Winter Spine Races 2024 | Kim Collison, John Kelly & Damian Hall | Pre Race Interviews Part 1

The Montane Winter Spine Races 2024 are almost upon us! It’s early January, the weather is cold, and the days are short. It can only mean one thing… it’s time for 400+ athletes to head to the Pennine Way National Trail for #BritainsMostBrutal races.

In the coming days, you’ll see a three-part release of interviews with some of the many well-known names from the roster of this year’s monster race along the Pennine Way.

This is part one where Will chats with last year’s returning champion Damian Hall, his arch-rival (?), John Kelly, and world-class ultrarunner Kim Collison, about what brings them to the start line of such difficult events, about how their preparation for the 2024 race has gone, and more…

Follow the race live from Saturday 13th January 2024. You’ll find links to live tracking here: https://linktr.ee/spinerace

#SpineRace

Pals greetings greetings and welcome it is early January and I am speaking to you and that can only really mean one thing the Montaine winter spine races are back on top of us again they begin in fact at the end of this very week now

At the end of the 2023 event that whole year ago you’d have been forgiven for thinking surely that’s about as exciting as a spine race gets you know across all the distances we had some amazing performances and records and and then in the big race that down to the wire win

Um with Damen Hall running against Jack Scott and then CLA banworth coming in as winner a day ahead of her closest rival just astonishing stuff so yeah you’d have been forgiven for thinking it doesn’t get more much more exciting than that and yet here we are if you’ve had a

Look at the roster for the event starting this weekend no doubt you’ve realized you were wrong and it can get better we have over 400 entrance across all race distances 177 on the start line of The Big Race the uh the Montaine winter spine race doing the full length of the

Penine way in just 7even days among those we have over 70 who are Pete offenders who’ve been through this experience before and voluntarily came back to do it again and then if you now down even more we’ve got a dozen Runners out there who’ve been on the podium of this very

Race before I mean there are others among that that block of 177 names who’ve grabbed a Podium place in some of the other distances within the spine witer series or summer series but we’re talking a dozen people who’ve been on this podium in the past and then if if

You want to dig even further in among those we’ve got six past winners two of whom are triple winners which is astonishing stuff who’s going to win this year is absolutely anybody’s guess now as usual on the run into a spine race I like to ring around some of

The athletes on the roster and you know see how their preparation for the event has been going try and engage who might be feeling stronger feeling more confident than the others and every year as I’m no sure no doubt sure you’re about to hear as you go through these

Episodes um they edge around the point and don’t commit to anything in particular but who can blame them they’re about to go into an event where Anything could happen at any time nevertheless I’ve had a conversation with a number of the runners and I think you’re going to find it really really

Interesting now I’ve had to focus in on One race otherwise this was going to turn into N9 hours of podcast so we are looking at the big race and I know there are names on that roster that you probably wanted to hear from who I haven’t managed to catch people have

Lives and it’s not always possible to tie it together so I don’t want you to look at the list of guests on on these episodes and think oh those are the favorites for this race I don’t think you can have any such thing on a spine race the conditions are so changeable

From year to year that the conditions could play into the hands of any one of these athletes but I have picked out some returning Champions some legends from Years Gone by and at least one Runner who’s done exceptionally well in similar events and is coming to us for

The first time so I really hope you enjoy these episodes and I really hope you’re going to be following those dots and looking out for those social updates across the whole of the race me and the spine media team will be there from start to finish and bring you

All the news we possibly can now I didn’t want to subject you to you know six- hour long episodes uh so to keep these a little bit snappier I’ve split the guests up across three episodes that we’re going to put out over the next three days and this first episode

Features a returning winner in Damen Hall um another returning winner in John Kelly and an exceptional worldclass Ultra runner in Kim Collison who we have seen run so well alongside Damen Hall in this race before and who we’re all looking forward to seeing hopefully do well again this time around I guess

Loosely if I had to place a theme on this episode and explain why I’ve grouped them all in together it would be rivalry um you know I’ve certainly tried to play into the uh te and hairo based rivalry between at least two of these Runners but I think it’ll become very

Apparent as you listen to the episode that um you’ve really got to dig for the Rivalry here um if there’s one thing that I’ve noticed across the entire ultr Running Scene is there are very very rarely cases that I’ve come across of genuine angry rivalries maybe it’s the

Nature of the events maybe it’s the nature of the fact that these athletes all spend an enormous amount of time in very wild places in very treacherous conditions that they’re all minded towards looking out for each other rather than fighting each other that said we are definitely going to see

Battle commence on the penine way in just a few days time so let’s hear from these Runners let’s hear how their preparation for the 2024 event has been going and let’s get properly excited for the Montaine winter spine races 2024 good morning then to Kim Collison Kim

How are you doing this morning how are you feeling good morning will I’m feeling great um looking forward to getting Christmas day over and done with and enjoy the festivities because soon after Christmas Comes the uh spine um I’m really looking forward to mid January and getting going

Again yeah I I can only imagine that it’s even more Amplified for you but I’ve now got to a point where I don’t even really see Christmas on the calendar anymore like it’s there and I’m sure that’ll be a lovely day but I’m already thinking past that to the middle

Of January and that must be even more the case for you so diving straight in how are we feeling about it how are you feeling about January are you excited nervous what what does that pre-spin feeling feel like for you yes um it’s it’s full of excitement to honest I’m looking forward to

Getting back to Ed and trying to put myself through the spine again I think the delayed gratification is is has built up over the last three years to try and reach the the wall in KK GTO in my best possible uh um time and and so yeah I’m looking forward to having that

Opportunity to try and cover the distance and and reach caretto and so are we I was so excited when I when I saw that your name was back in the mix for this as well I um I know that you know it hasn’t gone entirely to plan when you’ve previously

Had a go at this you know we we could say you’ve done a couple of sort of very you’ve done a couple of race day wys yeah that’s that’s got to stand you in some some good stad for this one I imagine there have been some lessons through this slightly longer than

Intended Journey so I mean if you’re happy to talk about it what what has gone wrong in the past and how are you feeling about that going into uh going into the attempt this year yeah I guess there’s been a a problem solving couple of years really

Of been trying to work out not just spine but generally some longer Ultras in the last two years of of why have I been grinding to a halt um you know and that’s been going through a process of you know is it my chimp you know I think

There’s definitely an element of me and Damon racing too hard at the first year um with at the spine for me um and ending up just burning out before I even got to um with with nausea and muscle problems I think that you know that was a a good learning curve in

Itself and um you know and then you go and you start to try to roll out some of these these problems you know last year we definitely were relaxed we were controlled there was a big group heading for the first few hours and then you know eventually finned out and um and

The pace seemed to be be good and nutrition was going well and and but yeah I I’ve been suffering with kind of rending muscle problems you know after a set duration in a lot of long endurance races so it’s been trying to look we why why why are my muscles

You know just sort of seizing up more than it’s it’s been a hard process because there’s that okay yeah muscles hurt they get fatigued they get tired it’s it’s a long way but it’s gone beyond that point that it’s it’s a oh I really can’t move that fast at all anymore compared

To previous experiences of long events where yeah and you’re not moving as fast but you’re still able to move with progress and and come through that the other side and I think what was it the UTMB in August was kind of a a crunch point where I only actually made it maybe

Three four hours into the race so barely 20 miles in and then suddenly bang the wheels had come off totally in terms of um the muscle system and it didn’t matter he it was just I was totally depowered and it was it you know it was

Kind of like well I’ve trying all the the basic problems here um it was like okay let’s have another reflect let’s think through the the problems um and eventually I’ve come to the conclusion that potentially it was some medication that I take for cholesterol lowering that could be causing in under these

Circumstances for the muscles to finally go no enough enough I’m going to switch off and not give you the the power and the strength and and we’re out we’re protecting ourselves here and uh so I can’t imagine that was an easy diagnostic process to figure that out

Either like it as you say that it’d be easy to go well it’s a long way you know legs hurt but as you’ve just said 20 miles in we we know you’ve got a lot more than that in your legs so there there must be something else to look for

But how do you even begin to pick all that apart yeah I guess it’s the coming to the most obvious thing that’s left yeah when when you when you ruled out and gone through the process in two years of right let’s try and eliminate this thing let’s make sure

This is on point and then when you’re still having the same problem you you come back to okay it could be this this is the most likely cause now we’ve got to try and Ru that out I guess the the point of not wanting to rule that out before is because the

Reason you’re on that medication is for all uh health benefits in terms of C you the the point of getting the cholesterol lower is improve your cardiac risk for long-term um uh duration benefits in in lifespan uh so you you kind of go right let’s let’s leave

That um but coming back to that going right let’s test that come off the that particular medication and then the difference within two weeks of muscular feeling in terms of in hard training or running downhill and then not having wooden legs for two days and then actually recovering in a

Normal time Horizon to show progress in strength training for adaption actually getting stronger rather than doing the work and just staying where you are you and suddenly you start to see okay I’m actually able to race hard and still train the next day which you start to remember those feelings of

Okay this is how it should feel like oh man that must have been a joy to come back to yes so in in terms of positivity going into the spine is given me okay I’m now responding perhaps better to the training that I’m doing that hopefully if I manage all the

Other variables that I’ve learned in other events yeah that I can then reach kurto um you know I mean no allusion that there still better be S muscles and an and then potential noer and sleep deprivation and cold and wind and rain and ship but I’ve got hope that that I’ve

Actually now potentially got capacity to deal with those issues that’s excellent that’s really really good news I’m very very glad to hear that and I mean that that must have been a good moment that that the realization that I think I found it I think I I think I know what the issue

Was and and I can see that we’ve made a positive change here I that’s a a great sort of platform to jump off into the spine race um and I mean to dig into the spine itself for people on the outside of this you got to think there’ll be some people

Listening to this podcast who and I get it I I came into the ultra running scene as a fanboy who could not believe that was this almost secret world out there of people doing absolutely superhuman stuff there are people who are going to be listening to this who it’s

Unthinkable and unfeasible for them to run this far and it it would be easy to look at the spine race from the outside and just see the difficulty and the hardship so what is it that makes you want to come back and and test yourself against it again why why the spine and

And why keep coming uh I guess for me it’s the adventure meaning the the outcome is uncertain so I’m exploring the uncertainty of trying to get to the other end um and and I guess there’s also that element of performance that’s always integrated within me that I’m I am

Competitive so it’s not just about the distance it’s also about doing it in the best possible effort that I can um wherever that leaves me and and that’s what kind of brings me back to it fantastic because it because I haven’t achieved it and I haven’t reached the end and and that always

Drives me to get better and grow oh yeah I can imagine there’s obviously there’s the there of some unfinished business to to come back and get done and um you got to believe we’re going to be very heavily invested in you in the background as well I I I can’t remember

If it was you or it was just around that time but I I know I remember one of your previous attempts at this and it just felt like anybody in the top 10 could go at any moment and one at a time people just kept dropping out and it was either

I think it was you somebody woke me up from a nap to say that you just on out of the race and I pushed a chair over and K I so frustrated I was like oh no it can’t be don’t do that to me like don’t think for a second we’re not

Hugely invested behind the scenes in in you getting through this so yeah I’m I’m really looking forward to seeing you in eale again um and you know it’s easy to talk about the spine as a tough challenge there must be stuff you look forward to as well like what are the

What are the positives out there is it is it the course that brings you back or what what is it that you enjoy about this that is a very hard question and first thing in the morning as well and first thing in the morning you know because if you unpick it

There’s a lot of unpleasant things in it absolutely but sometimes it’s that the hardship in the adversity that sometimes makes you feel most alive and um takes it strips you down to some degree doesn’t it into that you’re just focusing in on that moment you’re not worried about anything

Else that’s happening but getting through that storm Crossing those bogy fields uh climbing up the Steep Hillside it you uh you’re just in that moment of right and that and that process so it’s all absorbing into yeah that basic um survival part of of life that strips everything else away um there’s also

The comrad um a shared experience that’s you really a key part of it you know the annual sharing under miles with with Damon um as as we Traverse up the pen on way and getting to catch up from uh previous times we shared some miles and

You know and that feeling of yeah we’re all this in this together um well as well as still competing against each other you know there’s still that element of um bonding that it’s it’s not just competition it is uh about getting the best out of yourself and and shared

Experience yeah I I’m I’m really glad to hear you say that like I think obviously it’s a different experience for me I’m I’m charging around with a camera or Hunker over a laptop for 18 hours at a time I’m not out on the course but that that sense of community and of there

Being sort of one single Focus that everyone’s just United behind people behind the scenes just call it the spine bubble and and and it is it’s it’s a absolute pleasure to be involved in um and that’s interesting really from from your point of view as as an

Athlete does that experience help you as you’re going up the way I I know it seems ridiculous that you know a cup of tea or a kind word could turn a whole race around but the the volunteers the spine family and that sense of community is that is that something that that

Helps you as an athlete along the way oh yeah I mean it’s it’s as you’re running it if you know that early time and there’s people cheering out the windows that growing up with the event and know it’s on and it’s built and and then you can just see the that it’s so

Big concept of running the spine or the pen away in Winter that people can just appreciate it and and that a and wonder of of what you’re doing and then the support that comes uh through and then then that that kindness um that’s all those intermediary kind of checkpoint

Places as well that have built up in the tradition of the spine the know the guys at Craven that come out and put on the the um the tri Club one there that’s just you know it’s at a point where it’s just really nice and kicks you on the

Way getting up towards malum which then helps you move on towards HS and and and then I can imagine it’s that same that up at the other end towards honeystead farm that you know that built into the the kind or you know people in slaggyford

After a that you know come out and cheer or you know it’s all day and night yeah day and night that does make a difference um and and it yeah it’s really really good part of of the race experience and I imagine the checkpoint teams too like they’re such a rare Pit

Stop on a race at this length that’s got to make a difference the sort of the the passing through there and just the the assistance that you get yeah no for sure it’s it’s the uh attention you get um you know maybe at the front end because we’re the first in

Or you know everybody’s ready and enthusiastic and in in the middle Zone it might be a slightly different story when there’s a bit more chaos and things but I think generally it’s still relatively the same yeah absolutely you know it’s it’s that point that helps revive so many people that

Makes some you know they come in it’s it’s a really really really long way between those checkpoints and it’s a lot of time and even the further back you get that time is expanding um so the difference those checkpoints make you know people can be on the verge

Of right that’s it I’m done and then three hours later with a bit of food a bit of foot care a bit of attention a bit of compassion and and a bit of sleep they they’re persuaded to turn around carry on um and their whole race is turned

Around and then they reach the Finish Line um and that’s usually the difference of someone at one of those checkpoints Point that’s taken the time and the passion to really try and help that person past that difficult point and sometimes it it’s not though it’s you know but it’s that person trying

That really counts um giving giving that person the the most opportunity to get past the difficult spot and and those what those checkpoints really are good at yeah I completely agree and sorry you’re um you’re getting hit with questions about this because I’m I’m sort of been writing about the volunteers and stuff

This morning so it’s freshing my mind but to um to get back to the race a little bit um and you know to draw back into the the challenge of the race a little bit what what’s the sort of toughest aspect of doing something like

The spine race for you I and I’m sure that’s that’s different for every athlete but what’s what’s the hardest thing for you to overcome going into this for me I think there’s there’s two really hard bits um one is the Sleep deoration aspect of multi-day events um you know I haven’t really

Reached that point on the spine yet but on previous like norn daverse or the Adventure races I’ve done previously it’s you know it’s those second third nights or where you try and push the envelope of where you want to not sleep that it just really plays habit with your your mind getting

Hallucinations the deja vu the uh the falling asleep on your feet it’s those moments of hardship that are really difficult to differentiate from reality when and and keep moving cuz it’s it you watch you certain past a certain point a checkpoint you you’ve got no choice but to try and push

Through to get to the next CH point and deal with it and and I think that is one of the biggest uh challenges that you can’t practice until you’re in in the moment in the race because you just can’t do it unless you’re in the multi-day

Uh race and there’s no point doing it in training because it’s just bad for your body bad for training oh yeah absolutely it’s a difficult thing to prepare for physically and and mentally and practically like how how are you going to fit that sleep deprivation into a functioning training cycle and probably

Having a family to interact with in a full-time job like that’s incredibly difficult the only way to do it is to be like in Keith or CLA banworth and IND just do lots and lots of longer renes and and have have better experience of

How you handle it um to the best of that you know that works for you um are there any particular tactics you’d use in race when you’re experiencing those sort of those those worst moments those moments where your brain and body are screaming at you to go to sleep for a

While uh I think the classic power naap is the the best way isn’t it is and in a race like this you’ve you’ve got no choice but to keep it short because you just get cold if you you stop for too long but I think just ping a little bit of shelter

And closing the eyes for five minutes just gives your mind enough of a break just to give you yourself the chance of battling on again um and I think that’s that’s the only thing that you you can do without actually taking a longer sleep which outside of outside of the world of ultra

Running that that sounds crazy as a sick for sort of surviving the world but that five minutes just a reset your brain might be enough to get you that next few miles to the next checkpoint where you can do something a bit more permanent about what you’re going through at the

Moment it’s it it seems to be sort of often about topping up enough to get you through this moment yeah tough to plan a head in a race like the spine further than the next CP really would would that be fair to say yeah I guess the other things you

Can do is you know I often shout at myself or you know if if I’m shouting at it you know it makes it more real rather than doing in your head um so you can sound like a real you passer by or anyone else close by you shower to get

Yourself and we’ve heard we’ve got plenty of video of John Kelly screaming to himself in the early hours of the morning and people singing at the tops of their voices out in the middle of nowhere yeah it yeah something to just focus your mind and project out

Some energy seems to wake people up just that little bit yeah I I agree with with with that one yeah the difficulty with the the che check points being so far apart is is that do you push the boundary and try and get to the next checkpoint or do you

Take the sleep now um and then benefit from that sleep you know it’s it’s that average pace scenario isn’t it which is going to get you the highest average pace absolutely and it’s really hard to tell for you know the front end ring into hes you know me and Damon at 10 in

The morning it’s do you know we got to make the most of the daylight but you know where does that now put us in to the Middleton checkpoint which is 8 n miles further on up the Valley now uh does does that have an impact

On you know or do you go the inke and take an hour at hor to make sure that you’re good to get to Middleton you know there’s so many possibilities yeah and I think the part of it is you have to react to how you’re feeling at that particular point and

Don’t get too sucked into a preset strategy have have a toolbox that you can apply and and then try and and then live with your decision yeah hopefully well that sort of preempted the last thing I’ve been asking everyone which is you know for for the guys that

Are listening to this and going into this challenge for the first time what what sort of advice might you give and I I think you might just have tapped into something pretty valuable there which is you can’t really adhere to a strict plan you made in advance because there are so

Many moving variables along the way so it seems more about having a a good adaptable system but not necessarily a strict plan yeah no I think it’s part of it’s thinking through potential problems that you may face ahead of time and and then have to think about what are the the

Scenarios and solutions that potentially to those problems so that you have that and to box to think okay what can I do in this this scenario what options do I have and then and then it gives you a a a chance to use that in in practice um you know there’s always

Going going to be a scenario that you haven’t thought about that you have to deal with um but by also by having that thought processes you’re already into a system of how do I solve rather than it’s it’s a barrier too much um to get

Past and yeah which which you know I I’m one that knows very well in certain moments you sometimes don’t get past that that barrier and but it’s hopefully try to set yourself hopefully try to set yourself up to overcome it to give yourself the greatest possible chance yeah

Know well I think that’s very Sage advice um from somebody who would know and Kim I’m I’m not going to keep you too much longer I’ve got a lot of uh interviews to fit in and I just it just sort of remains to say I’m really really

Excited you’re going to be there in January and I’m I’m very much looking forward to it and it’s it’s fantastic to hear that you are as well so thank you very much for this morning great see you in January thank you that you will see you in

Eale good afternoon then John Kelly John this podcast is really just becoming a mouthpiece for you now um it’s it’s a little uncom but it is lovely to have you back again how are you doing doing pretty well how are you doing it’s still still morning

Here my time but you didn’t wake me up too early so that’s good oh good stuff of course honestly it’s the spine bubble this is just an extension of it for me I forget sometimes that the people I’m talking to are on the other side of the

Planet um but yeah good good morning to you John um I I’m going to go straight in it caused a lot of excitement at this end when you sort of broke cover and said that you were going to be coming back to the spine race in January um you

Know I’ve got WhatsApp groups for the media teams and the management team and yeah that there wasn’t much else talked about that day um so thank you firstly for that uh we’re very excited to have you back again um it’s going to be great to see

You in edale um what happened what made you break cover in that moment or had you always intended to do it what could you can you talk us through what’s what’s brought you back to stline again yeah it was it was quite the journey on that decision this year because i’ I’ve

Been considering it pretty much the entire year uh ever since a bit of fomo tracking uh the this year’s the 2023 spine race I had been in touch with with Phil the the r director rest of the year and uh you know so I had toris yond and

Throughout the year I was kind of telling myself you know I really need to decide by the summer at the very latest but but then I I had some things come up in my schedule I had a a toe surgery uh planned for the first week of November

And and so I told Phil as like look can I can I see how this toe surgery goes what you know is as soon as possible after that also seeing that you know that the the western states and the Hard Rock lotteries um which you know

Those are the the two big ones here in the US and and I’ve been trying to get into Western States since uh 2016 I believe wow been unsuccessful in the lottery unsuccessful and and a couple of golden ticket attempts uh so that’s the kind of thing that I mean not

That it’s it’s it’s a higher priority than the spine but when you have that shot you just you have to take it yeah I understand dude we know we’re not the only race in the world um so was was waiting on that did didn’t get into Hard

Rock didn’t get into Western States my my toe surgery uh seems to have gone well uh so you know it was uh time to to make the decision and uh looking forward to to getting back and uh being back on that terrain back in that Community um back with uh some some good

Competition this year as well yeah it’s a strong rust it right we there’s there’s some very very familiar names on there and familiar because they’ve TR troubled the spine Podium quite a number of times it’s obviously I’m skirting around here saying Damen Hall who I’m going to be

Interviewing later in the week was was that at all a factor knowing that he was going to be back here again that there sort of quite a lot out there bigging up a rivalry between you two what’s uh what’s what’s the deal there does that is that attractive to you Damian and

Others for sure you know at this stage in my career while I’m still trying to compete it’s you know you need people to compete against if you’re going to do that and so if this were uh me coming back for a stroll along the pign way in

January would have as much value to me I I do think that there are you know as far as my own personal results there there’s certainly a lot that I’ve learned um in many different areas since my my first run at the spine back in in 2020 before the world just before the

World shut down uh so I I do want to get back and and to just achieve a better personal outcome and and see what I can do with those Lessons Learned but also having uh some some friendly competition there makes it much more meaningful and and also uh really helps drive towards

Those personal goals is a is a big motivating factor no that he’s either next to me or breathing down my neck or out in front of me to to chase yeah I mean look I have to lean into the viral re angle that seems to be the way that the popular ultra running

Press is is leaning with with the story between you two but I I love to see it as you say the the stronger the roster is the the harder you guys all push each other and the the more exciting the races from from my side of

Things where you know you guys give me an incredible story to tell and I’m very much looking forward to that now this being you know it absolutely not your first time at this and you having done so well when you were here before is there anything that’s changed

Between then and now is there anything that you’ve learned or that you think you are stronger at as a runner now than than when you sort of set the men’s course record absolutely I mean both in terms of doing these types of events in in general and uh specific knowledge of of

The panine way I mean that was really my I I had done the shei goat race just before that but but otherwise I hadn’t seen any of the pign way and and it showed I got lost for significant chunks of time a significant number of times uh

Most of those were were coming into or were leaving Villages I do find out on the trails but you know once I’m on roads it uh it all gets confusing and and unnatural so I I took a a very long Wrong Turn uh coming out of pause for

Example um but that’s that’s the first time I think someone caught me uh well no actually a wrong Char going into the first uh checkpoint as well um but anyway so you know I’ve I certainly spent some more time on Canine way I I I

Know the route I I know what I need for each section uh that was also an issue the first time I didn’t quite take everything that I needed for each section uh because I misremembered in my head uh what each section would have uh I I’ll be cracking you know that things

Things go as planned here I’ll be cracking the Thousand Mile mark on the Pine Way uh with with the Stace um and outside of that just these types of races in general you know I’m I’m known for doing these long multi-day things and in miserable conditions um but

I you know I hadn’t done much um kind of beyond the the 60h hour uh before this I had done uh toris YT my first toris YT was was a few um few months before that but but otherwise uh I hadn’t done these things where you kind of push past that

Threshold of uh being able to exist on solely on power naaps or maybe on nothing at all 60 hours is kind of that threshold for me so once you get past that in terms of strategy uh it’s it’s a different world uh the the 16 hours of Darkness per day

Uh dealing with the the cold and and the wet conditions these were all uh pretty new things for me at the time I didn’t it was only a month earlier on that sh shiv goat race that I I truly learned what a b was uh you know what one is now yeah

Thousand miles on right quite quite familiar with them uh so you know it’s definitely a A different race for me uh from a number of angles and that’s one reason that I want to go back and and see what I can do uh given those lessons that I’ve learned since

Then I I mean you mentioned then that you seem to have garnered a bit of a reputation for or doing extremely long distances in pretty horrible conditions um I mean I think largely that might be as a consequence of having chosen to do quite a lot of stuff in the UK and us

Just generally having terrible weather but you know you you’ve also been through the Barkley a couple of times now are you somebody who has just you become Adept enduring those conditions or do you thrive when it gets bad like that because I I’ve come across some people who it’s it’s almost like the

Worst the conditions are the more fired up they feel how how do you cope with that I I think it’s a bit of both I think it’s it’s a bit of enduring them it’s a bit of knowing how to to strategize to to kind of play in with

Them and and work your way around them uh and a lot just getting used to knowing that like hey I’m I’m in this position and it sucks but it it’s okay it’s going to be all right you know that you can get through you know that there’s another side to

It you know it’s it’s like watching what one of my kids play sports or run and and the very second that they start to feel any fatigue they’re like oh no I have to stop because they they’ve never experienced that before they don’t know that when you start to feel tired you

Can actually keep going for for a while and it’s okay that’s that’s part of it uh I I was actually I had a few rough days with with work last week some some travel and some things I had to go to and and there were like three nights in

A row where I got less than four hours of sleep and and on that third morning I woke up and I was like I don’t feel as bad as I should I don’t know if that’s an actual feeling or if it’s just that I’ve gotten used to feeling bad and in

My mind I kind of put in context all of these things I’ve done over that time period is like all of that would fit within one Barkley it’s you know this is this is similar to to how I would be at the end of of barly but but even worse

So it it’s it’s definitely kind of a shifting of of what you view as normal uh as far as excelling in those conditions I think that the thing for me is is I do view them as as opportunities uh so mentally every time there’s a new variable every time

There’s some new little complexity added uh that to me is is an opportunity to to gain and and to differentiate myself I I’m you know I’m by no means a slow Runner but I’m also not going to be running the marathon and the Olympics uh next year and so the difference there is

Is this isn’t just a pure foot race there’s so many other variables that you have to take into account and if I can do just a bit better on each one of those then that adds up to a a huge difference H that’s a fascinating way of

Looking at it actually that you know know if those weather conditions suddenly change and get very bad let’s reframe that because if I can cope with that well then I’ve got an extra advantage over the person behind me or just in front of me um I think that

Might be a useful thing to people to um try and remind themselves to go to in their heads when they get into that kind of position because that’s that’s a sort of exceptional way of viewing an obstacle that comes up in your path especially during an event like this

Where everyone involved in it is under a lot of pressure all the time to to keep on top of their condition to keep on top of the conditions around them and and keep moving that’s yeah it’s a fascinating way of looking at it yeah and one one quick thing that actually

Steve hell uh it’s a incredible Mountaineer uh roote training for the uphill bath we with with Killian uh speaking to him earlier this year after bark wi he pointed out to me that you know it’s really those tough conditions it’s those moments that those those are the reasons we we do

These things you know in terms of what we gain from these events uh what we learn uh what we take away that’s that’s far beyond just running or wandering around bogs and and mountains uh the lessons we take away that those are learned in those toughest moments so it makes zero sense to

Encounter those moments and then be like oh no I’m out I’m done like you’re quitting at the very point that is the reason you’re there to begin with is a very very good point just it the value that you get out of overcoming conditions like that the the the value

That you can take with you into other other races and other aspects of your life is um is massive uh and yeah you do seem to be some somebody who likes having a problem to solve that it seems a weird thing to say now I say it out

Loud but I see you as kind of a data driven person in how you approach things and it it it makes sense to me that you can look at the conditions like that and go right I can I can spin this I know I can solve this problem and I can make

This work for me and that’s kind of ruined the last question I was going to ask you because I’ve been asking everyone sort of what kind of advice would you give to other people that are coming into this for the first time but that that mindset that attitude might

Just be a golden nugget for anyone listening to this now just in case I’ve skimmed over some other incredible nuggets of information in there um I’m going to ask that question anyway because I think it’s it’s only fair to ask it of you and if I’m asking everybody else there are

Going to be quite a lot of people who are listening to this who are coming into it for the first time maybe they’re doing the Sprint which is you know hugely intimidating if you’re new to that disc distance you’re not going to be getting your handheld there isn’t a

Checkpoint every 10 km is is there a a a sort of golden bit of advice that you might give people coming into this for the first time um just something that might help them along the way well I I that is is typically what I give people going into these sort of

Things just to summarize I mean I think the way that dve Porton put it to me is is it doesn’t always get worse and remember these things uh you know a road race you kind of start feeling fresh and perfect and you gradually decline until hopefully you hit rock bottom at the

Finish Line uh and these sorts of things that there’s a ton of ups and downs when you’re on one of those Downs you have to remember that that you can pop back out there there will it might take a while in the spine but the sun will come up

Eventually uh and you know again Embrace those difficulties is is the reason you’re out there that that’s what is going to give you the the biggest sense of achievement that’s what’s going to teach you the most that you can take away to the rest of your life and don’t

You know expect things to to go wrong it’s uh in in any of these I kind of have a set of things that uh I it’s a bit arbitrary how I Define these words but here’s here are the things that I’m going to plan these are the things that

I actually have control over the you know what I start the race with uh thing things like that um I’m going to focus on those I’m going to get my plan right and then other things are what do I prepare where I am trying to Envision

All of the things that could go wrong all of the things that could throw me off of that plan and how am I going to respond to to each one uh and and so think about those ahead of time so that when you’re out there and you know your

Your jacket wets through or you start to get cold or the wind’s stronger than you thought it might be you know what to do you thought about that ahead of time and you know how to react so that you’re not standing out there freezing going what do I do now

What do I do now I don’t know what to do now and you know it’s I think it’s also funny some people um I don’t think it’s been British people that that have asked me this because they’ve experienced it the terrain more but I’ve had people who

Want to do the spine ask me like how do you keep your feet dry you don’t but get unless you’re out there in trout fishing waiters you’re not going to keep your feet Dr you can get all the gortex shoes and waterproof socks that you want uh and and

Eventually your your feet are going to get wet and uh so you know it’s it’s again expecting that those things are going to happen be prepared for them and just know how you’re going to respond so that you’re not wasting time trying to come up with your next steps while

You’re out there and cold and your mind is muddled and uh it’s dark and and everything else and this is it I mean you touched on sleep deprivation a little earlier like it’s it’s not a good time to be figuring these problems out for the first time when you are maybe 24

Hours out from the last time you had a decent amount of sleep or more much more at time s um extremely difficult under those circumstances I’ve I’ve also I’ve started preparing myself I’m growing my winter coat here so you know anything that you can do to again just just plan

Ahead and I mean seriously this is why I have not gotten a haircut in the past month is because this will add a little bit of warmth to me when I’m out there uh running through boxs in January you heard it you heard it here first people

But marginal game grow that hair if you can huge advantage over someone who say might have a mohawk out there yeah now that’s very true CU that doesn’t cover much of the head at all does it somebody with a mohawk out there could become very cold in those Hills dangerous oh

I’d be worried about that if uh if that was the sort of hair I had um now it’s easy with the spine race to sort of mine into this stuff being prepared for war it’s going to be really difficult out there but there’s stuff we enjoy about

The race right it there there has to be for us to keep coming back and and doing this so what are you looking forward to coming back to the spine race in January I mean I I genuinely do miss the the train in the landscape I know that

I’ll prob see it about eight hours of the day but if you’re lucky yeah being able to experience that and and really just the the crosssection of the UK uh that I haven’t seen much of in the past year and a half even even running through those those Whittle Villages

Which are are so quaint and and different from from what I have here as long as I don’t get lost in them I’m I’m looking forward to that I’m I’m looking forward to seeing a number of people uh that I haven’t seen in quite a while uh

So that’s that’s definitely a a big draw for me and something that I I do believe I’ll I’ll genuinely enjoy and genuinely appreciate my experience out there this time and and that’s been a big shift for me and a lot of things that I’ve done in in Barkley for example

Where I’ve I’ve gone from having it be this this thing that I’m stressed and and anxious about and I’m out there thinking of it in terms of trying to push through the misery and uh you know the the end of the spine last time for me was um that that

Was maybe the the most miserable I’ve been uh in in terms of uh the conditions I was in thinking I was going to have a kind of Sprint finish through through the shats uh and it it was it was rough um but I’ve I now I mean like Barkley this year

I just U I’m I’m able to enjoy it and and appreciate that I’m I’m out there and able to do these things uh to begin with and and recognizing every time that it might be my last opportunity to do so we’re never guaranteed another chance at

These things so uh enjoy it while we can excellent advice again um and you know you you mentioned there’s going to be quite a few people there you’re looking forward to see um I know the spine team are really looking forward to you being back there as well um and I

Guess that’s a factor in it too um the the sort of wider Community can’t wait to receive you back and I think that’s the case for sort of all the athletes that come through I’ve never seen so many people merrily serve Cups of Tea than in these checkpoints so they the

The effort that they’ll go to at 3:00 in the morning to to look after a runner is is astonishing and that’s that’s got to be a part of it from your side as well as an athlete yeah absolutely just just that to for me maybe but

You yeah no worries I’ll I’ll try and remind the checkpoints of that as I pass through myself look um when you’re coming back to the spine race you’re I can’t imagine that you’d be putting yourself back into this again unless you were sort of feeling quite strong and feeling quite

Well prepared for it but do you even come into a race like this with a with a Target or are we just thinking about getting through it and getting through it and feeling like you’ve equated yourself uh I I try not to and this

Again goes what I was back to what I was saying about the you know getting overly stressed about these things I try not to put uh too many of my eggs in in one basket these days and and view any single event as you know I have to

Achieve this outcome and I have to be successful and and if not then it was it was all for not failed uh you know there there’s a lot more uh to take away from it uh than the actual outcome uh everything has to be put in context of of the conditions that

That you faced uh and in the process you took to get there uh as as well as just you kind of looking forward to uh multiple things throughout the year and and keeping myself uh as as fit as possible and and able to do each of those uh rather than having everything

Build towards one big moment but I I certainly do have my have my goals uh at the spine uh but but it’s it’s not it’s it’s you know I have these discret very measurable goals that to me are are highly motivating um and that’s that’s what I try to focus

On going into something but but coming out of it uh it’s it’s it’s a very different analysis in my mind of again uh looking at the context looking at the experience and I what I really focus on doing now is is like Toran this past

Year a few months ago I did not have a good race I did not have a good result but I I kind of realized in my head that if I can if I can walk away from something like that and say wow I I didn’t do well um but that that was

Still a great time I’m glad I did that that was that was a fun adventure um then you know that’s that’s the kind of stuff that that I want to do yeah excellent and another really useful thing I think for people to hear coming into this like again whether

You’re doing that Sprint distance or you’re going for the big spine For the First Time Life Will Go On if you don’t get to the Finish Line This Time Around and you will have had an experience and you will have learned a hell of a lot

From it and probably drunk quite a lot of tea um yeah so thank you very much um I’m not going to darken too much more of your day John uh just to say we really are looking forward to seeing you in January and thanks for taking the time out today it’s it’s greatly

Appreciated yeah thank you very much it was a great to chat and I’ll see you soon yeah see you in EBD well good afternoon then it’s Damen Hall Daman how are you on Grand well uh just been out for a run got my my uh what’s the word yeah um oh

What’s the phrase I forgotten well big mug of tea but um um I hadn’t forgotten that phrase it was a self self self- parody um something like that yeah no I’m very well how are you I’m very well thank you uh also thanks for getting tea

Out the way early I knew there’d be a reference to that particular beverage somewhere in this podcast we can put that one to bed straight away that’s great um yeah I’m very well thank you very much uh very nice of you to ask looking forward to Christmas couple of days to

Get my breath back before we’re straight into the spine race but if that’s praying on my mind I imagine it’s slightly larger looming On Your Horizon um how you feel about January do you at this stage are you excited to be coming back or do you get a kind of Sunday

Evening before primary school feeling of dread where are you I’m really excited yeah um we often have these exchanges every year we have this exchange between maybe in the registration the morning of the race people often there’s a comparison of like is it worse to know what’s coming or to not know what’s

Coming like which one is which one is easier on the mind um but honestly I’m super excited you know I get classic ultra Runners Amnesia can’t really remember any discomfort or uh pain from my previous what four starts and three and a half uh well three completions um

And all I’m really excited um yeah can’t wait to get out there um it’s um it is on my mind a lot but yeah mostly mostly positive joyful excitement I mean who doesn’t love a good soggy bog well exactly what what else would you be thinking about over Christmas um

And you know you’re going to get to bump into a lot of people you haven’t seen for a while like a lot of the people that I’ve interviewed have have brought that up and and you know that’s the same whatever capacity you’re coming into the

Spine race in like once we get to eale it’s a it’s a little Jamboree watching everyone bump into each other but you got you’ve got a lot of Runners with very familiar names to bump into this time around in eale that that roster is looking packed for this year um how are

You feeling about the competition who’s who’s on it oh you haven’t looked no I don’t don’t even um who’s who else is running there were other Runners um one or two yeah I mean I tried very hard it’s not it’s not all that helpful to be thinking about

Other Runners so I try very hard to to not think about it but people tell you basically anyway and and then even you know on social media I mean hilariously Jack uh you know jack on paper would be my biggest competition he was very close

To me this this year or or last year um whenever people are listening um uh but yeah he’s been on he’s had a he’s had a place all year but kept telling me he um wasn’t sure whether he’s going to do it or not but he’s definitely doing it um

And I knew yeah came out of place early on so all three of us were were right back in um I’ve known that for a long time and then and then yeah a few other Frenemies have have jumped in jumped in lately um so it’s really exciting so you

Can’t you sort of can’t avoid knowing who else is going to be there um but yeah really competitive I think it’s it’s it’s it sounds like to me the most competitive uh race we’ve had in the yeah in the men’s field there’s at least five previous winners aren’t there uh

Yeah but yeah so what part of me is really excited it is genuinely catching up with friends both the runners and and staff um and then and then part of is yeah trying not to think too much about the runners I’ll be against but you often

Don’t really you know you run along you run a long way there’s plenty of time to chat and swap snacks and swap Sunrise you know share sunrises and and um I often forget I’m competing maybe I’d be better at this stuff if I if I yeah try Focus but

Yes um but no really excited about it ultimately yeah it and you know it sounds like a stupid question but I mean I’m really interested in that from from your side of it because from our point of view each time a new familiar name has been added to that roster we’re just doing

More back flips the the atmosphere behind the scenes at the spine races is just so excited at the moment um and you talk about names being added recently um obvious ly just before this recording started I uh I mentioned that we had somebody in particular who dropped into

The race this morning and I’m furious at myself that I didn’t ask while we were recording um because that news hadn’t got to you yet is so fresh but yeah yeah have Palante coming back into uh to do the penine way again it’s it’s a very

Packed roster like you say um and it it had always sort of made me wonder whether that Praise on your mind on the running because to us that’s a sort of excitement to you that could be a distraction um do you find that difficult on the runup to this to to

Just focus on what you’re doing or can you compartmentalize quite well um I’ve got much better at it I mean I must say I mean I want to I want to do well in the most competitive races while I still can so I would ra you know

I’m excited that there are there are the great runners especially at this sort of kind of Niche you know 200 mile distance um you know you wouldn’t expect the same Runners here that that do UTMB you know this is a this is a a special type of longdistance ultra running that’s

Different that has different challenges um and we’ve got some of the absolute best here and and we’ve got yeah Eugene rosello and and Ian Keith and pav Palante um between them blind me how many spine races is that it you know it could even be more than 20 um and that’s at least

Is that at least seven wins between them and it’s almost don’t make me do mats but the works yeah well pav from memory I think pavel’s completed it five times and he’s always been first or second um and they almost belong to I don’t want to say they belong to a different era

But but yeah there was a time when I was more of a DOT Watcher and um and and worked on the race with you well a couple of times in the media team um when those three were you know they were dominating every year um and and we’re

Yeah we’re almost in another stage now where time times have got a bit a bit faster um but it is more competitive and and yeah and often it’s not it’s often not the as Ian Keith showed uh last year 2022 um which was just such a such a

Lesson such it was wonderful uh well it wasn’t strictly wonderful for me because I was the one I was the one who yeah end but I’m glad with hindsight you can see how wonderful it was as a story and experience yeah you’re right it was it was the

Classic her and tortoise um you know me and Eugene were well ahead of the and in fact was he some like e early on or something you know he didn’t look even in the equation and and he just was so smart and so that experience that that

Being an older head um can really pay off in the in these distances so um yeah those guys can all offer something so it’s um it’s going to be really intriguing and there going to be I mean there’s going to be some Carnage it’s

Going to be it’s going to be fun oh AB absolutely uh I am fully fully expecting I’m going to lose my mind at least a dozen times during that week it’s going to be fantastic um okay and you know to stop talking about everybody else now let’s

Let’s focus in on d a little bit um how has your preparation for this race been like and and what does you preparing for this race look like these days and in fact actually actually well I didn’t didn’t even really answer your your question on my previous my previous

Waffle ramble um which was yeah how do I sort of stick to my own you know not think too much about the others um I mean I guess actually my dnf in 2022 was a really good lesson because even though it was going the race was going really

Well and for those who don’t know yeah I was sort of um four hours at had a 4 Hour lead but I was still I was still thinking too much about the people behind me and I was basically pushing uh at times when I I didn’t need to and in

Hindsight yeah that that I exasperated you know a small niggle became a proper injury because I was still pushing and pushing when I didn’t really need to at those moments because I was thinking about the other Runners and this year um yeah I mean towards the end it was very

Close to me and Jack but for a lot of that race I really wasn’t thinking about other people um I was just thinking how do I get to to C or or the next checkpoint in the best time for me you know and I really wasn’t and and that

Was really working so and then yeah end up end up with with a good result so I’ve got that good lesson there of of running away a race as much much as possible and not thinking too much about others and that’s that’s that’s really helpful what was the new question oh me

Preparation right yes I’ll do I’ll always just be one one answer behind um as uh yeah no um I don’t think there’s anything that would surprise people other than possibly the odds visit to saers but you know that’s my own my own uh thing but um getting prepared for the

Uh hot temperatures out there on the trail well it will be it looks like it will be warart this year but you know 34 degrees war or something um um yeah no nothing so yeah I did a big race in September so really was about recovering

From that so really chilled for a month or so and then and then you will have lost some speed and some economy so it’s working back on that so again not not big volume and and more speed work and and actually I did a bunch of local

Races just to try and get that speed up and just enjoy a different type of running um and then only really um from dece late November December you start to get kind of uh specific you know you enter a specific phase of training and that’s when I suppose the

Long runs come back in and you try and get similar terrain um I mean normally I don’t go up to the pen onway um because I’ve been on it before uh but I did I have popped up twice this time well once with an athlete and once just a visit of

Friend um and that’s that’s been nice um but often like in the black mountains are quite near me and the Breer beacons they’re fairly similar actually um in fact once a year or two ago I remember putting someone on Instagram sort of yeah what’s where is this the penines on

The back mountains and I think he had more votes for the penes um it’s it’s fairly similar um so yeah and I’m right in the middle of that now um long run yesterday so medium long run today go to Black mountains tomorrow actually for another long run so this is Peak Peak

Training um before I can settle in yeah settle into a big a big Feast at Christmas yeah I was going to say do you give yourself much of a break over Christmas and we’ve we’ve got so many competitors out there right now who must be spending their Christmas nervous as

Hell waiting for the spine race in January well will you at least get a bit of a break between here and there uh not really um well I guess from this that’s dedication sir um there are mince pies out there there are um I mean look

For example like I mean I rarely when I’m training for Big Race I rarely drink out for starters so I’m so I’m pretty boring uh anyway as you as you can tell from this conversation um and then and then sort of next week this week’s Pig training but next week which is

Christmas week um yeah I’d still train there’ll still be probably 70 70 80 miles of of running um but yeah hopefully not much works so you’ve got time to relax and recover and and yeah plenty of eating you know if you don’t fuel your training you’re just

Going to break so yeah I definitely enjoy I let myself have a good old feast um so that so I guess yeah no alcohol but plenty of food and plenty of training but also plenty of plenty of dad jokes and and that sort of stuff too I’m perfect I’m I’m glad you’re getting

Some of that at least I was mainly trying to gauge how bad I needed to feel while I was satting my UDI on the sofa um but yeah good to know you won’t be freezing to death the whole time um look you have a pretty unique perspective on

The spine race you kind of seen it from a lot of angles over the years um and people are listening to this partly due to you know the hype the the names on the roster but also I know that anybody who’s entering this race or thinking about entering this race pours over

Every podcast and blog looking for little useful nuggets of information so I is there anything you’ve accumulated over your your years of contact with the spine race that you think could be useful for these incoming debutants spiners to know uh could be bogy out there um yeah no there’s a few

Accurate um yeah there’s a few little I think helpful mantras that um or phrases that could be helpful I mean one is kind of you know feet and eat uh which is quite nice and memorable I mean you know Foot Care is is huge and if you do that

Right early on then you know as in as in the first major checkpoints you come to really take the time if you if you you know if you need to get some taping and plasters on they get them on there take the extra 10 minutes get you know if

There is a medic available to do that you know get them done properly especially at especially at say whes where you know you’re only a third into the race really um yeah take the time with your feet and then you know eat is is kind of obvious but it’s gets harder

And harder you know you got off food but the the the fact I always remember and try to remind people of is 20% of the calories go to your brain so if you’re not getting the food in you’re less motivated you’re making less good decisions um so you’re fueling you’re

Fueling your mind um so that’s important feet and eat and this came from UM got one more but I’ve totally nicked it from someone else from one of your previous podcast interviews uh be bothered was that Sharon Sharon Gator was it last year’s so that yeah that was

Really good be bothered so that means if your hands getting cold but your mittens are in the in your in you know you’d have to take your pack off to get the mittens out and you can’t really be bothered be bothered and and certainly with eating with getting your feet

Sorted yeah be bothered um with with changing the head torch battery now rather than waiting till it totally dies change the GPS batteries you know just be bothered um those things the people who look after themselves in the first kind of half early on you know they’re

Going to be the ones going strongly later on um so those I think those are useful again I might know actually answered your specific question but i’ I’ve said some hopefully useful things oh I think you very much did um although I know I’m going to go away from this

Interview now absolutely kicking myself because I can’t remember who said that I think it was yeah check that you know whatever it’s Sound Advice whoever said it and we’ll we’ll get it printed on a banner to go somewhere in eale um yeah no that’s exactly what I was looking for

And I appreciate it thank you um I you know I I also have tried to make a point of talking to people in these interviews a little bit about what’s good about the race you know there’s always a lot of talk with the spine about how hard it is

How difficult it is the word suffering comes up pretty regularly um and you know how much preparation has to be done to get in there but if if all it was was grueling and horrible then people wouldn’t come back so what what else are you what are you looking forward to um

When you get there in January well I think there’s at least yeah there’s at least sort of two different categories and one is is I suppose the The Human Side of of just there is you know without going too too soy you know there is a wonderful Community around the race

Um it’s it’s it’s the staff and volunteers um who it could be just incredible but also there there were just this kind of there’s this culture of almost popup popup strangers just appearing um in the middle of nowhere um just to give you you know an encouraging

Word or or or a couple of Haribo or a couple of cup of tea and either you know people you turn up but also people on the route that’s a that’s becoming a phenomenal thing isn’t it each little village now seems to have a sort of um

Designated Angel you know the angel of sagy for the angel of honeystead horstead um all these great names too um yeah it’s um yeah that’s just wonderful and and then for me yeah meeting so many people I see I suppose often once a year at this race saying hello again um

That’s wonderful so there’s the whole sort of human side and then for me there’s the um definitely the scenic side and and yeah the penan way isn’t everyone’s cup of tea it isn’t gorgeous from beginning to end um but it does have special moments um I mean High cup

Nick is is one of the most underrated sort of natural features in all of all of all of Britain I would say um and twice in previous races I’ve I’ve arrived at it covered in snow sorry I wasn’t covered in snow but it was covered in snow um at dawn um two times

Um if my is going well wow yeah it’ll be in the dark this time but as as the last two times but but that that could be really amazing and then you get these unexpected things that I guess weather phenomenons and um going over crossfell

In in 2023 that was really special it it was at least minus 10 with the wind chill but it meant the the sort of ice you know the wind sort of sculptures the ice across the Rocks so there were all these crazy patterns I was up there on

My own and it was just after it was just kind of dawn or just after Dawn um and the sky was kind of pink um and it I felt like it was in a I don’t know a bowl or a tent or something it was like this cloudy pink and I just

I’ve never experienced that anywhere and if an alien had sort of popped out of somewhere it just would have said totally totally fitting and I probably wouldn’t have been surprised I mean when I got to Greg’s Hut I mean it did you know it did feel you know meeting John Bamber is

Is not sure I’m going with that but but can be another worldly experience as well um but but yeah just those wonderful crazy strange moments um blankin sop often throws things up that you can you know struggle to remember clearly but because by that stage you’re chronically sleep deprived um but yeah

You’ll just those magical moments with with nature I suppose as well so yeah those are the two categories where I’m certain there’ll be moments of moments of joy and happiness well that’s good to know there has to be some levity out there and yeah had those aliens turned up at that point

With that level of sleep deprivation there’s there’s every reason to think you wouldn’t have known whether that was really happening or not yes there’s always a risk of that um and now look obviously I often feel a bit awkward when I come into these interviews Before

The Race because I you know I’m trying to tease out a little bit of oh who’s competitive who’s aiming for what is there anyone coming into this thinking that they’re going to nail it we’re going to win this year or anything and you guys are really difficult to tease

That kind of position out of um I managed to get a little bit of mild ribbing from John Kelly about something to do with Mohicans I but you know key I I it was mild it was mild it wasn’t the uh the the spicy you know vein of media

Content that I was hoping for um it’s such a friendly Community I think it’s difficult for me to dig for and I might just have to give this up every year but having added all those caveats are you going into this with any expectation

Of what the result might be or or do you try and insulate yourself from that um yeah I mean I’m afraid the the the best sort of the best sort of answer is kind of the boring thing that that uh you know this part there is

Part of my mind wanting to give you give you the answer you you you possibly crave or or or would or would would make this podcast that our listeners are yearning for I’m desperate to be John Kenny that Rascal um but I don’t need to because I

Beat him in the last race quite badly so I don’t need to say um although he did beat me in the previous race um on on his home patch uh convincingly so we’re having quite we’re having quite a fun in fact yeah so so we had these sort of fkt

Two and fro um in 2020 2021 and and he has had the last or latest laugh there and then we’ve only actually raced each other twice in in direct races and it’s kind of one a piece um there um so be yeah it’ be interesting to see what

Happens here I guess we know each other quite well we know each other’s strengths and weaknesses my weakness obviously being my haircut um but no I mean I mean on paper I mean Jack Jack’s got a faster time on on the penw winter the John um and there was some other

Very Runners yeah two previous again I haven’t looked to the roster at all don’t know anyone but there are two previous dragons back winners I believe uh so they’ll be they’ll be fast um so yeah there are loads of strong male Runners who could do well and and the

Female field is more stack than ever as well um including a couple of top athletes in mind um indeed so yes I don’t know if that qualifies as banter but that’s all I’m giving you but but all you know all I should be thinking of

Really is is is trying to get to get to the finish at the best possible time for me um drinking as much tea as I possibly can and I have ensured John’s preference for those who don’t know is for iced tea and and I have checked and that is not

Available at the checkpoints uh which is a great show really is yeah well thank you um I think that’s pretty much exactly what I thought I would get and there you go I I you know if this was a sort of more supercharged American style boxing sort of type of a

Thing we might be able to talk that up but I cannot get any of you Ultra Runners to uh to commit to a proper rivalry it’s all very very English um but yeah even I mean the field also also I mean the field is so stacked this year

I mean it I’ve studied this race like you have I’d say it’s the most competitive field for the I can’t get anybody to commit to a sweep stake behind the scenes nobody nobody at all um must say I mean that have got a stake in it yeah but also yeah I mean you

Could concentrate on me and John we may we both we may both not finish we may both not even be in the top three or even five to be honest the fields that good um so it’d be a mistake for me to yeah concentrate on him or anyone else I

Just keep saying Jack’s known to he pressure on him um and you never know I mean Kim Kim Collison’s going to get this race right one day um and then there’s the inke scenario isn’t there where we’ll just explode and then he poles poles through again like like the

Old uh yeah the old warhorse that he is um or or or Eugene finally Nails it or you know pavl on the comeback Trail um yeah absolutely CLA banworth has been indestructible over the last 12 months as far as I could tell we might need an armored personnel carrier to stop her

Out there you know there are there are a lot of strong performers out there not trying to build up the tension for you but I am so excited about this race in January um and very appreciative of you to uh take some time out today to have a

Chat with me um I’ll be going straight off the end of this interview into Christmas so thank you very much for being my uh last sort of officialish related yeah Drey chore of the year it’s greatly appreciated no problem at all uh see you and uh yeah see you in January