we look at the sort of sway out between the upper body lower body they’ll try and shallow it by by side bending and holding the elbow in but that is not very practical right because you’re you’re costing you know contact quality and things like this and

Also speed right so so Sheffer fantastically allows himself to be himself but unusually you know he he is pushing up so much which really pulls the end of the club up uh which allows the club to to have a a better release right so what’s interesting and you can

See this in sportsbox is in all golfers or Elite golfers that say the club is at its lowest somewhere around Club parallel to the ground mhm and the reason why it’s many reasons why it’s so important to load into the lead leg because from here the lead side is

Raising and pulling up on the club which allows the head to get down to the ground right so that then is is a big part of the squaring mechanism later in the swing um and at that point the club is you know so heavy that you want to be

Using you know the lead side of the body pulling up versus trying to do it with your hands at that point so that’s a really important mechanism that um Scotty schaer is taken to the you know a massive degree obviously and and done it what’s that Sean yeah let me see what I

Can find here um in the meantime I have a question uh from the audience at the beginning of the webinar you were talking about the AOA and swing Direction my understanding is that a steepener AOA will make the club path travel more into to out let me let me

Yeah yeah yeah that’s a good question so so basically uh you know when you look at path it’s a little bit more complicated because it’s a three-dimensional uh number so it’s a combination of Swing Direction attack angle and swing plane and so when when we speak about uh

Path hopefully we we speak correctly but we try to talk more about swing Direction so so what we’re we’re really saying is not path is left swing direction is left and when you you have your swing Direction left you tend to hit down on it more so you know those

Two things potentially if you were to swing more left and then simultaneously hit down on the ball more you might have no change in your path actually so you know that’s why so for example you know Mike has a shot uh that he calls the

222 and so you know when we look at somebody let’s say punching out from under the trees a lot of the uh you know Club golfers that will see they’ll actually overhook that shop because they just change a single variable and that single variable does lead so if you only

Change attack angle then net the path will move more to the right and as a consequence the all curve left so what we do Mike you want to talk about your 22 two shot and how you choke down two inches which stiffens the shaft which lowers the trajectory you move the ball

Back two inches in The Stance which actually uh closes the shoulders and uh puts and puts the ball a little farther back and then you um open The Stance up which actually moves the ball back to the correct position um and it restricts the turn going back and sets you up to

Come attack more a little steeper on the downswing so so basically you know put off each other right exactly so putting the ball back only would result in a in an overdraw so in putting the ball back and then opening The Stance we’ve moved the swing Direction More To the Left

Simultaneously steepening the attack angle which Nets out a lower straight shot than a normal straight shot and we could do it the other way around right so if we wanted to hit a higher uh driver you know so we want to increase our attack angle then yeah so correct so

We’re going to then move the ball uh we’re going to close the stance um to hit it later in the circle so so that’s so that so so we want to be really careful to make sure that when we say uh swinging left uh has a has a

Contribution on the attack angle is Swing Direction and not path so that’s really the answer to that question um which is why you know you get somebody like Le trino who’s extremely shallow opening his stance to to get some attack angle or Dustin Johnson’s another one

You know CU he’s may have the strongest grip on tour after he regrips it and therefore he needs a lot of side Bend which will tend to push his path more to the right and so he opens up to net his path out well zero but more more he aims

More left than zero so he hits Cuts but it’s pretty straight his pretty straight yeah so that’s actually what Leo said mate he said uh everyone thought I hit Cuts but actually I just hit pushes I left push it so it’s kind of cool so let’s get back is that

Hopefully that answers that that one um so yeah so we’re trying to be careful to um to answer that as swing Direction and not club path so that was mine oh here we go SC Sheffer let me bring this up we can look at the video it didn’t uh

This is not a video that I recorded in the you guys see that okay this was actually from sacred links thank you guys so we can see some characteristics of um you know on top golfers would be a little bit closer to the ball a little

Bit more angle between the hands and the and the shaft so his hands are going inside of his head elbow his elbow will pull back so his hand hands are deep in front of his right chest we can definitely see you know a lot of uh left sorry right bicep

There and as he comes down his shaft is going to be you know on the higher side so you got to think his uh probably his forearm to upper arm is on the longer side mik and then you know so that that would account for a low cut but I think he

Adds you know he’s going to add some he’s going to shallow his attack angle by pulling up an in on the hands with his feet and body of course and that that makes the club turn the corner uh I kind of lost track of where

We were was that sort of where we were going with that’s exactly where we were okay perfect so so let’s just say okay uh so a dress position is going to have a a really important sort of uh you know cumulative effect on the golf swing

As is you know then the back swing right so we make sure that people are respecting their body movement so their hand path is either going in with the shaft deeper or it’s going out with the shaft slightly flatter um so both of those will you know net out relatively neutrally

Um you have you have the uh um Luke Donald in what way in terms of shifting a lot going out club going in well there’s quite a few I let me see if I can find somebody here on my on my thing you have uh you know John Ram

Would be probably the most EXT and we got here Adam Scott is a micro micro version that’s actually a good one I’ve got uh um Phil is uh in charge of putting hand path to head path into sports box because it’s so useful Phil thank you I I just stumbled across this video

I’m gonna have to show it this time unfortunately so watch so as Adam Scott goes back he’s an under golfer so his right elbow tucks early and his right hand opens you know so the hand is more under so his hands are more on the left chest not so much

The right chest and so you know you could say the hand path rides over the head path in his case much more so than you know more the on toop golfers like you know Rory and um Victor hin and ludc abber so that’s sort of talking about there

Mhm uh see what else we got here the Westwood so I’ve been looking at a lot of this this year just in terms of how that relates to to our testing so we can see his head is he’s pretty close to sideon sort of move much more neutral so

The hand path and the head path is your screen is not showing oh it isn’t there you go not showing I uh I was enjoying it though Phil it looked it looked really good there we go got kicked off thank you for that so here is Adam

Scott uh you know hands are moving slightly out as the head is moving in uh hands are more and you know sort of left center of his chest sha is a little bit flatter versus we got here John R’s a perfect example of the opposite I’ve showed a

Couple of the other ones so his hands will come out early so hands are more you know left side of the chest definitely the shaft is flatter so those are the two extremes so more vertical hand path with a a head path that’s more in versus the opposite

With um Scotty Sheffer that’s what was showing all right so um let’s talk about the swing uh I can show on Sports box here actually let’s see here we got so Sheffer is interesting as Mike was um talking about uh you know he’s he’s got a lot of

Steepers so when we look at him in relation to you know sort of the profiles of the swings that we teach so there’s combinations of you know grip and post what we call a profile one which means he’s a front post with an on top grip and you know consequently when he

Gets to the top of the back swing you know he has a very small uh you know sway Gap a little bit on the smaller side so ranges from you know zero to four so in this particular swing he’s he’s closer to zero or closer to the

Average um but as he moves into transition he moves forward you know significantly which is a steepener but then he’s pushing up pulling his handle up and around which allows the club to square up and not be too steep so so that’s interesting combination see what else we got here

Sah it’s very interesting swing Tony phenow another front post golfer take a moment he is interesting in the his you know pressure and sway move left extremely early look how good his grip is there Terry it’s pretty good right so his right arm is good just want to butt in for a minute

Can you I’d like to make a point please please use the Q&A for questions don’t use chat thank you got a few qu yeah we got a few questions on chat it’s much more difficult to answer so do it on you wanna ask any questions you need to

Ask so couple there’s a couple let me just finish with Tony here and then we’ll go so we zero out uh sway at the moment when the club moves so we can see Tony fow moves you know very small amount to the trail side point8 of an

Inch Max at which point he starts to move back towards the target so here the top of the back swing is already you know inch and a half forward to where he started which is definitely going to be a steepener so it’s almost like think of it like Dynamic ball position he’s moved

More forward relative to the ball and you know so he also pushes incredibly SO watches pelvis lift so those two things can offstage so the steepers and shallows basically need to match up so we can see that he gets about top of the back as it lowest and

Then he lifts with his pelvis you know two inches through the ball it’s interesting Mike you know people go why you know Tony feno’s lower body so quiet it is extremely forceful I would say yeah it’s through there so so he you know he gets to the

Left side very early which is a steepener but just like uh Scotty Sheffer he then pushes up through the ball which um allows him to to shallow out his attack angle somewhat okay so I’ll ask a few questions we’ve uh wrapped up so Garrett would like to know what back swing plane

Would expect a side cover golfer to be on um how important is it for a player a player’s shoulders to be square at a dress doesn’t matter Pur swing style well Square Square shoulders is is not uh a a fundamental it’s a biomechanical impossibility everything being Square so

I think you know I would say railway lines is uh it makes it really tough to to play golf because the right hand is is lower than the left you know the right shoulder gets lower and then the chest opens to sort of line up so the

More somebody is on top the more open their chest is going to be relative to their pelvis the more under they are the closer go back to being squer and you know that that relationship definitely um is part of the package that does affect um attack angle you know

Generally speaking under golfers are more likely to hit up on it and on top golfers are more likely to hit down on it but there’s there’s a number of variables that that you know intersect that but generally speaking that’s true um swing plane is a difficult one

Just because uh I don’t talk too much about swing plane I would say I look at hand path and head path a little bit more um you know generally speaking the more this hand does this it’ll actually flatten the plane and the more it doesn’t so relatively speaking on top

Golfer has a lower amount of superation in the back swing so if you look at somebody like uh you know Brooks cup he lowers his handle and then almost twists it closed this is really beneficial like low hands almost twisting it closed a lot of the on top golfers actually have

A trigger where they you know they they twist the hand to start the back Rory does that there a few other guys but that helps them get the depth that they need because the the shaft is going to be steeper but deeper like Jack Nicholas uh for on top golfer ver as a

Single variable uh versus somebody who’s going to rotate it earlier tuck the elbow the hand path is going to be less deep but the plane is going to be shallower and then there are variables which raise or lower that plane which are Mobility you know arm length posture so they all

Forearm length especially in the late back swing to down swing so if you look at someone like um Justin Thomas mik he you know what would you how would you analyze like Justin Thomas for example yeah long arms and long forearm so so as a consequence you know

He he tries not to be an under golfer he’s always trying to get the club online but generally speaking his plane is raised up more so his handp is out in front because he’s under goer but then because of this length he doesn’t look especially mobile I wouldn’t say it

Would be one of the most mobile golfers someone like Ricky Fowler or Rick Rory mroy you know their their plane is going to lower through their Mobility um so that’s that’s interesting and and that is a variable in sports box so you can definitely see the

Relationship um you know for on top golf for the shaft plane it will usually be a little bit steeper going back and uh you know closer to the normal on the way down whereas you know like I said the under golf would have a little bit

Flatter plane on the way back you know Justin Thomas who has tried to be so neutral it’s hurt it’s hurt his golf swing he doesn’t hit it as good ball Strikers and he could all of a sudden he’s got a two-way Miss but you know let’s stick to the

Theme Mike and say well how does what he does affect his his ball flight an attack angle well because his the attack angle should be shallower and what he’s doing is trying to steepen it uh it affects it tremendously because he doesn’t allow you know almost like that hands out club

In move he’s he’s trying his hands in and keep the club online right say you know his shaft doesn’t probably go around Club face to open up in the back swing he’s always keeping the club face hooded or Square as they call it and uh

So now he’s got to he’s got to somehow get that club face open on the downswing and somehow he’s got to Shadow it so that’s a lot happen in a second and a half related to this um topic of JT Doug funs are asked does JT use a lot of side

Bend then to help move the swing direction to the right correct JT and shall it yeah so JT is interesting because um I mean so let me just use the me me right so he because of the way he takes it back you know he doesn’t have

As much maybe sway Gap as he potentially could at the top of the back swing which is a steepener it looks like he’s got pretty long forearm long arms everything’s like a steepener for him very similar to um you know very similar to Scotty Sheffer except he’s he’s not

Matched up quite as well in that way and so you know when he starts down at Steep and he’s and he’s got a very low SG out through transition so he’s got so the more upper body is on top of the lower body through transition that would be a

Steepener um now JT is incredibly springy right he’s like Rory in that he’s got a lot of strength to weight ratio and so he then pushes back pulls back on the club probably even more than uh you know um Chef or at least equivalently I think they’re about the

Same Club head speed but he pulls you know and pushes in a different direction right so he so he creates a bigger uh you know sway G through trans transition than somebody like Scott Sheffer who’s going to push more straight up so the the action you know sort of through the

Impact zone is is either this way for an under golfer or this way for um an on top and so but you know that I think that style Nets out to be you know a little bit more of a you know a more descending blow or a low attack angle

For a style and a left swing Direction so therefore they end up both hitting you know more like bullet cuts where JT potentially in our opinion um High draws should find it easier to hit High draws than he does when he played his best gol I’m gonna jump around a bit but can

Uh Sasha would like to know can you talk about the amount of sway for an under or over golfer so is like a range for an under golfer and over golfer that’s a good question uh you want to touch on that one Mike you want

Me to go there you can start it well the uh so we’ve just reorganized the way we look at um we organize the the golf swings and we call it profiles there one to nine so imagine top left is a front post on top golfer bottom right is like

A rear under golfer and there’s everything in between so if you look at the sway then we’re looking at lower body action and it is absolutely dominated by the post test more than the grip test so you know we did some research with uh Mike Duffy on Force

Profiles and there is a relationship between you know the way we move you know measured movements like sway for example and um you know and the forces that we put into the ground so you know you could have somebody like Bill Hass or uh you know Tyrell Hatton profile sadin and you

Know Brendan steel Zack Johnson they’re under golfers but they they end up having upper body sway that’s the difference so the the grip affects the upper body so there’s more upper body sway for under golfer so they’ll start off with a bigger sway Gap at a dress so the upper

Body will be to the trail side of the low body more they’ll pivot around it so at the top of the back swing there’ll be a bigger Gap and then when they move forward that Gap remains somewhat and then they push at a slightly different

Angle but the sway of the lower body is is much more to do with the post Mike you want to talk about the under front think it this way okay the under has to be has to get the club in position under so the upper body has to

Move to the right to offset that so that so they have room so they can do it um then same thing with the the guy the who’s a cover golfer they have to have have a counter tilt where the other was a counter swivel uh the upper body has

To go more tilt left to get the help to get the club up and uh so the club can now have a steeper angle attack I mean uh everything they’re doing is to create time and space so I mean for the purpose of answering the question with some data

Like do you guys have under golfers that you want to show like the sway Gap at the top and impact for just give people a sense for what is normal for that gol you can do that let me see how I’ve got here I’ve seen up to like you know

Negative six seven you know inches of sway Gap at impact dver oh yeah you can go more than that so that uh that is you know a dynamic number um so I would say somebody uh you know at a dress you know it might be like negative two three whatever but

Then you know impact that goes like to like7 you know yeah I would say uh here let me share this real quick so what we’re looking at and again this it’s a small difference between driver and iron it shouldn’t be a gigantic difference um ter we don’t see any screen shared yet

This just takes a second here okay there we go um so this is uh Tyrell Hatton and so you can see the sway Gap number uh it’s actually a really windy day I want if he was sort of stacking a bit on this one but you can see the number at

Address um you know about inch just over an inch as he moves back he creates a much bigger Gap can you guys see that number so that’s 2.4 inches so he’s kind of interesting and I’m sort of on the fence whether it how much the setup

Contributes but a lot of the times we’ll see people create maybe two inches at a dress and then maybe two and a half inches at the top so this would be you know pretty classic uh under golfer SG app so it’s slightly bigger um you know

We don’t it’s about an inch inch and a half difference for more of an ontop golfer so he he’s created that Gap he sustains it through through transition and then what happens is you know the club is moving away from him and it’s getting heavier and he needs to

Pull back on the club to deliver it and so he’s starting to pull back he’s pulling the club more towards his you know midline and as a conse you can see there he’s created you know 8.9 which is definitely on the higher side but in my opinion it might be on

The higher side because he actually started almost too straight in my opinion right so so he so what we’re going to see with swag up is the under golfer usually will have their upper body more to the trail side they’ll be behind the pelvis up here so he’s 2.3

Degrees 2.3 in up body to the trail side of his low his low body through transition sort of stay the same but then the nature of you know the way we push into the ground pull back on the club you club’s probably Phil you want to say it’s maybe about 130 140 150

Pounds there there pulling on him and he’s got a pull back on it and that pulls us away from the Target and that’s actually a really important one I would say in terms of uh you know people uh this an old video not sure how so

This is of those things you know don’t do this at home so the numbers are uh won’t be all that accurate but I was looking at Rory’s uh because this old video but let’s have Rory address 1.7 would be pretty classic I would say for on top golfer that’s actually a small

Number so that was unusual that tyell was so so so small um you know top of the backs you can see the numbers about the same so that would be a a more of an ontop golfer um you know so he hasn’t really you know moved his upper body behind the

Ball he’s going to move forward through transition and then push it back but you can see the numbers a lot smaller because he as an on toop golfer he’s going to be pulling in a different angle let’s say and so you know is that a victory red driver it is that

Is so so bonus question for an extra point what year would that be I mean this is 20 12 is it really no I think 201 2013 13 I think it’s 13 that’s a good one so uh so that’s actually a really interesting question because I do want to uh you

Know talk about Dynamic matchups versus not so a lot of um uh a lot of golfers uh want to hit up on it more and so is the consequence they lean you know significantly to the right address uh I always joke with my Club fitter friends that’s how you know

Someone’s been to a club fitter because they they they suddenly try to hit up on it more because they make the clubs look better but if you lean like significantly to the right like this you’re basically off balance and it has no respect for your style and so that

Person is probably going to do some kind of reentering and so that would be a you know uh an undynamic matchup because they’re going to have to now you know use some effort and some of the energy to sort of redirect the club instead of actually

Unleash it on the ball so so that’s one that people need to be careful of we really want the you know that sway Gap increase to be dynamic through the ball which is a shallower versus you know passive you know stay behind the ball sort of thing because that’s not going

To create any any speed is a way to think of it well the um somebody just kind of asked clarifying question does releasing the golf club essentially create more sway Gap through impact is that kind of the right way to think about it as a reaction not a not an

Action yeah I think you know release is an extremely vague term I mean the club is pulling away from us at some point um you know the top of the Swing you know we have a lot of ability to to talk the club as it gets deeper into the swing

You know you know Sasha has talked a lot about how the the you know forces are acting on the club and it’s moving out so we are much less capable of moving or controlling the club you know late in the down swing with a hand um so that’s

Why again it’s like really really important to to have a really good swing out through transition so that you can use your lead leg and Lead side to to contribute through the left hand effect on the club um and if you’re able to do that you know the hands remain in

Balance and we can sort of feel some of the aspects but if you’re out of position then you’re using your body um you know ineffectively I got a new saying G you’re going to laugh you know the late under uh you know so you’re too Steep and then late in the

Down sing you sort of back up and drag it well I saw one the other day it was a late over so somebody who’s like hanging back and trying to shallow out their angle of attack and then the club is getting heavier and heavier and then they go

This way so you heard it here first that’s a late over so you you know the high right shoulder finish because they’ve done all the things in the world to fix their attacko unfortunately the face is aiming 40 degrees to the right and now they have to save it in the

Last um a couple more side undergrip shallow to steep cover steep to shallow what references should one look at relative to the Elbow plane from down the line uh to correctly match up for both Styles well cover is going to have more of a flying elbow and the elbow’s

Going to be more behind the hip behind the body under is going to be uh more tucked and in front of them uh and lower I mean uh they’re not even close to looking the same well then you got the effect of the mobility of the person you know so if

They don’t have Mobility or if they’re not a very good golfer so I think you know there are the things that we talk about do differentiate between human Styles but then there’s also differentiation between the quality of movement and the quality of golf skill that the person has and I would say a

Fundamental skill that improves as people improve their golf ability is is the kinematic sequence which means that the person is able to you know sequence their rotations from the ground up which assumes that they’re able disassociate the segments from each other and somebody who’s extremely tight so you

Could have a range of motion problem right and just get steep or you could choose to hold on really hard because you really don’t know what you’re doing and then the whole body is like a you know I call that the meatball swing it’s like a whole bunch of stuff just sort of

Musling it um so that that then is going to be a steepener so to answer the question mobility and or just quality of movement and you know athletic ability can contribute to some you know sort of shallowing and additionally you know forearm to upper arm length um if you’re

Spanish right MX so how many non-spanish shorter uper arm to lower arm have you got well Spanish it’s it’s amazing how much the uh forearm is shorter than the upper arm uh we were noticing that when we were doing measurements he goes he must be Spanish actually had an Italian as well

But basically the the longer the forearm is and it starts to get you know you can get some really big differences you know up to like three what’s the biggest you saying I think three and a half inches maybe it’s a big one five inches wow and

So that person is is naturally going to have a much higher plane on the way down but the pitch of the shaft is is much more to do with how they how they moved so it’s almost like up and down is mobility you especially in the shoulder disassociation through the

Body uh forearm length um those would be things that you know move it up and down and it’s not a single variable but just generally speaking um you know the grip well I shouldn’t call it grip the trail arm fold assessment really does affect the depth more than anything and the and the

Pitch of the Sha so so those things add up and we you know allow people to be themselves but if you have a net of things that will you know be less deep and steeper then you know we need to say to ourselves okay what kind of things

Can we use to shallow out this person’s angle of attack if they want to hit draws or they want to hit it higher we’ll close their stance and we right so we close this stance or maybe teach them to load and push up better so that they can do the you know Justin

Thomas and Scotty Sheffer version of shallowing which is you know pulling on the end of the club to have it line up um more easily versus somebody that stays down too long they tend to you know someone like a Lee westw they’ll pull the crub club across their body and

Got be pretty strong to do that yeah you do that’s right or left-handed right so Jordan SM um in the last few years has been pulling it across his body a little bit more because feel like he’s not pushing up quite as much Mike what do

You think I totally agree I mean is funny because we were looking at his swing when he came out as a rookie and terion look at man he had a great golf swing yeah so he would pull up which would allow him to extend his arms more

Than when he he doesn’t push quite as well and drags the the handle through so um yeah so all right what else we got any questions um so M and Terry can you give us three bullet points that have allowed you to be a be better teachers while using Sports

Box three bullet points that’s a really unusual question um well I would say uh you know I’m gonna use Mike’s phrase so he can’t like you can you can have this as one of your bullet points that answer for both of us that technology is a better set of eyes right so regularly

Using Sports box has helped me to categorize different people’s swings and definitely helps me to make decisions not based on what my intuition is but based on what numbers are so i’ would say that’s a more consistent way of making decisions it trains your eyes where to

Look yeah and so I mean out of using Sports box we’ve created uh sway Gap metric um which when we looked at the relationship in the data between swing Direction and um you know body movements which therefore means attack angle also it was other than stance alignment it was the

Biggest contribut to swing Direction so and then that then linked into our system of how we organize people and things that Mike has already seen and so you know sometimes it clarifies what you know sometimes it gives you a better way explaining it but no matter what you do

If you if you if you use it you you become more efficient and make more consistent decisions um yeah I could go on so that’s my a much better understanding of what’s Happening yeah and you know we we teach uh you know we have a system that we teach you

We measure people and you know what sports box has helped us to do is to fill in the gaps a little bit more effectively and you know be able to tell a better story and you know I I think it’s super underrated that people really do love to have an outcome variable so

It’s not some sort of like waffly you know why don’t you just you know get more behind the ball or something right which changes on a daily basis they actually which isn’t saying anything so you go okay set your upper body two inches to the trail side your lower body

And then top of the back swing I want to see two and a half inch SW g whatever it’s just so much easier to communicate when you know the two of you have the same sort of map in front of you as opposed to a golf teacher using

Terminology and sort of overwhelming the student where they’re actually learning language versus uh golf so that’s like seven already yeah I think that piece of having objective language like precise language to communicate with your students I i’ I personally found it to be be a big plus um when I try to tell

One of my friends that I’m trying to like teach how to play golf like they don’t know what it feels like to get more behind the ball like they have no idea what that actually means we just that’s the language that we talk in when you show them in numbers like I want

This number to be that like then they’re like oh okay that makes sense so um yeah I think that’s a really big difference Mike anything else to add definitely you definitive answers yeah um okay um how much research have you guys done on sway Gap throughout the

Bag so this is a question about like you know everything from like driver all the way to a pitch shot like the example they gave was um Bryson hitting up five degrees on a driver you know versus Victor hin hitting at negative 9 with the pit shot like is there a Tracker

Truth associated with each club and the kind of shot that you’re hitting uh yeah I mean if you look at um I wouldn’t I I’m not going to answer that with a track of truthness well I could so if you look at uh Bryson’s uh sha plane address it’s pretty high right

So for us that would be more like an under golfer so the the the shaft angle address is going to be lower for on talk golfer higher for under golfer he has his handle extremely high and you know that has the effect of um you know having the hands stay higher

In the back swing which is more of an under move so the hands will stay high um and the head will want to to to be shallower uh so you know that I personally wouldn’t I mean it’s not uh do that um but the point is you know that will

Definitely if you you do that that will sh your Ang going attack and now in terms of a pit shot um I haven’t filmed it so I’m not I’m just going to guess with me uh but I would say because of the nature of the you know the mass of the club pulling

Away from you plus your determination to launch the ball on a certain trajectory with the type of Club I think your intent you know will change if you’re you know trying to hit down 10° and launch the ball at you know 28 degrees uh I don’t think you pull back

On the club quite as much you know depending on your trajectory I think people who you know hit knockdown shots with a lower Cadence let’s say less effort less speed then they’ll tend to not you know extend out of the shock quite as much and part of the extension

Is also the upper body moving away from the Target and the S got growing so I would say you know to try and answer that one I would say the swag gra increases the most with the most effort and it will increase the least with the least effort and it will increase the

Least through impact with the intent to have a steeper attack angle um so there you go cool um got a a bunch more questions I don’t think we’ll get through them in the next minute so uh we’ll just try our best um should a oh my goodness um somebody

Just said Arsenal blew the largest lead in premier league history last night no they it wasn’t the biggest in history whatever uh can you say the type of grip and body of the sling show I don’t know if that’s a question um any Junior golfer samples in

3D do you guys have good Junior data because there’s a question later down where it says when teaching growing teenagers does measurement change much do measurements change much as they grow and my my my two cent there yes as their you know their body grows the magnitude

Of Sway and lift those will grow because they’re bigger people right like Scotty Sheffer swaying is going to be magnified versus or mauroy because the sheer size of their their limbs and you know their bodies but besides that is there anything else that you put off

On and with the kids I mean uh I’m very fortunate because I have a lot of kids and stuff and you know one thing you have to do is you have to stay on top of them because they’re constantly their body’s constantly changing uh the relationship between

Arms and uh upper body stays fairly much the same but they are constantly they’re uh they’re not their ability to stabilize things changes because they get as they get real gangly and then all of a sudden as they get stronger they can do different things uh they’re changing all the time I mean

Um I have a kid who’s 13 years old uh Matthew and this kid is an unbelievable player but staying on top of what he’s doing or uh Aphrodite same thing who’s 13 she’s phenomenal player but they they changed tremendously every time I see them uh we’re adjusting different things in their stance and

Setup so they can continue to play golf and play good uh kids change a lot so basically yeah no 100% I think you just got to test them more regularly right that’s that’s basically the rule I mean adults I’ve only ever seen you know maybe one or two people change their

Assessment result just because they had you know maybe like a tremendous amount of rehab or you know they got a new shoulder or knee or something like this but um here kids uh yeah you just have to test them on a regular basis I mean

It comes back to in the in the course of a lesson um you know we’ll we’ll assess people and then if we sense that we have to make big changes then I personally will go back and retest them just to make sure I did a good job because before I have to make

Significant changes I’d rather double check my my work first and so with the kids I would say it’s like that if you start seeing some unusual shots before you you know really go down a rabbit hole and make a lot of change I would go okay this might be the moment where we

Need to just sort of reassess and see you know just check our work because if you test people um accurately then you end up with the least amount of complications it’s the easiest uh information to apply and it it feels natural to the person but if you start

Trying to you know go down the rabbit hole and make a lot of changes then you’ve You’ probably sort of lost sight of the shore a little bit then you know in that moment it’s definitely a moment to have like a alarm go off and saying you maybe I should retest what I’m

Saying might not be the right thing yeah because when we start them most of the time we start them out neutral grip everything is neutral and as they start to change all of a sudden they’ll start to become more under more covered then all of a sudden the grip

Changes and uh how they take it back and everything changes I mean uh I was looking at the other day a couple of the kids that I’ve been teaching for a long time how much their golf swing has changed and uh they’ve managed to continue to play good throughout because

We’ve been we’ve managed to uh make adjustments for them and that’s just if with kids constantly testing constantly checking once their growth plate Set uh it makes a huge difference for them uh but constantly testing them and setting them don’t don’t get set in stone with a

Grip when they’re uh nine years years old to when they’re 15 years old because things change uh dramatically between them so you know make adjustments so they can continue to play okay I’m gonna end on this one and I’m sorry if we didn’t get through all the questions um question from from Sue

Anderson um question from Mike how has your teaching changed over the years what categories of information or new discoveries have been the most significant you got to remember I’ve been teaching uh since the turn of the century not this one how was it how was it when uh

Electricity came in Mike did that make a difference well you know electricity was Wheel was the was the wheel a bigger uh a bigger influence on your career no I mean basically uh the information has made a huge difference for me because uh I’ve been able to

Become a lot more uh precise with my information because we were able to do research and we have a lot more understanding before we’re makinging assumptions and now we’re making less assumptions we’re now uh testing and the information is a lot lot uh Tighter and a lot uh more correct um now that’s

Where the answer in regards to the sports box uh you know everybody has ambiguous gaps in their knowledge and and sports box definitely helps to um to close those gaps and and give measurements and certainty to what we’re doing I think that’s what it’s done the

Last two years for me it’s changed uh understanding and how I describe things uh I just want to note Mike before we finish what a great Halo you have I thought your hair was moving but it’s probably your you know the fan behind me you thought my it’s like

Perfectly uh most Halos I I don’t really move but yours is yours is better than most awesome so to summarize measure and uh in order to kind of match up your styles um with the steepers and shallower sway app is one of the most significant contributors so match up

Your sway apps through to the the styles to make sure you’re getting this path you know under control is that kind of a good way to summarize it yeah and by the way we are close to finishing the book it’s uh what’s the date it’ll be um we’ll spend two weeks

In February and we’ll finish it I uh you heard it you heard it here first yeah I think collecting the pictures is is we’re not sure what February but it’s going to be no I’m 100,000% determined to do it before I start back at Hudson

In sort of late May and uh I’m not going to uh I’m not going to deviate from that I just found a software uh which really helps us to put our thoughts in the same place it’s going to make a big difference all right well good luck are

Super add HD like Terry and I all of the above plus issues d d HH d d d ADH d d yeah all of well thank you both so much again for another great education session uh they’ll both be at the show and they’ll be at the the sports box Booth um

Schedules will be sent up by email so if you guys want to chat with uh these two guys uh definitely definitely stop by our booth at the PJ show um but yeah thank you guys so much have a great night everyone one more thing we have a education event which we will also

Include a lot of um Sports box uh stuff in and it’s going to be on Friday and Saturday so Friday the 26th Saturday 27th Friday 26 we’re going to use um Mike Duffy and Phil chetam here to to fill in some of the intelligent um information and we’re

Going to go through very systematically um you again thanks to sports box I feel like our ability to communicate uh the assessments and the outcomes to people is really become a lot more simple um so we’re going to go through that on the first day so people will be able to go

Leave and and teach effectively after the first day the second day was really cool uh we did it last year I gave about 50 Sports box lessons in a row last year and Mike gave 50 uh lessons on a force plate with Mike Duffy and um so if you

Want to come and have a lesson and uh learn how to teach other people to get better then we’re going to be there 2627 and you can go to our website Ultimate Golf lon.com to sign up perfect awesome um thank you guys have a great

Night and see see days bye guys bye by bye