Tour Stories, Putter Fitting, & More | 2nd Swing Thoughts Ep. 28 | Mike Biviano

This episode of the 2nd Swing Thoughts podcast features 2nd Swing master fitter Mike Biviano. Mike is a master fitter specializing in putter fitting. His background in golf is extensive — he’s helped dozens of professional golfers win major champions with his club fitting insight. In this episode, Mike shares his putter fitting insights, stories from working with tour players, and more.

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The 2nd Swing Thoughts podcast, presented by 2nd Swing Golf, covers anything and everything in golf equipment and club fitting. The 2nd Swing Thoughts will feature experts in the golf industry sharing insights and latest trends in golf clubs and club fittings. 2nd Swing Thoughts will also cover the latest in professional golf.

Hey golfers and welcome back to the second swing thoughts podcast and uh I’m Drew mold and I’m joined today by Mike biviano and and we’re actually down here at the tour van at scotchdale our scotchdale store so I think this is the first ever podcast episode that we have

Recorded in the tour van at scotchdale so um we have a very special guest with us in Mike because Mike’s got a very exensive background um you know what Mike I’ll actually just let you do the introduction for yourself and uh tell the viewers and listeners you know where

You’ve been and what you’ve done okay well I am Mike biviano I am at the Scottdale store here in Scottdale uh it’s absolute honor to be here um prior to coming to second swing uh I ran the bardy golf studio for five years out in Chicago which was Putters Milling uh

One-of aind really unique pieces at bardy golf prior to that I worked on the PGA tour for about 25 years working for Royal Precision in Callaway Gulf um absolutely wonderful experience uh I enjoyed every minute of it uh as was very lucky I fit 27 people that won

Majors and you know probably another hundred people that won tournaments so in a way you’ve got more Majors than Jack and tiger in a way in a way I do you’ve you’ve you have contributed to more major yeah yep combined effort with multiple people but uh you know really

Uh I couldn’t ask for anything more as a as a fitter someone that did design development work what better place to do your work on is on the PGA tour right right and and so what you do now here at second swing you kind of it’s more of an

Emphasis on putter fittings correct yeah um you know I love the full bag um you know the last probably eight years I’ve really gotten involved into the putting Realm of the game and I feel this is the easiest way to help people become a better golfer if you think about the one

Club we use on every hole it’s our putter um if you are fit properly um yeah you can definitely shave some strokes and then it just revolves into the rest of the clubs because if you putt well everything else is easier yeah yeah and actually it’s funny right before we started recording

This off air we were you showed me an example of a you know tour pro you’re working with now and just a simple change that you made to his Putter and all of a sudden you you watch the you know the replay of his putting stroke

And the delivery of the Putter and it’s just the the putter sitting a little bit better on the ground at a dress changed everything so simple things like that like it for you it might seem very simple what a change might be but for the golfer out there listening they

Might think that it’s really complicated and that is that is exactly why fittings in general are so important uh the video I showed you was a video of Aaron badley you know probably one of the top five Putters in the world I mean he can roll

The rock even the best players at one point in their career will get a golf club doesn’t fit them perfectly this putter was about three degrees out of whack you know whether it got bent in traveling maybe he leaned on it somewhere it got tweaked where I said to

Eron I go you know what seems to be going on and it’s like well I feel like I’m push blocking everything and you know it’s one of those things where once you start going through the process looking at the setup seeing what the Putter’s doing that had push block

Wrting all over it because that putter was aimed left yeah now even these guys are incredible at TW things manipulating it you know but I said to Aon I go you know over the course of the year how many three Footers of you missed and he goes more

Than normal so we did The Tweak um I told him next time you go to the golf course just hit just hit some three- Footers till you’re blue in the face lo and behold the next day he calls me up and he’s like BV you know just hit three

Footers for about two hours I haven’t missed I go well I think you won I think it take me about three minutes to miss actually probably less than that then you know two hours without missing you get the right setup you’d be surprised how good you can get right right that

That’s probably the most rewarding thing for you probably is whether it is Aaron battley a tour pro or whether it’s someone that’s just starting golf like the the the feedback from them when the great thing about golf is is is when the customer comes back whether it’s a tour

Player or you know the guy who claims he’s the world’s worst putter when they come back and they’re like excited because they had their best round that’s the ultimate that’s the ultimate for me even after doing this for 30 years yeah yeah and uh I know you’re not the only

Fitter that’s told me that too I think that’s sort of a common theme among our team here is that’s that’s the number one rewarding thing is you know that that feedback from them so um we’ve alluded to it a little bit but let’s kind of turn the clock back a little bit

To your career um starting in golf shafts actually yeah so you started with golf shafts um how did you get into that and start there uh you know I was working in Upstate New York where I was born and raised um for a small custom golf club company where I was doing a

Lot of purchasing with True Temper Sports uh Royal Precision but back then it was called Brunswick and um out of the blue one day um Kim brilley called me up who is uh the director of design at Brunswick back in the day and he goes you know 27 years

Old you’re young how’d you like to go on the PGA tour I’m like uh where do I sign up for this game he goes well you’re going to have to drive the tour van to sight to site you know you’re going to be living out of a

Hotel uh but you get to follow the tour well I instantly said yes jumped on board and it was absolutely incredible um my first tournament I worked was the PGA at Valhalla okay and um I got the van all set up and I’m in there and in

Comes this the first person Roco mediate he goes who are you I go I’m Mike Bano he goes you Italian I go I’m Italian he goes want to go out to dinner tonight that’s where that relationship started yeah yeah Rocco uh one of my dearest friends um an

Incredible uh golfer a lot of people don’t realize here’s a person who’s had back injuries but yet he still continues to fight and win and be successful um but he here’s a guy who just basically took me under his wing we had dinner and you know he’s had probably nine wins

Since then and uh just just awesome yeah well he’s we’ve actually been lucky enough to work with him too on a couple of videos on our Channel um and he’s been just excellent for us and obviously um even he spent some time in Minnesota with Larry Bob cup there too I know

Those guys um will work together often but um that’s cool like even kind of creating those relationships and the fact that he able to help you out with that on your first week out there yeah made me feel welcome right out of the gate yeah yeah and uh we know him now if

You haven’t followed Roo on Instagram he’s got some really good stuff on there too so um but is kind of talk about working with Roco over the years then and maybe um how he maybe compares to like some of the other guys that you’ve

Worked with um I mean is he I know he’s very particular about his equipment um he he he’s he’s a little bit of a junkie uh very detailed um but he’s also one of these players that wants to know more and he understands when a shaft doesn’t

Fit him what does the ball do you know for really highly gifted people when a shaft is a little weak the ball tends to want to go to the right overly too stiff it goes a different direction he’s very dialed into his equipment where he’s always had success because his equipment

Always been perfect yeah and what I mean by that is when you start diving into frequency numbers he’s a he’s a 7.2 guy his whole career uh even today he still floats right around that stiffer than normal type material but when you watch his ball flight you watch the

Consistency you see his distance control um it’s impeccable um I played quite a bit of golf with Rocco here in Scottdale I think the last three rounds I’ve played with him he’s he shoots under 67 yeah religiously it’d be nice to do that once in a while you know I I’ll never really

Know that feeling I don’t think but uh he’s he’s he’s awesome I mean in the in the the short time that we’ve been able to work with him obviously that pales in comparison to the time youve spent with him but um and then plus going back to I

Mean he’s obviously I think for maybe the Casual player or casual golf fan he’s most remembered for obviously the the duel with tiger um at the US Open but he has a pretty impressive resume outside of that too he’s won a bunch um and now he’s still kicking it out the PJ

Champions and once again I mean people don’t understand the the extensive back surgeries he’s had I mean most people if they have that they’re not playing golf not only is he playing he’s competing he’s successful and he’s still doing it yeah it is really cool to watch him and

Uh we’re always rooting for him too uh so how about some of the other players that you’ve that you’ve worked with in your career I mean I know you the the list goes on and on but like who are some of the the favorites that you had

In your I me I’m going to be honest I am a I’m still a big Greg Norman fan uh Greg Norman was a big um Precision guy y had a an incredible run and then somewhere uh he switched out of the product and his game started to go down

A little he didn’t win his greens and regulations started slipping his driving accuracy was slipping and I’m I’m saying to myself now this is my first year on tour I’m like how am I going to get this guy back so I got to to know his cadd Tony

Navaro and you know I just go up to Tony and go hey how’s the pay cut and he goes what do you mean I go well you missed the cut I go you switch your shafts you miss the cut so couple weeks would go by and you know Greg’s still struggling a l

And Tony how’s the pay cut and I think he got tired of me saying it because it was probably about a year all of a sudden someone Taps me on the shoulder I’m on the Range in Memphis and uh it’s Greg Norman yeah might be the only time the back of the

Hair on my neck stood stood up obviously I don’t have any now but uh it stood up and I was like this is this is cool yeah and he goes Mike um I understand Tony’s taking a pay cut I like well you haven’t W in a

Year he goes that’s fair what should I do I think we should put your your Precision 7.3 shafts back in the back so we put him in in Memphis and he won that week that’s talk about immediate results he won that week he uh I think he went

To the World Series of golf which was in Akon Ohio the week after and he won there too so that’s that’s unbelievable it works clearly or I’m lucky unreal well yeah that would be but it’s it’s it can’t be luck if if stuff like that happens over and over in your career

Which when you when once again when you’re dealing with the best players in the world they’re good yeah I mean it’s it’s scary how good these guys are um being on the Range listening hit shots it’s a different sound it’s a different flight it’s it’s it’s pretty cool mhm

Yeah very very cool to watch and listen and even like you know I’ve been you know fortunate enough to go out onto like driving range say up into Twin Cities or at the 3M open right you go up there and you watch these guys and uh the the consistency of the ball flight

Over and over and over and then you know that to nowadays they’ve got you know their track man or whatever launch monitor they might have maybe some of them have multiple launch monitors out there on the Range but back then you know there was like like so when you

Were trying to work with tour players you know Normans and and mediates at the time you know these guys how did you like work with them on there no numers this is wild um that’s that’s such an awesome question we didn’t even have rangefinders yeah yeah so Phil Mickelson

Was the best at it he’d have bones walk off the range and put a towel down and he’d have a towel at 50 yards 60 whatever it is there might be 10 towels on one half of the driving range and Phil’s just hitting shots learning how

Far he was hitting clubs you know we we we walked off a lot of things on the Range we’d put markers out there we knew this was 150 160 170 and okay hit at that stake I mean we didn’t like I say we didn’t even have a range finder to

Shoot it it was you know that’s crazy mean today you even a lot of you like the driving ranges you go out there there’s all there’s different targets out there and you just take rinder boom you got a number and then obviously if you have some sort of a launch monitor

Which those are becoming an option for you know an affordable option now that you can have you bring out there on the range with you as an maybe a casual not competitive player and still get the numbers you want yep but not even close to what you guys were doing back then

Which is literally walking off all these numbers I remember Hell Sutton came into Phoenix and hell was another guy who had an unbelievable relationship with uh one of the finest ball Strikers you’ll ever see and uh when he came out to to Phoenix uh we went out to TPC and it was

One of those things where I contacted director of Golf Bill Grove and I’m like hey I’m coming out with hell going to use the back of the range he’s like what do you need I go is there any way we can get pylons set up and they they they

Walked them off and I had a whole section of the range that was you know 10 yard increments with pylons and that’s what we used to do yeah wow that’s fascinating cuz that’s something that I know basically from this point on and maybe the last couple years and on

That will be taken for granted is how easy it is to get your information about your game and shots that you’re hitting because back then you you know if any casual player goes to the driving range 10 15 years ago even longer don’t have a rangefinder nope you don’t and there’s

No launch monitors and and you know tour van Bays or Club fittings to get information for me you’re just hitting shots and that that feels good that looks good that’s an old school method of fitting and I’ll tell you what though it is a awesome mhm you know when you

Eliminate the technology now you’re relying on the player to hit a shot and give you feedback and you’re relying on yourself to digest what is that ball doing is it spinning too much because now you could see the Flight of the ball climbing and Landing soft you know you

Can always get the guy who sort of crowns it a little bit where the ball goes out and falls out of the air I mean that’s that’s the art of fitting is understanding what is the ball doing how do you make it Fly better yeah yeah

That’s and it remains that way too it’s just now there’s all this information and it’s and I I imagine in your case and and maybe Club Fitters out there that have worked over the last you know couple decades where things have changed and there’s all this information right

Away when a shot is hit in the bay it can almost be like almost too much you feel like sometimes you almost question it because it’s happening so quickly yeah you know you hit a shot into the screen and that Ball’s hit in the screen and oh here’s

Your launch here’s your spin here’s your total here’s your distance like how’d it do that when it’s still in the air yeah pretty good calculation right I mean trackman has given you guys like it’s almost you know like it’s a blessing and a curse in some ways um and I think I’ve

Talked with Larry about that and he said something similar you know it’s a lot of times he’ll get like he’s worked with college players right now where they have all this information and sometimes it gets in their heads of well I need to hit the ball further this is what I need

And then Larry’s kind of stance sometimes as The Devil’s Advocate is well no I mean if you don’t like the ball flight or you don’t like how it feels then why would you I I see it quite a bit um when I use Quint Tech which is a really great state-ofthe-art

Design development software teaching for putting where it will give you a launch angle it will give you a forward backspin it’ll give you a side Spin and you know I look at things a little differently because we don’t want to confuse the player if one number is

Great which is the most important number and then you have another number that maybe isn’t perfect but not bad yeah there’s always that one player trying to chase Perfection that’s when yeah true the technology can get a little sideways yeah um cuz we’re not perfect yeah and

You know swing in a club whether it’s 5 six miles an hour or you’re using a driver where you’re generating 120 25 miles an hour some of these guys it’s just incredible but I think because of the technology it’s people have learned how to swing the club faster yeah you

Know yeah I think I I I think I would even say that that was I’m one of those people that um just now being s second swing for you know 5 years and watching Club fittings and doing these videos and stuff you kind of get a sense of how to

Swing and how to use the information technology with with great Fitters that we have the education that we have the technology that we have you can you can pick up some speed relatively quickly yeah there’s there’s and and hit it straight right right yeah there it’s

It’s it’s wild and then I mean back from in the 90s when you’re using you know small I don’t know what the the the volume on those things was but certainly not 460 like it is today 280 a little different little different um I I I want to ask more

About Phil because I know we’ve talked a little bit off air today as well about just how you know fun it was for you to work with him and the fact that he was almost he has so much knowledge already and you you’ve seen it like in media and

Stuff he’ll you know he’s talked about his equipment before the famous clip is the U the clip when he was on fairity a few years ago and he talks about all these different elements that you have to consider on any golf shot um but he’s also the open book and wanting to learn

More trying new things to get better and that I know you’ve experienced that with him I I was very lucky um you know once again one of my first really good players to work with was Phil um you know living in Scottdale he was in Scottsdale uh his management

Group was here in Scottdale um I was able to build a rapport and get access to him relatively quick um what was great about Phil is he he’d pick up the phone and call you know like hey Saturday I’m free you want me to hit something he was fantastic at testing

Product helping us develop products but more importantly he was using it to help develop his game and get it to a point where he can compete in Majors um you know when I met Phil he was with YX which was a graphite shaft company I sort of uh you know approached his

Manager and a uh a young 28-year robust fitter I told him he’d never win a major he looked at me like I had my head on crooked um I think Phil missed the cut that week and I get the phone call on their way home Phil’s going to be at the

Office you got one chance to make this work lo and behold Saturday morning I’m waiting for Phil we went through the whole process what royal Precision was all about with golf shafts and um by by noon we had a set route at the back of the range at greyhawk and hitting balls

And he instantly bought into it um it was right around the time where we were also developing Project X which is a product that he was one of the first people to hit put it in play instantly had great success with it um I think he

Won you know his first Masters was y with that and it springboarded from there right right um but he he was a he once again back to your question he was a guy that liked to try things he was always looking for that edge how do I maintain consistency maybe not have to

Work as hard because my equipment is so good right it’s I I appreciate your how you know maybe forthright you were a few times back when you’re young in your 20s you’re out there you were you were telling Greg Norman’s caddy how’s the how’s the pay cut and then you went to

Phil’s team and you said he’s not going to win a major and You Know It uh for you it created these kind of cool relationships opportunities for you you know coming from companies that weren’t necessarily the biggest but you believed in the technology and what they were you

Know you had to figure out ways to get in there you know once we landed Phil once we had Greg Norman back uh you had people like Rocco having success Lee Jansen to us opens it made it very easy to approach other people because those are the people that people

Watch what’s he doing yeah if he’s t in with something maybe I need to Tinker with something right kind of adds a level of credibility maybe also helps grow these sort of these companies these brands that you know uh that you were working with and that’s that’s really

That’s a cool story of of how that all came to fruition so um I kind of want to now almost take it from the tour to now second swing so you’ve over the years you went you were with Callaway um after the the Roy Precision then you were at

Betard for a little bit as well so through all of that we worked with a lot of the best players in the world now you spend a lot of time working with you know like skullers like myself you know average players um you notice a big difference between the two like

Obviously the skill level is one thing talent but obviously the Tour player can pick up things quicker yeah uh the neat thing with golfers we all have a passion to get better we will try just about anything to get better um you know from my years of experience on the tour I

Have built a level of confidence that I have to where when I do work with regular players I tone it down give them the best information I can use the technology I have and I’m seen fantastic results in making people better at playing golf from what I’ve

Done in the past and you know when you get that customer who comes in and goes I am the world’s worst putter it’s a challenge to make him better I mean I I did have a person tell me that I go well how do you quantify being the world’s

Worst putter he goes well I’ve never had less than 40 putts that’s a lot now I will say this this individual was not the tallest person in the world uh he had a standard 35 in putter when he addressed it it looked like he was putting with his

Three-wood you know clearly hey can you has anyone ever told you to get closer he goes yeah all the time well let’s get closer well his idea of closer was like an inch yeah I’m like all right let’s take a picture let’s show you what you

Look like and he was like I knew I was bad but I didn’t think I was that bad yeah the neat thing with the camera and the technology you can get a person to get in a really good position instantly once you get them in that position you

Get them a putter that now fits them which in this guy’s case might have been seven in shorter wow yeah now the putter pretty drastic change but well he had this Cameron that was 35 in and we’re not going to pick on Scotty but he was wearing out the Scotty

Cameron on the heel the toe was up so high you know even even trying to break the ice with the gentleman I said have you ever whiffed he goes at least once around I mean the toe was up so high and he was so far away yeah literally swung

Over the ball if he wasn’t careful yeah so so and it’s it’s almost like you know I think to your point that you’ve uh mentioned to me before and even in this uh podcast is that you know the putter is the club that you know unless you chip in or hole out or

Something you’re going to use every every hole you’re going to use it on every hole is in many ways more important to get fit even than your irons than your driver than yeah I mean you know they come in all the time and it’s like okay I I like putting but I’m

Not great and it’s if we can eliminate one three putt around then it turns into two now all of a sudden that person goes from 35 putts to 30 and maybe they get into the 28 range you want to see someone get excited about golf that’s that’s it and

It’s it’s just rolling the ball rolling it trait versus manipulating yeah yeah I think that’s maybe almost a a I want to say a misperception but I think a lot of golfers think Club fitting they think driver they think irons and we putter is is just as important if not more

Important we neglect the putter because it’s the club that we’re only swinging five six miles an hour yeah you know we we look at the driver it’s you’re going gang busters 100 plus a putter it slow how much does it matter it’s a ton yeah you know I I I tell

Pretty much every customer I have an inch is a mile two degrees is a trip to the moon you get things dialed in and they they get they get excited quick yeah yeah I think I mean clearly we’ve all experienced that you’ve experienced both as a player I mean on your own

Right but also with the customers you’ve worked with it can make a gigantic difference um I guess I want to leave you with maybe one question and then we’ll start to wrap up here but um for a player out there that might be sort of on the fence about getting fit they

Might you know see this stuff about how a fitting can make a big impact or fitting can you know change your game and but they they think it’s kind of almost you know for about lack of a better word propaganda is there anything that you would maybe tell them to kind

Of reassure them that this is right if you’re a beginner novice you play once a week or you play five times a week getting a fitting is the best thing you can do in the game of golf the neat thing here at second swing it’s not intimidating you come in it’s a very

Relaxed environment all of our Fitters here are all excellent golfers they’ve been around the game for a long time they’re schooled great um to come in here and spend two hours most people wish they could spend four hours that’s how good of an experience it is MHM um and you will see

Results yeah and that’s ultimately that what leads to lower scores more fun that’s the goal you know look if you just look at the guy who plays once a month if you can make it fun for him where he hits one more Fairway or he reduces his slice in half he’s going to

Enjoy himself well now he comes out twice a month that’s that’s wi for the game win for the game win for us you know it’s it’s a great thing exactly exactly that’s that’s a phenomenal way to to wrap this up I think um this was uh a

Very fun conversation to look back at your career but also I mean just speak some truth about Club fitting a little bit and and uh we will always be a huge proponent of anybody getting fit it’s going to help your game it’s uh going to help you shoot lower scores so we

Recommend that you schedule that fitting get with Mike here at the tour van in scotchdale uh get your putter dialed in and shoot some lower scores right so absolutely uh Mike thank you so much for the time um some fascinating stories and uh just a lot of fun to have here um I’m

Really looking forward to having the viewers and listeners uh get their hands on this one thank You