A Hobby Discussion with Nat Turner – Collectors CEO

#SportsCards #TheHobby #Collect
Bench Clear Media Production
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[Applause] yes welcome to the Golden Age of cardboard podcast where we remember a time when stacks of cards were held together with rubber bands and Mickey mandles were put in bike spokes we hope you will enjoy and reminisce as you come along with us as we tell stories about

The baseball cards from the Golden Age of baseball we will examine the state of the vintage baseball card market and talk to some of the greatest collectors in the hobby you won’t be hearing us talk about any Chrome or shiny cards here now to take you on this retrospective Journey here’s your host

Direct from the shallow end of the Jean Pool my son Mike Moan yo and hello everybody Mike here yep it’s me uh I am back I was on a brief Hiatus I’m coming back a little bit sooner than I had expected to but the reality is I have a really fun episode in store for you guys today I uh

Want to give a quick thanks to the guys that guest hosted for me over the last number of weeks uh I appreciate all the guys dming me on Instagram or wherever just saying can’t wait till you’re back and and here we are uh mid December we’re getting close to Christmas

And I have the opportunity to talk to a gentleman today that uh personally I admire a lot in the Hobby and what he does I love that he’s a collector and it’s none other than Nat Turner who is the uh president and CEO of collectors

Of PSA and y’all know me I’m a PSA Homer not gonna lie so I’m super excited to have this discussion and here we go I’m GNA bring that on and we will start talking hey Natt how are you doing man hey I enjoyed that intro I was laughing that really is my

Dad uh yeah thanks for being on the show yeah thanks for having me you’ve done hundreds of interviews this will be you’re gonna end up saying this was the funnest I’ve ever had because it’s might be yeah well I I my heart is in the ventes and 90s basketball those are my

Two and there unfortunately they’re not there aren’t that many podcasts in 90s basketball so this is a vintage I’m excited to talk about vintage for sure I’m gonna try to hit on one of your sweet spots right if we’re not talking about that um again I want I

Feel like I’m under a lot of pressure here Nat so have patience with me because I feel like I’m representing a lot of the Vintage world that gravitates towards PSA as their kind of slab of choice let’s say um most collectors are like me I don’t I don’t like a

Frankenstein collection I’m kind of I want everything to be the same and although I respect what some other grading companies do and and it’s not a knock on them it’s just more I made made my bed with PSA 15 years ago and I’m lying in it you know and I’m just and I

I enjoy the continuity of having PSA slabs in my collection and so I I feel like there’s a lot of guys that are loyal to PSA and we’ll talk about PSA later but the the reality is I want to talk to you now and for most of this just about you tell me

A little bit about your collecting history and for those that don’t know how long you’ve been doing cards and all that stuff yeah yeah um I’m a huge collector of cards um I have been for a very long time um for as far as my age

You know most of my life so I started collecting when I was probably five or six years old um I was I grew up in Texas Louisiana places like that and the Braves my dad’s from Atlanta my Braves are were his team and we grew up I grew

Up also like overseas we moved around a lot and the Braves were the consistent thing for me because you could watch them on TBS um and yeah and Hank Aon was my dad’s favorite player um and we sent three baseballs I have a sister we sent

Three baseballs one for my dad one for me one for my sister to Hank Aaron when we were living overseas and Hank Aaron sent all three back signed I have I have mine right here that’s awesome yeah and then when I was in second grade my dad

Gave me these two exact cards okay these 75 and 76 um and uh that pretty much got me started in card collecting um so I started collecting baseball cards uh this was like 1992 93 um I kind of lost interest in baseball in 96 only because of uh the

Steroid stuff was you know later on like in in the late 90s but then Kobe and we were in Houston by that point point we won the championship after Jordan retired for a couple years right before that um started picking up basketball but then in about 20091 I I started

Getting really into vintage baseball um or would say back into it a little bit U my dad had a collection which wasn’t so great you know the the bike spoke cards and the whole thing um but I started buying um frankly just r randomly on

EBay I saw like oh PSA 7 52 tops Willie May like these were not and the cards were you know one tenth of what they’re worth now sure you know and so but I was buying just the cards that I liked and that I recognized you know from when I

Was a kid because we’d go to card shows and shops and all that yeah so I was a card dealer basically as in a high school and middle school um and I never stopped like through college until now like you know I’ve gone up since you know I’ve really got into collecting

LeBron James in 2003 Mickey Mano I started going big on in like 2010 um you know I do player collections then I do sets so I have a lot of sets um doing like in baseball I’m doing like 59 tops 54 Bowman which you talked about

Before the show 75 tops and tops of mini are my two probably most coveted sets uh I just finished 1915 crackerjack um you know a bunch of stuff so yeah yeah Cracker Jack’s no joke yeah it’s not a very I mean it’s it’s a I bought a complete set but I it was

Unfortunately broken up a little bit I’m I’ve been trying to buy back the originals I I’ll I’ll explain it in a minute if you want it’s super yeah go ahead just go now well it’s a sequentially cumed set so a guy um as I’m sure you know uh you you could get

That set as a Redemption back then right and uh in fact hold on I have it um okay yeah one sec yeah so back in the day if you sent in for the Redemption you would be sent back the uh complete set in this binder okay uh if you could see the logo

And everything I can yeah that’s fantastic and if you open it up it’s super fragile it has little pocket squares or pocket you know Corner pockets for all and it says manager third Bas so anyway whoever had this set for many years uh sent it into PSA at

One time and every card was sequentially C numbered um and most of them pretty low grade but uh they’re really cool the the instead of like a bright red they’re almost like a maroon like a purple um whatever ink they were using that day um so anyway I’m basically TR but he he

Sold he tried he upgraded like 10 or 15 of them and unfortunately sold the The Originals so I’m like slowly trying to buy back the The Originals um from from that submission so you hoping they show up on the registry somewhere and somebody in the registry uh you know I’ve got use

Like I use card ladder alerts uh you know I’m on obviously Heritage and memory lane and Rea and all the sites every time an auction opens I’ve actually found two or three of them um so yeah they’re but the registry is the best place for it because you can go in

And just search by the c number on someone’s set so so if you lived overseas a lot growing up you didn’t you didn’t get go to a lot of card shows and stuff growing up did you uh yeah so I lived over there for six years uh for

Those six years there it was nothing and uh when we moved back to Louisiana that’s when I was uh that’s when I started hitting card shows again yeah do you like the card show environment is that a fun place for you like is that a happy place uh this the national is my

Super Bowl I love it I’ve been going for years before PSA before colle ctors um the local shows are Hit or Miss like for me like what I collect which is vintage baseball and ’90s basketball those are my two big things to be honest you don’t

See a lot of it of both of those things where I go at least in the New York area you see a lot of Ultra Modern basketball and football and baseball cards which I just don’t collect um you know and so and that’s fine like you know that’s the

Next Generation or whatever the national though like yeah like you know I’m doing a bunch of sets um you know it’s a somewhat obnoxious but like most of my sets you know I’m doing in like higher grade like you don’t you don’t go into a show in Westchester County in a in a

Marriott ballroom and find a PSA 10 1975 tops card sure um even though they’re a couple hundred bucks like you know it’s just not something you typically see so but the national you know is certainly a lot um yeah I like this you know not every show I actually the lowend shows I

Like I bring my meaning like small I you know I bring my kids and you know they love you know because they collect like Pokemon and like all this stuff that I’ll never understand um exactly yeah so yeah I mean to me the show experience has been fundamentally the same for 30

Years right I mean yeah there’s been more bells and whistles added to Nationals and things like that but the reality is the basic show experience is relatively unchanged and that’s kind of cool that that you know you get dealer has a table and they got a bunch of

Cards you look through and see if there’s something you like uh I can see how the Wii they had a Wi-Fi that worked in air conditioning I think we’d be in a better place right good point good point uh so you love the national do you wish the national would

Move around a little more or or do you like the rotation it’s currently on in terms of location I wish it was in Chicago every year maybe Dallas as well um I’m not a huge fan of Atlantic City we had one of our Affiliates employes get beat up on the boardwalk after one

Evening um so like we’re we’re that’s a and it it it was bound to happen I mean it’s just not a conducive place to you know have a lot of valuable um cards and you know things you know in your pocket and I don’t know just didn’t feel safe

Um and it wasn’t uh and you know I think Chicago is better I think they have issues with this convention center like I said with Wi-Fi and air conditioning that was pretty brutal last year was or this yeah this past uh I don’t know I think Cleveland will be fine I mean

We’ve been there before you know but I just think it should be more cons in my opinion I I have no say in the matter but I would love I would love them to pick a great spot and it just it just happened I think you know doing it West

Coast is tough because then all the East Coasters it’s hard like I just kind of think you stick to Chicago down to Dallas and just you know uh play nice for everybody like AC like tons of my buddies in the hobby from West Coast didn’t go yeah same here yeah same here

They’re like yeah I’m not no thanks yeah you know uh Dallas would be great for me that’s basically my backyard so and Dallas is more of a mecca for the hobby than I think people realize yeah there’s a there’s a lot going on here well the

Dallas shows are are solid um like you know the have you been to a Dallas show before I have yeah yeah um for basketball cards this is a few years ago now but it was solid for basketball I mean like 90s basketball there was quite

A lot of of uh of dealers there um friends of mine who go but I mean hou would be good I mean Dallas is better but I mean Houston you got the where I used to have a a booth at the George R Brown Center down there um they used to

Have a good I think it was a trar show maybe trar show yeah twice a year they do a trar show yeah they only do it once a year now in February but yeah I don’t think maybe that’s not big enough for the national but um it’s pretty big but

Anyway yeah that that’s my opinion on the national yeah I mean it’s uh the other shows like you said and this is true for me if I go to a even a Dallas show which is a lot of modern Ultra Modern right I I’m only really stopping

It the booth maybe you know that have vintage and it’s very easy to see on a table you look and you’re like yep not for me not my kind of stuff and you just move on but uh I’m excited I’m gonna try to go to Strongsville this year oh cool

Coming next year which is a all vintage show right and that I’ve never been yeah I think that would appeal I’m I’m starting to travel more to do shows just because I want to experience all these things I went to Burbank this year in February I guess technically

Ontario uh see what they’re doing it’s it was a good show it was fun I’ve been to chanelli and yeah Nationals and stuff but um so vintage baseball let’s get into some vintage baseball because Hank Aaron your dad’s favorite player which is awesome and not surprising he was

Pretty amazing so have you done the Hank Aaron run in honor of your dad kind of thing I’m trying yeah so I’m doing uh again it’s obnoxious but like I I have this thing I just like I try and get tens and it’s just it’s so freaking

Expensive and like impossible but um you know so I I go down the nines a lot obviously so yeah I have an errand from every year uh 54 through 76 um I’m not doing the like All-Star cards yet or like the the I mean I have

The the 76 one and a 10 because it’s one of the first and those aren’t those are pretty achievable but yeah I mean I don’t have a 10 in all of them obviously I have the rookie which I’ll show you which is my favorite card in my entire

Collection um and then my other favorite would probably be the 5610 which is awesome okay um yeah but then I have and then I have the I have the 591 and the 75 and a n the 75 is a nine I don’t think there’s a 10 still uh the last

Card 660 um which I actually bought at the Westchester show that I was making fun of a minute ago um but guy who’s not a friend of mine walked up to me I was asking uh dealers about 75s and he came up to me and he’s

Like hey I have this and he didn’t even have a booth I just bought it from them on the show floor yeah but uh yeah I have I have one of every card but it’s it’s not a I’m I’m trying to upgrade them you know over

Time oh my favorite my favorite uh Aon other than the rookie I have the 75 mini 10 that’s one of my favorite cards so yeah is there a decade that you kind of gravitate towards 5067 kind of in that vintage era um probably 50s I mean I think

They’re just so damn expensive now like I can’t I mean it’s you know like I’m try I tried to do a 52 set and I gave up um you know uh you know I wanted to do eights and nines it’s just hilarious how hard that is uh you know unless you buy

A set um I think the 50s are just it’s so hard to beat the designs every single year 60s to me I love uh uh I would say like one year uh like 62 I think is just such a cool design but like I’m not a

Huge fan of like 63 64 65 like the designs of them I mean like they don’t they don’t like speak to me that well um 70s I think are super cool I really love 71 and 75 not really the other I mean look I like them all I’m just like the ones

That like really stand out to me are the ones I just said um but uh 50s like there’s pretty much every single year including Bowman are just awesome yeah to me 53 was the best year they ever made cards yeah my favorite set in 50s

Is 54 okay yeah love it yeah um but I love 59 yeah yeah you know see I love 54 Bowman uh you know I don’t know it’s just to me like the curse of letter I just it’s such a cool design I’ve opened a few packs um I don’t know I just I

Think it’s such I think 59 with the colors starting in 58 with the like the color backs like it’s just so color blocks behind like it’s so tough to beat um and I remember reading a story about 59 when someone opened a box like on an

Airplane count uh uh what do you call it trade table and yeah yeah um but anyway yeah so like for example here I just brought this to show you here’s uh here’s 54 Bowman un open box oh my God uh nickel pack I think everybody has one of those well

This one’s interesting I you know if you want the story like a guy a friend of mine I was who knows nothing about cards knew I collected cards and he’s like hey I’ve got this woman who works for me she says her husband has some

Cards um you know that he might sell I’m like all right 99.9% of time it’s nothing guy’s really elderly you know he’s like 85 um I get on the phone with him he doesn’t know how to text message or email he’s an awesome guy he knew how

To email but he was like I was texting with him he’s like just call me and he’s like yeah you know I got some boxes and I was like what boxes do you have he’s like well I think I have a 54 Bowman pack at least a pack I was like oh wow

That’s awesome and then he calls me like a few days later he’s like actually it’s a whole box I was like what and he had it he bought it at a card show in like I don’t know decades ago and um it was in

His his bank and he had to go get it and anyway he was in Lexington Kentucky i f or was that where it was yeah I flew down me grabbed it gave him money flew up to Indiana gave it to Steve Hart to confirm yeah and then went back it

Basically told him it was great you know everything passed and yeah it’s like the coolest thing I’ve ever seen but um anyway that stuff still is out it’s just crazy that that stuff exists right that you can find that stuff a dude knows a dude who knows a dude right and yeah

Thank God I like took it seriously you know uh right that’s crazy although I found a few of those at Walmart the other day I was looking for cards there were a few of those lying around I passed on them um yeah that’s interesting so like I’m I like 1960 tops

For some reason just yeah I’d love that even though it’s horizontal and that be annoying uh but the 62 it’s like like you said they’re all good right it’s not a question of I I hate any of them no yeah some of them yeah I kind of dig I

Like the 65 actually they 60 wax nice um I think Yaz is on one of them I don’t remember um yeah but in it for sure yeah yeah yeah it’s awesome yeah I I think 62 I just love 62 I have those boxes over there too I just

Think it’s so cool the the design I don’t mind the horizontal nature I love that about 56 um I just also love how they had a a front like 54 as well they had the portrait and then they had an action behind it yeah um pretty intricate design like when you

Think about it and they got a little lazy I would argue in the 60s um no doubt yeah you know and like the oil paintings you know in the 50s like how do you beat that like 53 you’re right on like I’ve seen the wiie Maye oil

Painting from 53 like so cool yeah that’s it’s a great year so when you have unopen wax like that is it any Temptation at all to crack it so yes but the on the big stuff no like I would never consider opening these um what I

Do sometimes open is the I have them over here I bring them if you want I have a I have a one of my favorite sets on the registry is I have a pack run from 51 through uh 89 tops and um you know when I was

Upgrading like if I had a PSA 6 68 pack for example I’d you know have a glass of wine and be like screw it let’s see what’s in there um and you know and and I had I did buy once 20 54 bow the the SW of Bowman 54

Bowman I had 20 packs I think it was it was a partial box someone found and they graded each pack and I bought all of them and I opened one day like one of the crappiest ones it had like a coffee stain on it it was like you know and

Uh and it was awesome I think uh what did who did we get we got um Campanella ah great card yeah and um and I got hooked on it but so anyway yes and I’ve opened some 70s boxes I’ve never opened a 69 box or 60s box um or 50s but I only

Have a couple um but I’ve opened 75 mini three or four of them I submitted every single card in 75 mini I got zero tens wow so I was like all right this is I’m not gonna open these anymore and then I opened a 73 box and a 74 box same same

Thing no 10 I was like all right you know yeah quality control I mean that just show shows why they’re value you know why they have so much value because you yeah you can open a brand new pack today that’s never seen the light of day since 1973 or whatever you’re like Yep

They’re all miscut yeah I don’t actually I don’t mind miscut cards a lot because it that’s how they made it that way it’s not like they you know not intentionally necessarily but uh I can live with to me registration is the most important thing on a card if the picture doesn’t look

Right and it’s not in focus and no snow and that kind of thing that’s the focus of the card anyway is the image of the player right so to me that’s where I gravitate who doesn’t love what I want all my cards to be greatly all that

Stuff right but at the same time you go okay I get this beautiful card sharp corners and it’s a little offc Center out of the factory out of the pack that way I can find myself yeah living with that sometimes um yeah sorry I get with you I’m totally with you

Cering doesn’t bother me as much like when I’m pulling cards for me like 75 mini like to me it’s color and and you know I mean first of all that set it’s like the most colorful set out there right um and fish eyes on that set are

Really bad right I pulled I pulled a brad I’ll never forget I thought it was a 10 centering everything and it had a fishee to the right of was top right corner and I I was looking it over I was like I thought it was and this is way

Before I bought we bought collectors in PSA and I I wasn’t as astute at you know knowing all the imperfections and spotting them and I submitted it and got an eight and I was devastated but you know it was and I got it reviewed at the national and like they pointed it out

Like ah you know it was such a bummer that’s you know there are common issues with certain years right that that are well known in the Hobby and you know you guys don’t really I guess I’ll ask the question question is that taken into consideration we don’t curve cards you

Know based on their like another example with 75 is like the paper was this recycled paper that tops used that year I’m sure you yeah familiar and like you get these little bumps and Rises and some of that paper right and yes that’s super common with 75 but you know the

Standard of card grading like that’s an imperfection so um you know but because that’s you know part of the stock of 75 doesn’t mean we’re not we’re going to ignore it um 51 Bowman wax stains on dang near every card you know it’s just kind of is what it is uh I actually

Agree with not bending the standards just because you of a known let’s just call it corporate product defect right yeah that you don’t like hey a card is a 10 or nine or whatever grade if it meets these standards and if it doesn’t it just it isn’t you know period paragraph So

Uh all right I got some more hobby qu some more collecting questions for you um when you before collectors and you were just a a dude like the rest of us right um and you would what made you gravitate towards PSA as as your Grading Company of choice

Yeah so actually I have it here this was the first card I ever graded It was bgs 95 yeah Steve Francis C Francis was my uh favorite rookie in 1999 hey Houston great there you go yeah well that’s where we were at the time so Houston Becket basketball like Becket was

Everything uh to to me as a as a because you know they’re in Dallas um and I still have tons of Becket cards to be clear and I I I respect them and you know the brand and Dr Becket and everything um you know for me uh actually it was because of

Baseball vintage baseball when I started buying vintage baseball in 2010 um I was exposed to the set registry uh the PSA set registry and prior to that I’d been building this bgs 95 LeBron rookie set I wanted one of every and I had some really good still great friends who we

Competed for every bgs 95 LeBron rookie in parallel and starting an 03 and still even yesterday I was I buy I traded him I bought a PSA 10 from him because he doesn’t do PSA and I’m you know helping him get some of my Becket ones but um

Yeah 20 years later it’s funny um so anyway I started doing the vintage baseball set registry stuff uh and I didn’t really think PSA knew modern cards I just thought of it as a vintage baseball card grading company just as a basketball mainly basketball collector right up until then um and the set

Registry really opened my eyes and then I discovered on there that there are sets for LeBron and Michael Jordan and but the biggest thing for me which was like 2015 was um which is not an issue with vintage baseball as much is authenticity uh let’s just call them

Like um nuances with 90s basketball which is my arguably probably my most important passion in cards for me I mean like if I had you know if this room was burning down I would take the 54 Aaron with me in the vintage baseball first but you know just become a value

Perspective but you know I get a huge smile on my face when I open a box of 97 tops Chrome for example yeah um and you know there’s a lot of fake cards in the 90s because the values have risen and starting with the Fleer bankruptcy in in

2006 or whenever it was so many sheets and all this stuff got out and again you have these issues with like 70s baseball and 80s but you know fake serial numbers and all the stuff and PSA was the company that really invested a lot into way before we got here uh into bringing

On the right experts and understanding that often forget grade just is the card real and um and I got burned on like two or three big cards that weren’t PSA holders that like I spent for me at the time like 10% of my wealth on that you

Know five minutes later oh it’s fake or trimmed or whatever and so and it just look I’m not saying PSA is perfect by any means but it was just a personal situation where I was like not not you know just that’s the whole point of it

You know is to get it right right and uh and and worst of all you know there wasn’t a buyback um for it uh so I’m I still have them they’re sitting right over here um so anyway that’s my little sob story so I I switched to PSA pretty

Hard in 2015 so well the landscape in the time I’ve been doing graded cards I I was a huge opponent of graded card I thought it was silly yeah then I started doing some Registries and I started going deeper and and to get into more expensive cards and I

Originally my biggest motivation for buying graded cards was the authenticity part of it that aspect and there was a time you remember this is based on the timeline you’ve been telling me there was a time when each of the three big grading companies were known for a

Certain Niche right yeah SGC was mainly pre-war people right the the golden age in baseball 50s 60s that was all PSA and Becket did everything that came out of a p right and Becket was like the the big deal Holyfield in the room for a long

Time in the in the grading you know years have past and that landscape has transformed I think quite a bit it’s been cool to watch and observe that and the reality again I I was so heavily invested into just PSA because that’s a higher pops right so for me in the let’s say

The whenever the was the early 2010s right if I wanted a 54 Bowman Roy Campanella there were just a lot more options available in a PSA slab period paragraph and and so one of the most choices if I went with another Grading Company whether BBG which I just I don’t

Know they’re like tanks right um the slabs I didn’t like them SGC was fine but it was like I didn’t wasn’t as consistent so couldn’t find as many so that was a huge part of it for me but that authenticity piece that you’re talking about one of the questions I got

From one of my buddies as I was prepping for this asking some guys that I respect in the Vintage world like what would you ask him you know talking about my interview with you here my discussion with you and for almost all of us it’s like the authenticity piece matters a

Lot like look numerical grade might be subjective but it’s not subjective is it real or not real with you totally with you yeah and so that’s a binary thing you have to get it right that’s right and I feel like if I buy a PSA slab I’m

Getting again is it Flawless no of course not nothing is when you have the human element involved but I feel like I’m getting a real card when I buy a PSA slab that it’s a true XYZ tops card Bowman card whatever it might be um so I

Appreciate that what do yeah what steps do you guys I’m sorry to interrupt you uh what do you guys do how what is the process as much as you can divulge to me yeah of going Yep this is a real 52 tops card like first and foremost at the base

Level yeah yeah yeah there’s so much uh and first thing I’ll say you know we have a grade guarantee and the biggest uh or I’d say the most black and white aspect of the grade guarantee is authenticity which means if the card ends it being fake and we graded it as

Long as you’re not the original smitter We Buy it back at market value and I think we’ve spent multiple millions of dollars this year buying cards back um just this calendar year and wa sorry you said something there a caveat that I want to not just

Gloss over he said as long as you weren’t the original submitter and I didn’t know that rule but yeah yeah if I submit a card let’s say I go buy a raw card at a show yeah and I’m like yeah it looks good smells right you know all the

Things and I submit it and it comes and it and you grade it and then I find out later it’s fake I don’t get my money I’m just curious that’s no no no yeah because you’re not a victim right you bought you were the one who submitted

The card okay I gotta yeah because it’s basically trying to exclude those because we had had people who try and what’s the right word like gain the guarantee where like you know prior to they would like knowingly submit fake or you know cards and then hey you know you

Need to buy this back we’re like hey well you’re the one who submitted it you know um and so that that’s but it’s it’s the victim you know if you if you bought it on eBay like yeah like you’re you know you’re you’re truly out of that

Money it’s you know that’s when it applies but and it’s already slab you can’t put it under the same right uh unless you crack it and then you’ve yeah really screwed yourself right so but by the way just be clear like very few people are the original smitter at this

Point you know these sure so it’s like it that doesn’t really come in that often but it’s it sometimes does in the 90s stuff because that stuff’s still being discovered but um well I threw you off your game there no I remember the question yeah so we have basically

Experts in all these different categories so we have a vintage team we’ve got a Pokemon team we’ve got a 990s basketball team and it start and more and it starts with our experts like at the end of the day they’re paid uh to be experts and to get it right starting

With authenticity binary yes or no and we have a plethora of institutional knowledge both in their heads but more importantly written down where uh you know when a card comes in we actually do uh run it through a series of I would say like our research team or grading

Team and our V1 team so so three teams are looking at it and we have raw images of accurate you know of real cards that we’ve confirmed like golden data set and on the screen it has those cards there so if for whatever reason someone’s not paying attention whatever there are

Alerts that say Hey look for this look for that and we are constantly building that database that content as we learn because we see new fakes and and all that all the time and we have a whole grading alerts team that is basically keeping up to date with what we’re

Seeing and it just in case you know our human grater doesn’t you know recognize something the systems there as a safety net to to Really protect and one thing that we’ve launched uh maybe a month ago now which is super cool is actually AI testing for counterfeits we’re not doing it for

Grading um people have asked me that on Twitter we’re not AI grading cards uh you know set numerically but we are using AI for is the card real or not and uh uh we back tested it against our cards where we have images of them which is not forever unfortunately dates back

Only about two years since we’ve been taking images of graded cards that we grade and we caught 250 cards that we should have failed but unfortunately passed that are out there in the wild and we have since deactivated those C numbers and are hoping that whoever currently owns them contacts us and

Allows us to buy them back um first we’ll make sure that the system got it right of of course because you know the system no software is 100% but now we have this basically you know computer safety net even further so it’s not just content but it’s also a proactive hey

This card you know the system flags um you know the team logos off uh you know whatever it is you know and uh and that’s that’s pretty cool so yeah it’s it’s pretty complicated like I said it’s the most black and white thing like if you can’t get auth authenticity right

What the hell are you doing right right um that’s that’s where a lot of our attention goes for sure I I don’t know if I speak for the whole vintage world out there I’m sure I don’t but my opinion on that is I’m glad to see the Mir the especially on the authenticity

Part because like you said you got to get that right the the marriage of technology and the human element to go okay if it passes the smell test for lack of a better word um human wise and the AI says yeah it’s good what else can you do I mean at the

End of the day you’re like okay we’ve done everything we can possibly do the mechanics of that are interesting to think about how a computer would determine it could I mean it could go down to the pixel right I mean it can go not not you know the printing process like

Literally print dot print dot by print dot so it can be a significantly more accurate than a human can probably be so that’s I actually think that’s a welcome I would go yes keep doing that that’s a great and it’s not something we W like people shouldn’t even care about that

You know the point I mean like you know when they get their card back all that matters is when they’re buying the card or they’re submitting a card that it’s right how you get to that answer is our job frankly behind the curtain right as I joke pre yeah and that’s that’s fine

You know you want to know that it’s been put through the test like it’s been like hey man this has been we’re really sure this is a real card right and well again our grade guarantee like if we get it wrong we’re buying it back so right it’s

Cheaper for us to to do the R&D you know and get it right the first time so very cool uh yeah that was a huge thing talking about authenticity um because again as a vintage guy I bought car I started with PSA because I loved it now

I want to get into the registry because yeah just like you the registry is cracked cocaine okay yeah for me it for card for me too and once I went down that rabbit hole I enjoyed it on on multiple levels and I guess this is kind of like unwelcome feedback I don’t know

But I love the obviously the Simplicity of the checklist right okay you have a checklist right yeah as collectors we’re all completionists and like okay I want to do this checklist because I like all the cards in it or whatever and so then there’s so many different thousands and

Tens of thousands of registries you can do and and the user has an opportunity to create a CH like hey I want to set with the greatest players from this team in this era and and you guys will do that you know if and the fact that we

Feel like we The Collector feel like we have some say in that I guess is is is pretty cool do you worry about that you exclusivity of the registry that makes it so powerful right now and the hobby being usurped down the road by anyone else else yeah I mean look I

I we uh the only the paranoid survive right like we we we think about um every other Grading Company but also ones that don’t exist but not in an vacuum way where it’s like what are they doing we focus on the collector um and what they want first

And look I’ll be honest the set registry has been underinvested in by us for years way before we got here too but even since and like it’s still like I my R CTO is so mad I’m sure because like every day I’m like set Registries down

You know like you know oh can’t add my orders to my my sets you know trying you know that takes forever I’m sure you do this like when you’re adding the certain numbers you click add it’s like a solid 30 seconds like there’s stability issues Galore in that thing it’s scary to

Imagine this it’s still being run off of a server in a closet um and so we are rebuilding it um first and foremost think of it like a house like we’re starting with the foundation next to it we’re not going to tear the house down yet we’re building a

Foundation next door and then we’re going to start from the ground up you can’t renovate a bathroom in a crappy house with bad plumbing and bad everything right so we’re rebuilding set registry next door and then we’re going to Port over the furniture like all the

Sets and the content uh once it’s on a stable found Foundation that we that won’t crash and then we’re going to do Renovations like for example um the set register needs to be much more visual you know we get that a lot you know with regards to inclusion of images of the

Cards helping people discover sets is really tough um you have to know what you want to collect really to go there it’s really only conducive if you’re an expert which isn’t great um for example we get a lot of requests for better value tracking portfolio tracking I

Don’t really do this but a lot of people use it as their like stock market like Schwab you know they load up the set register inventory and they what are my cards worth you know they want more insight into that um better set creation tools like right now you do set requests

You have to have five matching CTS you have to send it a wonderful woman named cassetta Robbins manually creates the sets she’s amazing that’s you know I feel bad for her she is a backlog we actually took the the option to set request down because she has so many

Request so we have to come up with a more automated way to be like oh I want to collect whatever you know the Lar bird basic top set and then if it doesn’t exist it just automatically creates now wouldn’t have the waiting and the ranks and everything but um you

Know or the ratings but I mean that’s something that you in theory could automate so we’ve got a lot to build on the set registry but it’s You know despite all of its issues it uh it it continues to grow we have over 10,000 people every day log in and manage a set

Um which is crazy to think about um the set registry awards at the national were awesome we’re going to have it be even better in Cleveland um you know with special PR like it’s the see the the some of the sets that people have pulled off is

Pretty cool um that’s the best part impressive impressive is not even a word that incredible yeah like some of the the the one that stands out to me was the uh the hockey sets uh from last year um anyway uh one thing I was going to mention the set registry another thing

We get asked for a lot um is the uh inclusion of uh other grading companies is something we’ve you know we’ve thought about like have you know be able to add SGC which we’re we’re considering U but you can kind of do that but you

Know we we we want it to be a lesser rank you know because we we didn’t grade the card but um yeah it’s it’s some really cool stuff that we’ve got planned I’ve I’ve long advocated for as much as I love the set registry a universal type set registry where you know

You can do that it I think it have to be done independently of the of the card grading company uh but let me ask you this because I’m I’m also a huge autograph guy and Hall of Fame autographs and I use the registry for that is there any talk about you know I

Have to switch sides I have to go over to the PSA DNA side right and it’s and it’s a little more clunky than the than the PSA side it feels like totally yeah and you know it’s like I is there a point where that’s going to start they’re

Going to talk to each other better and it’ll be a more cohesive system yeah we have an issue right now where like the DNA CT numbers are overlapping with PSA C numbers um recently and it’s really annoying for for everyone um yeah I mean

We we yes we have so many things that we have on our list to fix and build and and that’s unfortunately not number one two or three set registry is one of those the online submission Center is one of those which is really cool I don’t know if you saw we just launched

Like you have you have these example images now when you’re choosing what car to submit yeah and then fixing pop reports is actually the number third one number three one um because like search is broken right now like if you want to search for vintage it works but for like

A modern card you it literally won’t even like you search 2012 prism it’ll return like 1997 upper deck like it doesn’t make any sense um so we’re we’re fixing even though those sets exist in the pop so yeah those yes is is the answer but not you know I wish it could

Be sooner we just don’t have enough people to fix it everything at once so well this is the next question is totally self-serving I I submit way more items through PSA DNA for authentication grading all that and the fact that the I go to the PSA and I’m submitting cards

And it’s super easy right boom bo boom I I still have to fill out a bloody form I know I know that that’s probably a top that’s a top 10 thing for us for sure like it’s on the list we’re gonna get to

It um oh the guy who runs PSA DNA for us is name is Steve Stant who’s great with Kevin Keon our lead authenticator and that is absolutely number one on their list for us for us meaning the tech team product team and it’s just yeah again

Like we got to fix that registry first like I can’t take more emails of people like I have more people yelling at me for that for that than I do the PSA DNA uh online submission Center you know fair enough fair enough I get you I mean you every company has to prioritize

Things there just so much resources so much time in a day right to to do stuff but uh that’s just something near and dear to me I it back of uh yeah about 80 cards I’m about to send a tell you I’m not I’m not this is not a this is you

Know it just needs to be said a lot of our submits to PSA DNA actually not using this as an excuse again but like if we introduced the online Center they they’d actually prefer paper they’re they’re so old school so we did some surveys of some of these folks and

They’re like actually the paper’s fine we’re like oh okay um at least make the form where you can fit what you’re typing the description box is is too yeah I know like wait a second how am I supposed to anyway I’ve been there too I know yeah put that in the suggestion box

Right there yeah yeah all right I’m gonna show you two cards and I want to talk about them okay uh this is a 1940 playball Chuck Klein yeah okay and a six and then a 1940 playball onus swag nice two these don’t look right like this one looks sorry the Klein mired

Nice frosted Edge right and then I’ve got my cellophane myar sandwich sandwich bag that the card is in yeah those are called myar sheets yeah I know they are I’m I’m just teasing what why the difference and why can’t that just you hold hold them up again real quick side

Yeah so the clein’s the way way I think a lot of us theost I much prefer that yeah right versus I was just looking at the sizing so usually we put the sheets on cards that aren’t perfectly fit inside the rails but that the Wagner

Looks like it does it does yeah so I’m not fully sure usually though we put them in there for one of two reasons one to prevent sliding again when the rails don’t fit and the other reason if it’s really high value and we’re worried for some reason of of U of it scratching

Against the plastic which can happen if the card is not perfectly flat um it’s one of those two reasons but look I mean our new holder we have some really cool holders coming out that’s one something we’ve been spending a lot of time on thankfully you don’t need software

Engineers to work on new holders um we’ve got some really cool holders coming for those uh for for like think of them as like um non- two andf by three andf cards like G’s playballs 75 minis all the uh tobacco cards uh pre-war stuff and they’re basically

Leverage a custom insert where what we do is is we take a picture of the card when it comes in and by the time the card’s finished grading we’ve actually 3D printed the holder for that the insert the internal like the outside’s the same this the dimensions everything

The frosting but the the inside rails are custom cut to the exact size of that card oh that’s pretty cool I have a lot of cards to send in for yeah and that’s that’s so basically I it was something I pushed hard for is like I I have 75

Minis that are in where the rails are like the in the 52 holders and they you know and it’s because the card was slightly oversized you know and it can’t fit within the mini holder um we have 50 some odd different holders and we basically screw it we’re just going to

Have it custom print one every time you know instead of keeping thousands of 50 different holders and making the sealer decide which one it’s just it’s too complicated um so yeah yeah I got a 71 tops yesterday in a with I I like your term rails with the rails for a

Obviously a 52 53 right over proba because the car was slightly big right and but it just looks aesthetically it’s annoying I mean it doesn’t could agree more I like uniformity like I have uh you know I have sets around me here that like some the slightly thicker

Cards like they’re maybe 40 point card yeah like I’ll have half of them will be in a in a regular holder half will be and it drives me crazy you know I like the same thing I have the same imagine the team when I get one of those back

You know like um and so we have a lot of stuff coming on consistency ofering um as well like we have computer screens now that show like the sealers you really have to leave it up to them like you don’t want them jamming an oversized card into a holder right they have

Complete discretion currently and that’s fine they should but you know with this Custom Concept the system really should it should be foolproof like there shouldn’t be in any inconsistency um like some some sealers are are more conservative than others and that is you know like if you had I always ask like

When did you sub the two different ones like was that the same order no but I used Lighthouse holders just for just to at least I was in the right generation of holder you know um no there if it wasn’t the same order then two different

People seal it most likely so right um and that and again it’s our team is very conservative generally like we don’t want we prioritize card safety overall and you know over Aesthetics for sure right and so that’s I’m sure that’s what it was but yeah like I said we’ve got

Some really cool stuff coming there that’s awesome yeah well I have two final hobby related questions just to ask you and then I’ll I’ll let you go the first one is if if you’re I get so many people man I’m just back in the hobby that watch the show or I’ve been

In you know obviously pandemic was a huge uh opportunity for people to join in the Hobby and so many of them ask me you know where to start and I would ask ask you if you’re talking to a a new collector and let’s say they like vintage baseball let’s say that’s their

That’s their jam what would you what advice would you give that person um yeah ignore values and like all the hype stuff like start low like start low grade um you know collect the set you like you know I always tell people like what’s your birth year what’s what’s the

Card you remember you know as a kid like what’s your favorite who’s your favorite player and like trying to narrow down to one set I try and push people down the set collecting route just because I found that to be the most rewarding um i’ although like newer

Folks I’ve been pushing them more on the players too just like I have a friend who really loves Jackie Robinson she’s trying to do a PSA 2 you know like you know PSA 5 of a 48 Leaf is pretty damn expensive so you know she’s doing like

PSA 2 through five of you know 58 through um 50 I think she’s doing Bowman as as well um I’m trying to remember 48 through 56 or his yeah yeah no no I know but I’m trying to remember if she’s doing Bowman as well or just tops I know

She’s doing the 48 Leaf 49 Bowman I’m trying to remember if she’s doing 50 yeah anyway so she’s doing basically every Jackie card in a two through six and yeah I think that’s really cool to do Jackie um a player set because it’s only like 10 or 15

Cards um it’s a good one and yeah like that’s where I would start is you know pick your favorite player pick your favorite set start relatively low grade you get comfortable with it do the set registry and you know as you gain more confidence in like spotting pricing like

I always say like download card ladder or vcp or whatever you you know don’t I mean becket’s great PSA Magazine’s great but like for the price guide you really want to use one of the the you know real time software tools um you know and as you get more comfortable with like okay

Like not every PSA 6 is the same you know what do you care about you care about centering you know like you got to te teach about qualifiers like you know I had a friend of day so excited about a PSA 9 grety but it turned out it was a

90 I’m like oh like yeah you know great you got a six congrats um or you know so I I don’t know I think that’s where I would probably you know tell folks it’s so funny because the hardest thing is to what what should I collect Mike I don’t

Know what do you like right and it’s yeah don’t listen to me don’t you know just do what you like I can give you some advice because there’s so much Nuance like you said knowing what an OC qualifier is for example that that’s a Nuance that’s kind

Of universal you need to know what that is yeah yeah they figure it out you know they you learn by mistakes usually right oh my I have plenty of them in my closet right over here and you have them behind you you said I definitely don’t tell people to grade initially like grading

To me is like I like I would love you to as the head of collectors but grading is is one more step you know yeah that’s a different level to start like usually if you have a vintage card and it’s not graded there’s usually a reason that’s

Right yeah at this point right at this point yeah like there’s plenty like you know we saw Ross set earlier this week that was or last week 58 I think I posted on Instagram like 58 tops is beautiful but like no no no card was higher than maybe a seven but like card

You know like bunch of fives and like beautiful like and never seen the L of day in 50 years like you know so they they they are out there but you know you’re going to get taken start start with raw H sorry start with graded cards if you’re new yeah buying buying but

Don’t submit them yourself because don’t buy raw and submit them until you’re much more knowledgeable seasoned yes for sure um first before we get to the last question I gotta see the Aaron the rookie oh yeah yeah yeah Aaron rookie yeah one of my favorite cards is the

Aaron rookie yeah it was one of the first big first big card I bought was a garri 33 gouty yeah and then the Aaron rookie was like okay before I show you that here’s the Box 5 Four Tops okay you might as well have one of those sure unopen 36 packs freaking awesome

That’s nickel packs too I think yeah yeah and I think they have the 54 variation on the front I’m not 100% I remember I saw it open at the national with with okay before that here’s the Ernie Banks oh in a 10 all right yeah Ernie

Banks 10 54 tops and here’s the Aaron 54 tops 10 ah and you know people like you know they’re rough cut and you know you you I posted on Twitter or something they’re like that’s a four you know because they see the like look at the chipping but

Like you know it reminds me of like the op with like the freight at like there’s nothing more beautiful than a rough cut 54 or like a 71 OPG Nolan or or 79 grety with the you know with the frayed edges like it’s yeah there’s nothing more

Fresh than those if they’re straight you know you got issues yeah that that would worry you more than the than the rough Edge that so that’s a beauty and the the great thing I want people to hear as I say this to Nat is I have a PSA 3 in

That card and I love it yeah and great yeah totally the whole spectrum is finding that balance between what you can afford what you like yeah and all cards are gorgeous and we’d all love tens and that’s so cool you have one well just so you know like when I bought

This card I haven’t really ever said this like I spent which is reckless this is before I had was it before I had kids I think I spent half of the money I had on this card okay so like and I was not I just got married like you know that’s

How like my point is is like I you know I wanted it so badly that I was just like screw it like you know like I’m basically all in right that could have gone badly like had I bought a nine you know two years ago it’d be worth half as

Much much but yeah I could could not agree more pick the grade you want have conviction about it if you know if it goes down 90% it shouldn’t matter um you know it it should be it should yeah you should get a smile on your face when you

Look at it but yeah that’s that’s the whole point and I think that that is true for most vintage guys they just wanted a nice example of the card of whatever doesn’t matter three four criteria matters to them right um last question what are you most excited about

In terms of the F Hobby’s been through this craziness right the last few years what do you what excites you about the future of the Hobby in general um yeah I mean look I think the Hobby’s in a in a in a weird place right now I

Think the you know you got these issues with like there’s well there’s two there’s like the hobbi really two different things you have the the true kind of vintage collectors like and there’s I guess the third which is the modern like 90s early 2000s then you

Have these Ultra Modern and I think we have a little bit of an issue where the ultra modern’s really become more of a gambling speculative The Breakers the the um you know prospecting on rookies and like $100,000 for Mac Jones one of one and you know just nothing makes sense

Anymore on the Ultra Modern and and you know we’re seeing a forest fire a bit you know clearing out some of the potentially necessary bad things and and you know meaning like secondary prices have really come down on these Ultra Modern cards and I think it’s it’s

Actually an exciting thing and that it’s like a force fire you know the the green shoots or whatever are going to start popping up and they have been you know with set collecting and and 90s and vintage and like the real stable Foundation of this hobby is basically

Still there and is coming back stronger um despite all of this these Shenanigans with you know over production and multiple oneof ones and you know players signing cards that actually their brother signed them like there’s just so much crap that drives me crazy and I again I just don’t

Collect it and you know that’s but look it’s a huge part of our business at PSA I’m not saying it’s people shouldn’t collect it it’s just not for me um and you know that’s fine um but yeah the exciting part is the the how stable the Vintage and and um set collecting has

Really been I mean look at some of the prices on like Heritage and golden and memory lane and Rea and you know like full sets even like people selling full sets I mean you’re seeing really solid prices um yeah I tried to get a 33 Delong garri in the last Rea auction and

I mean I was probably the under bidder and I was just like yeah I’m good here like if it goes for more than that congrats to the guy who got it or girl who got it you know uh it’s it’s got they they the good stuff is still selling for good prices

That’s I guess what I’m saying I got blown out of the water on that Manel white white Letters by the way um if you remember the nine that sold like I do yeah like I have a man on white letter in a five it’s awesome card and I paid

Like 300 bucks for it 200 bucks for it yeah like and it’s way more now but it freaking aw card there’s just cards that are that are kind of universal right and I think people sticking with those uh are smart but again don’t listen to us I mean we’re we’re giving you some

Yeah buy what you want you know yeah yeah again I think that if you remove the gambling aspect I think you you see true collecting I don’t think the gambling thing is true collecting I think it’s what it is I think it’s like a it’s it’s appealing to the sports

Betters and and again I’m not saying it’s wrong it’s just it’s not collecting it’s it’s something different and um it’s fine you know but uh you know it’s just yeah like I’d rather have dinner with a bunch of you know true collectors than a bunch of uh you know they’ve

Probably even never even seen their cards um you know what I mean they certainly don’t know who the players are or no I’m sure they do they’re frantically checking box scores I mean I say this like you know I bought a bunch of LeBron cards and hoped that he had a

Great career and so I you know I’m somewhat two-faced by saying all this but I I’ve been turned off by the the um how how much off the deep end it’s gone with you know people have lost a lot of money and and you know it’s America you

Make your own decision right but um you know you can’t only blame yourself when you lose 100 Grand on a ma Jones one of one that you bought but um the fact that that’s propagated and pushed you know is is is not helpful in my opinion so well

Nat you’ve been more than generous with your time uh I really appreciate you coming on and just yeah having a little having a little fun talking about cards thanks for showing your sharing your thoughts I really appreciate it of course thanks for having me all right

Guys uh I’m back so I’ll start I’ve got some great episodes lined up uh conversations with some some great hobbyists we’ll talk to you guys soon merry Christmas everybody and keep collecting